I have a player that wants to play an inquisitor character in a lvl 7 campaign as a mountain lion lycanthrope (lycanthrope template with leopard as the animal, base human). As I understand the Monsters as PC rules this makes her a base CR 3 creature, so her level would be 5, staying a permanent 2 levels behind the rest of the party. In exchange, she gets the ability to take animal form, DR 10 silver, and the ability to replace her base stats with the rather impressive ones of a leopard. She also gets the +2 Wis, -2 Cha of a lycanthrope in addition to her +2 Wis bonus for beng human as far as I can tell. I'm not entirely certain what this means for her character. She's 2 levels behind the rest of the party, true, but she's got 10 DR vs silver that I can't think of a way to bypass without being obvious about it :P. Add to that that she's got a Wis of 22 and no physical stat below 17 when in hybrid form and I wonder if she's unbalancing. Am I wrong to let her play this character or is the 2 levels really going to offput the advantages?
I'm having a hard time answering you on this one, because I'm not sure what the relevant power level is in your campaign. High stats are impressive but not broken in and of themselves unless they have the right feats/build to back it up.
All in all, I've allowed similar things in my game before, just keep an eye on it. Ask your party what they think about it privately if you're seriously concerned, see what they say. Run a few mock combats with the lycanthrope in the party and see how it performs next to the other players.
Its good that you're thinking about game balance, as its your responsibility... but I think it would probably work out all right. I don't see a serious problem here, though, and a permanent two level lag should do the trick. If she starts getting whipped up on real bad let her catch up some, if the opposite slow her down a bit.
Alternatively, if she just wants to play a were-leopard you could make a no adjustment race just for the player (Vanilla Human with no extra skill points/feat... and give her an alternate form with +2-+4 Str and Dex).
Just my two cents.
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I was playing an ogre fighter PC. He was also 2 levels behind the party due to base CR3. I will admit that I like a good crunch in a character build and am guilty of min/max sometimes. That being said, I self nerfed this PC, he was WAY unbalancing combat. It seems, IMO, that this mountain lion lycanthrope build is even more powerful. Even if you nerfed the 10 DR vs silver.
But…….. if it is more important for story and flow, and you can deal with it, let her play it.
The are also campaign opportunities to be had. Sure, after one or two sessions, she's doing far better than the rest, but if some bad guys survive, rumors of the "Woman-Cat Adventurer" start to spread, and then you get fun things like a Hunter hired to capture and bring back this "Shapeshifter" to a wizard with a need for sentient components and a morality that sees nothing wrong with "farming". Or a follower of Rovagug, sent to see if she can forcibly "persuaded" to "come to her senses" and join the winning side. Or a cleric of Zon-Kuthon, grabbed by an obsession with measuring pain and a desire to see where lycanthrope species rank on that list-- Oh, there's one nearby? Perfect!
Then again, if the group is more "roll" than "role", the differences she may be making in the average numbers might make where they land in the rankings seem unsatisfactory.
I await the day I can play my Werebear Monk again.
The are also campaign opportunities to be had. Sure, after one or two sessions, she's doing far better than the rest, but if some bad guys survive, rumors of the "Woman-Cat Adventurer" start to spread, and then you get fun things like a Hunter hired to capture and bring back this "Shapeshifter" to a wizard with a need for sentient components and a morality that sees nothing wrong with "farming". Or a follower of Rovagug, sent to see if she can forcibly "persuaded" to "come to her senses" and join the winning side. Or a cleric of Zon-Kuthon, grabbed by an obsession with measuring pain and a desire to see where lycanthrope species rank on that list-- Oh, there's one nearby? Perfect!
Then again, if the group is more "roll" than "role", the differences she may be making in the average numbers might make where they land in the rankings seem unsatisfactory.
I await the day I can play my Werebear Monk again.
Memori has it. This depends on how in sync your particular group is, and whether or not they would abuse an advantage like that DR, which I think MORE than makes us for the lost two levels. The character is going to have a fairly ridiculous Will Save as well, from the sounds of it. Might be too much.
I would like to strongly suggest Sean K Reynold's Curse of the Moon book. It simplifies lycanthropes and is generally really good.
Here's a good excerpt.
