RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Any spirituality is a belief in how the universe works, on a supernatural level. A religion is a codification of those beliefs, hopefully in some coherent creed.
Christianity's creed states a few facts about God, and a few guidelines about how a follower of Christ should live his or her life. (To be fair, no two sects of Christianity get quite the same sets of answers about those facts and guidelines.)
I think it's a fair question to ask: in what ways can Pathfinder support the tenets of faith, and the demands of a Christian lifestyle (as that Christian understands those), and in what ways can the game be damaging to that faith?
For example, I've spent over $5000 on role-playing gmes in the last two years alone (if you count travel and hotel costs for gaming conventions). That's $5000 I could have spent to feed the poor. I spend about an hour a day on these boards, instead of prayer.
But these are sinks that gaming has in common with any hobby. I've spent about the same money and more time learning 'cello. The fellow who lives across the hall from me is serious about motocross. And I have several friends who are active in the magic (tricks and illusions) community. Gaming is nothing special.
What role-playing does have special about it is a powerful way to immerse yourself in a character and make choices in a fictional environment. A Christian's PC is make-believe, but the choices he or she makes for the character are real choices. (Seriously, haven't you ever played with someone whose characters are disturbing enough to make you wonder about the mind of a player who can come up with that stuff?)
We play at who we really are. We refine our souls every time we decide that our player-characters save a village or torture a captive.
--+--+--
Perhaps a word on respect:
I am not a Muslim. But if a Muslim player were to come to these boards and ask how playing RPGs / Pathfinder interacts with the tenets of Islam, I would hope that we could (a) elicit from that individual what tenets he or she felt were important in this context, and then apply our experience to offer either reassurances or advice.
I don't think that a discussion of whether Islam is a sincere religion, or how organized religion is terrible, or whether Allah is equivalent to Torag in the hierarchy of fictional deities, would be appropriate.
I am a Christian, and I play Pathfinder. There is no devil-promotion, trust me.
up.
And More..in Italy, the RPG is ostracized by many idiots, who don't
understand the game, and for this reason, they call it" instrument of the devil". like a bunch of crap. (a lady who was pubblished on a
newspaper, said that the goal of the rpg games was play
worshipers of Satan, and then make 666 with the dice... can
immagine my reaction.)
somewhere, there was a guide written by an italian priest, which listed the "symptoms" to allows parents to recognize that "worship":
colored dice;cards;handbook;and so on. Really Creepy.
(a lady who was pubblished on a
newspaper, said that the goal of the rpg games was play
worshipers of Satan, and then make 666 with the dice... can
immagine my reaction.)
Hah! Ability scores.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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From my perspective, KenderKin, some self-righteous Christians have painted a ridiculous notion of what "Christian behavior" is. My definition of Christian behavior is simple: sin and repentance.
If someone doesn't offend God, then he's no sinner and doesn't need salvation. He may believe in Jesus' devinity, but he doesn't need redemption.
Pedophile priests are a terrible wound, and the suggestions to cover up those crimes even more shameful. But sinning --hurting God and other people-- and repenting of it, is the essence of my understanding of Christianity.
Some people understand "Christian behavior" as virtue. (Or perhaps as "behavior that doesn't include those particular sins which don't happen to tempt me".) And I would hope that my behavior is better with Christ in my life than it would be otherwise. But we do not believe in the hope that belief will make us better people. We are a church, not a moral health spa. We believe because we think that the church in question is correct about the way the universe works.
Isn't this thread utterly pointless because everybody who posts here is either going to reply with either:
a) yes
or
b) something irrelevant to the question. (Like this.)
Hah! Ability scores.(a lady who was pubblished on a
newspaper, said that the goal of the rpg games was play
worshipers of Satan, and then make 666 with the dice... can
immagine my reaction.)
Wewt! An 18!
So, religion = good, organized religion = evil.
