Is it cheesy to have a highly intelligent PC wizard with the fabricate spell and ranks in Craft (gemcutting) to essentially triple the value of every gem they collect/buy?
I've actually seen this skill in published sources before, and the only possible use I can think of for it is to take an existing gem, and make a better gem out of it.
Say, I have a raw gem valued at 50gp. I use that as my 1/3 gp resources and spend a little time making my craft check. If I succeed, I end up with a gem or gems worth a total of 150gp (since it is now properly cut and beautiful). A bad cut (a bad check) might cost me some of these raw materials.
However, since I am a highly intelligent wizard, this never happens. Furthermore, since I have fabricate, this takes no time at all.
Does this strike you as cheesy? Or perfectly logical and within the rules/expectations of the game?
Say the party cleric obtains enough diamond to cast resurrection, or I obtain a large diamond with enough value for a wish spell. I could potentially get three resurrections or wishes out of it thanks to my personal resource investment (skill ranks, intelligence, and spell choice).
Again, cheesy or not?
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It's used to take a raw gem and make a valuable gem out of it. I would assume that gems you find as loot are generally already cut (and hence their value). Unless you're finding uncut gems in mines, it would be fairly useless IMO.
I would assume that any gem you buy for the purposes of a spell is either (A) already cut and its value is based on that, or (B) is not cut, but it's the quantity that matters for the spell and not the quality. I would assume the former as it implies that the low-quality gems have been weeded out. It's safe to assume that the spells want the good stuff.
EDIT: I suppose it WOULD let you get away with spending less on material components for spells, but it would do so as the cost of lots of time, the availability of which the DM can control easily.
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I have always thought that the gems listed in treasure are already cut and their values are based off of that. I would double-check the values of uncut and unpolished stones and redo your math.
I had a similar plan for a PC I never ran. Buying unrefined black onyx, using craft (gemcutting) to refine it so animating the dead was a third of the cost.
All I ever got from the GM regarding this was a nonchalant shrug.
The rules rarely state what kind of gem it is (cut or uncut). I suppose source would make a difference. Find it on the ground? Probably uncut. Got it out of a noble's purse? Likely cut.
Is it reasonable to think that you could take a cut gem, and with a high enough skill check make it into a BETTER cut gem?
Cutting is a matter of skill in the cutter, right?
Adventurers adventure... if you want to just fabricate high end gems with magic you should hand your character over to the GM to be an NPC.
--Vrock hound
If I was cutting them normally (something that would take FOREVER) then I would agree.
The things is though, adventurers come across gems and valuable stones ALL THE TIME. With fabricate, I can cut them in no time at all, even while adventuring.
The idea is to triple gem wealth by spending a few character resources.
Down time would be different. I would take all my existing gems and cut them. I would then use all my gold from adventuring, buy more gems, and cut and resell them.
The only thing that would take up time is selling them, which wouldn't be too hard as gems are highly sought after by pretty much everyone. It would be easy to trade them for adventuring gear as well (in fact, I would imagine this is commonly done already as no one really wants to carry 50,000gp to the local mage's guild for that +5 sword).
Also, I'm operating under the assumption that you could only do this once to any given gem. For example, you could not take a 50gp gem, turn it into a 150gp gem, then repeat the process to get a 450gp gem.
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Adventurers adventure... if you want to just fabricate high end gems with magic you should hand your character over to the GM to be an NPC.
--Vrock hound
If I was cutting them normally (something that would take FOREVER) then I would agree.
The things is though, adventurers come across gems and valuable stones ALL THE TIME. With fabricate, I can cut them in no time at all, even while adventuring.
The idea is to triple gem wealth by spending a few character resources.
Down time would be different. I would take all my existing gems and cut them. I would then use all my gold from adventuring, buy more gems, and cut and resell them.
The only thing that would take up time is selling them, which wouldn't be too hard as gems are highly sought after by pretty much everyone. It would be easy to trade them for adventuring gear as well (in fact, I would imagine this is commonly done already as no one really wants to carry 50,000gp to the local mage's guild for that +5 sword).
Also, I'm operating under the assumption that you could only do this once to any given gem. For example, you could not take a 50gp gem, turn it into a 150gp gem, then repeat the process to get a 450gp gem.
I would operate under the assumption that a gem cannot be re-cut, and that even if it could it would stay the same (or very similar) value.
I would also assume that if anything lists "gems", it means cut gems unless either explicitly noted otherwise or the circumstances of their discovery prohibit them being cut.
A player could buy uncut gems, cut them, then sell them, but wouldn't be making as much as you imply. The main issues being supply of material, and demand for cut gems. Both would be very limited.