Basically you can end up with a +0 CR template which I'd treat as LA+0 as well. Instead of DR/silver you get a pool of "moon hit points" above and beyond your normal pool. So even if someone sets you on fire you're hardier than a mundane human. (That's one of the ways DR has always failed the lycanthrope canon... they're supposed to be generally harder to kill unless you have silver. Not silver or any form of magic.)
The SKR book is available a few places and is really reasonably priced. It contains a bunch of feats that let you customize your lycanthropes and it has cleaner rules for controlling your shape than introducing a new skill.
I use it exclusively when working with lycanthropes.
Actually, the stats aren't as high as you would think.
Here are the links that I'm using for reference:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-l/lycanthrope
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat/leopard
It says 'In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.'
So, you don't add the ability score changes to what she already has, she either gains leopard stats of Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15 or keeps her standard stats. That means the only perminant stat increases that she gets are +2 Any one from being human, +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms and +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms (I'm assuming this is after finding if the character's standard strength or the animal's is higher).
So, there should be no way the character has Physical scores of all 17 or higher even in animal form unless she rolled some absurd stats or min/maxed to abuse the 'use the highest stat' rules.
As for dealing with the character's DR 10/Silver, energy attacks affect her normally, and enemies who get away from her might warn others of her immunities. Also, it will take a while, but magic weapons of +3 or higher bypass DR/Silver.
The are also campaign opportunities to be had. Sure, after one or two sessions, she's doing far better than the rest, but if some bad guys survive, rumors of the "Woman-Cat Adventurer" start to spread, and then you get fun things like a Hunter hired to capture and bring back this "Shapeshifter" to a wizard with a need for sentient components and a morality that sees nothing wrong with "farming". Or a follower of Rovagug, sent to see if she can forcibly "persuaded" to "come to her senses" and join the winning side. Or a cleric of Zon-Kuthon, grabbed by an obsession with measuring pain and a desire to see where lycanthrope species rank on that list-- Oh, there's one nearby? Perfect!
Then again, if the group is more "roll" than "role", the differences she may be making in the average numbers might make where they land in the rankings seem unsatisfactory.
I await the day I can play my Werebear Monk again.
There is that. The fact that natural lycans turn people into afflicted lycans on their bite attack would probably cause angry mobs to form spontaneously around her character if she lets it get revealed that she is one. I'll make sure she knows about this but I'll definitely take advantage if she's not careful *evil grin*. I'm just worried 'cause everyone in this party is close to completely new to Pathfinder and 3.5. Idk how any of them are going to play their characters :/
Actually, the stats aren't as high as you would think.
Here are the links that I'm using for reference:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-l/lycanthrope
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat/leopardIt says 'In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.'
So, you don't add the ability score changes to what she already has, she either gains leopard stats of Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15 or keeps her standard stats. That means the only perminant stat increases that she gets are +2 Any one from being human, +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms and +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms (I'm assuming this is after finding if the character's standard strength or the animal's is higher).
So, there should be no way the character has Physical scores of all 17 or higher even in animal form unless she rolled some absurd stats or min/maxed to abuse the 'use the highest stat' rules.
As for dealing with the character's DR 10/Silver, energy attacks affect her normally, and enemies who get away from her might warn others of her immunities. Also, it will take a while, but magic weapons of +3 or higher bypass DR/Silver.
The +2 str and con when in animal form are the ones that do it. They put the leopard's stats at str 18, dex 19, and con 17
The +2 str and con when in animal form are the ones that do it. They put the leopard's stats at str 18, dex 19, and con 17Actually, the stats aren't as high as you would think.
Here are the links that I'm using for reference:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-l/lycanthrope
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat/leopardIt says 'In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.'
So, you don't add the ability score changes to what she already has, she either gains leopard stats of Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15 or keeps her standard stats. That means the only perminant stat increases that she gets are +2 Any one from being human, +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms and +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms (I'm assuming this is after finding if the character's standard strength or the animal's is higher).
So, there should be no way the character has Physical scores of all 17 or higher even in animal form unless she rolled some absurd stats or min/maxed to abuse the 'use the highest stat' rules.
As for dealing with the character's DR 10/Silver, energy attacks affect her normally, and enemies who get away from her might warn others of her immunities. Also, it will take a while, but magic weapons of +3 or higher bypass DR/Silver.