Do you think it's possible that, like amny agnostics and atheists, you are guilty of focusing on the unattractive elements of an organized faith, and not setting your sights on all that its faithful might accomplish?
No one at Parkview Baptist Church here in TUlsa is giong to deny that every congregation, every church, every reference group, has its bad apples. People who abuse the community for attentin, people who involve themselves for the wrong reasons, people who don't get it, etc. But then that isn't our focus, either. You love a person as Christ loves them, and you offer ministry to them.
WIthout organized religion, you would not have the Southern Baptist Cooperative program, the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, and many more organizations based on the misnomered concept of "organized religion", millions in the last hundred years would have starved, remained illiterate, lived with disease or without clothing, etc. The Church isn't the only entity helping with such things, but we are certainly a prominent force opposing modern social and economic ills. What you would call organized religion should be credited with that aid.
Finally, organized religion can mean a lot of things. Are the heretics at the Westboro Baptist Church organized religion? Sure. In fact, I would say they branch off toward "religious" to the extent that they grieve God, preferring dogma over holiness and humility. But then, the church congregations and community faithful that form uman walls to keep their protests from disrupting a soldier's funeral are also often functions of organized religion.
And I guess I'd say the way we understand God is by hearing Him. You don't see how anyone could understand a "supreme being". Supposing He made an effort to contact you and explain Himself. Suppose he put His promise in writing. Recognize the Christian claim to "undestanding" God isn't that we define Him for you. It's that He defines Himself equally to all and we happen to believe.
Waiting for this to inevitably happen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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being about to graduate with my degree in psychology i find a psychologist pushing his personnel religious beliefs on a patient to be downright offensive. first you have no right to push any of your opinions on the patient you base your work in science belief it or not. second their is proof that dnd is good for you. it teaches creative problem solving. also people that play dnd tend to have fewer nightmares they get the oh a scary situation fight back mindset. oh im being chased by a giant monster wheres my +5 keep vorpal longsword -_- imma loot this beotch.
personnel opinion: its up to everyone to choose whats right for their own religous beliefs noone really agrees they might be similar but theres always diffrences. its best to accept that everyones diffrent whether you worship god gods or noone at all thats your personnel life decision.
Hitler! (there you go, lobo)
being about to graduate with my degree in psychology i find a psychologist pushing his personnel religious beliefs on a patient to be downright offensive. first you have no right to push any of your opinions on the patient you base your work in science belief it or not. second their is proof that dnd is good for you. it teaches creative problem solving. also people that play dnd tend to have fewer nightmares they get the oh a scary situation fight back mindset. oh im being chased by a giant monster wheres my +5 keep vorpal longsword -_- imma loot this beotch.
personnel opinion: its up to everyone to choose whats right for their own religous beliefs noone really agrees they might be similar but theres always diffrences. its best to accept that everyones diffrent whether you worship god gods or noone at all thats your personnel life decision.
I'm about to graduate with a masters and I concur fully, including the part about being offended by the psychologist in question.
First off, not all religions have a belief in a god.Why the need for religion then? Why not just strive to be good for the sake of being good? Why does it have to entail sucking up to a (or several) no-show supernatural deity (deities)? Why does it need to entail fear of eternal damnation if you don't follow the specific rules?
The vast majority do and the couple I can think of that might not have other supernatural beliefs instead.
Actually, I think Confucianism is pretty much the only one that doesn't and I'd classify that more as a philosophy than a religion (some strains of Buddhism might classify here too).As for Christianity, a person's relationship to god is changing. In fact, many Christians nowadays don't believe in old school hell.
That's a very small minority that have those views it seems. Or they aren't making any kind of news. But good on them for holding a more rational view on their religion.
Not so sure about your assertion about not believing in "old school" hell either. It's surely not in any way a dominant vein in Christianity.As for why the need for religion? Religion provides churches - which provide social support systems and areas for people to come together to consider morality. I think those are two things not to get rid of.
All of those areas can be covered (and in many cases are) by secular means too.
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I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.
