paizo.com Recent Posts in Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?paizo.com Recent Posts in Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?2012-09-05T20:09:12Z2012-09-05T20:09:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?caithhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#952012-11-29T03:11:05Z2012-11-29T03:11:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trikk wrote:</div><blockquote> The real question is if I can take one sword and use it as raw material to craft three swords. </blockquote><p>I think this reply really captures the spirit of the thread.Trikk wrote:The real question is if I can take one sword and use it as raw material to craft three swords.
I think this reply really captures the spirit of the thread.caith2012-11-29T03:11:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?vuronhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#942012-11-29T03:07:46Z2012-11-29T03:07:46Z<p>D&D economics doesn't make sense, more news at 11.</p>
<p>Fabricate, Wall of Iron, Gate, Teleport Circles, Planar Binding, etc can all be used to wreck the average D&D economy.</p>
<p>Basically you have to decide what level of "realism" you are trying to simulate and at a certain point in time just trust your players not to break the system.</p>
<p>If people want to play a medieval economy simulator there are tons better games out there than D&D.</p>D&D economics doesn't make sense, more news at 11.
Fabricate, Wall of Iron, Gate, Teleport Circles, Planar Binding, etc can all be used to wreck the average D&D economy.
Basically you have to decide what level of "realism" you are trying to simulate and at a certain point in time just trust your players not to break the system.
If people want to play a medieval economy simulator there are tons better games out there than D&D.vuron2012-11-29T03:07:46ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?beej67https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#932012-11-29T02:48:10Z2012-11-29T02:48:10Z<p>I don't see how this is so cheesy. Is not like you run into a godzillion gems as you adventure. You save a lot more with a crafting feat than you'd earn with this trick.</p>I don't see how this is so cheesy. Is not like you run into a godzillion gems as you adventure. You save a lot more with a crafting feat than you'd earn with this trick.beej672012-11-29T02:48:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Gnomezrulehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#922012-11-29T01:53:19Z2012-11-29T01:53:19Z<p>Reading through this I was thinking of a real world situation that is possibly enlightening here. Natural gems are worth more if they have no flaws or cracks. The larger the gem the more likely it is to have flaws or cracks. So it is common for people to uses different acryilics that fill in and bind with the gems they can turn a large flawed stone into one without flaws and now cut facets in a much larger stone than they could normally. Now if your caught using these fillers the stone drops dramatically. They actually have dogs that smell the stones that are trained to recognized the fillers.</p>Reading through this I was thinking of a real world situation that is possibly enlightening here. Natural gems are worth more if they have no flaws or cracks. The larger the gem the more likely it is to have flaws or cracks. So it is common for people to uses different acryilics that fill in and bind with the gems they can turn a large flawed stone into one without flaws and now cut facets in a much larger stone than they could normally. Now if your caught using these fillers the stone drops...Gnomezrule2012-11-29T01:53:19ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Shadowdwellerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#912012-11-29T00:37:36Z2012-11-29T00:37:36Z<p>While, yes, magic has the capacity to easily distort game rules regarding wealth, it should be noted that manufacture is but one side of any business let alone economy. The market price for many types of goods may be high, but demand and purchase rates may be so low that it might take months or years to find a buyer. Other aspects to consider: Storage, transportation, thieves, how rulers or existing trade organizations respond to competition, the extent to which potential buyers trust an individual also easily capable of casting illusions that make worthless junk seem like fabulous treasure.</p>While, yes, magic has the capacity to easily distort game rules regarding wealth, it should be noted that manufacture is but one side of any business let alone economy. The market price for many types of goods may be high, but demand and purchase rates may be so low that it might take months or years to find a buyer. Other aspects to consider: Storage, transportation, thieves, how rulers or existing trade organizations respond to competition, the extent to which potential buyers trust an...Shadowdweller2012-11-29T00:37:36ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#902013-07-26T23:04:02Z2012-11-28T11:24:12Z<p>At high levels, in core, there is not a whole lot to do with overly excessive wealth. The GP limits in your core population centers are 16,000 gp in a metropolis, plus whatever is randomly generated (see Magic Items, Core Rulebook) unless your GM is using some sort of variant rules. Humorously, around the time where such money making opportunities arise the ability to abuse excessive wealth quickly falls within the system as you are forced to look into other avenues of gain like adventuring, planar travel, convincing NPCs to help you create stuff out of the ordinary, or crafting it yourself.</p>