Ahh, I can't believe I didn't account for that part XD
Hmm, let me check the level adjustment rules...here, it says 'Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster's overall PC levels'. I think that means she's going to be 3 levels behind the party, not 2. I think that might balance it a bit, and she is going to NEED that DR/10 to survive her first few levels.
The +2 str and con when in animal form are the ones that do it. They put the leopard's stats at str 18, dex 19, and con 17Actually, the stats aren't as high as you would think.
Here are the links that I'm using for reference:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-l/lycanthrope
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat/leopardIt says 'In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.'
So, you don't add the ability score changes to what she already has, she either gains leopard stats of Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15 or keeps her standard stats. That means the only perminant stat increases that she gets are +2 Any one from being human, +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms and +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms (I'm assuming this is after finding if the character's standard strength or the animal's is higher).
So, there should be no way the character has Physical scores of all 17 or higher even in animal form unless she rolled some absurd stats or min/maxed to abuse the 'use the highest stat' rules.
As for dealing with the character's DR 10/Silver, energy attacks affect her normally, and enemies who get away from her might warn others of her immunities. Also, it will take a while, but magic weapons of +3 or higher bypass DR/Silver.
Ahh, I can't believe I didn't account for that part XD
Hmm, let me check the level adjustment rules...here, it says 'Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster's overall PC levels'. I think that means she's going to be 3 levels behind the party, not 2. I think that might balance it a bit, and she is going to NEED that DR/10 to survive her first few levels.
Keep reading that section though. The level difference is closed by 1 for every 3 levels beyond her CR the campaign is. So at lvl 7 the level gap closes by 1. This closing of the gap only happens a number of times equal to her CR/2 rounded down though, so the gap won't close anymore and her level adjustment will remain a permanent 2
Keep reading that section though. The level difference is closed by 1 for every 3 levels beyond her CR the campaign is. So at lvl 7 the level gap closes...
For some reason I thought you were running a level 5 campaign, that's why I didn't mention that part. Oh well, this is what I get for trying to make recommendations on little sleep. I will just point out that you're only really supposed to lower the level adjustment if it turns out that the monster character is lagging behind the other players, so if she ends up being as powerful as you're thinking she's going to be, I would raise the level adjustment right back up to 3.
Personally, I don't like a system which lets a monster character completely eliminate his level adjustment, because then he ends up being the same level as everyone else in addition to having higher stats, damage reduction, and natural armor. I let monster characters in my group buy their levels back by paying in feats and ability increases that they would be normally gaining, that way their abilities have at least cost something.
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Keep reading that section though. The level difference is closed by 1 for every 3 levels beyond her CR the campaign is. So at lvl 7 the level gap closes...For some reason I thought you were running a level 5 campaign, that's why I didn't mention that part. Oh well, this is what I get for trying to make recommendations on little sleep. I will just point out that you're only really supposed to lower the level adjustment if it turns out that the monster character is lagging behind the other players, so if she ends up being as powerful as you're thinking she's going to be, I would raise the level adjustment right back up to 3.
Personally, I don't like a system which lets a monster character completely eliminate his level adjustment, because then he ends up being the same level as everyone else in addition to having higher stats, damage reduction, and natural armor. I let monster characters in my group buy their levels back by paying in feats and ability increases that they would be normally gaining, that way their abilities have at least cost something.
I haven't done the math but I know you can't gain enough XP to go up more than one level per the rules, so doing away with the level adjustment eventually might just be because it doesn't make a difference at high enough levels(where the XP gap becomes irrelevant). Everyone in the party gets the same amount of XP, so barring some kind of negative level mechanic, someone several levels behind will catch up all the faster the higher the CR of the challenges, even if they can only gain enough XP to level once per session(or however the XP limitation works).
EDIT: I may be thinking of 3.5 regarding that XP limiter. Don't see anything about it in the character advancement section.
I haven't done the math but I know you can't gain enough XP to go up more than one level per the rules, so doing away with the level adjustment eventually might just be because it doesn't make a difference at high enough levels(where the XP gap becomes irrelevant). Everyone in the party gets the same amount of XP, so barring some kind of negative level mechanic, someone several levels behind will catch up all the faster the higher the CR of the challenges, even if they can only gain enough XP to level once per session(or however the XP limitation works).