Waiting for this to inevitably happen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I like that. I feel like Ive learned something. Knowing is half the battle. the other half is a combination of red and blue lazers.
I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.
well DUH
Jesus: God's DMPC?
blah blah blah
Actually, GOlem. WHen you refer to someone's beliefs as "utter nonsense" and say things like "go live under a rock somewhere", that is an attack. Perhaps you could try "what you believe doesn't make sense to me, but I'll talk about it". Or "I have just found I'm not interested in hearing about peoples' faith. Next topic, please." But your tone is adversarial. And you have to acknowledge that people are sensitive to that language. The fact that your very personal dismissal can be excused, in your mind, as not an attack, reinforces our belief that we are under attack. As does every moment of network television, and one FB post after another.
As far as feeling persecuted by being a gay man in the south, I have to wonder. Here I am in the South, in the buckle of the Bible Belt, where 80% of the population sleeps in on Sunday, and I can't imagine a person coming to my church and not being asked to come back, to attend men's fraternity, etc. I am not saying we'd embrace a gay lifestyle, but then the Bible tells us none of us are perfect. I get you say that there's nothing perfect or imperfect about being gay - it just is. And I am not engaging that issue. I am saying your treatment by Steve, and his church, would hardly be persecutorial. I wonder if there's a difference in perspective.
WIthout organized religion, you would not have the Southern Baptist Cooperative program, the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, and many more organizations based on the misnomered concept of "organized religion", millions in the last hundred years would have starved, remained illiterate, lived with disease or without clothing, etc. The Church isn't the only entity helping with such things, but we are certainly a prominent force opposing modern social and economic ills. What you would call organized religion should be credited with that aid.
You mean the Salvation Army who preach for those they feed and in some instances discard toys they find offensive (e.g. Harry Potter books)? Catholic Charities that would rather shut down than provide services for those they find offensive (e.g. adoption agencies shutting down because they don't want to provide adoptions to same sex couples). Good thing there are secular organizations that can pick up the reins when the religious organizations take their ball and go home.
EDIT: Have religious organizations done good in the past? Yes they have. Is their "reign" and usefulness coming to an end? All signs point to yes.Also, you said you believe the bible to be the TRUTH, aren't you then going against it by helping some modern social movements (e.g. women's rights, cf. Paul)?
And I guess I'd say the way we understand God is by hearing Him. You don't see how anyone could understand a "supreme being". Supposing He made an effort to contact you and explain Himself. Suppose he put His promise in writing. Recognize the Christian claim to "undestanding" God isn't that we define Him for you. It's that He defines Himself equally to...
I have to say, if you hear voices and you think it's your god speaking to you, you should seek professional help immediately!
And if said god put his "promise" in writing one would think he would do a better job than all the sloppy and inconsistent religious books that are out there. :-)Clearly they are the makings of mortal man, just like Pathfinder books aren't error free either. :-D
I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.
I saw half an episode of House, so that qualifies me to diagnose you all with Candiru
I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.I saw half an episode of House, so that qualifies me to diagnose you all with Candiru
I read a magazine article about Nostradamus once.
... well, most of it.
Jesus: God's DMPC?
HA!
I mean...no.
I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.I saw half an episode of House, so that qualifies me to diagnose you all with Candiru
It's never lupus.
I'm about to graduate with a 6-course minor in psychology, which qualifies me to diagnose everyone in this thread as insane.I saw half an episode of House, so that qualifies me to diagnose you all with CandiruI read a magazine article about Nostradamus once.
... well, most of it.
Were you able to predict the rest of it?
As a representative of the CEF (Cosmic Evil Forces), let me be the first to announce: Pathfinder and other RPGs don't do anything for us.
Satan is actually insulted by the lack of his presence in RPGs, and more insulted by the low stats he gets in games which include him.
Lucifer is similarly upset.