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My daughter's wizard sort of has craft(gem cutting). We call it gem carving, and she uses it for carving softer stones like amber into flowers or animals. Sometimes I put largish pieces of low value gems like tourmaline or turquoise in treasure specifically for crafting. I'd say she needed different tools and a proper workshop to cut hard gems like diamonds, I wouldn't let her do so as an evening pastime in camp as she does now. In practice, it's pretty much all flavour, mostly I remind her to use it from time to time.
I find it useful though. She can strike up conversations with gem merchants when selling them, and when she rolled a 3 (I think it was) on perception, she was delighted when I said "The stone in that pillar's absolutely fascinating..."
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Definitely possible by RAW, however the RAI implications are dubious.
From a realistic perspective if this was a standard tactic of mid-level wizards then gem markets would be flooded with well-cut gems thereby causing the price of cut gems to only be marginally higher than that of raw ones. So...if it was my game it would be possible but not particularly profitable.
I wouldn't go with gems but gold. At caster level 9 fabricate can effect up to 540,000gp as your raw materials. (not that you're likely to have that much at hand - well at least not to start with).
Throw in a Crafter's Fortune spell and your high int bonus (+5) and your minimum result in any craft skill is 11 - which means you'll never ruin your raw materials if you stick to 'High Quality' or lower. Start making art, jewellery and statues to sell.
You can always switch what you're crafting to avoid flooding the market. Leadership will also help for having a swarm of minions to sell it all. (Is there a pathfinder equivalent of the Marketplace Eternal from Forgotten Realms?)Making multiple items under the settlement purchase limit saves a lot of hassle.
And I don't buy the 'PC's only adventure' line as it flies in the face of PC's having craft and profession skills - or item creation feats. Or campaigns with significant downtime - like Kingmaker. What's more this is not, unlike the fighter with Craft(weaponsmith), taking all day, it's taking moments. Using some of the profit to purchase some Ring Gates is probably worthwhile so you can leave your Cohort and Followers to it whilst you're in the dungeon.
As for the problem wealth creates with the jealous guilds/dragons etc then I think we should give the Int 20 wizard some credit for being a bit subtle about it. A few Magic Aura spells do wonders for downplaying a characters wealth.
The profit from your items can be in GP and so you get to repeat with a bigger pile of cash.
Oh and yes - cheesy as hell.
The Fabricate spell can make money. Probably lots of it, when applied properly.
Welcome to the world of high-level NPCs. You may leave your adventurers' license at the door.
;)
Where are the DCs/Rules for Gemcutting?
Personally I like the idea of a Portable Hole filled with a 152,681,220gp block of solid gold - you know, as a 'conversation piece'.
;)
Anyhow I'll just fabricate a new adventurers licence. Hmm, pity forgeries run off linguistics not Craft (Forgery) - though I don't see why you couldn't take Forgery as a craft.
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Not it most deinfately is not cheesy. It's allowed by RAW. Requires a 5TH level spell and at least imo 5 Ranks in a skill to be effective. So yeah if it requires me to spend or at least have access or rent someone who has a spell and skill ranks damn straight I want some sort of benefit in my favor at the end.
Once again another worst case theorycrafting scenario for something that is hardly broken let alone cheesy. It's one thing if Fabricate allowed you to make gems out of thin air already cut then yes imo it would be too powerful and be qualified as cheesy. What is it with D&D and some DMS who refuse to give players nice things.
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Adventurers adventure... if you want to just fabricate high end gems with magic you should hand your character over to the GM to be an NPC.
--Vrock hound
So they're not allowed to have other professions they like to do?
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So they're not allowed to have other professions they like to do?
Apparently not because from the looks of it high level characters are nit supposed to be able to do anything or have nice things. As well the Craft and Profession skills are not supposed to be of any real use beyond putting points in them. I will be blunt if those two skills are houseruled as giving me no benefit I'm either not wasting points in them or putting 1 or 2 points just in case.
Cheesy in my mind means RAW legal but would unbalance the game to such a sever level it would diminish the enjoyment of the GM, the other players and in many cases the player using the cheese.
It's not high level characters can't have nice things it's that high level characters can't have ALL the nice things and maintain game balance.
Near-unlimited wealth is not a 'nice thing'.
Ultimate Equipment has some insight on this issue.
