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I apologize for the National Inquirer title, but I've got a strange situation on my hands.
Recently, in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game, a player got their hands on a Harrow deck of many things and pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about.
So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
This is the most tightly guarded secret in all of Golarion, from what I hear. This is one of the most sought after pieces of information in the universe of Pathfinder... and now only two people know. Norgorber, and his cleric.
What do I do? I'm on the fence between having Norgorber come down to berate his follower and having Norgorber promote his follower, and I'm unsure of who Norgorber was before he ascended. The worst part is that this information is actually extremely pertinent to the future of my campaign... so I need to be able to craft it right!
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
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I apologize for the National Inquirer title, but I've got a strange situation on my hands.
Recently, in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game, a player got their hands on a Harrow deck of many things and pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about.
So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
This is the most tightly guarded secret in all of Golarion, from what I hear. This is one of the most sought after pieces of information in the universe of Pathfinder... and now only two people know. Norgorber, and his cleric.
What do I do? I'm on the fence between having Norgorber come down to berate his follower and having Norgorber promote his follower, and I'm unsure of who Norgorber was before he ascended. The worst part is that this information is actually extremely pertinent to the future of my campaign... so I need to be able to craft it right!
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
have Norgorber show up and smite him down for questioning his gods history/authority
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Say "he flew."
That's one.
If you're feeling generous, his name was "Norman Gerber."
well power lies in secrets with that religion... my suggestion would be let the player have some fun with the power, allow his spells to be empowered or something of the like. let him have some fun, then have big daddy norberger send one of his heralds down the blank the secret from his mind.
norgerber wants the secret kept so this would be a way for the player to be rewarded for out of the box thinking(at least for a little while) and at then when it gets taken away its not like he can complain as keeping that secret.. well secret is a holy tenant, so he kinda overstepped his bounds in the first place, so he can count himself lucky he didnt just get smote.
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have Norgorber show up and smite him down for questioning his gods history/authorityI apologize for the National Inquirer title, but I've got a strange situation on my hands.
Recently, in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game, a player got their hands on a Harrow deck of many things and pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about.
So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
This is the most tightly guarded secret in all of Golarion, from what I hear. This is one of the most sought after pieces of information in the universe of Pathfinder... and now only two people know. Norgorber, and his cleric.
What do I do? I'm on the fence between having Norgorber come down to berate his follower and having Norgorber promote his follower, and I'm unsure of who Norgorber was before he ascended. The worst part is that this information is actually extremely pertinent to the future of my campaign... so I need to be able to craft it right!
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
The PC in question is the "chosen one." Norgorber is betting everything on this one PC and his group of friends.
When Dou Bral became Zon-Kuthon, he still had a shred of his humanity left deep within his soul. It ached him whenever he spoke to Shelyn or thought of his father, the Prince that Howls, and Zon-Kuthon hated it. In order to imprison his heart forever in a place where it would never bother him-- for his heart, if ever destroyed, would kill him forever-- Zon-Kuthon took part of the eternal shadow, the ideal shadow he had won from Abadar, and crafted a monster from it to contain his heart. This monster was the blue dragon Kazavon, who immortally regenerates whenever he is killed. The players will face down Kazavon at the end of the campaign in order to stop him from leading Zon-Kuthon's armies into the material plane to conquer and destroy the world.
Norgorber is betting on this cleric killing Kazavon for him, while he helps the other good gods subdue Zon-Kuthon, who has finally made manifest to try to stop the PCs from freeing his heart. When it's all done and over and Zon-Kuthon has become Dou Bral again-- or been destroyed by the PCs, their choice-- Norgorber can bow down and act the redeemed god who has given so much for this to happen and will plead mercy. The good gods will grant him mercy so that he may leave, and Norgorber snatches up the eternal shadow and leaves.
Basically, the entire campaign is a ploy for Norgober to take over the hinterlands of Zon-Kuthon, and to absorb Zon-Kuthon's clergy and domains into his own.
Killing this cleric would put a _significant_ damper on that plan... but I'm not sure if Norgorber would be able to keep his composure or not.