<p>At this point, it's trivially easy to do a lot of very potent things with magic. <i>Fabricate</i> and any trade good (not just gemcutting) is a major money maker. It just cannot avoid being so. Pick any trade good, such as any art object (sculpting, painting, weaving, jeweling, or even weaponsmithing for artistic weaponry) and you can triple your investment for only a matter of time. Since <i>fabricate</i> removes the time process it becomes only a matter of investment. For example, if you decide you want to sculpt something like a very valuable statuette out of obsidian, you just need some obsidian equivalent to 1/3rd of the value of the final item. Fabricate. Done. It's that simple.</p>
<p>A wizard can produce a castle out of nothing in an extremely short period of time. Just as an example, a wizard can create a sentient construct with skills in Preform (string instruments). Cast <i>wall of stone</i> repeatedly (no material component, produces a crapton of non-magical non-dispellable non-vanishing 100% real stone) and hand his construct a <i>lyre of building</i> and have a castle built within a week or less. Out of thin air. On a hilltop, or a mountain, or underground if he likes. He can then use <i>wall of iron</i> to spread sheets of metal along the inner walls, so that common scrying spells won't penetrate it and bother him. You can produce tons of iron for about 50 gp with <i>wall of iron</i>. All you need to make some re-enforced walls on pocket change for such a wizard.</p>
<p>But at these levels money doesn't speak as readily as actions do. So it's either downtime to craft all your own gear or go out and find better gear than is in your local magic mart. Money does not magically produce a +3 or better weapon when a +2 weapon is the most expensive that you can reliably find in a metropolis. So it's back to crafting everything yourself, which is entirely reasonable in a sandbox world where you're not being pulled by a hook in the nose, but isn't always an option or something you want to do.</p>
<p>Due to the innate limits on what is readily available to actually spend GP on, it seems to me that there is a hidden balance here. About the time where you have so much money (or can have so much money) that it's silly, money just doesn't cut it alone. At that point, gold becomes more of a plot device. A tool for bribery, or for building a guild, or funding an army, or starting a city. All those +3 phat lewts aren't available in your local Magics R Us, so put it towards RP purposes and find/craft better gear yourself.</p>At high levels, in core, there is not a whole lot to do with overly excessive wealth. The GP limits in your core population centers are 16,000 gp in a metropolis, plus whatever is randomly generated (see Magic Items, Core Rulebook) unless your GM is using some sort of variant rules. Humorously, around the time where such money making opportunities arise the ability to abuse excessive wealth quickly falls within the system as you are forced to look into other avenues of gain like adventuring,...Ashiel2012-11-28T11:24:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?tennengarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#892012-11-28T08:11:17Z2012-11-28T08:11:17Z<p>And to answer Ascalaphus: our gm also shares a feeling that theres just too dang much gold in pathfinder... Buying a sword? pay some gold? Room for the night? pay some gold? Leather armor? Show me some gold! </p>
<p>Our GM is right...</p>
<p>Its raining effin gold here. And I understand... Staff of wonder is like what 200000gp? at 50 coins per pound when you go to buy your staff of wonder all you need to do is march your 2 SOLID TONS OF GOLD into the market... You know... A 1953 buick made of solid gold... Just you know... Roll it into town square... No big deal....</p>
<p>What the hell? Yeah... Here's the thing. I totally understand why we equate a copper piece with a penny. That totally makes sense... But then a gold piece is worth a dollar? Really? My job pays me 4 pounds of gold per day? I WISH my job paid me 4 pounds of gold per day...</p>
<p>So what we've done is we just pretend that any time the book says gp what they really mean is cp. Its a typo. Unless we're trying to buy something made of actual moneymetal... 30 pounds of gold for full plate? I dont think so. Try 1500 copper (15 gold pieces now)... Now gold is starting to seem like it's worth something for a change. On the other hand you want a silver dagger? Thats 40cp for the dagger and 50 silver pieces for the pound of silver that its made out of.</p>
<p>My gm said 'well encumbrance is supposed to be a wealth limiting thing and you're taking it away... My response is that my coinpurse had 7 platinum pieces in it... All of my worldly wealth. (an old system equivalent to 140 pounds of gold) and some limey cutpurse just stole it. Hows that for gms controlling the economy? He's got nothing to worry about and we're really liking how the new system feels, despite not really changing the actual economy of the game at all.</p>
<p>It doesnt really change the ratio of prices and loot so from a player standpoint it changes practically nothing, but from a 'flavor of the world' standpoint its no longer a monsoon of gold in every purse and behind every door. Pretty stylish.</p>And to answer Ascalaphus: our gm also shares a feeling that theres just too dang much gold in pathfinder... Buying a sword? pay some gold? Room for the night? pay some gold? Leather armor? Show me some gold!
