I agree with the 7 comment. It is legal by RAW.
I wonder what kind of game could come out assuming as default that type of rule abuse.
Moreover, at low level, as a DM, I would have a lot of fun to make the PC suffer an hell for all those 7.
If the Player acts like a sociopath, good time for me! I can be a very, very, VERY sadistic DM if challenged. An I would enjoy it a lot.
Everything I would do would be RAW of course. I'm a rule-savvy gentleman :D
Double negative? Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Pretty much.
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I agree with the 7 comment. It is legal by RAW.I wonder what kind of game could come out assuming as default that type of rule abuse.
Moreover, at low level, as a DM, I would have a lot of fun to make the PC suffer an hell for all those 7.
If the Player acts like a sociopath, good time for me! I can be a very, very, VERY sadistic DM if challenged. An I would enjoy it a lot.
Everything I would do would be RAW of course. I'm a rule-savvy gentleman :D
What bad could happen when you try to role play a character with a 7 Charisma and Wisdom?
Not only does no one like you, but your completely oblivious and don't have the strength to get out of a bear hug when the guy you ticked off thanks to your low charisma score sneaks up behind you (you didn't notice, with the minus to perception and) and you have to start making CMD rolls.
What could go wrong?
I agree with the 7 comment. It is legal by RAW.I wonder what kind of game could come out assuming as default that type of rule abuse.
Moreover, at low level, as a DM, I would have a lot of fun to make the PC suffer an hell for all those 7.
If the Player acts like a sociopath, good time for me! I can be a very, very, VERY sadistic DM if challenged. An I would enjoy it a lot.
Everything I would do would be RAW of course. I'm a rule-savvy gentleman :D
The thing is that playstyle is not a factor for these discussions. What is important is whether or not class X can survive, and to what extent. I don't think Mr.Green or most other people would do this in a normal game, but when you know you are not getting any magic items, but have to face the same monsters(as if the items were still there) it kind of forces you to powergame.
I removed a couple posts (and a reply to them.) Do feel free to repost them without the excess condescension.
The most feasible system I've seen for handling this is reducing character wealth by a factor of about half or so, and removing "generic bonus" items (such as rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, amulets of natural armor, stat boost items, etc.).
In exchange, characters are automatically given "character points" that make up the wealth difference and allow the character to "purchase" these generic bonuses as aspects of their characters, with an exchange rate of about 1,000g to the point - for example, a level 12 character, instead of having 108,000g in magic items and equipment, has 54,000g in equipment (including a few notable magic items with history) and 54 "character points" worth of generic bonuses that would normally be granted by the items which have been removed.
No. Sorry, just no. The X-Mas Tree effect is solely limited to magic items. I'm not advocating the removal of levels, being miserly with XP, or even removing magic items. Stat-boosters will still impact skills and non-combat situations. I was seeking advice on how to mimimize the player trap of equating their characters with their gear. Nothing more.
Pfft, it is not. Players who turn to magic items to get stronger (read everybody) will look elsewhere. If it's magic spells, then they'll start playing more clerics, oracles, inquisitors, and bards instead of fighters, rogues, and barbarians. If it's feats, then people will start grabbing all the feats that cover their bases, rather than stuff that lets them do certain cool things regularly.
Likewise, if the sum of your character in-game is determined by your stats, and in turn your +3 mace of disruption, then I want nothing to do with your game. I've had games where players crafted flying ships (not Eberron), wielded +5 holy demonbane greatswords (which the party's cleric and wizard crafted for them), and even decked their mounts out in magical goodies when they could afford to do so. Do you know how much screen-time was given to the magic items?
Well, with the exception of the airship which was piloted by the sorcerer's kobold followers, not much. No, they were the strongest wizards, sorcerers, warriors, and divine champions of the land. They were the ones who saved the dwarven dutchess from Kurlaket the Bleak, and waged a war of freedom against the Arcane Brotherhood, eventually taking the battle to their own tower.
They were not a "+5 holy greatsword of demon-slaying".
EDIT: As to the "lit up like a christmas tree", a bunch of mundane gear + continual flame does that much better, and it's far more fabulous looking.
Until you use arcane sight and see the actual effect is a dim lamppost compared to a fully decked out PC. :)
But its so fabulous dahling! *mimics the voice of lord binky the baffoon from BG1*
Well, the original question is how to minimize the Christmas Tree Effect. I think the best way is for DMs to require players to have characters without three 7's in their stats. Maybe players and DMs can focus on a good story with plausible and playable characters instead of focusing on the numbers behind the game. My games don't have this problem. Never have and never will. Of course my players want to have fun with characters instead of spreadsheets.
Well, the original question is how to minimize the Christmas Tree Effect. I think the best way is for DMs to require players to have characters without three 7's in their stats. Maybe players and DMs can focus on a good story with plausible and playable characters instead of focusing on the numbers behind the game. My games don't have this problem. Never have and never will. Of course my players want to have fun with characters instead of spreadsheets.
Are you familiar with the Stormwind Fallacy?
The quote in the box here sums it up; the rest of the page goes on to talk about Magic and isn't relevant: http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-r edux.html
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Maybe players and DMs can focus on a good story with plausible and playable characters instead of focusing on the numbers behind the game. My games don't have this problem. Never have and never will. Of course my players want to have fun with characters instead of spreadsheets.
Maybe players and DMs can do both. Fun is not limited to one or the other.
