Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell
list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest
spell level the sorcerer can cast.
Im having a stupid day. Could someone clarify this for me lol. Does this apply to each level spell and effectively increases level of spells known by one?
Im having a stupid day. Could someone clarify this for me lol.Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell
list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest
spell level the sorcerer can cast.
say your 4th level and can cast 2nd level spells
you can use this favoured class trait to get an extra known 1st level or 0 level spell
at 6th level with 3rd level spells you could pick a 2nd 1st or 0 with it
Im having a stupid day. Could someone clarify this for me lol. Does this apply to each level spell and effectively increases level of spells known by one?Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell
list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest
spell level the sorcerer can cast.
Yeah, each time you take this, you add an additional spell known at a level at least one lower than your max spell level.
Thanks guys.
So, going further, if i read correctly, this trait would replace my extra feat as a human? If it does, is it worth it?
is it worth it?It certainly seems worth it to me. I would probably select an extra hit point for the first 3 levels (rather than another 0-level spell known), but I'd go for the extra spell known the next 17 levels.
I agree its useful however i disagree that you should pickup an extra 17 known spells.
the spells you choose will be your 3rd, 4th even 5th best choice for the level and keep in mind you get more known lower spells as you level which means you could end up with 7 known 1st level spells instead of 5 at higher levels
is that really worth 2HP ?
at some levels there are many really good choices at others not so much.
I'd say evalute your choices each level and unless thier is a clear I NEED THIS SPELL then take the extra HP or SP , beucase how often are you going to be using you 6th and 7th choices ?
is it worth it?It certainly seems worth it to me. I would probably select an extra hit point for the first 3 levels (rather than another 0-level spell known), but I'd go for the extra spell known the next 17 levels.I agree its useful however i disagree that you should pickup an extra 17 known spells.
the spells you choose will be your 3rd, 4th even 5th best choice for the level and keep in mind you get more known lower spells as you level which means you could end up with 7 known 1st level spells instead of 5 at higher levels
is that really worth 2HP ?
at some levels there are many really good choices at others not so much.
I'd say evalute your choices each level and unless thier is a clear I NEED THIS SPELL then take the extra HP or SP , beucase how often are you going to be using you 6th and 7th choices ?
I'm personally not very sold by this argument.
Acutaly you are
you just did exactly what I suggested and evaluated the choices instead of blindly commiting to take bonus spells for 17 levels.
depending on how you play, and what kind of role your trying to achieve waht kind of party group you have will dictate how your own evaluation goes.
I've got to admit that once I'm to the point where my primary 'class function' skills (Intimidate, Use Magic Device, Bluff and Spellcraft) are at the +15 range, this is going to be very tempting. I figure it'll start kicking in at 7th or 8th level.
I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
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I like HP as well as the next guy, but between the Toughness feat and Belts of Mighty Constitution, I generally can get where I need to be without needing that extra HP from the Favored Class Bonus.
Our group generally uses a higher point buy (25 for Pathfinder), so I generally start out at a 14 Con.
By 10th level, I've got 85 HP (plus an extra 4th level spell known, and 2 extra each of 1st to 3rd level spells). Hit Points = 6 (lvl 1) + 36 (lvls 2-10) + 3 (favored class) + 20 (14 Con) + 10 (Belt) + 10 (Toughness) = 85.
Or, I can have 92 HP and skip those spells. For me, it really is a no-brainer.
If you're playing in a low point buy game, and you can't afford the Con, then maybe I could see your point. But even with a 12 Con, I'd be looking at 75 HP versus 82 HP at 10th level.
Also, the more spells that get released in future books, the greater the reason to maximize your spells known. If your campaign uses all of the 3.5 material, then you already have way too many choices.
Lastly, when I'm playing a caster, if I'm in a position where I'm losing a lot of hit points, I was (more often than not) being more reckless than I needed to be...
Oh well just another reason to house rule = No humans allowed. After you throw on +3 Race HD, they do make good low level monsters tho :)
Muhahahahahaha
It's probably one of the best skill point / hit point trade-off options around, as sorcerers don't really HAVE any good way to add to spells known outside of feats.