Our GM is right...
Its raining effin gold here. And I understand... Staff of wonder is like what 200000gp? at 50 coins per pound when you go to buy your staff of wonder all you need to do is march your 2 SOLID TONS OF GOLD into the market... You know... A 1953 buick made of solid...tennengar2012-11-28T08:11:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?doc the greyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#882012-11-28T08:09:32Z2012-11-28T08:09:32Z<p>I don't know if anyones mentioned this but I know in ultimate equipment they have extra rules built in so that found gem's have a 50% chance of being uncut and worth half the rolled value. Thing is a player with craft gemcutting can make a roll to cut it back into shape and get full value out of it.</p>I don't know if anyones mentioned this but I know in ultimate equipment they have extra rules built in so that found gem's have a 50% chance of being uncut and worth half the rolled value. Thing is a player with craft gemcutting can make a roll to cut it back into shape and get full value out of it.doc the grey2012-11-28T08:09:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?tennengarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#872012-11-28T07:56:29Z2012-11-28T07:56:29Z<p>Well I'll tell ya at least as far as crafting magic items goes... So we're all in rise of the runelords, hangin out in sandpoint... earned a few bucks here and there fightin gobbies and rescuing some townies... typical hero stuff... so we've been asked to hang out a few days in town... keep up a presence for the locals and all that. Right?</p>
<p>So if i have craft wondrous item. A feat i chose instead of some sort of 'increase my blasty deathy potential' feat... Now I head on down to the tanner and purchase masterwork leather tools... I can only make 1000 worth of 'sale price progress' per day and even if i make something with a sale price of 1000, theres a small chance that someone in town will be able to afford it because sandpoint has an 800 individual item limit, and heck. with an 800 per item limit theres a good chance i can only score 800 worth of crafting materials and if i make a 1600 item its too exotic for anyone in town to afford.</p>
<p>So lets keep it down to 400 (380 for me since i'm a hedge magicians apprentice) in materials to make an 800 item... we'll call it oh, "belt of tumbling"... CL1+5, toss in an extra 5 to make it in half the time so i'm only crafting for 4 hours instead of 8... take 10 on the craft check, add 3 from spellcraft as a class skill, little int bonus... and poof. got me a belt that's cheap enough that i should have no trouble finding a buyer in town.</p>
<p>Yeah. I could do this once a day and create the tumbling belt industry in sandpoint for only 4 hours a day... but i'm only making 420 per day... which sounds nice, except you know... i gotta pay for spell research and spellbooks... researching 3 2nd level spells takes 9 hours so if i have one day where we're not being besieged by gobbos then i'm lucky enough to get in 9 hours of study and 4 hours of crafting and spend half my crafting profits on spell research... Good luck getting a day like that...</p>
<p>now lets say i'm in a bigger town where they can afford more than 800gp items... lets say im a high falootin' 16th level crafter. I can bend the power of reality itself to my will and i live in the best economy on the continent but none of it matters. I'm still only able to make 1000 sale price profits worth of progress on my crafting per day. Doesnt matter if i'm making protection rings or attribute books (which take 77 days each to write by the way) I'm still going to buy 1000 of material and sell it for 2000 when i'm done per day. Now I know that sounds like a lot. 1000gp per day in profit... Getting the WBL will take me how many days uninterrupted? Yeah. Crafting is not game breaking profits because how many days will your gm give you to just sit on your tuffet without something trying to burn the city down. It's still totally under their control and the way they control it isnt by shutting it down.</p>
<p>Its by keeping you busy enough to keep you away from your workbench. Come on you lazy GM's. Stop trying to kill the rule. Use your tools. Keep this town lively enough so they don't have time to craft... Or realize that there's no way i'm going to have 410 uninterrupted crafting days between now and level 17 to hit WBL and get over your stingy self ya dutchbaeg.</p>Well I'll tell ya at least as far as crafting magic items goes... So we're all in rise of the runelords, hangin out in sandpoint... earned a few bucks here and there fightin gobbies and rescuing some townies... typical hero stuff... so we've been asked to hang out a few days in town... keep up a presence for the locals and all that. Right?
