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I would say no. Each player has the right to decide how/when to use, or not use, their resources. Although, it is likely to cause bad feelings and could get you uninvited to future events. After all, Pathfinder is a cooperative game and there is some expectation that each PC will pull their weight and fulfill their role. For the cleric, part of that role is to heal damage. I guess this would be the same as the rogue finding a trap, but refusing to disarm it. If another PC triggers the trap, is that PvP?
If the cleric is of neutral alignment or follows a deity that does not care how you do your healing, then I have no problem with a cleric withholding it, except that it will effect party unity. If a cleric is of good alignment or follows a deity who says how a cleric should use their healing powers, then they face the possibility of alignment shift or even losing clerical powers, depending on how strict the deity is. And I feel these apply equally in both home games and PFS games, but I would not go so far as to call it PVP. I would take this line from the Do Not Bully section:
Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not be tolerated.
and if the player's refusal to heal is because he is just being an ass, then this would apply and he should get a warning from the GM.
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If a cleric decides to not heal and/or save the life of a fellow party member, is this considered PvP?
While I sympathise with TwilightKnights oppinion I would have to disagree as far as OP is concerned.
The PvP rule is there to foment cooperation and that all involved players have fun.
For this to happen it is important that all players can rely on one another - which also is why PCs cannot be evil in OP.
So en general I would say no. Just as the spell caster hopes for, or even expects the warrior to put his life on the line, so does the warrior rightly deserve his partys aid.
If a particular player has been particularly disruptive to the game and other players it is up to the GM to take it up with that player, or even exclude the player if necesary. It should never be players who punish other players, neither in-game or off-game.
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I can understand a cleric player not wanting to be the goto heal-bot during combat.
Refusing to drop a CLW or even a cantrip to stabilize an unconscious character is pretty anti-social though. I certainly don't want that sort of player at my table as a GM or as a fellow player and would consider it a form of dysfunctional play that falls into the bullying clause.
Without actually being at the table in question it's hard to make a judgment call though.
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Refusing to drop a CLW or even a cantrip to stabilize an unconscious character is pretty anti-social though. I certainly don't want that sort of player at my table as a GM or as a fellow player and would consider it a form of dysfunctional play that falls into the bullying clause.
I have been slow to heal characters back up over 0 before if I feel like their bad tactics are causing as much or more damage as the bad guys we are fighting. I'll stabilize to remove the immediate threat, but heal them after combat.
Of course, I've also been killed by my own stupid tactics before too. :)
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I think Kyle's question was intended to ask if it's outside the OP guidelines *for role-play purposes* not to heal another PC that your character feels in-character antipathy toward, such as a Taldan-nationalist vs a Keleshite from Qadira. How far can a player take the rivalry? As far as allowing that PC to die by refusing to apply any healing or stabilization?
Are we really seeing a large number of instances where PCs die because a rival faction cleric lets that PC die? If so, I'm not hearing about it.
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Is the party wizard not casting haste in round one because they wanted to cast mirror image instead considered PvP? The end result can be the same, a dead party/player because of a selfish player. Why does a cleric/oracle/bard/etc have to spend their turn healing someone who is dying? What if casting a flame strike or channeling to harm undead is actually more tactically sound?
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Are we really seeing a large number of instances where PCs die because a rival faction cleric lets that PC die? If so, I'm not hearing about it.
Not really the issue. I was being more general. If I'm running a table, and a character is bleeding out and the party healer(s) decide not to stabilize them (for whatever reason), is that considered PvP?
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Are we really seeing a large number of instances where PCs die because a rival faction cleric lets that PC die? If so, I'm not hearing about it.
I think the conclusion we can make is that even though it has been taken up a number of times, there is still a lot of confusion about what constitutes PvP.
If you can explain the intention behind the rule PvP people might themselves resolve eventualities better.
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Kent
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For some, role-playing their character will always involve being as awkward as possible but if that's their bag then PFS isn't the organised play game for them because, faction shenannigans aside, we're all on the same side. Is there really anyone who doesn't want the mission to succeed? If you want PvP take it outside and don't try to sneak it in through the backdoor. In the Castle Ravenloft boardgame if a party member dies it's 'game over' so perhaps a little xp, loot or prestige penalty would keep the party spirit alive...