Further, the lack of tempting icons to endorse demon/devil worship (such as Succubi), and the plethora of repulsive symbolism associated with evil (decay, disease, pain) are really harming our business. The dialog of the books implies the promotion of heroism, and provides little advice on how to make a decent evil party function without infighting.
several things
Now, see. I think a friendly conversation might take a different tone.
Are you going to fault a volunteer organization for not acting contrary to its beliefs? Is that not the same as shoving your beliefs down their throat? What's the difference in standard?
I think we should ahve an honest talk about what the Bible says, because I fear you ahve some serious misconceptions. No one respected women in his day more than Jesus, right? He talked to women no one else would talk to. He looked at their heart and life and not their gender. I wonder what you think there is in my faith that would run counter to allowing women to vote or hold office or work for an equal wage. I've never had such an opinion, so I am not sure why you transfer it from somewhere else to me.
I wonder which sloppy and inconsistent religious books you are referring to. Can we agree that if you are not a student of the Bible, you are stuck accepting what other people tell you about it? So a blindly faithful person understands it no more and no less than someone who has only read what other atheists have to say? Having started from a place of criticism of the Bible, and now having studied it for years, I can tell you that sloppy and inconsistent hardly apply. Now, we can talk about that honestly, or you can reject it out of hand and go on with your preconceptions. Your call.
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I wonder how this is still in the main Pathfinder forum.
Paul telling gossipy chicks in church to shut their yappers is not a hindrance to women's lib.
Please read what was said before you comment on it.
I wonder how this is still in the main Pathfinder forum.
It's obviously the work of Satan. As his unholy energy is keeping this necro thread from dying.
I wonder how this is still in the main Pathfinder forum.
It's a miracle. Clearly.
EDIT: Ninja'd by TCG. And how.
That was pretty epic
Any spirituality is a belief in how the universe works, on a supernatural level. A religion is a codification of those beliefs, hopefully in some coherent creed.
Christianity's creed states a few facts about God, and a few guidelines about how a follower of Christ should live his or her life. (To be fair, no two sects of Christianity get quite the same sets of answers about those facts and guidelines.)
I think it's a fair question to ask: in what ways can Pathfinder support the tenets of faith, and the demands of a Christian lifestyle (as that Christian understands those), and in what ways can the game be damaging to that faith?
For example, I've spent over $5000 on role-playing gmes in the last two years alone (if you count travel and hotel costs for gaming conventions). That's $5000 I could have spent to feed the poor. I spend about an hour a day on these boards, instead of prayer.
But these are sinks that gaming has in common with any hobby. I've spent about the same money and more time learning 'cello. The fellow who lives across the hall from me is serious about motocross. And I have several friends who are active in the magic (tricks and illusions) community. Gaming is nothing special.
What role-playing does have special about it is a powerful way to immerse yourself in a character and make choices in a fictional environment. A Christian's PC is make-believe, but the choices he or she makes for the character are real choices. (Seriously, haven't you ever played with someone whose characters are disturbing enough to make you wonder about the mind of a player who can come up with that stuff?)
We play at who we really are. We refine our souls every time we decide that our player-characters save a village or torture a captive.
--+--+--
Perhaps a word on respect:
I am not a Muslim. But if a Muslim player were to come to these boards and ask how playing RPGs / Pathfinder interacts with the tenets of Islam, I would hope that we could (a) elicit from that...
This post is so fantastic, I quoted the whole thing. With the addendum that you can glorify God with the time you spend enjoying or pursuing excellence in something. God loves music, so the time spent on the cello can be used to reflect that appreciateion, and credit God for the creation of music. Similarly, being a great athlete ("I run to feel His pleasure."), or exploring a fun story with creative and dramatic elements can mean bringing glory to God, and not detracting from one's faith because you're not doing something else.
In Iron GM circles, I am probably not the only Christian, but I am maybe the most vocal one. Even then, when people ask me about why I love Iron GM as a family or event, I meantion that God created me to be creative, and to be skilled in an event where a lot of folks probably don't get exposure to Christianity. It's not a mission or whatever, and I don't speak for anyone but myself. But it's where I am, and what I do, and if I have the character God demands, I think He smiles on it.