So if i have craft wondrous item. A feat i chose instead of some sort of 'increase my blasty deathy potential' feat... Now I head on down to the tanner...tennengar2012-11-28T07:56:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Yosarianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#862012-09-05T20:58:29Z2012-09-05T20:58:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote><p> As a GM if a player wanted to pull this off, I'd be fine with it. However it would factor into their wealth by level too, so it would not, in the end, give them much of a boost in gold. In other words, if they are manufacturing wealth on their own using rules exploits to do so, then they will find less wealth of other types to compensate so I can maintain the game balance that is based on wealth.
</p>
</blockquote><p>That seems kind of unfair, actually.
<p>I don't think this quite works the way he says it is, since you're probably not finding uncut gems lying around in treasure chests, but in general, if a player wants to spend his skill slots (or feat slots) on crafting, or professions, or whatever, instead of having skills that will be beneficial during the adventure, and then wants to spend his time between adventures making money instead of crafting stuff for himself, then he should end up with more money. </p>
<p>It's a trade off. Player 1 gets skill slots in Languages. Player 2 gets skill slots in professions or crafting, makes money, and then later has to spend money on scrolls of comprehend language. It's a fair trade off; giving player 2 less gold then he "should" get by GM fiat just punishes him unfairly.</p>Adamantine Dragon wrote:As a GM if a player wanted to pull this off, I'd be fine with it. However it would factor into their wealth by level too, so it would not, in the end, give them much of a boost in gold. In other words, if they are manufacturing wealth on their own using rules exploits to do so, then they will find less wealth of other types to compensate so I can maintain the game balance that is based on wealth.
That seems kind of unfair, actually. I don't think this quite works the...Yosarian2012-09-05T20:58:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?MagiMasterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#852012-09-05T19:35:08Z2012-09-05T19:35:08Z<p>Grain into Gold: <a href="http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=BEN3610" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=BEN3610</a></p>Grain into Gold: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=BEN3610MagiMaster2012-09-05T19:35:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#842012-09-05T08:55:35Z2012-09-05T08:55:35Z<p>That would also be a good moment to really assess the value of a gold piece. Seriously, by today's gold prices, a gold piece (at the listed weight), is over $400, and buys you 50ft of hemp rope...</p>That would also be a good moment to really assess the value of a gold piece. Seriously, by today's gold prices, a gold piece (at the listed weight), is over $400, and buys you 50ft of hemp rope...Ascalaphus2012-09-05T08:55:35ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Caedwyrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#832012-09-05T01:32:29Z2012-09-05T01:32:29Z<p>Issues like these are one of the reasons I feel that the design of the next version of the game should start out with determining what type of economic model the game will be based around, and then doing all the costing decisions from there. Clearly there's a desire for item crafting, both magical and mundane, and the intersection of player equipment costs and other wealth issues frequently conflicts with the underlying assumptions in the 3.x system (and most systems before). This area of rules tends to rely heavily on houserules, gentleman's agreements, or GM fiat/controls to keep the game from falling apart. </p>
<p>Figuring out a working economic system is a challenge for certain, since even if you switch to alternate currencies at higher levels (planar diamonds, favors, wishes, kingdoms, etc), there is still going to be some desire to exchange one form of currency for another at one point or another.</p>Issues like these are one of the reasons I feel that the design of the next version of the game should start out with determining what type of economic model the game will be based around, and then doing all the costing decisions from there. Clearly there's a desire for item crafting, both magical and mundane, and the intersection of player equipment costs and other wealth issues frequently conflicts with the underlying assumptions in the 3.x system (and most systems before). This area of...Caedwyr2012-09-05T01:32:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Black_Lanternhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#822012-09-04T21:47:33Z2012-09-04T21:47:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nobody Important wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">UEpg.388 wrote:</div><blockquote>And it is Craft(jewelry) not Craft(gemcutting). </blockquote><p>Craft (gemcutting) to cut an uncut gem and Craft (jewelry) to take the cut gem along with other materials to make nice jewelry.