When randomly determining gems, roll on the appropriate grade chart. To determine the gemstone’s total value, roll the added value and add it to the base value. If you would prefer the average value instead, simply double the base value. In addition, if the roll to determine the type of gem is an odd roll, the gem is unworked, which means its value is equal to half the total value of a normal gem of that type, but it can made into a worked gem with a successful Craft (jewelry) check of the appropriate DC based on the gem’s grade (the gem counts as the raw material cost, so the crafter need not pay that amount). On an even roll, the gem is worked, can’t be improved upon, and is worth the listed cost.
So if your GM is using the random rolls from UE, you can expect that half the gems you find are uncut, you also find that working them only doubles, not triples, their value, and you can't further improve a cut stone. And it is Craft(jewelry) not Craft(gemcutting).
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Is it cheesy to have a highly intelligent PC wizard with the fabricate spell and ranks in Craft (gemcutting) to essentially triple the value of every gem they collect/buy?
I've actually seen this skill in published sources before, and the only possible use I can think of for it is to take an existing gem, and make a better gem out of it.
Say, I have a raw gem valued at 50gp. I use that as my 1/3 gp resources and spend a little time making my craft check. If I succeed, I end up with a gem or gems worth a total of 150gp (since it is now properly cut and beautiful). A bad cut (a bad check) might cost me some of these raw materials.
However, since I am a highly intelligent wizard, this never happens. Furthermore, since I have fabricate, this takes no time at all.
Does this strike you as cheesy? Or perfectly logical and within the rules/expectations of the game?
Say the party cleric obtains enough diamond to cast resurrection, or I obtain a large diamond with enough value for a wish spell. I could potentially get three resurrections or wishes out of it thanks to my personal resource investment (skill ranks, intelligence, and spell choice).
Again, cheesy or not?
as a spell caster you had BETTER take profession/craft gem cutting. i take it every time i play a spell caster after my gm caught me with RP.
i was trying to buy 25gp onyx gems. anyone who knows magic knows why you want that exact cut, to rais the dead. so the gm was able to cock block me from buying the onyx i needed to rais my army, because the local jewler was also a spellcaster with a LG alignment and he was against raising the dead.
ever since then i take gem cutter as my craft/profession when playing a spell caster.
now for how you're using a raw material to create a better quality item, that cant work. because you are trying to take a gem that already has a value set to it. the rules for crafting states "Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost." so if you stumble across a gem worth x amount you cant "spend" that item for the raw materials. you actually have to use the gp value in gold coins.
*correction* fabricate allows you to craft material components, i thought it didnt allow it, but i was wrong.
As a GM if a player wanted to pull this off, I'd be fine with it. However it would factor into their wealth by level too, so it would not, in the end, give them much of a boost in gold. In other words, if they are manufacturing wealth on their own using rules exploits to do so, then they will find less wealth of other types to compensate so I can maintain the game balance that is based on wealth.
So in that sense it's a role playing choice. If you want to role play a jeweler, then by all means do so. But don't expect to get a huge wealth advantage over the party barbarian who just scoops gold into a sack.
Wouldn't they still have to find the gems first? It's not like they can just go to a cave, pick an area like it's Minecraft and TADA!, diamonds.
Wouldn't they still have to find the gems first? It's not like they can just go to a cave, pick an area like it's Minecraft and TADA!, diamonds.
Well, it depends on how you read the RAW. First of all by RAW some gems you find will be uncut. Secondly diamond "mines" are frequently simply open areas of ground where uncut diamonds literally are just laying in the dirt waiting to be picked up. So what is the DC of finding diamonds in a diamond-rich deposit? Presumably enough skill points in perception or some divination spells will help you find them. If you want your character to become a diamond miner, then a gemcutter.
Keeping in mind that until 9th level, every point you put into Craft: Gemcutting is otherwise useless to you (unless you want to earn a weekly income in downtime). Granted Wizards typically have skill points to burn, but putting those points somewhere else will help you survive to 9th level in the first place.
I don't think the idea or process is cheesy at all and would absolutely allow a player who wants to do that do it. However as a GM I would ask and trust the player to not be cheesy with it and basically sit there all day every day just doing that for wealth.
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There's a bit of difference between disallowing RD cheese manipulation or outright rulebreaking than "not allowing anyone to have nice things"
If it's RAW and I don't abuse it than why not. What's the point of taking those skills in the first place. Yes they are fun to roleplay yet imo need some sort of return for investing points in them.
The question here perhaps should be. Are you looking to play Papers and Paychecks instead of Pathfinder? If so, get your DM to acommodate you. Otherwise I'm assuming you're asking about the latter game, the one that's about heroic fiction and not recreating the exciting life of wage slavery?
