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One feat for +1 to hit per 4 points to BAB once per round doesn't sound that bad to me.
For a fighter of course it will be easy to get but keep in mind that is what fighter are all about. Getting a massive amount of feats so you can customize your character any way you like. Any other class would be much harder pressed to pick this up.
Yup, I have a power-attacking Paladin, playing Council of Thieves and I'm skipping this. It's a feat that gives +2 (at 4th lvl, which I am now) on one attack. Considering that first attack will almost always hit and the issue is whether other iterative attacks will hit with added -5 and PA penalties, that feat doesn't seem that good to me.
Weapon Focus gives +1 to hit always. Seems like a better choice to me.
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I don't know if we are talking about the same feat.
We are but you have to keep in mind that furious focus does nothing to improve damage in any way, all it is doing is improving the + to hit.
Keep in mind you still take the - to hit on any AOO and maneuver checks you might make before your next turn is up, this also does not apply to any maneuver checks so trips, sunders and the like will never benefit from this feat.It is a good feat but I don't think it is overly so.
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We are but you have to keep in mind that furious focus does nothing to improve damage in any way, all it is doing is improving the + to hit.
A bonus to hit is a de facto increase in damage taken over the the course of an encounter or game.
Keep in mind you still take the - to hit on any AOO and maneuver checks you might make before your next turn is up, this also does not apply to any maneuver checks so trips, sunders and the like will never benefit from this feat.
It is a good feat but I don't think it is overly so.
All this, I agree with. It's a decent bonus for the cost of a feat, but its also something that Fighters will benefit from more often than any other class. My Paladin is lvl 11 now and I was looking back and even with a bonus human feat, there is no feat I have that I would consider giving up for Furious Focus. There is also no spot in the future for it since I'll be getting critical feats for the next two and I doubt Crimson Throne lasts much past lvl 15.
I agree, should have a BAB 6 prerequisite.
There is no reason why a feat should cancel the attack penalty for your regular attack, and low level guys with THW don't need any love imo.
A new feat from an Accesory is almost a "must have" from first level, ala WotC old good style. That said, at least the feat is more or less well balanced.
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It's a decent bonus for the cost of a feat, but its also something that Fighters will benefit from more often than any other class. My Paladin is lvl 11 now and I was looking back and even with a bonus human feat, there is no feat I have that I would consider giving up for Furious Focus. There is also no spot in the future for it since I'll be getting critical feats for the next two and I doubt Crimson Throne lasts much past lvl 15.
...and that is the sign of a well balanced feat. When it is difficult to decide whether it is worth taking over any other feat, neither overpowered nor weak.
This is really only an "obvious choice" for fighters and shapeshifters who get multiple attacks a round from natural weapons.
Now, at early levels, BAB 1-5 it is a very good feat, and if you use a combo like the one I have describe you, it's really hard to no unbalance a campaign. That character could easily kill himself in 2 rounds.
The example given above is a good damage dealer, no doubt. However, compare your fighter:
Main attack +10 (2d6+18), one AoO per turn at +8 (same damage)to one that doesn't have furious focus but combat reflexes instead (i presume a 14 dex):
Main attack +8 (2d6+18), three AoO per turn at +8 (same damage)
It's not that big of a difference in power level.
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This is really only an "obvious choice" for fighters and shapeshifters who get multiple attacks a round from natural weapons.** spoiler omitted **
I call BS. I hope your DM doesn't let you do that. It's clearly meant to benefit only the first of an iterative attack. I'd let you use it for one attack of your choice.
Sneaky as balls though. =P
Furious Focus is great for chargers, vital strikers and for low level fighters. I would take it on lv1, and retrain it into something more useful at lv8 on when I am laying out my full attack rage.
I am taking it (and the vital strike chain) for my paladin in Serpent's Skull, as I suspect difficult terrain will rob me of the possibility to full-attack.
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I call BS. I hope your DM doesn't let you do that. It's clearly meant to benefit only the first of an iterative attack. I'd let you use it for one attack of your choice.Sneaky as balls though. =P
Of course it would only apply to the first of the attacks made in the round. There is nothing stopping a creature with natural attacks from taking Power Attack.