EDIT: I may be thinking of 3.5 regarding that XP limiter. Don't see anything about it in the character advancement section.
Ahh, just so you know, the 'Players as Monsters' recommendations are in the Bestiary, not the core rulebook.
The way they recommend that it be done in pathfinder is that you count the monster CR as class levels. Since they are actual levels, the player can never catch up to the other players just via EXP.
The book also says that monstrous players may fall behind if left this way, so you way want to remove one negative level every three levels that the party advances via exp. It isn't a very exact science, especially since Pazio decided to not officially support monstrous players.
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I haven't done the math but I know you can't gain enough XP to go up more than one level per the rules, so doing away with the level adjustment eventually might just be because it doesn't make a difference at high enough levels(where the XP gap becomes irrelevant). Everyone in the party gets the same amount of XP, so barring some kind of negative level mechanic, someone several levels behind will catch up all the faster the higher the CR of the challenges, even if they can only gain enough XP to level once per session(or however the XP limitation works.Ah, but it is a negative level mechanic. A character who is a CR 3 monster race counts that CR 3 as 3 class levels, so he can never catch up to the other characters via experience since he counts as being 3 levels higher than he really is for the purpose of gaining levels.
That is, unless you let the player lose the level adjustment over time.
Fair point. I had my math all wrong(serves me right for not looking at the book first and being silly enough to think monsters would have lower levels).
The question of whether a monster stops being a big deal the higher the level of the campaign aside, lycanthropes can't use that formula. It's designed for monsters with hit dice and in Pathfinder, lycanthropes have the base creature's hit dice. I don't think the rules address or intend template creatures as player characters.
My personal suggestion would be not to bother with level adjustments at all. Instead, give all the players an equivalent template and treat the entire group as a higher APL. There will be some ridiculous combats, but if the combats are balanced for APL, this shouldn't happen too often as they gain less XP and will face larger challenges sooner.
I would like to strongly suggest Sean K Reynold's Curse of the Moon book. It simplifies lycanthropes and is generally really good.
Here's a good excerpt.
There is also the piece introduced in Dragon #313 about the shifter types, that broke them down into a class progression "Animal Ancestry" by Dean Poisso. I own a copy somewhere, but seeing as the magazine came out in '03, getting hands on that article may be a bit difficult, not to mention that it was a 3.5 article, which would make conversion into PF a brief undertaking. It was rewarding, however, because it broke down the stat adjustments into the varied levels of the classes as if they were classes. This was also done in Savage Species, but not as cleanly, IIRC. If I run across it, I'll toss it up here or in the Pathfinder Database so that it might help as a handy chart.
So if you were so inclined, you could try breaking the Lycanthrope into class levels by HD, treating it as a class that she must advance in before taking a core class. Granted, if she gets attribute bonuses, they'll have to be added into the levels as well, but it is doable.
Or just give the cat a lower point buy than the rest of the group.
*points at this*
Yea, they just happened to get runt of the litter in the party ;)
Actually, it would be interesting to come up with a variant of the point buy system for when your players are using monster races. Everyone could start with 25 or 30 point buy, and for every CR your starting race is, you lose 10 off of the point buy....
If done right, people could start at the same level and have roughly the same amount of power. Of course, it doesn't quite work right when super powerful abilities like DR 10/Silver and an instant stat increases from shifting get introduced. At that point, you can only even things out by making the player pay in traits and feats.
Edit: Alright, the more I think about it, the more I realize that this doesn't always work. Too many monsters have hit dice, and there are too many powerful abilities out there that can't really be accounted for just by paying with feats. It might work with a few weaker monsters that don't have tons of fancy abilities though.
The Monsters as PCs guidelines mentioned in this thread don't really work well in this instance as they were not written with templates in mind at all.
As such, I would recommend simply eye-balling it for balance problems while gaining continued input from your players.
Also, DR 10/silver isn't too much of a problem at high levels since it is bypassed by +3 or greater magical weapons. It might protect him well enough against beast encounters or against summons, however.
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Or just give the cat a lower point buy than the rest of the group.*points at this*
Yea, they just happened to get runt of the litter in the party ;)
Actually, it would be interesting to come up with a variant of the point buy system for when your players are using monster races. Everyone could start with 25 or 30 point buy, and for every CR your starting race is, you lose 10 off of the point buy....
