Paladin + Eldritch Scion Dragon Disciple

[Forcy]

As in the title... what do you think of this?

str 16
dex 10
con 16
int 8
wis 8
cha 15

+2 human bonus go to str, lv 4 ability goes to cha and then al the way up to str!

2x level of Paladin
3x level of magus eldritch Scion

then you can go for Dragon Disciple!

You can cast in Armor, Use spell combact and spell strike with your natural attacks, Smite Evil and divine grace!
You Also get a Magus Arcana.

Wath do you think? It's not one of the most dragon disciple's stable build?

Suggestions?

[Imbicatus]

It still has the same problem as the bloodrager, namely does the bloodrager bloodline advance or do you gain the sorcerer dragon bloodline?

Other than that, it's pretty good.

[Trogdar]

If your dumping intelligence on a two point skill class you should really just dump it all the way because you will still get one skill point. At that point you can buff your wisdom back up so you don't suffer more severe penalties.

[Forcy]

I' Know.. but i need 5x knowledge Arcana for going DD so i need some skills!

For the bloodline question, i think that it stack with DD levels just like sorcerer... if not this means that i can choose another bloodline other than draconic...

[LoneKnave]

You'll never get the ability to spellcombat without your faux bloodrage being on. That's bad. Aside from that, I guess it's like a more combat focused sorcadin. Good saves and STR, but otherwise kinda meh.

Works a lot better as a gestalt (then again, most things do).

[Chess Pwn]

Forcy wrote:

I' Know.. but i need 5x knowledge Arcana for going DD so i need some skills!

For the bloodline question, i think that it stack with DD levels just like sorcerer... if not this means that i can choose another bloodline other than draconic...

Skill points can't go lower than 1 per level. So as a paladin you get 2+(int) which is -1 for 1 skill point a level. If you drop int to 7 you get 2+(int) which is -2 for 1 skill point a level. Plus human means you get 2 skills a level with an int of 7. And 5 levels later you have all the arcana skill you need.

[Trogdar]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Forcy wrote:

I' Know.. but i need 5x knowledge Arcana for going DD so i need some skills!

For the bloodline question, i think that it stack with DD levels just like sorcerer... if not this means that i can choose another bloodline other than draconic...

Skill points can't go lower than 1 per level. So as a paladin you get 2+(int) which is -1 for 1 skill point a level. If you drop int to 7 you get 2+(int) which is -2 for 1 skill point a level. Plus human means you get 2 skills a level with an int of 7. And 5 levels later you have all the arcana skill you need.

^This.

[kestral287]

It's not as great as it looks, to be honest. You're basically only of value in combat, and at level six you cast like a level three, 6th-level caster-- which is a fancy way of saying "not well". So in combat you have... a BAB of 4, at level 6, so nothing special there. Light armor only, augmented mildly by natural armor. ~d10 hit dice on average. Very limited inbuilt accuracy boosting to accommodate for the 3/4ths BAB; you almost have to take Arcane Accuracy and you'll be hemorrhaging Arcane Pool points too fast for it to even work well.

You do have decent enough saves, but beyond that I'm not sure what this build can realistically do. Casting in armor isn't really a great boon when you're still too lightly defended to take to the front lines well (there's a reason the Dex Magus gained so much traction, and it is that style's superior defenses). You don't have the arcane points to use Spell Combat for more than ten rounds per day, in sets of two. Your touch spells are, for the most part, weak, so adding them to your attacks is negligible. And you only have your claws for the same ten rounds per day as Spell Combat.

All in all, it's a one-fight wonder that isn't really capable of doing a lot to really fight a respectable battle.

At the least I'd advise replacing Eldritch Scion with Bloodrager.

[AndIMustMask]

dragon disciple was already confirmed to advance the bloodrager draconic bloodline as of the advanced class origins book. there's a little sidebar about it and everything.

[Rambear]

AndIMustMask wrote:

dragon disciple was already confirmed to advance the bloodrager draconic bloodline as of the advanced class origins book. there's a little sidebar about it and everything.

On the sidebar on page 5 of Advanced Class: Origins it does indeed say that Bloodrager qualifies you for the Dragon Disciple PrC. However, it says absolutely nothing about advancing that bloodline.

Bard and Summoner also qualify you for the prestige class. Dragon Disciple does not, however, progress any of their class abilities, just spell-casting and the Sorcerer Daconic Bloodline. The same goes for Bloodragers. The ACG is quite specific on page 8, in that abilities do not stack, unless explicitely specified. For a bloodrager going dragon disciple, or in fact a bloodrager going sorcerer of any bloodline, it only specifies that you must be of the same bloodline. If you get bloodline powers from different sources which are similar, you might get redundant abilities.