In fact I see this as a GREAT feat for Druids, Animal Companions, Eidolons, and Feral Mutagen Alchemists, the more I think about it the better it is actually. Two feats is still somewhat expensive but I think it would be worth it with the right build.
I agree, should have a BAB 6 prerequisite.
There is no reason why a feat should cancel the attack penalty for your regular attack, and low level guys with THW don't need any love imo.
If a +1 to a single attack per round at levels 1-3 is "love", then Weapon Focus must be an all-out orgy, considering it adds +1 to all attacks with that weapon!
If a +1 to a single attack per round at levels 1-3 is "love", then Weapon Focus must be an all-out orgy, considering it adds +1 to all attacks with that weapon!I agree, should have a BAB 6 prerequisite.
There is no reason why a feat should cancel the attack penalty for your regular attack, and low level guys with THW don't need any love imo.
A single attack which is usually the only attack you are going to do in that round? Weapon focus, that you should only take once and is a basic part of the rules? Ignoring the 2 to attack from levels 4-5?
No, I don't buy it.
i don't think it is fair to judge this feat based only by a character with it at low levels, it is a really nice feat especially before sixth level but once you hit sixth level the feat slowly starts to get a bit weaker.
i see it as a really nice feat at low levels and i am fine with that
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i don't think it is fair to judge this feat based only by a character with it at low levels, it is a really nice feat especially before sixth level but once you hit sixth level the feat slowly starts to get a bit weaker.
i see it as a really nice feat at low levels and i am fine with that
But the problem with this approach was already noted by another poster, above. It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5. That's insane. Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to be; this feat exceeds the benchmark, which is an immediate red-flag.
Sure, after level 6, it's fairly weak, but you can just re-train it away at that point. Which is the problem. The feat is somewhat weak at level 6+, but it's very good at levels 1-3 and possibly broken at levels 4 and 5.
Requiring a BAB of 6+ seems like a good idea, with maybe an additional +1 bonus to compensate, so it's good for characters that make one big whack per round (pairing well with Power Attack, Vital Strike, etc), but not so good for the standard-issue "stand in one place and swing a lot" builds.
Of course its better than weapon focus! It has another feat as a prerequisite! weapon focus does not however...
Furious Focus does seem too good till you try to fit the feat in to your fighter build. I know I wouldn't be able to take it till 3rd level at the earliest.
For example I'd rather take cleave over Furious Focus. Two attacks are better than one that hits better. So at 1st level Furious Focus is out. Then there is weapon Focus, any bonus to hit worth more. Furious focus doesn't make you hit better it just reduces penalties. So there is the 3rd level feat and could select Furious Focus, Toughness, Dodge, or Iron Will.
Besides as much as Furious Focus looks good for low levels it isn't. It's actually a waste of feat till you get higher level. If you consider that encounters at low level generally have low AC then losing the penalty for that one attack is meaningless. I mean if you are going to hit anyways what difference does it make? Take 1st level fighter fighting enemies with and AC of 12 and you have a +6 to hit, you hit on a 6 or higher or power attack for 7 or higher, not that you need to power attack as the monster only has 11 hit points and you are averaging 14 damage a hit with out power attack using a two handed sword.
Now at level 12 power attack is -4 to hit for +12 damage. The AC you need to hit could be much higher and if it isn't the monster have much higher hit points. Furious Focus could mean hitting on 2 or better verses a 6 or better, that's much better use of the feat than at 1st level.
But the problem with this approach was already noted by another poster, above. It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5.
Assuming you aren't using Two-Weapon Fighting, Haste, attacks of opportunity, or any other method of getting multiple attacks, then yes.
Frankly, I just don't see what the fuss is about. Fighters and other full BAB classes usually have a pretty good chance at hitting with their first (and sometimes only) attack, anyways.
i don't think it is fair to judge this feat based only by a character with it at low levels, it is a really nice feat especially before sixth level but once you hit sixth level the feat slowly starts to get a bit weaker.
i see it as a really nice feat at low levels and i am fine with that
But the problem with this approach was already noted by another poster, above. It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5. That's insane. Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to be; this feat exceeds the benchmark, which is an immediate red-flag.
Sure, after level 6, it's fairly weak, but you can just re-train it away at that point. Which is the problem. The feat is somewhat weak at level 6+, but it's very good at levels 1-3 and possibly broken at levels 4 and 5.
