Are there any decent builds that can utilize thrown weapons and still be able to hold up next to other more traditional combat-focused characters at higher levels? At lower levels thrown weapons are a blast, but later when you have to start overcoming DR and getting your weapons enchanted, it is much more economical to enchant a bow or crossbow than pay for the enchanting of a few daggers (as well as the need to get returning on them all) In the end, if you don't want to find yourself being useless, you are better off dropping thrown weapons and stick to standard melee and ranged weapons.
Am I wrong?
Didn't think so. It's unfortunate since throwing knives are so deadly in reality. Maybe in the Super Advanced Player's Guide next year we will see some feats for thrown weapons :P
As an alchemist with the sticky poison discovery thrown weapons work all right. My alchemist has a spear with returning so I can poison once a round at least.
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My friend created a home brewed item that is priced and powered exactly like the amulet of mighty fist except that it only affects thrown weapons (or weapons when thrown) and takes the bracers slot.
I think they were called Bracers of Thrown Daggers.
I'd imagine it would look something like this:
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot arms; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —
Description
These bracers grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons or weapons that have been thrown.
Alternatively, these bracers can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to thrown weapons. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. Bracers of thrown daggers cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. Bracers of thrown daggers does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon, creator's caster level must be at least three times the bracer's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,500 gp (+1), 10,000 gp (+2), 22,500 gp (+3), 40,000 gp (+4), 62,500 gp (+5)
there...
In Treantmonk's lab there is a monk build he has that throws shuriken using the flury of blows, lotsa thrown weapons in a round. Just a thought.
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if youuse a prestige class for 3.5's book of 9 swords they can be doable. it gives you the ability to add returning to all your weapons and make them come back as free actions for multiple attacks.
combine that with fling ally/enemy and you can have +4 dwarfs of throwing and returning :P
I seem to recall an enchantment like returning that made it come back immediately too, but I can't recall what it was now...
In Treantmonk's lab there is a monk build he has that throws shuriken using the flury of blows, lotsa thrown weapons in a round. Just a thought.
Yeah, if you can get away with throwing "ammunition"-type stuff (like a monk throwing shuriken or a Stone oracle throwing rocks or someone using a sling glove from the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide), it might work. Probably more trouble than it's worth, though.
My friend created a home brewed item that is priced and powered exactly like the amulet of mighty fist except that it only affects thrown weapons (or weapons when thrown) and takes the bracers slot.
I think they were called Bracers of Thrown Daggers.
I'd imagine it would look something like this:
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot arms; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —Description
These bracers grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons or weapons that have been thrown.
Alternatively, these bracers can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to thrown weapons. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. Bracers of thrown daggers cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. Bracers of thrown daggers does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon, creator's caster level must be at least three times the bracer's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,500 gp (+1), 10,000 gp (+2), 22,500 gp (+3), 40,000 gp (+4), 62,500 gp (+5)
there...
That is a pretty cool idea concept! I might just use that.
Well, I see the thrown weapons as a tool to down/weaken a mob or two before you can get to melee range, not a main offensive weapon. On higher levels you probably need some better tools, like the Javelin of Lightning IMO.
Edit: Heavens forbid they made that thing returning ;)
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combine that with fling ally/enemy and you can have +4 dwarfs of throwing and returning :P
Lol, nobody tosses a dwarf.
If you allow for 3.5 materials you can build a fairly decent throwing build.
The big problem with throwing weapons is that the people think it's ok for archers to have all these awesome enchantments on their bows or classes that automatically enchant their weapons or a thousand PrCs and class variants, people who throw weapons should have none of the above.
Rather then focusing on giving weapons the return quality, people should make things like magical bandoleers that can create enchanted knives which can then be thrown without worry. Hell, there's a quiver that does exactly that, just port it over direct.
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combine that with fling ally/enemy and you can have +4 dwarfs of throwing and returning :PLol, nobody tosses a dwarf.
Exactly. You grab them by the beard, swing them around, and then let them fly.
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Exactly. You grab them by the beard, swing them around, and then let them fly.
combine that with fling ally/enemy and you can have +4 dwarfs of throwing and returning :PLol, nobody tosses a dwarf.