That time of the month again, huh. Unfortunately, despite popular opinion, official word from the developers is that it's not unbalanced, and so they will not change it.
Best we can hope for, I suppose, is for some Ultimate Magic to give other races some juicy options to make them even viable as sorcerers compared to humans.
Several posts seem to refer to a prior discussion on this subject. I'd be quite interested in that. Could someone link to the thread(s)? Especially the one where developers say it isn't unbalanced. I'm especially interested in how the differences between spontaneous and preparing casters are explained.
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think it might be completely balanced. Here's the thing... almost every character is going to go for the extra hit point if you're core-only. On average a skill point doesn't compare.
With this alternate choice it's exactly that: a choice. It's not a given, but it's still tempting. That's balanced.
The only disagreement I have with picking up 17 extra spell for levels 4 thorugh 20 is I would pick up 3 extra cantrips as well.
The only reason I might not is because you eventually get 9 total, but I could see it.
Even if you don't have a good choice each level folks, remember that you can do the thing no one ever expects a sorcerer to do, the very thought of which strikes terror into their hearts:
Have utility spells.
Uhm... Misquote?
I was just asking for a link...
I really just want to read up on the different view-points in the discussion.
Several posts seem to refer to a prior discussion on this subject. I'd be quite interested in that. Could someone link to the thread(s)? Especially the one where developers say it isn't unbalanced. I'm especially interested in how the differences between spontaneous and preparing casters are explained.Hey cool awesome thanks for the ad hominem for pointing out that something is good.
How in the Nine Hells is asking for a link to referenced threads an ad hominem? That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think it might be completely balanced. Here's the thing... almost every character is going to go for the extra hit point if you're core-only. On average a skill point doesn't compare.
With this alternate choice it's exactly that: a choice. It's not a given, but it's still tempting. That's balanced.
Well, it's more like, at lower levels, it's not tempting at all, whilst at upper levels, it becomes too tempting to the point of being a no-brainer. Which puts it out of whack with the other FC bonuses.
Well, with the ability to get double this effect with a feat, maybe there's a design assessment that giving sorcerors a lot more spells known isn't a problem.
The correct quote is from Fiddler's Green:
That time of the month again, huh. Unfortunately, despite popular opinion, official word from the developers is that it's not unbalanced, and so they will not change it.This is the ad hominem. The reply button location gets me sometimes. I mean, he did quote my brief post and then imply I'm being hysterical for saying it's pretty good.
On the contrary, I *started* the last thread criticising the FC option for being too good. I'm just also pointing out that the debate is goingt nowhere since the developers have decided to hand-wave it and move on.
To CFalcon-compare toughness to expanded arcana. You get the benefit of the feat essentially once every two levels, you realise, as opposed to toughness, whose benefit is only replicated if you take the hp option at every level. At level 20, you can essentially choose to get the benefit of the toughness feat, or of the expanded arcana feat 10 times. You do the math.
The correct quote is from Fiddler's Green:
That time of the month again, huh. Unfortunately, despite popular opinion, official word from the developers is that it's not unbalanced, and so they will not change it.This is the ad hominem. The reply button location gets me sometimes. I mean, he did quote my brief post and then imply I'm being hysterical for saying it's pretty good.
Let me clear up this misunderstanding.
I believe you took "that time of the month again, huh" to mean "this poster is acting like a woman with PMS".I believe what Fiddler's Green actually meant by "that time of the month again, huh" is "I've seen this issue brought up over and over again".
So, no ad hominem was intended; just your typical expression of "we're re-hashing an old issue".
Because 'time of the month' is a euphemism, it would be more useful to vary the expression to something like "Another thread on this? Must be Tuesday."
I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
I agree with this.
In my group we feel there's little to no point being a wizard, if you can be a sorcerer with a ton of spells.We think it is unbalanced as it is.
The most popular suggestion, at this point, is to alter the benefit to +1/3 or+1/4 rather than a full +1.