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...pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about... the player, being a cleric of Norgorber, asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
Hmmm, I wouldn't have been so generous; I'd have interpreted his request as two pieces of info. >:)
I was always an evil GM when it came to twisting Wishes. If it was me, I'd grant the knowledge... but anytime he ponders the answer, it keeps slipping through his "mental grasp" and fades into the background. On rare occasions when he does manage to hold onto a chunk, he starts to laugh like mad (think Mark Hamill's Joker laugh from the Batman: The Animated Series.)
Or, the answer comes to him like how Heath Ledger's Joker explains his scarred rictus: A completely different origin and history every time. Sure, the PC got the right answer about Norgorber, but he also got thousands of wrong answers too.
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sounds like a tasty plotline.
Perhaps the cleric is in the running for herald of N, or will take on an aspect on N's portfolio, perhaps the secret keeper face..
This way, N's original identity is meaningless, and the method of defeating the Starstone worked the once and never again
Alternatively, make him a Cassandra. He knows the truth, but is cursed forever to never be believed. That'll add in some deific malfeasance
Alternatively, perhaps finding that 'ultimate secret' pleases Zoidberg ..... err Norgorber and sooner or later this Cleric will be facing Divine Assimilation, ie the Deity rewards the Cleric with the (so-called) ultimate reward, by taking the Cleric directly into the God-Hood itself.
Really, all this will do is devour the Cleric and give Ngb a trifling power-boost, but for one of the faithful ... supposed access to every secret that their God has ever known would be an ultimate reward, given the bent of Norgorber's cult!
...pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about... the player, being a cleric of Norgorber, asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
Hmmm, I wouldn't have been so generous; I'd have interpreted his request as two pieces of info. >:)
I was always an evil GM when it came to twisting Wishes. If it was me, I'd grant the knowledge... but anytime he ponders the answer, it keeps slipping through his "mental grasp" and fades into the background. On rare occasions when he does manage to hold onto a chunk, he starts to laugh like mad (think Mark Hamill's Joker laugh from the Batman: The Animated Series.)
Or, the answer comes to him like how Heath Ledger's Joker explains his scarred rictus: A completely different origin and history every time. Sure, the PC got the right answer about Norgorber, but he also got thousands of wrong answers too.
I approve of this.
I apologize for the National Inquirer title, but I've got a strange situation on my hands.
Recently, in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game, a player got their hands on a Harrow deck of many things and pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about.
So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
This is the most tightly guarded secret in all of Golarion, from what I hear. This is one of the most sought after pieces of information in the universe of Pathfinder... and now only two people know. Norgorber, and his cleric.
What do I do? I'm on the fence between having Norgorber come down to berate his follower and having Norgorber promote his follower, and I'm unsure of who Norgorber was before he ascended. The worst part is that this information is actually extremely pertinent to the future of my campaign... so I need to be able to craft it right!
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
I think he's slipped up by asking for two pieces of information. Perhaps knowing both secrets is too much for any mere mortal - he can't know both at once. Therefore he knows there's something in his head but he can't quite grasp the significance. This can also let you drip-feed bits of information in the form of maddening half-remembered fragments.
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Alternatively, perhaps finding that 'ultimate secret' pleases Zoidberg ..... err Norgorber and sooner or later this Cleric will be facing Divine Assimilation, ie the Deity rewards the Cleric with the (so-called) ultimate reward, by taking the Cleric directly into the God-Hood itself.
Really, all this will do is devour the Cleric and give Ngb a trifling power-boost, but for one of the faithful ... supposed access to every secret that their God has ever known would be an ultimate reward, given the bent of Norgorber's cult!
Plant a seed, let it grow tall with experience, and ripen with the world's secrets. Tend to it carefully, tying up the branches to supports, see that it has all the water and fertilizer it needs, and kill any puny pests that try to harm it. Then when your heirloom tomato is red, juicy, and extra-tasty... NOM! A yummy Caprese salad. :) Oh wait, we were discussing the PC...
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Alternatively, make him a Cassandra. He knows the truth, but is cursed forever to never be believed. That'll add in some deific malfeasance
This is the route that I would go with, or alternatively he finds it out and after that brief moment of realization, it slips away but he's damned with the knowledge that he once had that secret and lost it. Like Lovecraft's 'Pole Star' no longer whispering anything except that it once had a secret to tell.
I think I might do this: the cleric knows the Secret, but can never tell anyone about it, that is, if he tells someone, either they will not believe it, or promptly forget.
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His question asked for more than one bit of information and invalidates the response.
