In the APG halflings have the option of taking Swift as Shadows, reducing their sniping penalty by 10. Then, you have the new advanced rogue talent halving the sniper penalty of 20 down to 10. My understanding of this wording makes it appear the penalty in the end is nullified. With the sniper goggles you can snipe from 110ft(with a longbow),no stealth penalty, your only limitation being your vision. Am I understanding this correctly?
Halflings are irredeemable. And too small to enjoy them as hor d'ouvres.
But to answer your real question with one of my own, is there some rule text that says you don't first reduce the penalty from 20 to 10 (Swift as Shadows), then halve that from 10 to 5 (rogue talent)?
I'm just wondering if you did the math the other way around because the rules say so or because you wanted a zero Sniper penalty.
Truthfully, I have no idea which way to read it, but my DMing attitude is that little penalties are easy to eliminate with the right feats/spells/abilities, but big penalties are there for a reason and should not be eliminated casually. Which means, at least IMO, I would read it the way that the penalty ends up at -5 instead of -0.
It's still a huge combo (effectively +15 to hit when sniping).
Halflings are irredeemable. And too small to enjoy them as hor d'ouvres.
But to answer your real question with one of my own, is there some rule text that says you don't first reduce the penalty from 20 to 10 (Swift as Shadows), then halve that from 10 to 5 (rogue talent)?
I'm just wondering if you did the math the other way around because the rules say so or because you wanted a zero Sniper penalty.
Truthfully, I have no idea which way to read it, but my DMing attitude is that little penalties are easy to eliminate with the right feats/spells/abilities, but big penalties are there for a reason and should not be eliminated casually. Which means, at least IMO, I would read it the way that the penalty ends up at -5 instead of -0.
It's still a huge combo (effectively +15 to hit when sniping).
To directly quote both.
Swift as Shadows: Halflings possess incredible stealth even while moving through obstructed areas. Halflings with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5, and reduce the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10. This racial trait replaces the surefooted racial trait.
Stealthy Sniper: When a rogue with this talent uses the Stealth skill to snipe, she only suffers a -10 penalty on the Stealth check, instead of -20
So I don't exactly know which order to apply them. It appears to negate in the end.
Ah, well, it seems that Stealthy Sniper is not a multiplier after all; instead, it replaces the base penalty.
In that case, I would apply them the way you did and end up with a net of 0 Sniper penalty.
I am so gonna TPK my PCs with this...
(And they're still irredeemable)
Thank you for your insight.
Blast I thought I could save them.
Wait. I thought they had enough of their original deeming. What happened to that that you think they need redeeming?
They might not lend themselves well to "builds" where you increase strength as much as possible in order to do a killion times of damage per attack or something, but they have a lot going for them.
I even heard a player say that halflings were totally overpowered - though to be fair, the guy's grasp of balance is only marginally worse than a fish's grasp of quantum physics. (You know the type: Still stuck in 2e, thinks dwarven wizards or elven bards should not exist, and considers everything with more than 10 points of damage per round below level 50 to be overpowered)
Anyway, halflings can shine in a lot of roles.
Oh no, a loophole! Though a DM wanting to prevent an overpowering of +20 to sniping could always rule that they don't stack.
Anyway, halflings can shine in a lot of roles.
Yeah, they can shine my shoes...
Seriously though, Halflings tend to be played (in my experience at least) as only slightly less annoying than Gnomes and Kender. I see a Halfling NPC in a game I'm in, I tend to keep one hand on my coin pouch, just in case.
Wouldn't you apply the racial bonus first (taking the penalty from -20 to -10) and then the class bonus (halving it to -5)? Don't have the books in front of me, so I don't know exactly how it reads.
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Wouldn't you apply the racial bonus first (taking the penalty from -20 to -10) and then the class bonus (halving it to -5)? Don't have the books in front of me, so I don't know exactly how it reads.
Go back and read the 3rd post in the topic.
The class ability sets the base penalty at -10 instead of -20, and then the racial ability reduces the penalty you take by 10, meaning you take no penalty.