<p>Knowing how to cut a gem doesn't mean you know how to make an attractive brooch that someone will pay good gold for. Knowing how to smith silver into an attractive brooch doesn't mean you know how to cut the gem. </blockquote><p>So in your games you require two skills to make bows? Carving and stringing? God forbid you make them take wood classes.Nobody Important wrote:UEpg.388 wrote:And it is Craft(jewelry) not Craft(gemcutting).
Craft (gemcutting) to cut an uncut gem and Craft (jewelry) to take the cut gem along with other materials to make nice jewelry. Knowing how to cut a gem doesn't mean you know how to make an attractive brooch that someone will pay good gold for. Knowing how to smith silver into an attractive brooch doesn't mean you know how to cut the gem. So in your games you require two skills to make bows? Carving and...Black_Lantern2012-09-04T21:47:33ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?3.5 Loyalisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#812012-08-29T13:33:12Z2012-08-29T13:33:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Is it cheesy to have a highly intelligent PC wizard with the <i>fabricate</i> spell and ranks in Craft (gemcutting) to essentially triple the value of every gem they collect/buy?</p>
<p>I've actually seen this skill in published sources before, and the only possible use I can think of for it is to take an existing gem, and make a better gem out of it.</p>
<p>Say, I have a raw gem valued at 50gp. I use that as my 1/3 gp resources and spend a little time making my craft check. If I succeed, I end up with a gem or gems worth a total of 150gp (since it is now properly cut and beautiful). A bad cut (a bad check) might cost me some of these raw materials.</p>
<p>However, since I am a highly intelligent wizard, this never happens. Furthermore, since I have <i>fabricate</i>, this takes no time at all.</p>
<p>Does this strike you as cheesy? Or perfectly logical and within the rules/expectations of the game?</p>
<p>Say the party cleric obtains enough diamond to cast <i>resurrection</i>, or I obtain a large diamond with enough value for a <i>wish</i> spell. I could potentially get three resurrections or wishes out of it thanks to my personal resource investment (skill ranks, intelligence, and spell choice).</p>
<p>Again, cheesy or not? </blockquote><p>Reminds me of the old forge coins rules. Perhaps a bit cheesy, especially if you try to turn one gem into many, but a bad cut should cost more than some materials, you ruin the gem, it isn't a sword you can melt down and re-forge.Ravingdork wrote:Is it cheesy to have a highly intelligent PC wizard with the fabricate spell and ranks in Craft (gemcutting) to essentially triple the value of every gem they collect/buy?
I've actually seen this skill in published sources before, and the only possible use I can think of for it is to take an existing gem, and make a better gem out of it.