Or just tell him Norgorber's name before assending was Norgorber.
Alternatively have the knowledge drive the character mad, like being hit with the insanity spell. A Greater Restoration, Miracle or Wish can remove the insanity, but only at the cost of removing the secret in the process.
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If I am not mistaken deities know when their name is being used, I bet he would intervene to keep it secret and probably punish the cleric or compliment him depending on how generous he feels that day.
He might even feed the cleric false information instead to test the cleric's faithfulness, watching closely how he is going to use this particular bit of information (even though it is prolly not true)
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I'd have the god reward his faithful (nosy) follower by granting him a new ability: He cannot be magically forced to reveal anything against his interests. When suffering torture or coercive interrogation, the priest also gains a +15 profane bonus to Bluff.
Norgorber would also let the priest know that his blood will spontaneously transform into thousands of fiendish rot grubs if he shares the god's secret in any fashion.
"Silence is golden, my friend..."
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I would simply rule that the answers to those questions are not available. The deck of many things is an artifact, to be sure, albeit a minor one, but its power is not sufficient to overcome the deity-level protections that Norgorber most likely has in place to protect his secrets. Being a god of secrets, his are probably better guarded than any, and he most likely took precautions against so simple a method. I would rule that the Starstone itself has similar layers of protection against even artifact-level divination, whether due to its own power, some lingering power of Aroden's, or even a blanket effort by all the gods who do not want mortals to easily be able to figure out how it is done and raise to godhood themselves.
On another note, my players decided, once they found out that Norgorber was an ascended deity, that he was some punk kid who became bitter and evil because everyone always picked on him for having such a stupid name. They like to say "The name's Norgorber, man!" in the same way Lee Evans' character said "The name's Norm, man!" in There's Something About Mary. :P
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I would simply rule that the answers to those questions are not available. The deck of many things is an artifact, to be sure, albeit a minor one, but its power is not sufficient to overcome the deity-level protections that Norgorber most likely has in place to protect his secrets. Being a god of secrets, his are probably better guarded than any, and he most likely took precautions against so simple a method.
+1.
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I would simply rule that the answers to those questions are not available. The deck of many things is an artifact, to be sure, albeit a minor one, but its power is not sufficient to overcome the deity-level protections that Norgorber most likely has in place to protect his secrets. Being a god of secrets, his are probably better guarded than any, and he most likely took precautions against so simple a method.+1.
agreed
lets be real... if anyone learned his secret, as god of murder he would murder not only the body... but the offending soul... NO ONE should learn his secret!!! a secret is worthless once is out there, the cleric has no true way of protecting it...
other clerics would try to grab it from him, wizards and spionics would try to rip his mina in search for it.
it simply something that must not be known
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If you really want to blow his mind, have the name be the cleric's own...
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I agree with Meepo. If anything the player should be rewarded for asking something that makes good sense to the character.
You could consider offering him some sort of pact like those presented in Elves of Golarion. Nethys' Terrible Secret would be ideal with a simple name change. Some of the curses that oracles can choose may also be good inspiration.
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Give four different names and descriptions.
One for the Gray Master, one for Blackfingers, one for the Reaper of Reputation and one for Father Skinsaw.
Further research, or perhaps directly communing with Norgorber himself will unveil the terrible truth. Norgorber is far more evil than anyone ever suspected.
He's a committee.
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I certainly wouldn't just smack the PC down, but by seeking the answer to that question, he's made a terrible intrusion into his own god's secrets. I'd definitely start giving the cleric signs of Norgorber's displeasure. And if he ever tries to reveal what he learned, strike him dumb. If he persists in trying, which would be a critical breach of his faith, then strike him down with extreme prejudice.
I'd also retcon to tell the player that he can have one of those pieces of information - who he was or how he ascended to the test of the Star Stone not both. He really was asking two questions, the way I see it.
The really tricky part here, and you've pretty much brought it up, is how to make the information really interesting for your player and the campaign as well as impress upon the player just how serious the situation is knowing that secret. Giving Norborber the same name as the cleric PC could be pretty good - a time paradox idea. Let him even know for certain that it is him in some way and let him chew on that for a while.