Unseeablething was a little unclear in his wording at first - there is no language in the rules for either ability that refers to "halving" the penalty (even though that's what you are effectively doing if you apply just one of them).
Anyway, halflings can shine in a lot of roles.Yeah, they can shine my shoes...
"Mother ***' mutt! You, you *** piece of ***!" (NSFW, Mature Language, Violence, blablabla)
Careful around halflings ;-P
Seriously though, Halflings tend to be played (in my experience at least) as only slightly less annoying than Gnomes and Kender. I see a Halfling NPC in a game I'm in, I tend to keep one hand on my coin pouch, just in case.
I need you to follow the instructions I am about to give you. Follow them to the letter.
Okay, maybe not torture to death, but a stern reproof is in order.
Stereotypes are only as bad as the people who perpetrate them.
Halflings are where its at. Besides being small and slow and weak and cuddly...they make great PCs. Well...they're...ok, Halflings are only good if you are actually roleplaying and not just meat grinding. They are a little tougher to play, but they bring in humor (usually the butt of jokes) and they are usually the last standing (because they are the least threateneing).
Halflings are where its at. Besides being small and slow and weak and cuddly...they make great PCs. Well...they're...ok, Halflings are only good if you are actually roleplaying and not just meat grinding. They are a little tougher to play, but they bring in humor (usually the butt of jokes) and they are usually the last standing (because they are the least threateneing).
Pfft.
They do have some disadvantages (not unlike most other races), but they don't have to cripple your character:
On the other hand, they get some really nice bonuses
Sure, "brute strength warrior" is not really in, but there's other concepts in the game:
Oh no, a loophole!
Oh, no, I'm scared! Hold me!
Oh no, a loophole!Oh, no, I'm scared! Hold me!
*Holds you* :O It's okay, not all vertically challenged are out to power build their way to snipe you out.
*Holds you* :O It's okay, not all vertically challenged are out to power build their way to snipe you out.Oh no, a loophole!Oh, no, I'm scared! Hold me!
Still scared of the loophole
*can't believe this worked!*
Add to the fact that being small means they can use medium size animal companions/eidolons as mounts and I think you'll see a lot of hafling cavaliers and summoners in the near future.
*Holds you* :O It's okay, not all vertically challenged are out to power build their way to snipe you out.Oh no, a loophole!Oh, no, I'm scared! Hold me!Still scared of the loophole
*can't believe this worked!*
*lets go of KaeYoss*
All silliness aside, a halfling that is an expert sniper wouldn't exactly unbalance the game. Sometimes there is an elf ranger that plays with us, and all he ever does is hide and call shot. (Which is actually really annoying because it doesn't actually contribute that much to the battle with the way he does it, and he doesn't contribute to the Roleplaying either because he's always hiding [and being smug])
*lets go of KaeYoss*
Awwww!
All silliness aside
I don't get your meaning. How would that work?
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I didn't know they needed redeeming.
The bonus to stealth while moving at full speed is very nice, it means halflings can stealth slightly faster than big people at roughly the same bonus.
My favorite halfling ability is the halfling slinger racial trait which lets them reload slings as a free action. So they can sling with iterative attacks, rapid shot, haste, etc. Very nice for a halfling sniper.
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Mounted, ranged and/or finesse-based character concepts in general.
Specifically Druid. Riding an #@&$-ing T-Rex into battle is pleasantly as effective as it sounds like it should be. Can't take Rexy somewhere? That's fine, wildshape into a bear and rip faces off yourself. Also, you're a full caster. Doesn't expressly take advantage of the halfling racial stat bonuses, but I doubt you'll find anyone complaining. Or making fun of you for being small. No one that's not going to be eaten by a dinosaur soon after, anyways...
Riding an #@&$-ing T-Rex into battle is pleasantly as effective as it sounds like it should be.