Say, I have a raw gem valued at 50gp. I use that as my 1/3 gp resources and spend a little time making my craft check. If I succeed, I end...3.5 Loyalist2012-08-29T13:33:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#802012-12-02T20:38:59Z2012-08-29T11:35:21Z<p>I think this is a specific case of a general thing; namely that (especially at higher levels), doing something that's reasonable IC, if executed with some rules mastery and taken to larger scale, can break the game.</p>
<p>And you can't make a complex game with many rules to enable tactical options, without that happening. The more complexity, the more ways to break it.</p>
<p>So you need to agree with the players as adults that you can be smart and profit from it, but not to the degree that you break the game. That's something people need to understand OOC; communicate.</p>
<p>The DM can push back a bit in-game, for example with guild taxes and such, but trying to make the player sorry for even trying isn't fair either; it's passive-aggressive and childish. If you do something clever, you can profit from it. Within reasonable limits.</p>I think this is a specific case of a general thing; namely that (especially at higher levels), doing something that's reasonable IC, if executed with some rules mastery and taken to larger scale, can break the game.
And you can't make a complex game with many rules to enable tactical options, without that happening. The more complexity, the more ways to break it.
So you need to agree with the players as adults that you can be smart and profit from it, but not to the degree that you break...Ascalaphus2012-08-29T11:35:21ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Alitanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#792012-08-29T04:44:04Z2012-08-29T04:44:04Z<p>On the issue of Fabricate...</p>
<p>I typically have
<br />
•craft/glassblowing
<br />
•craft/woodworking
<br />
•craft/weaving
<br />
when I'm playing a wizard. Sometimes /shipwright, though that's campaign-dependent.</p>
<p>Anyway.</p>
<p>Using Fabricate with those craft skills means I never have to go without my comfy chair, my stylish robes, or that ever-needful alchemists' lab.</p>
<p>Using it with craft/jeweler (which covers gemcutting and whitesmith work) still depends on decent ranks and good rolls, if you want to make anything of more value than that inherent in the materials.</p>
<p>The problem here isn't with Fabricate: it's with too much spell access on top of the per-level gains. If you were only getting a FEW spells aside from your level advancement research, choosing Fabricate would be a rough choice... and deserves some reward.</p>
<p>In my opinion.</p>
<p>But then, I tossed the WBL "rules" a long time ago, and have never been able to KEEP vast wealth.</p>
<p>I spend it, it gets stolen, I forget where I put it or just can't get TO where I put it...</p>On the issue of Fabricate...
I typically have
*craft/glassblowing
*craft/woodworking
*craft/weaving
when I'm playing a wizard. Sometimes /shipwright, though that's campaign-dependent.
Anyway.
Using Fabricate with those craft skills means I never have to go without my comfy chair, my stylish robes, or that ever-needful alchemists' lab.
Using it with craft/jeweler (which covers gemcutting and whitesmith work) still depends on decent ranks and good rolls, if you want to make anything of more...Alitan2012-08-29T04:44:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#782012-08-28T16:27:38Z2012-08-28T16:27:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">VoodooHoodoo wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I actaully dug up this old thread because it is very relevant to a character I have lined up to play, so not just theorycraft.</p>
<p>I think Fabricate-wealth has to be considered in 2 separate types - </p>
<p>1) The guy who is 10-20% above the wealth curve after he's blown a lot on parties. Quite rightly - who cares. </p>
<p>2) They guy who has 10-20 times the wealth he 'should' have. Reducing treasure just hurts the rest of the party (remember he doesn't have to share his fabricate wealth with them). Guilds and taxes are fine - but why not just pay them? When you've near infinite wealth giving 10% to the guilds and 10% to the lords is annoying but is only a small speed bump rather than a brake. Unless you're going to set the tax/fees so high no one would be able to stay in non-magical business. </blockquote><p>Case 2 you have some options.
<p>If it amuses you, take this as the root for the next storyline, and somehow turn the collapse of the economy (or his attempts to do so) into an adventure. I mean, think about how NPCs would react when they see something like this happening. Some will embrace the new world order, others will try to prevent it. If you enjoy that sort of thing, there's an adventure there.</p>
<p>On the other hand, you can take the player aside and explain to him that although what he's doing is technically legal, it's not good for the game; you don't want ProductionQuest to hijack the campaign.
<br />
• If the core party motivation is wealth acquisition, tell him he should either retire his PC (since he no longer has a rational reason to adventure, already having enough wealth), or stop doing this.