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I'm rather disappointed to see so many people advocating that a GM arbitrarily kill a PC for daring to ask a clever question. If my GM gave my character a one-shot divination ability whose full ramifications he didn't anticipate, then smacked me down as if I were doing something wrong when I used that ability in a fairly straightforward way, I'd pack up my things and leave the game, right then and there.
why would the god of murder and secrets part with his MOST powerful secret?
really its about logic? its not a smart question... is a cheap one to know one of the mayor secrets of the game revealed by some minor artifact...he could have asked about Aroden's fate... yet the books mention that there is no forth coming answer for that (mostly madness, yes)... then why would Norberto... i mean Norgorber have it other way?
I may kill such a character in game, but I would prize such player in game... with his next character :P, of course... he could try to take stepts to try to get that knowledge out of his head... or maybe no other name he is able to keep... surely Norgorber name is like the 8th spell...
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So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
I'd reply, as the GM, with an answer that's more mysterious than the original one. Said cleric would have visions of multiple shapes across multiple times/dimensions followed by a clear vision of a (generic looking) baby being born. In said vision, there would be a clue, though, to the next adventure....
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A) Only one question should have been asked, so answer the first. (That's easier anyways)
B) If the cleric tells anyone how Norgorber passed the starstone test, he will be betraying a well-kept secret of his god, the diety of secrets, and should be punished by his god for doing such. If he doesn't tell, then there's no reason to worry. Norgorber would likely praise him for learning such a well-kept secret, but only if he can keep the secret.
Let the player make the choice, instead of DM fiat - no one believes you or remembers.
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...Norgorber is far more evil than anyone ever suspected.
He's a committee.
Atonement for his followers involves a grueling series of Webinar sessions.
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Atonement for his followers involves a grueling series of Webinar sessions....Norgorber is far more evil than anyone ever suspected.
He's a committee.
What? No ropes courses?
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why would the god of murder and secrets part with his MOST powerful secret?
really its about logic? its not a smart question... is a cheap one to know one of the mayor secrets of the game revealed by some minor artifact...he could have asked about Aroden's fate... yet the books mention that there is no forth coming answer for that (mostly madness, yes)... then why would Norberto... i mean Norgorber have it other way?
So, what you're saying is.... Norgorber used to be Aroden... and he discovered the secret to time travel, went mad, travelled back in time, passed the test of the Starstone again and became Norgorber? Wow, wish I'd thought of that.
:P
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I apologize for the National Inquirer title, but I've got a strange situation on my hands.
Recently, in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game, a player got their hands on a Harrow deck of many things and pulled out the card that allows them to know any one bit of knowledge that they ask about.
So, the player, being a cleric of Norgorber... asked how Norgorber ascended to the Starstone, and who he was before he ascended.
This is the most tightly guarded secret in all of Golarion, from what I hear. This is one of the most sought after pieces of information in the universe of Pathfinder... and now only two people know. Norgorber, and his cleric.
What do I do? I'm on the fence between having Norgorber come down to berate his follower and having Norgorber promote his follower, and I'm unsure of who Norgorber was before he ascended. The worst part is that this information is actually extremely pertinent to the future of my campaign... so I need to be able to craft it right!
So... anyone have any bright ideas?
I am not in the camp that sees this as a problem at all.
1. It's a major point in your campaign.
2. You have a player who is both a cleric of Norgorber and is interested enough in this to use a major unique magic effect to get it.
If this were a movie or other piece of fiction, this is exactly the guy who DOES get to know it, not an annoying worm to be slapped down. That's storytelling 101 but apparently a lot of people skipped that class in DM school.
The main problem seems to be deciding for yourself what it is. And you know you had to figure it out sooner or later if it's a major plot point in your campaign. But once you do, tell him! He's not going to tell anyone else- he's a cleric of fricking Norgorber - if he does whisper a word of it, it's eternal flensing time.
And just because he knows the secret doesn't automatically mean he can replicate it... Though it would be worth trying. (I personally look forward to someone, someday, in one of our group's Golarion campaigns becoming a god. That's what we call "a great campaign ending.")
In one fell swoop this guy's become a major player - both favored of Norgorber, but also watched like a fricking hawk...
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He is actually Aroden. He never died.
"When Aroden walked the world disguised, he took on one of twelve guises: beggar, thief, fisherman, hunter, shepherd, farmer, soldier, merchant, tailor, craftsman, artist, and scholar."
He was known for disguising himself. This then is the great secret his trusted few followers know of. This is also why Norgorber would be undone if it is found out.