I wonder how this is still in the main Pathfinder forum.It's a miracle. Clearly.
EDIT: Ninja'd by TCG. And how.
*maniacal laughter*
As a representative of the CEF (Cosmic Evil Forces), let me be the first to announce: Pathfinder and other RPGs don't do anything for us.
As a Satanist, I am also offended that Asmodeus and devils get such a bad rap in Pathfinder. Why are heroes always trying to kill devils?
How can I reconcile playing Pathfinder with my worship of Satan????
several thingsNow, see. I think a friendly conversation might take a different tone.
Are you going to fault a volunteer organization for not acting contrary to its beliefs? Is that not the same as shoving your beliefs down their throat? What's the difference in standard?
I'm going to fault an organization for wanting to stay with their ancient and outdated beliefs over tending to the wellfare of the children they supposedly care about. Same goes with the OP's therapist.
I think we should ahve an honest talk about what the Bible says, because I fear you ahve some serious misconceptions. No one respected women in his day more than Jesus, right? He talked to women no one else would talk to. He looked at their heart and life and not their gender. I wonder what you think there is in my faith that would run counter to allowing women to vote or hold office or work for an equal wage. I've never had such an opinion, so I am not sure why you transfer it from somewhere else to me.
Yet you shouldn't touch a menstruating woman and they should keep silent in (religious) gatherings. Do you make sure they cover their heads in church? Yeah, really friendly towards women that book of yours.
I wonder which sloppy and inconsistent religious books you are referring to. Can we agree that if you are not a student of the Bible, you are stuck accepting what other people tell you about it? So a blindly faithful person understands it no more and no less than someone who has only read what other atheists have to say? Having started from a place of criticism of the Bible, and now having studied it for years, I can tell you that sloppy and inconsistent hardly apply. Now, we can talk about that honestly, or you can reject it out of hand and go on with your preconceptions. Your call.
Wow, thank you for assuming that I haven't read the Bible and only base my opinions on what other people tell me...
Just going with the bible (I could cite examples from the Koran too), please enlighten us as to how Judas died, on what day Jesus was crucified, who were the first visitors to Jesus' tomb, who did the visitors tell of the empty tomb? Want more? It's so filled with inconsistencies and contradictions (not to mention atrocities) that if you really have studied it for years you're blinded by your faith if you can't see that.
Wow, thank you for assuming that I haven't read the Bible and only base my opinions on what other people tell me...
Just...
The "holier than thou" attitude is fairly standard practice. The assumption is that if you had read (insert holy text of choice here) than you would agree. Heaven forfend someone actually being educated on religion and disagreeing with it.
Paul telling gossipy chicks in church to shut their yappers is not a hindrance to women's lib.
Please read what was said before you comment on it.
"Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church." (NASB, 1 Cor. 14:34-35)
Yeah, don't see anything about gossipy chicks there (nor before or after that excerpt). In fact I think it's quite clear.Want to try again?
Gentle giant
1.http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.html
2.http://www.gotquestions.org/three-days.html
the answers are out there if you are willing to hear a different point of view. ?
crap I replied to this long awful thread!
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As an atheist, I can't speak on what a Christian should or should not do. I'll be truthful; I find most of the things Christians---or really, faithful of any stripe---are required to do silly. I think the idea of worshiping anything without proof, or ignoring scientific evidence and our own sense of reason in favor of the fantastical is a bit mystifying. I am definitely not a "non-overlapping magesteria" type, and in my real life I'm an outspoken advocate for atheism. (Really, skepticism and materialism, as atheism is far too broad a term) And if it were asked of me, I could tell you a million reasons I don't believe in any religion and why I think we should all collectively leave it behind.