So if I decide to make active use of craft and profession skills I'm not playing Pathfinder. Really it's come to that. In the games I play and run it's not assumed that players spend every waking moment being adventurers. One assumes they do something else in their downtime. For those with Craft or Profession skills it's to use and roleplay using them. Otherwise what's the point of wasting skill points. for that occasinal situational role. Not to mention if I or others want to play Papers and Paychecks who are you to tell us that what we are doing is wrong. I get the impression you don't more power to you. That in no way makes anyone interested in doing so not playing the "correct" version of Pathfinder
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It's not high level characters can't have nice things it's that high level characters can't have ALL the nice things and maintain game balance.
Here the thing though at high levels it's expected that all characters want and to a certain ezxtent have nice things. The amount of money they get. The favors owned. The land grants they receive etc. I'm not saying Montey Haul rich yet unless one is a very stingy DMit comes with the territiory imo.
Near-unlimited wealth is not a 'nice thing'.
No but at high levels it usually happens anyway. I plan to run a Rise of The Runelords campaign very soon. Reading the modules and the treasure they can get barring any layer crafting items they get alot of money and treasure. I'm halfway to the fourth module and the players are getting four digit monetary treasure and not just one kind either. Imo higer level means more resources and access to resources of all kinds.
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I don't think the idea or process is cheesy at all and would absolutely allow a player who wants to do that do it. However as a GM I would ask and trust the player to not be cheesy with it and basically sit there all day every day just doing that for wealth.
The problem being is that to get a decent amount of money from craft/profession skills a player has to devote some downtime to do so. It's not like one good roll and a bunch of money lands in the players lap. That's the thing imo some posters in this thread forgot. If many playersi n the grouo have crafting skills and use them they aint' going anywhere anytime soon imo. And the money you get from crafting skills is nowher near what you can find in a dungeon or treasure in terms of loot.
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Two can play at that game. If I'm not allowing you to take every single cheese maneuver you can think of? I must be a stick in the mud GM?
No offence your the one who accused me and anyone else who wants to actively use Craft/Profession skills as not playing Pathdinder correctly. You get called out on that and now your offended sorry you don't get to have it both ways. If a player does not want to use a craft/profession skill I'm fine with that as both a DM and player. If the reverse happens and I'm a DM and a plyer wants to use the same skills to benefit from them I'm fine with that to. As long as the player is follwoing RAW and not abusing it. I'm just tired of the doomsday theorycrafting scenarios some posters post daily and being told I'm being a cheesy player because I'm following RAW. Call me that if I'm trying to get around RAW. Not for following it.
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I did not accuse you of anything. I simply pointed out that Raving Dork who has nothing better to do than start up troll posts about cheesing the system left a few details out on his latest get rich quick scheme.Cutting gems by itself isn't a major profit maker unless you're starting out with uncut gems you either find by mining or obtain cheaply through other means. Cutting an already cut 50 gp gem isn't going to magically make it a 100 or higher gem.
No harm done. And really to get a huge benefit imo requires more money to be invested into finding, mining and then carting off the gems back to a suitable spot with the right equipment. That's why while it can be abused in the wrong hands. I'ts not cheesy because the benefit imo is not automatic. A spot has to be found. Any NPCs in the area either removed or a agreement has to be made. The gems are worth the trouble of mining in the first place. To many "ifs" for what maybe little or no gain. Funny thing is it's easier and imo more profitable to go adventuring.
I think the word your looking for is a catastrophizing style thread.
I don't think the idea or process is cheesy at all and would absolutely allow a player who wants to do that do it. However as a GM I would ask and trust the player to not be cheesy with it and basically sit there all day every day just doing that for wealth.The problem being is that to get a decent amount of money from craft/profession skills a player has to devote some downtime to do so. It's not like one good roll and a bunch of money lands in the players lap. That's the thing imo some posters in this thread forgot. If many playersi n the grouo have crafting skills and use them they aint' going anywhere anytime soon imo. And the money you get from crafting skills is nowher near what you can find in a dungeon or treasure in terms of loot.
Oh I understand that and it's all fine and good. Players taking a long trip somewhere or have to stay in town for a few weeks for the next plot device to take root? Perfect downtime for them to work on their crafts. In the middle of a quest or adventure and suddenly the wizard decides he wants to more cash and wants the group to wait for him? Nope not happening.
I actually am awaiting on Ultimate Campaign so I can use this and the guild rules to have the players play characters that are up and coming thugs that want to hit it big and create their own alliance of thieves and assassin. Something like this would really be another part of the life their characters would be living.
Hmm...reading my PDF copy of Ultimate Equipment, raw gems are doubled in value when cut (pg 388, "Generating Gems"). That doesn't make using Fabricate not profitable, just less so.