As written, a DD 10/Bloodrager 10 would have Claws, Draconic Resistances and Breath Weapon as bloodline powers from both bloodlines. Draconic Resistances would be double, redundant and not stack. Claws, you might argue, would be on while raging + (3 rounds per day + CHA). Breath Weapon would be redundant, but you might argue for getting a second use out of it. Sorcerer and Bloodrager levels would not stack for determining damage dice.

Ergo, Dragon Disciple does not advance the bloodrager bloodline, nor does it say so in ACG: Origins. That is not to say they shouldn't stack, because I think they could/should, but until there is a FAQ RAW they do not stack, and any stacking needs to be based on GM fiat.

[Forcy]

kestral287 wrote:

It's not as great as it looks, to be honest. You're basically only of value in combat, and at level six you cast like a level three, 6th-level caster-- which is a fancy way of saying "not well". So in combat you have... a BAB of 4, at level 6, so nothing special there. Light armor only, augmented mildly by natural armor. ~d10 hit dice on average. Very limited inbuilt accuracy boosting to accommodate for the 3/4ths BAB; you almost have to take Arcane Accuracy and you'll be hemorrhaging Arcane Pool points too fast for it to even work well.

You do have decent enough saves, but beyond that I'm not sure what this build can realistically do. Casting in armor isn't really a great boon when you're still too lightly defended to take to the front lines well (there's a reason the Dex Magus gained so much traction, and it is that style's superior defenses). You don't have the arcane points to use Spell Combat for more than ten rounds per day, in sets of two. Your touch spells are, for the most part, weak, so adding them to your attacks is negligible. And you only have your claws for the same ten rounds per day as Spell Combat.

All in all, it's a one-fight wonder that isn't really capable of doing a lot to really fight a respectable battle.

At the least I'd advise replacing Eldritch Scion with Bloodrager.

But don't you think that is "better" than a "traditional" DD with based on sorcerer?

It's true that you can use Spell Combact only 10 round a day, but without Eldritch Scion.. you can't never! And there is Spellstrike too!

A sorcerer build have more and better spells but i don't think that DD should be played like a full spellcaster... it's more like a warrior that use spells to buff himself and do a little field control.

So he don't need high levels spells to work well, most of nice boost he gains on early levels are already good for this build (Enlarge Person, Bull'strengt and so on..)and Frostbite and Chill Touch with spell strike and natural attacks are pretty nice to do damage

He have better safe, HP, AC and BAB than a "standard" DD.

Also.. every prc are "meh" in early levels, so a lv 6 pg (that's actually a lv 1 dd) is weaker than others lv6 classes, but a lv10 (Paladin 2 / ES 3 / DD 5) it's better, and with the right equip and buff it start to shine!
Don't you think so?

[kestral287]

At level 10...

-- you still can only cast in Light Armor, though your NA is a bit better
-- you still only have ~10 rounds of real combat time
-- you have effectively 3/4ths BAB throughout
-- you have a CL of 6th

The frank answer of "do I think it's better" is... no. No I do not.

You can cast in Light Armor. Call it a Chain Shirt. +4 AC. +2 natural armor. Another +2 during your ten fighting rounds per day.

Sorcerer can cast in Silken Ceremonial (+1 AC) and has +4 natural armor active at all times. If the fights ever go to round eleven over the course of an entire day, you actually have basically the same defenses as the Sorcerer-- a whopping +1 AC advantage. If the Sorcerer takes a Mithril Buckler, for the vast majority of the day they have the same defenses; save that theirs are easier to upgrade with magic.

Sorcerer can pretty much fight all day at this level. Scion is still limited to ten rounds-- assuming you never spend an arcane point on anything but Eldritch Focus.

Yeah, Sorcerer's BAB sucks. Sorcerer has much less need to front-line and access to better buffs-- this Sorcerer can cast Heroism, for example. Your build is level 10 with level 2 spells. They'll break against on-level SR as a matter of course. Sorcerer/DD can fight capably on two fronts; Paladin/Scion/DD cannot.

Or, the alternative of Bloodrager 5/DD 5 (a rather suboptimal thing to with a Bloodrager, mind).

That gets:
-Casting in Medium Armor, Heavy with the right archetype
-Level 2 spells, but CL 8 (within Magical Knack range of full CL)
-Better BAB
-A longer effective fighting time (14+Con rounds)
-Reduced need for Cha makes the build less MAD (you need Str, Cha, Con, and Dex. Especially with the right archetypes, the Rage can tank Dex on top of needing less Cha).

So: The Bloodrager fights better, fights longer, casts the same spells at a higher caster level, and has better defenses.

As I said: this is, frankly, a weak build. Disciple, while a prestige class I love, is not a strong one in any sense, and adding the gimpings of Eldritch Scion in general and especially Paladin 2/Scion 3 doesn't help.

And none of this is getting into the other comparison you should be making: versus a straight Magus.