Requiring a BAB of 6+ seems like a good idea, with maybe an additional +1 bonus to compensate, so it's good for characters that make one big whack per round (pairing well with Power Attack, Vital Strike, etc), but not so good for the standard-issue "stand in one place and swing a lot" builds.
The retrain argument is invalid. Only the fighter gets to retrain. It also restricts you to a two-handed weapon, and a fighter can do miracles with an offensive shield build, while getting stellar AC and such.
I think the reason people are startled by furious focus is due to the fact that pathfinder is going from NO love for two-handed builds, to suddenly making them good enough to make a real difference.
The sword & shield fighter in my kingmaker campaign has an AC in the mid 30s at lv10, hits most anything on a 5 on the die on the first 3 attacks, and deals an average of 20 damage per blow (and he has 5 per round once haste is up). The 2h paladin is nowhere near as good at hitting, deal less damage, and have 10 less AC.
But the problem with this approach was already noted by another poster, above. It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5.Assuming you aren't using Two-Weapon Fighting, Haste, attacks of opportunity, or any other method of getting multiple attacks, then yes.
Or tripping, disarming, or sundering with your preferred weapon---- It's great feat at low levels for some builds. And with it's fading utility at later levels, I feel like it's perfectly balanced.
In all actuality, I'm liking this feat better for my Arcane Duelist Bard, who could use the help because of medium BAB, and the fact that he doesn't get haste till level 7, and iterative attacks until level 8.
It gives a two-handed power attack + vital strike charger a pretty decent charge attack. It's hardly ground breaking by any means and definitely drops off in utility later on where negating the power attack penalty on one attack is less critical. It's nice but hardly broken.
It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5.
No, it isn't. Weapon Focus affects every attack, including attacks of opportunity, hasted attacks, Two-Weapon Fighting attacks, natural attacks, attacks granted from spells (like snake's swiftness), etc. It also affects attacks that do not have Power Attack applied -- for example, if you're fighting something with an unusually high AC.
Furious Focus affects one attack roll per round, period, and you MUST use Power Attack to use it.
I'd much rather have Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Focus over Furious Focus.
It's better than Weapon Focus at levels 4 and 5.No, it isn't. Weapon Focus affects every attack, including attacks of opportunity, hasted attacks, Two-Weapon Fighting attacks, natural attacks, attacks granted from spells (like snake's swiftness), etc. It also affects attacks that do not have Power Attack applied -- for example, if you're fighting something with an unusually high AC.
Furious Focus affects one attack roll per round, period, and you MUST use Power Attack to use it.
I'd much rather have Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Focus over Furious Focus.
+1 to this!
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Does weapon focus buff Natural Attacks? Reading the description, I'm not sure that could be done.
For instance, could my Eidolon take Weapon Focus (Natural Attack)? That would be pretty great. Or is it specific, like Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Focus (claw)? In any event, I don't really see how it's legal to take that based on the description, but for all I know a bunch of Bestiary monster do exactly that, or there's a ruling, or something.
You can in fact take weapon focus for natural weapons, and many monsters in the bestiary do have it. You have to specify what attack, though. Weapon Focus (Bite) for example, or WF (Claw), WF (Tail Slap), etc.
A bunch of Bestiary monsters have WF(Bite), or (Claws), or (Tail Slap), etc.
You choose a specific Natural Weapon, if you have more than one of the same type (i.e 2 or 6 Claws) it applies to all of them, just like a 2WF wieling 2 of the same weapon.
Here is the actual text of the feat.
Furious Focus (Combat)
Even in the midst of fierce and furious blows, you can
find focus in the carnage and your seemingly wild blows strike home.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon
or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using
the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s
penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make
each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional
attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
Its nice at lower levels when you miss a lot, however at higher levels its the later attacks that need the benefit not the first attack.
I fail the see what the big deal is.
The only confusion I can see is the use of the plural "rolls" when the text clearly states its a single attack. It could be more clearly written as such:
"...you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on the first melee attack roll you make each turn. ..."
The only confusion I can see is the use of the plural "rolls" when the text clearly states its a single attack. It could be more clearly written as such:
"...you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on the first melee attack roll you make each turn. ..."