Director of Brand Strategy
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Any chance we can get the FAQs changed (or another thread added) so that only Paizo people can change it. Then when things are made "official" they are added into one thread.
All discussions would be done in a separate thread. It would sure make searches easier.
Something along these lines is already in the works but will take a little bit of time to implement. Cleaning up the FAQs is high on the todo list.
Hey Mark,
Since there have been a lot of threads besides the FAQ thread over the past month or so that have had questions asked but not answered due to either the heavy convention schedule, Josh's surgery or whatever else kept him away from the forums, should we start a fresh thread where everyone can re-post their questions so that you and Hyrum do not have to dig through and read everything to find what needs to be answered and what doesn't? Or is that what you are already referring to doing with your last post?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Hey Mark,
Since there have been a lot of threads besides the FAQ thread over the past month or so that have had questions asked but not answered due to either the heavy convention schedule, Josh's surgery or whatever else kept him away from the forums, should we start a fresh thread where everyone can re-post their questions so that you and Hyrum do not have to dig through and read everything to find what needs to be answered and what doesn't? Or is that what you are already referring to doing with your last post?
If I get my way that won't be necessary. We're working to divide the work Josh was doing between us as well as a lot of other things we were already involved in, so I don't want to detail too much what I have in mind, but once I do, we'll make sure everyone knows. I plan to set aside time in the next week to really dig through and find pending questions and unresolved issues. So just hang tight, and if something appears to have slipped through the cracks once we've got the ball rolling again, repost it then.
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If a cleric decides to not heal and/or save the life of a fellow party member, is this considered PvP?
Kyle Baird, You have brought up a very interesting question. I would say no.
I often play clerics. In a home game I played in a Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path. I had a cleric of Sarenrae, with the healing and sun domains. He was Qadiran. I modeled Gabriel after Morgan Freeman’s character in the Robin Hood Prince of Thieves movie with Kevin Costner.
“Where is the sun in this dam country” etc. He was allot of fun to play. He healed the party, when the plague hit, he would spend his non-adventuring time working in the temple of Sarenrae doing what he could to help stem the plague. When he was outside, he would hide his holy symbol, and play the roll of a warrior. (He knew the mobs of desperate people would have probably trampled him). There was another instance where they had the opportunity to heal a “typhoid Mary” a young child in a slum. The clerics of Abadar’s hands were tied because the family couldn’t pay. My character being a cleric of Serenade wasn’t bound by any such strictures.
In Pathfinder organized play, I have a character, named Fatum Aedituus Venificus, (I believe that is Latin for Fate, the priest who brings prophesy or holy word, and wizard) who is a 10 level Mystic Theurge. He has 3 levels of cleric (Pharasma) with 3 levels of Wizard (Necromancer). My thinking behind the character was that he believed in order to understand life fully; he must understand l death as well. Positive energy and negative energy have sort of a ying-yang relationship. He has both the turn undead feat, and from his necromancer class feature the command undead feat. He also employs the Command undead spell. From my understanding of Pharasma and her dogma, the animation of the undead is an anathema, and the controlling of the undead frowned upon. My character will never animate the dead, but he does try to take control of the undead under specific circumstances. He turns mindless undead against each other, which he immediately destroys once, the combat is over. He also uses the Command Undead spell to break the hold an evil cleric might have over a conscious spirit (ghost specter, etc) and ask it to help him by turning on the cleric that dominated him, and he offers to help the spirit find its natural rest.
In terms of healing the other players, he does so, but I sometimes comment, I wonder is this your time to visit the halls of our lady Pharasma. Is it your time? " we have no fate but the fate we are given." That is often his comment upon the demise of the party’s enemies. He isn’t as quick to help others as the cleric of Sarenrae is. Perhaps it is their time to go. But I have never let someone die through inaction if I can help it. My character can either use channel energy (with the selective channel feat) or use the Spectral hand spell, to channel cure light wound spells, or for that matter he can simply use the stabilize orision.
In pathfinder organized play, I also have a 3rd level LN cleric of Asmodeus with the trickery and the fire domains he channels negative energy, and has the selective channel feat. My character has a wand of cure light wounds. He does not have any ranks in the heal skill. He does have ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense motive, and Profession Barrister. When the party is first sent on their mission, he draws up a contract. The fighter types will agree to protect the spell casters with life and limb, while the arcane spell casters will use their magic to benefit the party, and my character will agree to heal as he sees fit. My character has gone through as much as 11 charges in his wand of healing in a gaming session. He does heal, but he makes sure a contractual agreement is in place before he does so.