Well, the original question is how to minimize the Christmas Tree Effect. I think the best way is for DMs to require players to have characters without three 7's in their stats. Maybe players and DMs can focus on a good story with plausible and playable characters instead of focusing on the numbers behind the game. My games don't have this problem. Never have and never will. Of course my players want to have fun with characters instead of spreadsheets.Are you familiar with the Stormwind Fallacy?
The quote in the box here sums it up; the rest of the page goes on to talk about Magic and isn't relevant: http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-r edux.html
I'm more than familiar with it and I never claimed that people can't do both. My point is if someone thinks there is a problem because they can build characters with three 7's to get more points they are mistaken on what the problem actually is. The way to deal with the Xmass Tree Effect is to play a character and not a spreadsheet. I have no problems with optimizing. I have problems when people can only look at one aspect of the game. If people actually play characters, they won't have problems with the Xmass Tree Effect. The problem only exists when the characters are viewed solely as numbers.
Maybe players and DMs can focus on a good story with plausible and playable characters instead of focusing on the numbers behind the game. My games don't have this problem. Never have and never will. Of course my players want to have fun with characters instead of spreadsheets.Maybe players and DMs can do both. Fun is not limited to one or the other.
I never made that claim. My point is that if someone can only look at the numbers, as Mr Green and a few others have done consistently throughout this thread, then they will have a problem with the XMass Tree Effect.
The solution to the problem is to play the game instead of focusing only on optimization. He asked for a solution to the problem. That's my solution. Stop playing spreadsheets and start playing characters. When people play to win (and that's exactly what is happening when someone comes to the table with a wizard that has three 7's for starting stats), they have more problems than when people play for enjoyment of playing a game with their friends.
Or maybe they can change the game that so deeply relies and is built on top of the effect.
You know.
The game they're playing?
That one called Pathfinder that openly encourages the Christmas Tree Effect?
Just like every other edition of D&D did?
You're bringing up something completely unrelated. It's like if I talked about disliking taking tests in my class and someone jumped in with "Well maybe you should ride a bike to school."
The Chistmass tree effect to some extent can not be helped, as long as we keep requesting new products.
The way i try to limit the game right now is to limit what books are allowed.
Right now that is Pathfinder PHB & Bestiary only.
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Well, if I were to go with the "add to the character not the item idea", where is the list explaining item progression and how many pluses I need to add and when?
I am seriously considering a campaign in which levels 1-6 gain +1 items, 7-12 gain +2 items, and 13-20 gain +3 items. Whereas any +4/+5 items or their equivalents are essentially artifacts.
What numbers do I need to change to keep the system working? Obviously stats/saves/weapon bonus/armor bonus/shield bonus/deflection/natural armor/etc all play a part. I am just looking for the spreadsheet that might have this pertinent information.
In any case, it is easier to adjust the PCs than it is to adjust practically every CR in the book.
Thanks for your help :)
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Name something Conan did that requires being level 10.
The giants and demons were already named (and all without magic items, usually). Conan also beat down what was effectively an iron golem with a magic dagger (The Devil in Iron). Conan EASILY defeated what was arguably the best swordsman in the hyborian world (if you take Robert E. Howard's words exactly as written) and then stole his woman, ship and crew (The Pool of the Black One), Conan mows down 20 charging hyenas with a short bow, all within 2 score yards, before kicking the shiat out of a horde of others, then beating down a ape-demon.(Queen of the Black Coast)
plus, Conan has the best damn quotability in all of fantasy:
"..chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?"
"There's nothing in the universe cold steel won't cut," answered Conan. "I threw my ax at the demon, and he took no hurt, but I might have missed in the dusk, or a branch deflected its flight. I'm not going out of my way looking for devils; but I wouldn't step out of my path to let one go by."
Well, if I were to go with the "add to the character not the item idea", where is the list explaining item progression and how many pluses I need to add and when?
I'm not sure which of many "add to the character" suggestions you are asking about, but I'm going to try the following system in the next AP (Carrion Crown) that I run:
Rather than 1 stat point every 4 levels, I am going to give them 1 stat point every 2 levels (the levels that don't give feats).
I will also eliminate all "+ stat" items from the game.
IMO, this will allow the PCs to grow naturally. If they want to spread their points around, they can - or they can focus in one stat.
I'm all for land and titles...these things aren't cheap either AND you can re-use them in the next campaign when they retire?
Adding player characters from previous campaigns as a fixture in your campaign is neat and feels like there is continuity.
How would you feel if your new character picked pockets and the judge was your previous character in your campaign?
This is what enspired me to look up this thread when I saw this:
X-mas Effect
Am I the only player who's ever flipped through the book and dreamed of the day I'd be able to get X item for my character?
I like them and I want the full boat when it comes to goodies.
(I'll reply despite the undead nature of this thread.)
I don't understand the people that want to get rid of item crafting in the pursuit of stopping the christmas tree effect. If you want magic items to be special, what could be more special than the one you made yourself (or the one your friend made just for you)? I would say that it'd help to make the process just a bit more involved (RP-wise) than stating what you want and then locking yourself in a room for a few weeks.
Edit: Also, this. Reading it reminds me of that scene from One Piece where Zolo (Zoro) is shopping for a new sword. Not explicitly magical, but it's not hard to imagine that scene taking place in a Magic-Sword-Mart.