Now the reasoning why this is, is well up to you. He is bi-polar? Cursed? Playing both sides of the field? Secretly good. Always was evil? The possibilities are endless.
The best part, the PC has no frakking clue. That was not his question.
Just my two copper.
The true name of Norgy: Duane Dibbley.
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It sounds like you've got some pretty epic storylines in the making, so it's a good thing you're taking the time to think this through.
I agree, killing off the PC would not be the best option in this case. It would punish the PC for using resources in a creative an unexpected way. It probably also would ruin a lot of potential adventure seeds for the game. Promoting the PC to godhood under Norgorber probably would do the same thing (remove the PC from play).
Instead, this might be seen as a great opportunity for more adventure developments. What can Norgorber gain from this? Are there any people, or other creatures, that still know about his mortal life? Perhaps he can send in the cleric and company to take them down? Make this obviously resourceful cleric an offer he can't refuse, and use it to Norgorber's advantage. And perhaps somewhere along the line you could relate it back to the main quest?
Now that the question of Norgorber's mortal identity has been raised, you probably should decide on it. If not for this campaign, then maybe it could be used for later ones. Their use of the Harrow Deck suggests this might be something your players are really interested in finding out.
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In becoming a god, Norgorber had to give up not merely his mortal life and the powerbase he'd assembled as a mortal, but also his very name.
It's not a secret because he's hiding it, it's a secret because he was forced to abandon it as a price to become a god, leaving behind all that he had treasured and taken pride in as a man, to become something more, to surrender to the Starstone everything that had ever been important to him, for a chance at something vastly greater.
In learning the name, the Cleric is fulfilling a long-held goal of Norgorber to reclaim as a god the things that gave him the strength of purpose to enter and win the Trial in the first place. He was forced to abandon these things, but he will not rest until he has reclaim his name and past glories, and the Cleric, through uncovering his 'secret,' will have a chance to reclaim the treasures and resources that he had amassed as a mortal guildmaster of thieves and political powerhouse.
Norgorber knows that he cannot personally reclaim his mortal glories, that this was the price he paid for godhood, but by allowing one of his mortal worshippers to reclaim those things, the resources and influences and principalities once under his sway will return to his control-by-proxy, and once more come under his dominion.
Take everything. Leave nothing behind.
The true name of Norgy: Duane Dibbley.
"Look what it did to me! It's turned me into Duane Dibbley — the Duke of Dork"
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Sorry to necro such an old thread but... This just sounds too cool. Do you have any cool stories of what happened in the campaign?
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Point of fact with that issue. Norgorber is one random mortal on one tiny planet within the limitless material plane who attained a divine spark with an artifact not even three thousand years ago. The Deck of Many Things is an artifact created by chaos itself an unknown amount of time ago.
So why exactly would this tiny godling who's known by maybe a billion mortals on this planet have the power to deny this ancient artifact of chaos which is created pretty much specifically by chaos itself to throw wrenches into, well, everything? It seems to me the Deck of Many Things was designed precisely to upset plans like this. It is the quintessential Spanner in the Works and the type of thing that should make Norgorber sweat thinking about someone on his...
I like this... I like this... here's another wild tangent:
real world population basically increased 100 millions (from 300 millions to 400 millions) in 1250 years (1 AD to 1250 AD).
It pretty much stayed the same for a whole long while... then pretty much EXPLODED after WWII i.e. atomic age... hmmm...
Raw Data for Above Graphs
Year Population in billions
1 0.30
1000 0.31
1250 0.40
1500 0.50
1750 0.79
1900 1.65
1910 1.75
1920 1.86
1930 2.07
1940 2.30
1950 2.52
1960 3.02
1970 3.70
1980 4.44
1990 5.27
2000 6.06
2010 6.79
2020 7.5
2030 8.11
2040 8.58
2050 8.91
I think Norgorber's secret is E=MC^2 and instead of collaborating with the U.S. err... Andoran, he basically went nuts and swore never to spill them beans... :)
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Give four different names and descriptions.
One for the Gray Master, one for Blackfingers, one for the Reaper of Reputation and one for Father Skinsaw.
Further research, or perhaps directly communing with Norgorber himself will unveil the terrible truth. Norgorber is far more evil than anyone ever suspected.
He's a committee.
That's the way I'd go.