I have three clerics whom are all very different in how I play them. They all have different flavors, and different attitudes towards healing. The cleric of Sarenrae heals where he sees need, the Cleric of Phrasma is a bit more indifferent, because he is hesitant to interfere with ones final fate, and the cleric of Asmodeus will only heal if contractually obligated to do so.
This of course could all be considered “flavor text”. If a cleric decides not to heal a character and he dies, is that PVP? I would say No. Not healing another character is not PVP. PVP from what I understand implies one player is having his character act in a violent and harmful way to another character, which is not allowed.
However a cleric not healing a character in my mind would be inaction. I think a player can play his character as he sees fit, and can spend his recourses, i.e. spells how he sees fit.
That being said, someone who refuses to use a Stabilize which is an Orision and lets another character die, is being a disruptive ass. Perhaps he should be encouraged to play another game. I am sure the other players at the table will remember this, and the player may find his character in a particularly tight spot, with the other players a the table, not willing to help him.
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ARRGGHH!
ONe week! Just one week!
I had been waiting to level up my fighter to ninth level because I wanted the 'Monkey Lunge' feat. I finally had to level him up last weekend because he was needed to play.
Now I have to wait till tenth level.
(Why does fate treat me like an ex wife after a bad divorce?)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) Can we get rid of the 3.5 conversion information at some point?
Considering I just used it last night to rebuild my 2008 GenCon character, I'd rather leave it in the guide forever. Who knows when someone needs to dig up their xxxx-1 character and finally get around to rebuilding it. We should presume every has done this already.
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1) Can we get rid of the 3.5 conversion information at some point?Considering I just used it last night to rebuild my 2008 GenCon character, I'd rather leave it in the guide forever. Who knows when someone needs to dig up their xxxx-1 character and finally get around to rebuilding it. We should presume every has done this already.Well it could be moved to a separate document just for it that could be updated with any current changes to those rules, if any.
Then the SRD could simply reference that document.
-James
That is a much better idea than removing it entirely.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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1) Can we get rid of the 3.5 conversion information at some point?Considering I just used it last night to rebuild my 2008 GenCon character, I'd rather leave it in the guide forever. Who knows when someone needs to dig up their xxxx-1 character and finally get around to rebuilding it. We should presume every has done this already.Well it could be moved to a separate document just for it that could be updated with any current changes to those rules, if any.
Then the SRD could simply reference that document.
-James
That's the current idea. Reorganizing all the information in the Guide and establishing a more intuitive FAQ system on the website is a priority, but it's a ton of information, and will take some time. When everything's in place, this 2-year-old information will almost certainly be moved to an online home that players can reference but that they won't need to print out every time we update the Guide.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I have questions:
1) If a negative effect in on a PC, must the PC resolve (succeed at removing) it on the C.Sheet it was obtained?
2) Must the PC use PA or Gold to buy those services? Do the purchased Dispells auto succeed or do they follow the rules and have a roll? If it took a 9th level Sorcerer NPC 15 times to make the roll, does he owe 15 times the casting cost?
3) Craft Armor is not forbidden in the GtPFS, but it also isn't allowed. There is text about Craft Alchemy for Alchemists and Rogues. Should there be a line that these classes are the only classes that may use the Craft skill to make items and when doing so only Poisons/Alchemical items?
4) Some classes in APC grant feats from Bestiary (Eagle Shaman/Natual Weapon Combat Style Ranger.) The GtPFS says "remainder of the APG is legal" which would include these but the Bestiary says "None of the feats are legal" would reject. One of the two wins (the explicit allow and the explicit disallow.)
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I have questions:
1) If a negative effect in on a PC, must the PC resolve (succeed at removing) it on the C.Sheet it was obtained?
The way I understand it is that you have three choices.
a. Have an ongoing negative effect removed or cured magically.
b. Rest for a period long enough to cure you of the affliction naturally (which may not be possible).
c. Record on your chronicle sheet that you're afflicted with something and suffer through the consequences.