A single attack can have more than one attack roll. For example, Perfect Strike lets you roll twice and take the higher for an attack.
You can in fact take weapon focus for natural weapons, and many monsters in the bestiary do have it. You have to specify what attack, though. Weapon Focus (Bite) for example, or WF (Claw), WF (Tail Slap), etc.Does weapon focus buff Natural Attacks? Reading the description, I'm not sure that could be done.
For instance, could my Eidolon take Weapon Focus (Natural Attack)? That would be pretty great. Or is it specific, like Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Focus (claw)? In any event, I don't really see how it's legal to take that based on the description, but for all I know a bunch of Bestiary monster do exactly that, or there's a ruling, or something.
As far as I can tell, you can even take Weapon Focus: Ray.
Yar.
Perfect Strike is a good example of a single attack using more than one roll. Another, which makes me really like this feat for certain builds, is Whirlwind Attack. You make one melee attack at your highest bonus, but must make a seperate roll for each creature. Furious Focus combined with charges and/or whirlwind attacks = good. Especially at higher levels when you face a -4 of greater penalty with Power Attack. (imo, of course)
~P
Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.
Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.
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Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
Given the idea that fighters are supposed to simply walk into melee range and stand there occasionally making 5 foot steps every couple rounds and full attack each round seems to be an expectation that a lot of people around her have. To me that is extremely flawed, and any DM who is playing the enemies with an ounce of intelligence would know not to bunch up his NPCs like that. I don't know about you but I don't run all my encounters in giant empty rooms with my baddies grouped in the middle. This is where Cleave and Great Cleave come in, when the fighter is forced to move to attack in the same round.
Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
One or more -extra attacks- vs a stinking +1 to hit? Please tell me -you're- joking.
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So wait, let's recap.
The feat is almost as good as weapon focus at levels 1-4.
It's slightly better than weapon focus at levels 4 and 5.
It diminishes vastly every single level from 6 onward, and probably should be retrained.
How is that overpowered? It's really good for two levels, but the rest of the time it's situationaly about as good as Weapon Focus.
At high levels, when the first attack in a full attack action is almost a guaranteed hit, this feat is pretty much 100% useless.
Also:
Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.
This.
Given the idea that fighters are supposed to simply walk into melee range and stand there occasionally making 5 foot steps every couple rounds and full attack each round seems to be an expectation that a lot of people around her have. To me that is extremely flawed, and any DM who is playing the enemies with an ounce of intelligence would know not to bunch up his NPCs like that. I don't know about you but I don't run all my encounters in giant empty rooms with my baddies grouped in the middle. This is where Cleave and Great Cleave come in, when the fighter is forced to move to attack in the same round.Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
So every encounter you run takes place outdoors? I can't speak for your games but the bulk of our encounters in our games have been in smallish rooms in dungeons or otherwise indoors, where Cleave and Great Cleave are invaluable.
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It diminishes vastly every single level from 6 onward, and probably should be retrained.How is that overpowered? It's really good for two levels, but the rest of the time it's situationaly about as good as Weapon Focus.
At high levels, when the first attack in a full attack action is almost a guaranteed hit, this feat is pretty much 100% useless.
How does this feat diminish in any way at any level if I may ask? The only situation where this feat has any weakness is in that it doesn't apply to full attacks and to me that is like complaining that Imp Init doesn't give you a bonus to your itit = your HD. Could it be better? Yes, but regardless it will always still make your first power attack every turn free. Mind you this bonus applies to your CMB as well, so that bull rush or disarm just got a bonus of +1-+5 depending on level.
I also counter again with the fact that you are relying on being able to full attack all the time.
@Dork, no I was speaking as to how I believe that Cleave is a worthwhile feat not the other way around I think you have my mistaken. And no not all are outdoors but I refuse to run an encounter in an enclosed space that doesn't at least have some cover, maneuverability, or chance for escape, those rooms have a name. They are called death traps and players should avoid them just as well.
One or more -extra attacks- vs a stinking +1 to hit? Please tell me -you're- joking.Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.Weapon Focus is a benchmark feat, it's about as good as a feat is allowed to beyou're kidding right? there are a lot of feats better than weapon focus. weapon focus is a not the best feat by any means. its an average power feat, but not "as good as a feat is allowed to be".