Edit: misquote
I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
I agree with this.
In my group we feel there's little to no point being a wizard, if you can be a sorcerer with a ton of spells.
We think it is unbalanced as it is.The most popular suggestion, at this point, is to alter the benefit to +1/3 or+1/4 rather than a full +1.
Edit: misquote
I thought that would be the case with my group but Wizards still win due to getting their spell levels earlier. As much as the extra known spell make the Sorcerer tempting getting you higher level spells a level earlier is just worth so much more.
I thought that would be the case with my group but Wizards still win due to getting their spell levels earlier. As much as the extra known spell make the Sorcerer tempting getting you higher level spells a level earlier is just worth so much more.I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
I agree with this.
In my group we feel there's little to no point being a wizard, if you can be a sorcerer with a ton of spells.
We think it is unbalanced as it is.The most popular suggestion, at this point, is to alter the benefit to +1/3 or+1/4 rather than a full +1.
Edit: misquote
We're still testing. Just pointing out that we're concerned about this.
In regards to having more powerful spells earlier on, this advantage goes away at even levels (4,6,8,10, etc.), when the sorcerer ties up in highest spell level know. Not much of an advantage to the wizard if they duel at level 10, for exemple.
Additionally,
We don't think an extra talent (below) is that more powerful than an extra spell know.
"Rogue: The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent"
Unless the book in question assumes human are far better sorcerers than rogues. If that's the case, better to just rule "human favored class: sorcerer".
We're also considering a fix of this type:
"Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least TWO levels below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast (minimum 0 level spells)."
Can somebody tell me why do we have a nth thread on this with the same horse being beaten over and over ?
Can somebody link me to the other threads on this?
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Can somebody tell me why do we have a nth thread on this with the same horse being beaten over and over ?Can somebody link me to the other threads on this?
Say, let me buy you a drink and tell you a story about the "search" function. It's a long tale, fraught with peril and danger, but also full of hope and belief in mankind ...
We're still testing. Just pointing out that we're concerned about this.
In regards to having more powerful spells earlier on, this advantage goes away at even levels (4,6,8,10, etc.), when the sorcerer ties up in highest spell level know. Not much of an advantage to the wizard if they duel at level 10, for exemple.
Additionally,
We don't think a extra talent (below) is that more powerful than an extra spell know.
"Rogue: The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent"
Unless the book in question assumes, human are far better sorcerers than rogues, but if it's the case, better to just say "human favored class: sorcerer".
It's true the Sorcerer does catch up for one level but having Displacement at 5th instead of 6th is so much better. Then the sorcerer catches up and has 2 known spells of that new level. Still limited with only 2 known spells even with the favor class bonus because it only applies to lower level spells.
It's not just sorcerer though. Oracles, Inquisitor, and Bard who are also Spontaneous casters get the same favored class bonus.
The only real issue is why would you ever play anything but human for spontaneous casting classes.
Can somebody tell me why do we have a nth thread on this with the same horse being beaten over and over ?
This thread really wasn't about complaining about the issue but asking how it worked. It just degenerated into complaining about the issue. Kind of happens after you explain how it works. So here we go again. Should have just left well enough alone but the temptation got to me.
We're still testing. Just pointing out that we're concerned about this.
In regards to having more powerful spells earlier on, this advantage goes away at even levels (4,6,8,10, etc.), when the sorcerer ties up in highest spell level know. Not much of an advantage to the wizard if they duel at level 10, for exemple.
Additionally,
We don't think a extra talent (below) is that more powerful than an extra spell know.
"Rogue: The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent"
Unless the book in question assumes, human are far better sorcerers than rogues, but if it's the case, better to just say "human favored class: sorcerer".
It's true the Sorcerer does catch up for one level but having Displacement at 5th instead of 6th is so much better. Then the sorcerer catches up and has 2 known spells of that new level. Still limited with only 2 known spells even with the favor class bonus because it only applies to lower level spells.
It's not just sorcerer though. Oracles, Inquisitor, and Bard who are also Spontaneous casters get the same favored class bonus.