For example, if you're blinded, you're stuck choosing between a and c. On the other hand if you're suffering through a DEX poison, you can either chose a or b.
2) Must the PC use PA or Gold to buy those services? Do the purchased Dispells auto succeed or do they follow the rules and have a roll? If it took a 9th level Sorcerer NPC 15 times to make the roll, does he owe 15 times the casting cost?
This has been mentioned before. I believe you do have to make the rolls (in the cases of remove disease for example) or play for the service multiple times. The question is, do you have to do this with PA too, or is that assumed to "automatically work".
3) Craft Armor is not forbidden in the GtPFS, but it also isn't allowed. There is text about Craft Alchemy for Alchemists and Rogues. Should there be a line that these classes are the only classes that may use the Craft skill to make items and when doing so only Poisons/Alchemical items?
The guide is still technically between revisions where a lot of these questions have been clarified on the forums. I think it's fair to assume that unless specifically noted in the guide, all crafting is prohibited.
4) Some classes in APC grant feats from Bestiary (Eagle Shaman/Natual Weapon Combat Style Ranger.) The GtPFS says "remainder of the APG is legal" which would include these but the Bestiary says "None of the feats are legal" would reject. One of the two wins (the explicit allow and the explicit disallow.)
IMHO - explicit disallow. The allow says the options are legal, but that's just an easy blanket statement instead of having to go through all the disallowed stuff again.
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I have questions:
1) If a negative effect in on a PC, must the PC resolve (succeed at removing) it on the C.Sheet it was obtained?
I was told by a table GM at GenCon '09 that a scenario/chronicle is worth one day's recovery time. You recover one point of ability damage at the end of each scenario including the one in which the drain occurred. So if you loose three points of Strength, you will recover one when you receive the chronicle for that scenario. Without additional curative magic, you will recover the other two points over the next two scenarios. This is the rule we have been using. If this is not correct, I hope the PFS leadership can clarify.
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I never heard this rule. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I never heard this one.I was told by a table GM at GenCon '09 that a scenario/chronicle is worth one day's recovery time. You recover one point of ability damage at the end of each scenario including the one in which the drain occurred. So if you loose three points of Strength, you will recover one when you receive the chronicle for that scenario. Without additional curative magic, you will recover the other two points over the next two scenarios. This is the rule we have been using. If this is not correct, I hope the PFS leadership can clarify.I have questions:
1) If a negative effect in on a PC, must the PC resolve (succeed at removing) it on the C.Sheet it was obtained?
I asked about the rule back in season 0. It is absolutely a timeframe of "whatever amount of time is required to rid yourself of your afflictions." Your GM was wrong according to the previously stated rules.
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Here it is on the old 2.0 FAQ.
Damage heals as normal. There's no specific time between scenarios, so damage heals. Drain needs to be cleared. Sorry for the confusion.
Emphasis mine. This was in regards to my question about "does ability damage heal between scenarios".
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Here it is on the old 2.0 FAQ.
Damage heals as normal. There's no specific time between scenarios, so damage heals. Drain needs to be cleared. Sorry for the confusion.Emphasis mine. This was in regards to my question about "does ability damage heal between scenarios".
This remains true. So while ability damage heals back between scenarios, diseases keep going in this indefinite period of time as well, so it's a double edged sword. It's entirely possible that a PC could die after a scenario ended from a CON damaging disease they just couldn't kick. Them's the breaks.
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This remains true. So while ability damage heals back between scenarios, diseases keep going in this indefinite period of time as well, so it's a double edged sword. It's entirely possible that a PC could die after a scenario ended from a CON damaging disease they just couldn't kick. Them's the breaks.Here it is on the old 2.0 FAQ.
Damage heals as normal. There's no specific time between scenarios, so damage heals. Drain needs to be cleared. Sorry for the confusion.Emphasis mine. This was in regards to my question about "does ability damage heal between scenarios".
Yup, That is how our Druid Lost his First Companion... Poor poor dog...
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This remains true. So while ability damage heals back between scenarios, diseases keep going in this indefinite period of time as well, so it's a double edged sword. It's entirely possible that a PC could die after a scenario ended from a CON damaging disease they just couldn't kick. Them's the breaks.