But here's the thing: nobody asked that question. The question was, "Should a Christian play Pathfinder?" I honestly have no idea. As non-Christians, neither do you. I'd hope we don't presume to try to answer this the way I hope a Christian wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell a Muslim whether or not they should play anything.
several thingsI wonder which sloppy and inconsistent religious books you are referring to. Can we agree that if you are not a student of the Bible, you are stuck accepting what other people tell you about it? So a blindly faithful person understands it no more and no less than someone who has only read what other atheists have to say? Having started from a place of criticism of the Bible, and now having studied it for years, I can tell you that sloppy and inconsistent hardly apply. Now, we can talk about that honestly, or you can reject it out of hand and go on with your preconceptions. Your call.
I don't think you've studied the Bible hard enough. It is full of inconsistencies, contradictions, violence, bigotry, prejudice, homophobia, misogyny, and it encourages slavery.
I am an ex-Christian, and I have read the Bible cover to cover several times. I have taken "Bible Study" courses, and while reading the Bible I came to the conclusion that I could not base my morality on such a silly and disturbing fairy tale.
Gentle giant
1.http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.html
2.http://www.gotquestions.org/three-days.html
the answers are out there if you are willing to hear a different point of view. ?
crap I replied to this long awful thread!
It isn't exactly a clear and concise book when you have to jump through hoops to try and explain simple parts of it. And then excuse the supposedly infallible god by ending your explanation with this:
In the grand scheme of things, it is not all that important to know what day of the week Christ was crucified. If it were very important, then God's Word would have clearly communicated the day and timeframe.
Why do I read this thread?
Because I am fueled by hatred.
Should a Christian play pathfinder?
That depends. Does the Christian in question enjoy playing Pathfinder? If so, then yes.
Hidden evil -- there is none here. ;-)
As an atheist, I can't speak on what a Christian should or should not do. I'll be truthful; I find most of the things Christians---or really, faithful of any stripe---are required to do silly. I think the idea of worshiping anything without proof, or ignoring scientific evidence and our own sense of reason in favor of the fantastical is a bit mystifying. I am definitely not a "non-overlapping magesteria" type, and in my real life I'm an outspoken advocate for atheism. (Really, skepticism and materialism, as atheism is far too broad a term) And if it were asked of me, I could tell you a million reasons I don't believe in any religion and why I think we should all collectively leave it behind.
But here's the thing: nobody asked that question. The question was, "Should a Christian play Pathfinder?" I honestly have no idea. As non-Christians, neither do you. I'd hope we don't presume to try to answer this the way I hope a Christian wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell a Muslim whether or not they should play anything.
I completely agree with the first paragraph. Not entirelyl with the second. I too am athiest and what you put much more eloquently I called "nonsense." My comment was taken as an attack and I predict so too in time will yours.
The question was asked to an open forum. not a christian forum. If they only wanted christians to answer that should have been included in the question. To be very truthful my honest answer to the question asked would be "I don't care" as I don't need the affirmation of other to validate my life choices (including pathfinder).
However, this thread has devolved well past it's original purpose. At this point i'm simply reading//commenting to amuse myself. Sue me, It's a slow day at the office. ;-)
Why do I read this thread?
Because I am fueled by hatred.
amen! let both agree to not read anymore we can make a pact!
Why do I read this thread?
Because I am fueled by hatred.
Personally, I prefer intolerance; I get better mileage. But at least hatred is a renewable resource. :P
Why do I read this thread?
Because I am fueled by hatred.
OMG! ME TOO! We should start a club! Oh! Oh! If we call it a religion we get tax breaks! Lets do that!
Lots of stuff
Why are you hijacking this thread with your negative tangent?
What do you hope to achieve?Why are you showing disrespect to the people on this thread who are genuinely interested in the actual subject?
I'm asking this, myself being a card carrying atheist.
You're hurting our image with antagonistic dialog.
Please show more tact, and try to show that atheists can be respectful and understanding. The best way to sell atheism is to live as one admirably, and with the air of enlightenment.