If done right, people could start at the same level and have roughly the same amount of power. Of course, it doesn't quite work right when super powerful abilities like DR 10/Silver and an instant stat increases from shifting get introduced. At that point, you can only even things out by making the player pay in traits and feats.
The DR is a minor feature at higher levels when magic weapons are a given and most monsters do multiples of 10 damage in single round(sometimes with one attack). As it stands, the boost is pretty small. None of the stats go over 20 and it would be really expensive to get across the board magic items to keep enhancing your hybrid side equally. A 4th level human could buy comparable stats with 25 pts if he took mediocre mental stats. Compared to some animals, this one in particular is pretty balanced. Giving the players a slight stat boost keeps the cat from always stealing the combat spotlight.
I think you're absolutely right about the power of these abilities at first level, but no one should start the game with a CR 3 character. By level 3, the DR makes a very poor substitute for two levels worth of hit points. By level 10, the werecat thing becomes little more than fluff. My opinion totally, I'm sure some GMs have been burned by min-maxing lycanthropes before.
Unless I am mistaken, the DR/10 silver only works while they are in hybrid or full lycanthrope form.
You should also think about what happens to their gear when they shift forms. What falls off, what is too small, etc.. Or will it be similar to a druid's wildshape ability?
Unless I am mistaken, the DR/10 silver only works while they are in hybrid or full lycanthrope form.
You should also think about what happens to their gear when they shift forms. What falls off, what is too small, etc.. Or will it be similar to a druid's wildshape ability?
From the lycanthrope section: 'Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid and hybrid form, but does between those forms and animal form. '
So, I guess it is assumed that all gear still works in hybrid form, no matter the size differences. I don't know if magical items and armor still function in animal form though....
I got afflicted werewolf lycanthrope on half orc scout 5/ war shaper 3 (effectively at level 9), that I have played with Bestiary rules. Bestiary tuned down the character nicely from 3,5 ages.
Lycanthropes Change Shape acts like polymorph spells. It should help understanding what bonuses from equipment work in animal form if you read pages 211-212 in Core Rulebook.
I would suggest making her afflicted lycanthrope instead of natural one.
DR5/Silver is useful early in the game. After level 10 it will start loosing the effect against humanoid opponents. DR10/Silver is too strong when adventuring with normal PC:s. She will seem to be unkillable against opponents relying on weapon and natural weapon damage. Afflicted lycanthrope also has to spend full round changing her form (instead of standard action).
Lycanthrope has awesome ability bonuses when in animal and hybrid forms. In humanoid form she is easily food for the worms.
If your campaign takes place near societies, she will have hard time using full potential of her character (if we assume lycanthropes to be seen as evil beasts). She will have to keep the secret from outsiders and has to kill anything she ends up biting or there is risk that the curse will be passed on the population.
Lycanthrope will always be behind with BaB, HitPoints, SkillPoints, feats etc. My lycanthrope has strength of 28 (animal/hybrid), but has BaB of 5 at level 9.
Bestiary suggests that lycanthropes must be evil by alignment. That will cause her also problems when animal form takes over the control. My dear doggie has been tearing flesh and eating still breathing enemies in front of his allies (and freed prisoners).
One more thing affecting her efficiency will be the need of spending actions on risky manouvers to change shape. DC:s are between 15-20, which is pretty risky with Con mod.+ d20 check.
Savage Species style level progression... (3.5E) -links below-
Also note the rules in the description(s) about being born a lycanthrope or being afflicted by one, it affects the max level allowed in the template.
Thaat looks about right.
I'm not so sold on the "immediate alignment shift" bit, unless it is a voluntary thing, but that's a matter that is open for discussion. Personally, I'm curious about what in particular dictates the alignment shift. Is it some magical/spiritual thing that derived from the first lycanthrope of that type? Mental strain, or the reconciling of the new animal nature that exists under the human psyche? What makes the bears good, while the wolves/rats are evil? Lingering magic?
...hmm.. There's an adventure there.