So, since there is an undefined amount of time between scenarios, a PC with ability damage can just finish the mod with the loss and recover 100% before the next scenario? That would mean that only permanent loss would require an expenditure of resources, or if the PC wanted to heal the loss during the scenario it occurred in. Is that correct?
And how does that affect diseases? Without a magical cure, how do you make the daily saves? When would a PC "die" if there is no time frame between scenarios? Do they just make a series of saves at the end of the scenario or the beginning of the next one to see if they recover?
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Yep. You only have to pay if it is permanent or if you want restored midway through a scenario.
If you still have a disease at the end of a scenario you make the checks (or pay) to see if you live or die as the concluding business at the end of the scenario. Doesn't make any sense to leave that hanging until you sit down at a new table then start making rolls to see if your character you signed on with is actually dead before it begins.
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So, since there is an undefined amount of time between scenarios, a PC with ability damage can just finish the mod with the loss and recover 100% before the next scenario? That would mean that only permanent loss would require an expenditure of resources, or if the PC wanted to heal the loss during the scenario it occurred in. Is that correct?
Think of it this way. Did you only let your players gain a number of hit points equal to their level back between scenarios? It's the same mechanic at work. Only permanent drain (not damage) persists between modules (and in that case would require restoration to fix) and requires PA or gold to fix.
And how does that affect diseases? Without a magical cure, how do you make the daily saves? When would a PC "die" if there is no time frame between scenarios? Do they just make a series of saves at the end of the scenario or the beginning of the next one to see if they recover?
Disease is the tough one. You need to "roll it out". If a player wants to see if they can kick the disease without the use of magic, and it's a CON draining disease, they may not make it and eventually will need to pay to have it removed or have their character die in the down-time Conversely, if they do decide to have remove disease cast, they're going to have the roll made to see if it actually kicks the disease or potentially have it cast multiple times.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Disease is the tough one. You need to "roll it out". If a player wants to see if they can kick the disease without the use of magic, and it's a CON draining disease, they may not make it and eventually will need to pay to have it removed or have their character die in the down-time Conversely, if they do decide to have remove disease cast, they're going to have the roll made to see if it actually kicks the disease or potentially have it cast multiple times.
Exactly.
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Disease is the tough one. You need to "roll it out". If a player wants to see if they can kick the disease without the use of magic, and it's a CON draining disease, they may not make it and eventually will need to pay to have it removed or have their character die in the down-time Conversely, if they do decide to have remove disease cast, they're going to have the roll made to see if it actually kicks the disease or potentially have it cast multiple times.Exactly.
Mark,
If I go for remove disease via PA cost, will I have to pay that loss as well for each failed attempt to remove the disease?
Disease is the tough one. You need to "roll it out". If a player wants to see if they can kick the disease without the use of magic, and it's a CON draining disease, they may not make it and eventually will need to pay to have it removed or have their character die in the down-time Conversely, if they do decide to have remove disease cast, they're going to have the roll made to see if it actually kicks the disease or potentially have it cast multiple times.Exactly.Mark,
If I go for remove disease via PA cost, will I have to pay that loss as well for each failed attempt to remove the disease?
The way I have always understood it is that a spell bought with PA is always bought at the minimum caster level, while a spell bought with gold can be as powerful for caster level as your TPA allows you to buy.
Page 25:
Any spellcasting purchased using CPA is cast at minimum caster level.
Page 22 for purchasing spellcasting with gold:
Page 163 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook covers the rules for purchasing spellcasting services and the associated costs are listed in the "Spellcasting and Services" table on page 159.
From that chart on page 159:
Spellcasting: Caster level × spell level × 10 gp
So if you need a Remove Disease cast at higher than minimum caster level, you would use this formula.
Stuff in reply to Mr. Slanky that had no bearing on his questionSomeone's getting old & forgetful...
Ha, I just did not add the final thought to my post. That's what can happen when you accidentally click on submit before you are ready. :)
I was going to add that since purchasing casting with PA is always at minimum caster level, to be prepared for failure and having to spend the PA again for another try, since there is the option to buy the spell at a higher caster level through gold, at least that is how I would run it until the Guide is clearer on the topic. I would much rather spend 300 gold on a Remove Disease caster by a 10th level cleric, than burning a PA for a Remove Disease cast by a 5th level cleric.
