What exactly happens when a flying creature is knocked prone?
In particular, I am dealing with an alchemist tossing force bombs at a flying dragon. Obviously the dragon must make his fly check to avoid falling 10 feet from taking damage. But if the dragon fails it's reflex save it gets knocked prone. I'm not sure what to do with that. Does it immediately fall to the ground? That seems odd. How can he get in a full round of falling between his turns? Or does he fall on his turn, with a possible fly check to avoid falling damage? If so, does that take up his entire turn, even if it doesn't actually take that long for him to fall?
Attacked While Flying
You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement.
I don't see anything for reflex saves and getting knocked prone... :S
I don't see anything for reflex saves and getting knocked prone... :SAttacked While Flying
You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement.
The alchemist's force bomb states that someone hit by it must make a reflex save or be knocked prone. And as you said, there is nothing in the fly section about it.
Some rules are made with given assumptions. Have the dragon make a fly check at an appropriate DC. If it fails the check,it plummets.
Seems reasonable. I was just hoping there was something official. But there may very well not be.
Flying creatures can't be tripped/knocked prone.
It's under the trip combat maneuver in the Combat chapter. Also, the prone condition references "standing up" something that is impossible while flying.
Ah. That makes sense. Thanks.
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So the prone condition says:
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Kinda sounds like a creature that's not on the ground can't gain the prone condition. Also there's this:
Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Emphasis mine. So even if a flying creature could be knocked "prone" it's a free action to resume flying, so it would have no practical effect.
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Most free actions cannot be performed on other people's turns.
So, there is an effect, if being knocked prone is possible.
The prone condition specifically stipulates that you are lying on the ground though. Unless you're flying 6 inches above the ground, you couldn't be prone before your next turn started, unless knocking a flying creature prone is intended to cause brutal atmospheric re-entry type grounding and trigger appropriate fall damage (in which case I'm adding a level or two of fighter and Imp. Trip to every dragon who doesn't have it for some entertaining tail-slaps against those pesky flying adventurers). I would say you could make an argument for an ability that would cause someone to be knocked prone to cause a loss of altitude, but as far as I can find there's nothing in the rules that supports that.
I might use that as a house rule though, something like :
If you would be knocked prone as a result of a CMB check while flying, lose 5 feet of altitude plus an additional 5 ft for each 5 points by which your CMD was exceeded. If this loss of altitude is enough to lower you to ground level, you are prone.
if you want to knock a creature out of the sky as an alchemist use a tanglefoot bomb if they fail they're glued, can't fly and will smack into the ground
As a house rule, how about the dragon getting Staggered for one round instead? It's been hit with a big blast, it's not gonna teleport to lying prone on the ground, but it's lost some speed that turn.
or treat as a reposition combat manurer to create the effect of forcing it lower to the ground
I believe you can't knock a flying creature prone unless you disable it's ability to fly. A tangle foot bag/bomb will work on a creature that needs wings to fly, but would not affect a wizard using the fly spell.
Being knocked prone is an effect of knocking you off balance therefore making you fall. I would rule that the hit, if it causes damage (I am not familiar with the bombs), causes a creature to fall 10' if they fail their save and 10' more for the effect of the bomb, should they fail that save.
This allows some benefit of the bomb and also gives some benefit to flight.
Your mileage may vary.
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Most things that knock you prone are tripping/footwork stuff. That's obviously not going to fly with dragons. But this looks like it's more a concussion thing that would knockdown a standing person. Against an airborne creature it makes sense that the creature is hindered somehow; by being pushed back, down, or by being slowed (Staggered) for a moment while it regains control.
It is up to the GM to determine what effects prevent a creature from flying. This seems an appropriate method to temporarily disable a creature that employs wings to fly.
Such a creature would immediately begin to fall, covering the initial round falling distance. There are two general schools of thought on the speed of falling objects in the game: The 3.5 DMG states that a creature that fails to maintain enough forward momentum to remain airborne "falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling," and some GMs use this for their games. The other method attempts to emulate real-world physics, and states that a falling character falls 500 feet in the initial round. In both cases the distance is doubled on the second round if the character continues to fall (300 feet and 1000 feet, respectively), after which the falling speed remains constant.
If the creature strikes the ground in the initial round's fall, it suffers falling damage and is rendered prone. If it is still airborne it can begin flying on it turn as a free action, though it's direction of movement is now downward. It will need to make use of the Fly skill to turn, unless it wants to continue to propel itself into the ground.
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Can a creature/character with natural or magical flight be knocked prone?Not when they're flying. You can mess with a creature in the ways detailed in the Fly skill, which might make them fall, but you can't make a flying creature prone. Or a swimming or burrowing or climbing creature, for that matter.
But what if I want to benefit from Prone Shooter while flying? D:
But what if I want to benefit from Prone Shooter while flying? D:
You cannot do so, since you must be on the ground in order to be prone.
But what if I want to benefit from Prone Shooter while flying? D:You cannot do so, since you must be on the ground in order to be prone.
You don't really benefit from prone shooter ever, but I think he knew that.
Can a creature/character with natural or magical flight be knocked prone?Not when they're flying. You can mess with a creature in the ways detailed in the Fly skill, which might make them fall, but you can't make a flying creature prone. Or a swimming or burrowing or climbing creature, for that matter.
Praise be your search fu!
I think I'll go with the idea that a failed save makes the dragon fall 10 feet (in addition to any he may fall for taking damage). Seems reasonable. More so than plummet instantly or being simply unaffected.