Incidentally, if anyone wants a Werebear Monk, drop me a line?
i'll be odd man out and suggest have them be a shifter from ebberon and have them take the 5 level prestige class that lets them mimic a full lycanthrope. then there is no pesky balance issues
I like this suggestion as well, but it may or may not be a lot more work creating house rules(for the DM) than just following the existing templates from 3.5E or flat-out saying No. Everyone wants happy players and a happy DM! :)
Thaat looks about right.
I'm not so sold on the "immediate alignment shift" bit, unless it is a voluntary thing, but that's a matter that is open for discussion. Personally, I'm curious about what in particular dictates the alignment shift. Is it some magical/spiritual thing that derived from the first lycanthrope of that type? Mental strain, or the reconciling of the new animal nature that exists under the human psyche? What makes the bears good, while the wolves/rats are evil? Lingering magic?
...hmm.. There's an adventure there.
Incidentally, if anyone wants a Werebear Monk, drop me a line?
Typical adventurers just want to smash monsters and save the wenches... err fair maidens, they usually don't care if said beastie is Neutral-Hungry or Eat-Babies-Evil... "If it bleeds, we can kill it."
When it comes to players and alignment, my experience tells me that a player (to include myself) is going to play a character however they want, regardless of what that one block at the top of the character sheet says. Alignment can be tedious and overwhelming if enforced too severely.
Point being, it's a player character, let them choose what their actions and motivations are, not the system. There are always exceptions to the rule... Individual is looking to be cured, finds religion, adopted/raised by a warm loving family, orphaned/raised by animals, etc.
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I did the werebear monk in "werewolf", it was fun and not really overpowered in that environment. Though in a world were dots(ability points) equals d6's of pain, werebears get approximately double the potential strength score that werewolves get. :D
Oh, no dispute there, I was just wondering about the original alignment of the lycanthropes.. It was a curse originally, I think? So how did the bears/tigers/boars avoid it? Is it tied to the vampires, perhaps?
Besides, I'm the inquisitive sort, as are most of the visitors to this board, I'd suspect. Knowing the original reasoning would just be a snippet of info to salve the curiosity.
Oh, no dispute there, I was just wondering about the original alignment of the lycanthropes.. It was a curse originally, I think? So how did the bears/tigers/boars avoid it? Is it tied to the vampires, perhaps?
Besides, I'm the inquisitive sort, as are most of the visitors to this board, I'd suspect. Knowing the original reasoning would just be a snippet of info to salve the curiosity.
LOL, no dispute meant, just me being pro-player I guess and alignment profiling kinda bugs me in a ROLE-playing environment. Inquiring minds always want to know!! :D
Werebears even had/have a different more specific name, though it escapes me at the moment. I believe it had something to due with their existance/origin and generally good intentions.
I'm not thinking about balance, a lot of people have posted about that. That will work itself out, but for the PC there could be other issues. I've skimmed through the thread and I think only one poster (Laerlorn) has mentioned the social aspects as an issue. In most games as soon as it's discovered she is a shifter the locals will begin checking the family silver for knives, buying torches and calling on the local Church / watch / authorities for help in dealing with this "monster" in their midst. Shifting is a hard secret to keep and lycanthropes aren't most peoples favorite neighbors. If I missed a discussion of it, sorry to retread old ground, but how are the locals going to take this?
You could always just make him a Tibbit from the Dragon Magazine Compendium...
heh. that's what i thought too. SNEAK ATTACK CLAWS!!!
When I saw the title I thought someone wanted to play a cat, like an awakened housecat or something similar. I imagine they would make good rogues, although specialized ones since the lack of opposable thumbs would make some rogue functions hard to impossible.
Take Minor Magic for mage hand, and allow them to take the silent spell/still spell feats. Haha, not so terribly impossible with some compromise on the players and GM's side.
Maybe force them to take a level of Arcane Trickster ASAP, or if the adventure starts high enough upon creation.
Ha, personally I think that'd be really fun.
Savage Species style level progression... (3.5E) -links below-
Wererat progression Werewolf progression Weretiger progression Wereboar progression Werebear progression Also note the rules in the description(s) about being born a lycanthrope or being afflicted by one, it affects the max level allowed in the template.
Those rules a pretty good, though for pathfinder I think the beast shape series of spells can manage the benefits of changing forms without requiring the character to take 6 levels of "tiger animal" class. Perhaps the character starts with a transformation that provide the benefits of beast shape I and can take feats to advance it to beast shape II and finally beast shape III to provide the pounce and rake abilities.