The only real issue is why would you ever play anything but human for spontaneous casting classes.
I get your point, but it seems to imply that wizards will have a fair access to other spellbooks or scrolls. That might be true in some campaigns, but not all.
But anyway, good points.
Just to clarify, I think adding that many spells known to any spontaneous class, not just the sorcerer, is potentially game breaking (specially if you use other 3.5 sources).
I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
To me the only unbalanced thing is that only humans get it. It's a very good option and giving it only to humans seems to unfairly penalize picking another race.
It's probably one of the best skill point / hit point trade-off options around, as sorcerers don't really HAVE any good way to add to spells known outside of feats.That time of the month again, huh. Unfortunately, despite popular opinion, official word from the developers is that it's not unbalanced, and so they will not change it.
Best we can hope for, I suppose, is for some Ultimate Magic to give other races some juicy options to make them even viable as sorcerers compared to humans.
Just because you find it unbalanced, and a few other guys do, doesn't make it the popular opinion, btw. There are quite a lot of people who are perfectly okay with the bonus.
It's true the Sorcerer does catch up for one level but having Displacement at 5th instead of 6th is so much better. Then the sorcerer catches up and has 2 known spells of that new level. Still limited with only 2 known spells even with the favor class bonus because it only applies to lower level spells.
This. I am also finding that the spells per day advantage of the Sorcerer isn't all that high against a specialist wizard, especially at the odd numbered levels.
Just because you find it unbalanced, and a few other guys do, doesn't make it the popular opinion, btw.
Just because you find it balanced, and a few other guys do, doesn't make it the popular opinion, btw.
To me the only unbalanced thing is that only humans get it. It's a very good option and giving it only to humans seems to unfairly penalize picking another race.I think this is a very good 'favored class option', especially for later levels, as previous posters pointed out (the great thing about 'favored class options' is that you're free to choose whichever is best at every level).
Even more so, if you consider that spell-preparing classes (wizard, witch, alchemist) get the same option (adding 1 spell to their spellbook). I put this in my questionnaire about the APG. To me this seems quite unbalanced even.
Agreed. The +1 to Skill or +1 to HP is true for all races.
The problem comes in that ONLY human soccers can swap this for bonus spells. That is were people are complaining.
Say, let me buy you a drink and tell you a story about the "search" function. It's a long tale, fraught with peril and danger, but also full of hope and belief in mankind ...Can somebody tell me why do we have a nth thread on this with the same horse being beaten over and over ?Can somebody link me to the other threads on this?
I searched and couldn't find anything (except my own comments). I suspect this is because there isn't a common naming convention for these 'favored class options'.
Could you please give me a link? I would be especially interested in the thread where a member of the Paizo team answered (as a commenter said they did). Thanks in advance.
Say, let me buy you a drink and tell you a story about the "search" function. It's a long tale, fraught with peril and danger, but also full of hope and belief in mankind ...Can somebody tell me why do we have a nth thread on this with the same horse being beaten over and over ?Can somebody link me to the other threads on this?I searched and couldn't find anything (except my own comments). I suspect this is because there isn't a common naming convention for these 'favored class options'.
Could you please give me a link? I would be especially interested in the thread where a member of the Paizo team answered (as a commenter said they did). Thanks in advance.
Try this one:
Human sorcerer's favoured class bonus in the APG- what happened?
Or this, short as it is:
Better prefered class bonus for human wizards & witches
And this is the original source:
Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #1
I found these by typing 'human sorcerer' and just looking at page 1 of the messageboard results. I left a few off, just because I'm feeling lazy.
Thanks for the links. I browsed through them. Only the first one has a focused discussion on the point. I totally missed it because it wasn't in the rules or general discussion sections.
I would say that in general the APG doesn't seem very balanced.
I clearly think like you as a DM point of view... But my players don't see it like that at all... They see in the APG a lot of great RP opportunity, and beyond my advice the Dragon Blooded sorcerer still prefer the skill point instead of the spell... All that in name of RP...
A shame... :/