<br />
• If the party is actually motivated by something else (like stopping demon lords from destroying the world), tell him that you'll tolerate being a bit more wealthy than normal WBL allows, but that he needs to restrain himself. Just because you can break the game doesn't mean you should. It's okay to have a bit more wealth, but agree on a limit; "You can earn up to an additional 10% of the WBL you should gain between current and next level through Fabricate, but no more. So for current level, you can generate an additional XXXX gp."</p>
<p>I advise just having an open discussion with the player about it. He's come up with something clever, you don't have to punish him for that. No passive-aggressive stuff either. But if it's not working with the game, negotiate some way to deal with it. He can keep something nice as a reward for being clever, but not so much that it's a problem.</p>VoodooHoodoo wrote:I actaully dug up this old thread because it is very relevant to a character I have lined up to play, so not just theorycraft.
I think Fabricate-wealth has to be considered in 2 separate types -
1) The guy who is 10-20% above the wealth curve after he's blown a lot on parties. Quite rightly - who cares.
2) They guy who has 10-20 times the wealth he 'should' have. Reducing treasure just hurts the rest of the party (remember he doesn't have to share his fabricate wealth...Ascalaphus2012-08-28T16:27:38ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#772012-12-02T20:37:22Z2012-08-28T16:17:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fake Healer wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Raving Dork just posts an obviously inflammatory idea for the masses to look at, which then explodes into a war of "game-breaking....BAN IT!!" and "it's RAW so it's good" posts.
</p>
Then he rarely responds to the thread, only sitting back to watch his puppets dance....dance for the master, puppets.</p>
<p>Stop falling into his verbal pitfalls and search the OP for the trap. </blockquote><p>But it's an interesting question, and it amuses me. So what did I lose by "falling into the trap"?
<p>aaaaanyway, to the "9th level wizard destroying the economy" thing: I say that any level 9 wizard that CAN'T disrupt a premodern nonmagical economy just has to be an absolute tosser.</p>Fake Healer wrote:The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Raving Dork just posts an obviously inflammatory idea for the masses to look at, which then explodes into a war of "game-breaking....BAN IT!!" and "it's RAW so it's good" posts.
Then he rarely responds to the thread, only sitting back to watch his puppets dance....dance for the master, puppets.Stop falling into his verbal pitfalls and search the OP for the trap.
But it's an interesting question, and it amuses me. So what...Ascalaphus2012-08-28T16:17:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ughbashhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#762012-08-28T15:10:20Z2012-08-28T15:10:20Z<p>Yes it is cheesy.</p>
<p>I mentioned this trick about 6 months ago for turning 500k in raw diamonds to 1.5 mil in diamond dust. Which is enough to build a staff of Wish (or a ring of infinite wishes).</p>
<p>Yes it is cheesy.</p>
<p>Yes it is RAW.</p>
<p>No it is NOT RAI.</p>Yes it is cheesy.
I mentioned this trick about 6 months ago for turning 500k in raw diamonds to 1.5 mil in diamond dust. Which is enough to build a staff of Wish (or a ring of infinite wishes).
Yes it is cheesy.
Yes it is RAW.
No it is NOT RAI.Ughbash2012-08-28T15:10:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?VoodooHoodoohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#752012-08-28T13:11:23Z2012-08-28T13:11:23Z<p>I actaully dug up this old thread because it is very relevant to a character I have lined up to play, so not just theorycraft.</p>
<p>I think Fabricate-wealth has to be considered in 2 separate types - </p>
<p>1) The guy who is 10-20% above the wealth curve after he's blown a lot on parties. Quite rightly - who cares. </p>
<p>2) They guy who has 10-20 times the wealth he 'should' have. Reducing treasure just hurts the rest of the party (remember he doesn't have to share his fabricate wealth with them). Guilds and taxes are fine - but why not just pay them? When you've near infinite wealth giving 10% to the guilds and 10% to the lords is annoying but is only a small speed bump rather than a brake. Unless you're going to set the tax/fees so high no one would be able to stay in non-magical business.</p>I actaully dug up this old thread because it is very relevant to a character I have lined up to play, so not just theorycraft.