I would take the 3 template levels and tell the player that they can take levels in an NPC class to provide the HP, BAB, and saves, tied to those template levels. That way the lycanthrope character will not fall behind (much) over time. it will be as if they bought into a wacky prestige class.
I can see where you're coming from, and it helps that you're staying within the core for that, but depending on the type of lycanthropy, would they be losing out on the exchange (assuming they even know about it)? I'm not up on the merits of DR vs NA bonuses, but if a conversion of the template and lycanthrope classes are on the table I would take them all. I'm suspecting that part of the benefit of breaking them into classes is to make them more manageable, as well as giving the player some option in advancement, maybe illustrating the less-than-predictable nature of the curse.
How do you mean falling behind, though? The template class levels provide alternate forms and feats, while the animal class levels (if the player opts to take them) start to make up for what they lost, don't they? You get no BAB with the template levels, but you do get feats and DR which lasts until they start running into +3 magical weapons, and after 2 levels of the animal class, they've broken even in regards to BAB through the Stat increases, along with inheriting some qualities of the animal itself.
Of course, this still has to be brought in line with PF, but my math isn't off in saying the numbers balance themselves out (and maybe start to pull ahead?) am I?
I've got your solution right here.
I can see where you're coming from, and it helps that you're staying within the core for that, but depending on the type of lycanthropy, would they be losing out on the exchange (assuming they even know about it)? I'm not up on the merits of DR vs NA bonuses, but if a conversion of the template and lycanthrope classes are on the table I would take them all. I'm suspecting that part of the benefit of breaking them into classes is to make them more manageable, as well as giving the player some option in advancement, maybe illustrating the less-than-predictable nature of the curse.
How do you mean falling behind, though? The template class levels provide alternate forms and feats, while the animal class levels (if the player opts to take them) start to make up for what they lost, don't they? You get no BAB with the template levels, but you do get feats and DR which lasts until they start running into +3 magical weapons, and after 2 levels of the animal class, they've broken even in regards to BAB through the Stat increases, along with inheriting some qualities of the animal itself.
Of course, this still has to be brought in line with PF, but my math isn't off in saying the numbers balance themselves out (and maybe start to pull ahead?) am I?
well even with animal class levels they are still 3 levels behind a character of equal equivalent levels. That's 2-3 bab behind, perhaps a point or 2 of saves, and 3 HD. As the character levels, the DR becomes less useful, with the character facing creatures or weapons that bypass it (not an everyday occurrence, until waaaaay into the future). The bestiary guidelines account for this with reducing the equivalent levels over time.
My suggestion is to make the template levels into class levels essentially, by providing them with BAB, Saves, and HD, taken from an NPC class. This was suggested in Curse of the Crimson Throne for players who wanted to play tieflings as way of balancing out their EL+1 powers. IMHO its a great way to keep a monstrous character from falling behind on the stats.
A few years ago a friend of mine made a EL+2 drow for a Forgotten Realms game. He was constantly bothered by having a lower BAB and HP and found the character almost unplayable as we leveled further. The HP were a big problem, as he tended to go from full to near death in one round. Now a lycanthrope's DR will certainly make that less of an issue, and the character's attributes will certainly cover lost BAB but it still might be a good idea for the template to be tied to actual character levels, with all their component benefits.
I see what you're saying there. It makes sense. I agree.
The particulars can be hashed out by whoever is DM, but the NPC classes are so varied that there is no real satisfactory class. I honestly don't mind that, since it is a curse, after all. Perhaps a "generic" template for advancement so they're not left wanting so much--(edit:)
Got it. You could advance them as a creature type (p. 306, Bestiary) with the template levels, be it animal or humanoid, or magical beast if you're so inclined. *late lightbulb* I see what you did there.
Is your player hellbent on the character being an actual lycanthrope, or would they be fine with some sort of humanoid/anthropomorphic cat? Then you could maybe write up a race.