Actually, that's the wrong direction on the size chart. Don't think big BIG *BIG!*. Think medium. Doesn't get str 1000, but the mounted combat feats and abilities still work. And it's medium. That means you can ride that critter indoors without being afraid of narrow corridors or doorways. The human paladin with his horse will sit in the corner crying, and you spirited charge some dungeon creeps!
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Add to the fact that being small means they can use medium size animal companions/eidolons as mounts and I think you'll see a lot of hafling cavaliers and summoners in the near future.
The only problem with this is that there's a serious lack of miniatures for halflings that are anything other than rogue-looking characters, much less mounted halflings. There's one mounted D&D mini - halfling outrider (usually costs ~$10-15 on ebay for one) and there's one mounted Reaper halfling, but it's riding a small dragon. I have a player in my campaign right now playing a halfling cavalier and he had to buy the reaper halfing/dragon mini, plus a big dog, and convert them to put the rider on the dog.
I really hope the new reaper/pathfinder deal will give us some halfling love, especially for some of the concepts that have specifically been mentioned, such as halfling sailors.
The only problem with this is that there's a serious lack of miniatures for halflings that are anything other than rogue-looking characters, much less mounted halflings. There's one mounted D&D mini - halfling outrider (usually costs ~$10-15 on ebay for one) and there's one mounted Reaper halfling, but it's riding a small dragon. I have a player in my campaign right now playing a halfling cavalier and he had to buy the reaper halfing/dragon mini, plus a big dog, and convert them to put the rider on the dog.
Like I've been saying since I started roleplaying, I'll be the broken Dorito as long as I can tell where I am on the map. Of course, my group (including myself) are miniature fanatics so we never have to resort to using minis-in-danger-of-being-eaten. It also helps that myself and another player are illustrators that draw everyone's characters so we don't have to rely on minis to convey what we look like.
On topic, halflings certainly are no worse for wear with the release of the APG. I have a halfling trapsmith all rolled up and waiting to be unleashed on a new campaign.
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The only problem with this is that there's a serious lack of miniatures for halflings that are anything other than rogue-looking characters, much less mounted halflings. There's one mounted D&D mini - halfling outrider (usually costs ~$10-15 on ebay for one) and there's one mounted Reaper halfling, but it's riding a small dragon. I have a player in my campaign right now playing a halfling cavalier and he had to buy the reaper halfing/dragon mini, plus a big dog, and convert them to put the rider on the dog.Like I've been saying since I started roleplaying, I'll be the broken Dorito as long as I can tell where I am on the map. Of course, my group (including myself) are miniature fanatics so we never have to resort to using minis-in-danger-of-being-eaten. It also helps that myself and another player are illustrators that draw everyone's characters so we don't have to rely on minis to convey what we look like.
On topic, halflings certainly are no worse for wear with the release of the APG. I have a halfling trapsmith all rolled up and waiting to be unleashed on a new campaign.
We're kind of mini fanatics too, but mostly because my wife's an amazing mini painter so everyone likes to have a gorgeous piece of art on the table to play with.
We're kind of mini fanatics too, but mostly because my wife's an amazing mini painter so everyone likes to have a gorgeous piece of art on the table to play with.
Indeed, there's nothing quite like a finely painted miniature being set on the table for the first time.
We're kind of mini fanatics too, but mostly because my wife's an amazing mini painter so everyone likes to have a gorgeous piece of art on the table to play with.Indeed, there's nothing quite like a finely painted miniature being set on the table for the first time.
Especially if it's one of the dozens of naked Succubi that have been made.
*Laughs*
Seriously, has there ever been a miniature that's had more variations?
I'm playing a halfling sniper with basically this build in an online game. Great fun. And add in Reduce Person for tiny size +8 stealth bonuses!
I'm looking at Shadowdancer eventually for the ultimate in sniping prowess!
Haters gotta hate, sure, but if there are any halfling fans out there, I know of a halfling only play-by-post game that is recruiting. 3rd level PCs and posting every weekday as of May 2014. Email me at cayzle@cayzle.com if you are interested.