+1 to hit is a huge increase in damage output. I've proved this over and over and over and over and over again in various "Fighters suck" or "Rogues are OP" threads. +1 to hit with every attack for the lifetime of your character is so far ahead of an extra attack against a separate target (when concentrating damage is the key to clearing encounters easily and safely) in exceptionally limited circumstances (both enemies have to be adjacent to each other AND within your reach) that quickly becomes obsolete because you get extra attacks just for being a higher level character (Cleave becomes vastly less useful once you hit 6th level and is totally obsolete at 11th level) that it isn't even in the same galaxy. Maybe not even the same universe. Great Cleave is even more situational, being only useful when you are surrounded by a vast quantity of weak enemies, which is an incredibly moronic use of a feat even for someone with more feats than levels.
+1 to hit is a huge increase in damage output. I've proved this over and over and over and over and over again in various "Fighters suck" or "Rogues are OP" threads. +1 to hit with every attack for the lifetime of your character is so far ahead of an extra attack against a separate target (when concentrating damage is the key to clearing encounters easily and safely) in exceptionally limited circumstances (both enemies have to be adjacent to each other AND within your reach) that quickly becomes obsolete because you get extra attacks just for being a higher level character (Cleave becomes vastly less useful once you hit 6th level and is totally obsolete at 11th level) that it isn't even in the same galaxy. Maybe not even the same universe. Great Cleave is even more situational, being only useful when you are surrounded by a vast quantity of weak enemies, which is an incredibly moronic use of a feat even for someone with more feats than levels.One or more -extra attacks- vs a stinking +1 to hit? Please tell me -you're- joking.Please, please tell me you're joking. Please.
Agreed. Cleave and Great Cleave for example are way better.
We apparently have vastly different ideas of what constitutes "huge", then. *shrugs* If I'm going to play a melee Fighter, I'm probably going to have an 18 to 20 Strength. That's a +5 just from my primary attribute. Even at level 1 an additional +1 to hit just doesn't wow me since hitting your enemies relies more on rolling high on your d20 than it does relying on your bonus to hit. As you level up this becomes less true in my experience, but by then a +1 is such a low part of your total to-hit that you could probably live without the feat and still have around the same chance of hitting. If the feat scaled as you leveled up at -all- I might feel differently.
In the games I've been playing in of late, Great Cleave has been awesome due to to high frequency of that "rare" situation you described above. We've been fighting a lot of guards in close quarters.
Weapon Focus does scale as you level. You get it on one attack at 1st level, two attacks at 6th, three at 11th, and four at 16th (plus extras for TWF, haste, and so on).
Furthermore, let's assume that your primary attack deals 100 damage (just to use a round number) and has a 75% chance to hit (you need a 6 or greater). That's 75 average damage from that attack, not counting crits. With +1 to hit, you increase that to 80 average damage; that's +5 damage, or a 6.667% increase. Furthermore, your second attack hits 50% of the time for 50 average damage; that same +1 increases that to 55% for 55 average damage, a 10% increase. Your third attack hits 25% for 25 average, increasing to 30% for 30 average, a 20% increase.
That Weapon Focus increased your average damage by 15 points (a 10% increase), all for the price of one feat. That's huge.
I see what your point is, but I that's still dependent on steep variables to get that extra damage on those extra attacks. Not to mention the percentage isn't all that great imo. Maybe I'm used to splatbook feats but +1 just seems low for what a feat can accomplish. I salute you on your civility though. It's appreciated.
The percentage increase is the same even if I used 1 damage instead of 100, for the record. You'd end up doing an average of 1.65 instead of 165 with Weapon Focus compared to 1.5/150 without. It's still a 10% increase.
I gotcha, I just don't think 10% is very good for a feat (I dislike that Dodge is only +1 to AC as well, but what are you gonna do), though wouldn't it be only 5% if you can only attack once, like levels 1-5?
The percentage increase for a single attack varies wildly based on the target AC. If you already hit on a 2, it's not an increase at all; meanwhile, if you hit on a 20 (but not just because of the auto-hit-on-a-20 rule), it's going to be a 100% increase in average damage.
It evens out more with extra attacks. By the time you get your third attack, it ends up being roughly a 10% increase to damage against anything that doesn't have exceptionally high or exceptionally low AC.