I didn't allow my players any monstrous races beyound CR1, and even those I rewrote. I nerfed their abilities to actually make them the same power-level as a CR 0 character and removed racial HP (mainly because Gnolls pretty much had no racial features beyound +1 natural armour and darkvision, while lizardfolk and trogs had way too much natural armour to ever make a balanced player character)
The +2 Wis, -2 Cha aren't a problem sure they give some builds a +4 racial to wisdom, but that's actually not that bad as long as enough negatives make it a +2 total.
What I would do, is make their hybrid and animal forms work differently, instead of getting all the animals stats that are higher than the character's own the lycanthrope gains +2 STR, +2 CON, as listed and an additional +2 to the base animals highest physical ability score (STR, DEX or CON), which would in the case at hand be Dexterity. This way you prevent the character from exploiting the animal ability scores when assigning her abilities. (meaning if she still wants good DEX, STR and CON, she'll have to put points there and can't just drop them and then go hybrid-form)
If you still feel it appropriate also reduce the DR to 5/silver.
This way CR3 seems appropriate to me
heh. that's what i thought too. SNEAK ATTACK CLAWS!!!
too bad an awakened housecat would be too small to flank and thus the character would lose its main source of sneak attack opportunities.
There is that. The fact that natural lycans turn people into afflicted lycans on their bite attack would probably cause angry mobs to form spontaneously around her character if she lets it get revealed that she is one. I'll make sure she knows about this but I'll definitely take advantage if she's not careful *evil grin*. I'm just worried 'cause everyone in this party is close to completely new to Pathfinder and 3.5. Idk how any of them are going to play their characters :/
Apologies if we've gotten derailed with options, since we're the sort that like kicking ideas around. Let me try to redress your issue.
-They're mostly new? That's actually a plus, especially if they're into their characters more than the game. Playing who their characters are may matter more than the numerical advantages/disadvantages. I'm not advising that you smack down the rollplayer (if you have one), but I would caution him to only give advice if asked, and allow the new players some edits if they wish. It is hard to play the character when there's someone scoffing at every choice you've made when they decide to pick up your sheet to see what "you could have done better".
-If she's dead set on playing a Leopard, once you find out how much the stats for the animal deviate (it was pointed out in a post above), should you choose to use the template links posted, adjustment is very easy, but since you've posed no questions regarding numerical fiddling, I'll assume you're savvy on that aspect. Break the benefits into levels using the templates, and you shouldn't have any balance issues.
-If you get stuck, give us a holler. We're handy like that. =D
Does anyone else have the song from The Aristocats stuck in their head from reading the thread title?
I clicked on this thread with a wildly different idea in mind.
awakened cat, Inquisitor (of Gozreh) 7
N Tiny animal
Init +8; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 16, flat-footed 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size, +2 armor, +2 deflection)
hp 49 (10d8)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +16 (1d2–2), bite +16 (1d3–2)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special attacks Judgement 3/day, bane weapon (7 rounds/day)
Spells Known (CL 5th)
3rd—(1/day) deeper darkness, heroism
2nd—(4/day) restoration, lesser, invisibility, darkness
1st—(5/day) cure light wounds, shield of faith, protection from evil, divine favor, expeditious retreat
0—light, detect magic, acid splash, stabilize, guidance, create water
STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +7/+2; CMB +7; CMD 13 (17 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claws), Improved Initiative, Lookout, Still Spell, Precise Strike
Skills Acrobatics +18 Climb +12, K. Religion +8, K. Nature +8, Perception +12, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +20; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Stealth
CLASS ABILITIES
Domain (animal), speak with animals (9 rounds/day), animal companion,
Monster lore, +Wis to Knowledge checks to identify creatures
Stern gaze, +half level to Intimidate checks
Cunning initiative, +Wis to Initiative
Detect alignment, detect good, evil, law, or chaos at will
Track
Discern Lies (7 rounds/day)
COMBAT GEAR
amulet of mighty fists +1, belt of giant strength +2, headband of wisdom +2, bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +2, cloak of resistance +1
heh. that's what i thought too. SNEAK ATTACK CLAWS!!!too bad an awakened housecat would be too small to flank and thus the character would lose its main source of sneak attack opportunities.
:/
:/heh. that's what i thought too. SNEAK ATTACK CLAWS!!!too bad an awakened housecat would be too small to flank and thus the character would lose its main source of sneak attack opportunities.
Solution! Pay a Wizard to research Enlarge Animal.