Puts a new spin on the idea of a "dwarven thrower". XD
If you're using 3.5 content, the Master Thrower can make some pretty sick builds. I made a 12th or 14th level master thrower once (just for fun, not to play, heh), that could do between 400 and 900 damage a round, depending on how gimpy I wanted to be. xD
My friend created a home brewed item that is priced and powered exactly like the amulet of mighty fist except that it only affects thrown weapons (or weapons when thrown) and takes the bracers slot.
I think they were called Bracers of Thrown Daggers.
I'd imagine it would look something like this:
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot arms; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —Description
These bracers grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons or weapons that have been thrown.
Alternatively, these bracers can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to thrown weapons. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. Bracers of thrown daggers cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. Bracers of thrown daggers does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon, creator's caster level must be at least three times the bracer's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,500 gp (+1), 10,000 gp (+2), 22,500 gp (+3), 40,000 gp (+4), 62,500 gp (+5)
there...
A homebrew item we've always used is based off of WOTC's Quiver of Anariel. Imagine Jarlaxle's Bracer of Infinite Daggers; that's how this would work. The cost would actually be halfed since it's taking a slot, however. You could make a bandoleer that does this at the listed price. It's a good item.
Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.
Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.
Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.
I dig the bracers of thrown daggers! That is a cool concept that fills a niche.
Returning, well, kind of sucks a little...
"Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown."
So, one attack, and you can't move after. Also, you will probably be unarmed until the item returns.
There are several reasons why thrown weapons shouldn't be as good as a bow, but it would be nice if they were just a little better.
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It is possible, just not easy.
The one build I can think of which would make it work is a thrown weapon focused alchemist and a minimum level of 6. Swift Poisoning makes picking up the weapons of fallen opponents, poisoning, and tossing them into the fray a valid tactic. You could also take the feats which increase your range increments on thrown weapons to make them viable beyond 20 feet.
It's difficult, and it relies on something unconventional, but it is possible.
Here is one idea for a thrown weapons expert:
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/CsORDNEyp2GRLIhacLj.html
Might be tiresome as a PC, but a cool NPC encounter idea.
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As written, a weapon with the returning property must be caught at the beginning of the next round. How many weapons can you catch with one hand?
About a half a dozen throwing knives/darts/shurikens (depending on size maybe as low as 2), 3 javs/jav like items (like the pilum), 2 throwing axes/hammers. I like weapons ;) .
I think its also good to remember that its not always about damage. In the correct situations (especially at lower levels) there are some simple and cheep items that can dramatically help a party.
Some times it's OK to be the one distracting and irritating all the baddies while your friends pound on em.
Rather then focusing on giving weapons the return quality, people should make things like magical bandoleers that can create enchanted knives which can then be thrown without worry. Hell, there's a quiver that does exactly that, just port it over direct.As written, a weapon with the returning property must be caught at the beginning of the next round. How many weapons can you catch with one hand?
You have the right idea with the bandolier (or quiver for javelins maybe). Personally I've been thinking along the lines of thrown weapons automatically reappearing in the bandolier at the beginning of the next round instead of creating enchanted weapons, although there is still a serious money sink that other combat styles don't suffer from.
Of course the argument against such a bandolier will be that since (most) thrown weapons can be used in melee, it would completely nerf disarm (and sunder if it creates weapons).
Probably a solution is for weapons created by the bandolier to dissipate or vanish after a single attack.
Right, that was more or less my problem with Returning.
That and it just looks goofy. The halfling skulking in the dark eyes his enemies, reaches into his cloak, and puts a dagger between their eyes. And then frantically dances around as his weapons then bounce back and aim at him!
I'm totally agreeing with the bandolier that maeks weapons that dissipate immidiately after, by the way; that's more or less where I was going with copying the quiver, which Brogue so helpfully posted.
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Puts a new spin on the idea of a "dwarven thrower". XD
Exchange dwarves with efreeti, and you have a flame thrower.
cake & eating
Quantum cake.
So kind of along this thread, I wanted to get your thoughts on this idea:
A spell storing dagger with vampiric touch stored in it.
Will the dagger discharge the spell when it strikes a target it's thrown at? And would the thrower gain the resultant hp if it does?
Thanks for your time.
So kind of along this thread, I wanted to get your thoughts on this idea:
A spell storing dagger with vampiric touch stored in it.