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Stuff in reply to Mr. Slanky that had no bearing on his questionSomeone's getting old & forgetful...Ha, I just did not add the final thought to my post. That's what can happen when you accidentally click on submit before you are ready. :)
I was going to add that since purchasing casting with PA is always at minimum caster level, to be prepared for failure and having to spend the PA again for another try, since there is the option to buy the spell at a higher caster level through gold, at least that is how I would run it until the Guide is clearer on the topic. I would much rather spend 300 gold on a Remove Disease caster by a 10th level cleric, than burning a PA for a Remove Disease cast by a 5th level cleric.
Hey, just my two cp: Shouldn't there be a guarantee of quality from a service provider? If I'm paying someone, especially if I'm paying my hard earned gold, I expect that they deliver results. If their casting fails (much like if my dentist puts in a filling that falls out as I walk out of his office, irl), I expect the provider to keep trying until the promised result is achieved, at their expense. Is this not a reasonable expectation of a typical temple or wandering healer?
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Hey, just my two cp: Shouldn't there be a guarantee of quality from a service provider? If I'm paying someone, especially if I'm paying my hard earned gold, I expect that they deliver results. If their casting fails (much like if my dentist puts in a filling that falls out as I walk out of his office, irl), I expect the provider to keep trying until the promised result is achieved, at their expense. Is this not a reasonable expectation of a typical temple or wandering healer?Stuff in reply to Mr. Slanky that had no bearing on his questionSomeone's getting old & forgetful...Ha, I just did not add the final thought to my post. That's what can happen when you accidentally click on submit before you are ready. :)
I was going to add that since purchasing casting with PA is always at minimum caster level, to be prepared for failure and having to spend the PA again for another try, since there is the option to buy the spell at a higher caster level through gold, at least that is how I would run it until the Guide is clearer on the topic. I would much rather spend 300 gold on a Remove Disease caster by a 10th level cleric, than burning a PA for a Remove Disease cast by a 5th level cleric.
Cleric: "I BESEECH THEE, ABADAR, HEAL THIS SOUL!!!"
[swirl, swirl, crackle, ::pop::]Cleric: "Okay, that'll be 150gp."
Adventurer: "But I'm still sick!!! I can see the mummy rot still eating away at my arm!"
Cleric peers down at arm.
Cleric: "meh. I tried. Please pay my assistant."
Adventurer: "I'm not paying a copper until my arm is healed."
Cleric: "Our agreement was clear. You asked me to cast Remove Disease at my standard pay rate. I did cast it. My portion of the contract has been fulfilled."
Adventurer: "Next time I'm going to the church of Sarenrae."
Cleric: "I get that a lot."
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[Adventurer arrives at temple of Sarenrae, ends up dying in the line of freeloaders who refuse to go to their primary care herbalist (who charges a 5sp fee) for their gout and wait until it's a crisis before taking action, clogging the temple with non-emergency complaints and exhausting the supply of remove disease spells available for the day]
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[Adventurer arrives at temple of Sarenrae, ends up dying in the line of freeloaders who refuse to go to their primary care herbalist (who charges a 5sp fee) for their gout and wait until it's a crisis before taking action, clogging the temple with non-emergency complaints and exhausting the supply of remove disease spells available for the day]
Temple of Sarenrae otherwise known as your friendly overworked local ER
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Being how both gold and PA are a precious commodity, shouldn't you automatically succeed when you spend either after a scenario to cure something? Especially when spending PA.
Look at it this way -- vendors can easily guarantee success...they'll just have to charge 3x as much to do so.
Economics aside, though, I think you have a point. Might not PA purchases automatically succeed? I get that gold costs need to scale to remain relevant, but PA matters to everyone. Plus, since PA exists only in PFS, no rules exceptions would be needed.
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Being how both gold and PA are a precious commodity, shouldn't you automatically succeed when you spend either after a scenario to cure something? Especially when spending PA.
I'm in favor of rolling it out. They changed the spell from 3.5 for a reason. Diseases should suck, and getting rid of them shouldn't be simple. I am also primarily GM so I tend to err on the side of "suck it up" ;)
You can pay for a higher caster level (which Enevhar Aldarion pointed out) if you are worried about it working. If you don't want to get diseased, then don't let the icky people touch you!Seriously, most of the time my players will just ride out the disease and only pay if their CON score is getting drained.