Regardless, most PCs could trundle off to an actual gemcutter and have him cut the gem to increase its value. It will take longer, but the value added will far exceed what you'll have to pay the gemcutter.
Example: Gemcutter can take 10 and get DC25. He's cutting a gem with DC25, so he makes 25x25 = 625sp (62.5gp) progress each week. He's being paid 1/2 half his craft check, or 12.5gp per week. Net profit of 50gp per week hiring a gemcutter. Assuming the group gets downtime, having a Wizard use his own skill and Fabricate earns them 25% more on uncut gems than normal.
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I don't think it's cheesy. Using Fabricate and Craft to finish up rough gems and sell them at a better price is a fair way of turning a profit. No dodgy rules needed, no massacring NPCs either. It's almost honest work, except it goes faster.
At level 9, characters have lots of ways to make money. Charge a fee for using Plant Growth to enhance harvests. Collect feudal taxes or else Cloudkill. Rob level 3 commoners using level 5 magic to cover your tracks; frame some hapless bandits. Summon Mount and use Alter Self to sell them without it linking back to you. At level 11, sell the Wall of Iron. Like I said, Fabricate-gem cutting is almost honest by comparison.
At a certain point, money becomes a bad motivation to adventure, because sane people would just invest the big heap of money they already have in some mercantile or feudal scheme and live off the rent. Money is just a convenient way of keeping the civilians from complaining to much and acquiring spell components without fuss. The real motivations may be things like saving the world or discovering eldritch secrets.
As a GM you shouldn't worry about the particular scheme the PCs come up with to make money, but about how much money they make and what they want to do with it. If they're running ahead of WBL, go a bit easier on the treasure hoards and/or make them burn through consumables faster.
This gem trick seems pretty reasonable. Don't place too many uncut stones in hoards, and think about settlement limits on the amount of rough stones for sale; you can ensure that his steady income doesn't become an unreasonable income. But I'd be okay with the steady income, as a GM.
I'd be even more okay with high PC income if they also blow a lot of money on non-power expenses; fancy clothing and parties. As long as they stay around WBL in mechanically useful gear, it's fine that their extracurricular expenses are high and in balance with extra income.
Not all of us who play casters have that burning aching need to cover the land with shambling corpses.as a spell caster you had BETTER take profession/craft gem cutting. i take it every time i play a spell caster after my gm caught me with RP.
i was trying to buy 25gp onyx gems. anyone who knows magic knows why you want that exact cut, to rais the dead. so the gm was able to cock block me from buying the onyx i needed to rais my army, because the local jewler was also a spellcaster with a LG alignment and he was against raising the dead.
Bah! You non-evil caster types!
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Not all of us who play casters have that burning aching need to cover the land with shambling corpses.
i guess you havent seen the material components for a lot of spells since you think my example is just for animate dead. true res, wish, restoration ect... so keep thinking that you dont need gem cutting when playing with an indifferent gm.
Animate Dead is one of the lowest level spells that you need gems for, and also my personal favourite.
And it is Craft(jewelry) not Craft(gemcutting).
Craft (gemcutting) to cut an uncut gem and Craft (jewelry) to take the cut gem along with other materials to make nice jewelry.
Knowing how to cut a gem doesn't mean you know how to make an attractive brooch that someone will pay good gold for. Knowing how to smith silver into an attractive brooch doesn't mean you know how to cut the gem.
I found this one of the most intersting threads I've read in a while...in my campagins, economic "issues" like this come in to play quite a bit; even in a fantasy world, adventurers who stumble across wealth like nothing more than to keep it, not consume it. The best way to keep it is to establish an income stream.
What group of high level adventurers wouldn't want to live the good-life during their downtime? Thus castles, business, lavish parties, enntertaining powerful nobles, guildheads, and nearby dragons become part of the game, and also leads to good plot hooks.
For every economic "cheese" issue that comes up, it's only "cheesy" if the GM can't figure out how to make it work...thus you deal with issues of over-supply, ecnomic unbalance, unavailability of uncut gems in this case, or availability of buyers. Teleport magic and interplanar travel can negate that to a point...but only until the point of the GM's creativity limit. OK, so my mage crafts some "cheese" (magic items, gems, rare spell components, jewelry, whatever) and goes to the City of Brass to sell it...well, just because she got there doesn't mean she automatically finds a buyer, and doesn't mean she didn't run a-foul of local import laws and end up in prison either, peeve-off a local guild trying to corner a market, or end up bringing an item that legend says is a harbringer of doom.
Point is, a good GM can take the cheese out of cheesy.