Will the dagger discharge the spell when it strikes a target it's thrown at? And would the thrower gain the resultant hp if it does?
Thanks for your time.
Spell-storing is a melee-only enhancement. It doesn't work when you throw it.
Slightly different tangent, but the only time I've seen thrown weapons work in Pathfinder was with a melee-focused fighter. He carried a returning javelin as a back-up so if he couldn't close to melee, he'd move and (improved) vital strike throw his javelin. No quick draw needed, since he had higher than +1 BAB so he could draw while moving. And since he'd already moved, returning's strangeness about where the weapon goes didn't matter. It wasn't his main tactic, it didn't take alot of resources to pull off, and it let him hurt something on a round he otherwise wouldn't have. Mission accomplished.
Rather then focusing on giving weapons the return quality, people should make things like magical bandoleers that can create enchanted knives which can then be thrown without worry. Hell, there's a quiver that does exactly that, just port it over direct.
I see you've been following the thread closely. ;-)
I quoted this a few posts up. There are also a pair of Set gloves in the MIC that create +1 javelins of force as a free action. This would also work for a throwing build. in fact, it's really the only way that I know of to create a throwing build RAW. The Bracers/Bandolier of Infinite Daggers that I've always used, while based off of the Quiver of Anariel, isn't actually RAW, so, *shrug*.
Probably a solution is for weapons created by the bandolier to dissipate or vanish after a single attack.
That's how the Quiver of Anariel works, and that's how I've done it. That's also how Jarlaxle's daggers worked. The daggers disappear, then magically reappear in the bracer or bandolier. Consider it a minor teleportation trick, or, if it's easier, conjuration creating a weapon that lasts only a few seconds.
Also, the way we've always done returning to make it not terrible is that the weapon magically returns to the *scabbard*, not the hand. Slight change, big difference. Works well for us.
Just a while back there was this thread on the same topic.
I think there were some good ideas for throwing and ranged in general, so I listed the thread for later easy reference.
So, take a look as it *may* help out.
On the subject of porting in 3.5 material, the magic item compendium has the "glove of endless javelins" gives you a +1 javelin of force as a free action on command.
Those are pretty cool. I let my players enchant it to give their throwing weapon bonuses and refluff it as anything other than javelins if they wanted.
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Dagger of Doubling can give you infinite free daggers with Quick Draw.
I think its also good to remember that its not always about damage. In the correct situations (especially at lower levels) there are some simple and cheep items that can dramatically help a party.
Some times it's OK to be the one distracting and irritating all the baddies while your friends pound on em.
Tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, and the like can be pretty useful at low levels. Really, throwing weapon characters in general are a lot stronger at low levels. When you've only got one or two attacks and simple throwing weapons are cheap, it's easy to just carry enough to last a fight.
The problem is that throwing builds lose steam pretty quickly. Most of the non-damaging thrown items have fairly low fixed DCs that quickly render them useless. At level 1, a DC 15 thunderstone is potent. At level 10 you're running into monsters that only fail that on a 1.
Spell-storing is a melee-only enhancement. It doesn't work when you throw it.
Is there anything that actually prohibits a spell-storing melee weapon from triggering when you throw it? Spell storing just says:
"Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."It makes sense that ranged-only weapons can't do it for various reasons, but I don't see anything conceptually or rules-wise that would prevent throwing a spell-storing spear at something to deliver a payload. Its actually a really satisfying, flavorful move in my opinion.
As far as thrown-weapon tactics go, a character with Named Bullet and a decent attack (EK, Inquisitor, etc) can lay a really ugly hit on his mark - a great shot at a x3 spear crit, plus extra bonus damage from the spell. If you can slap a stored spell in there, that's a really, really bad day for someone.
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I don't know about full-on thrower builds, but I've had good times using javelins as something to use on attacks while we're still closing into melee.
Walk around with 2H weapon drawn. Spot enemy at a distance; can't or won't charge (enemy with nasty full attack that you won't kill in one hit). So grab a javelin, throw it and then re-grip your sword/hammer/whatever. With Strength and Smite damage, it's a decent action on a round you're not getting to attack in melee anyway.
Bows don't work so well for me; I can't use them one-handed. The 30ft range increment on javelins is quite enough for most combats though.