I think Fabricate-wealth has to be considered in 2 separate types -
1) The guy who is 10-20% above the wealth curve after he's blown a lot on parties. Quite rightly - who cares.
2) They guy who has 10-20 times the wealth he 'should' have. Reducing treasure just hurts the rest of the party (remember he doesn't have to share his fabricate wealth with them). Guilds...VoodooHoodoo2012-08-28T13:11:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?memoraxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#742012-08-27T17:54:43Z2012-08-27T17:54:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> •whistles obliviously• </blockquote><p>Those in profound denial usually do.Ravingdork wrote:*whistles obliviously*
Those in profound denial usually do.memorax2012-08-27T17:54:43ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#732012-08-27T17:45:23Z2012-08-27T17:45:23Z<p>•whistles obliviously•</p>*whistles obliviously*Ravingdork2012-08-27T17:45:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?memoraxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#722012-08-27T12:00:12Z2012-08-27T12:00:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fake Healer wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Raving Dork just posts an obviously inflammatory idea for the masses to look at, which then explodes into a war of "game-breaking....BAN IT!!" and "it's RAW so it's good" posts.
</p>
Then he rarely responds to the thread, only sitting back to watch his puppets dance....dance for the master, puppets.</p>
<p>Stop falling into his verbal pitfalls and search the OP for the trap. </blockquote><p>Very much agreed and seconded.
<p></blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Generally I ask a question, which then spurts an off-topic debate which, being off-topic, cannot possibly be connected to any intent of my own.</p>
<p>In any case, the OP is outdated. The new Ultimate Equipment guide has clearly defined rules for how Craft (gemcutting) works. (Hint: They're nothing like I described in the OP.) </blockquote><p>Until you once again scour the rules and start another doomsday catastrophizing theorycrafting style thread. About a subject that usually your the only one who worries let alone cares about. Theres a reason why your getting a reputation for doing this type of stuff on the boards.Fake Healer wrote:The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Raving Dork just posts an obviously inflammatory idea for the masses to look at, which then explodes into a war of "game-breaking....BAN IT!!" and "it's RAW so it's good" posts.
Then he rarely responds to the thread, only sitting back to watch his puppets dance....dance for the master, puppets.Stop falling into his verbal pitfalls and search the OP for the trap.
Very much agreed and seconded. Ravingdork wrote:Generally I...memorax2012-08-27T12:00:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Craft (gemcutting) cheesy?Nobody Importanthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ndcp&page=2?Craft-cheesy#712012-08-27T06:15:24Z2012-08-27T06:15:24Z<p>If a profit-minded wizard in your party wants to use fabricate as a method off mass-production, again, instead of going back and saying that the sky is falling and the game is over, I challenge you to put your DM hat on. </p>
<p>So a lvl 15 wizards wants to walk into a forest and zappo make a fleet of ships. Who said that that is game breaking? Maybe the local elves, druids, centaurs, gold dragon, green dragon, treats, giant eagles, and even the Gods themselves oppose such an idea. Maybe a rival nation opposes that action and the Kings Royal Assassins Guild summons from the depths of hell itself to stop the wizard of the rival nation.</p>
<p>Mass production causes 99% unemployment due to a wizard mass-producing? Wow, I think 99% of the people might be pretty p'd at some wizard for ruining their economy...and what do p'd off mobs do? Do I smell a wizardly alignment change coming for a wizard whose selfish actions lead to mass poverty, international conflict, or mass-starvation? </p>
<p>Anything a player does to so-called break the game only works with a weak-minded and weak-willed DM.</p>If a profit-minded wizard in your party wants to use fabricate as a method off mass-production, again, instead of going back and saying that the sky is falling and the game is over, I challenge you to put your DM hat on.
So a lvl 15 wizards wants to walk into a forest and zappo make a fleet of ships. Who said that that is game breaking? Maybe the local elves, druids, centaurs, gold dragon, green dragon, treats, giant eagles, and even the Gods themselves oppose such an idea. Maybe a rival...Nobody Important2012-08-27T06:15:24Z