Just curious
why does heaven oracle not get Scintillating Pattern which would be effected by awesome display in keep with the whole illusion pattern spell thing.
but instead get prismatic spray which is evocation and only related via fluff description ?
or does awesome display + Scintillating Pattern = broken ?
I mean its not like you couldn't get this off a crafted staff for example.
Maybe just plain oversight?
don't know thats why I'm askin
one could even ask why don't divine casters have access to any illusion spells in their core list apart from silence ?
Because prismatic spray is more like a rainbow, which is a heavenly manifestation, whereas scintillating pattern has no real flavor link to the heavens at all.
fair enough , its just a shame the awsome display ability dosen't have any high end spell (illusion "pattern") to target.
I guess you can hieghten colour spray but you charisma mod can't really keep up with the HD increase of the enemies you face at higher levels.
Color Spray: A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand
Scintillating Pattern: A twisting pattern of coruscating colors weaves through the air
I agree with the OP, and I would thematically describe S.P. as a ¨Ball Rainbow put on Fast Forward¨.
Anyhow, I think it`s kind of pointless to discuss this, as it`s basically discussing the BETA ruleset, which the time for discussion of ended long ago. For all we know, the Heavans Oracle spell list DOES now include Scintilatting Pattern. Regardless, it seems that the repeated message from Paizo has been that new spells in the APG will make all of these types of combo ¨work¨.
I really did like the way Heavens Foci/Mystery was developed, though...
Hopefully it`s even better in the final product!
Anyhow, I think it`s kind of pointless to discuss this, as it`s basically discussing the BETA ruleset, which the time for discussion of ended long ago. For all we know, the Heavans Oracle spell list DOES now include Scintilatting Pattern.
JJ's post would suggest otherwise ;)
Personally I think it seems like a good idea to take a one lvl dip in heavens oracle, and then go sorcerer or wizard - You'll get color spray a full level sooner than you would have as an oracle, and have access to scintillating pattern
thats a depressing thought
only other way I figured an orcale could have scintillating pattern would be to use a staff of patterns , have S.P and color spray on it so the orcale can recharge the staff and at least get to cast it once a day.
on the plus side, that a good argument to a GM for a houserule on it hehehe
I agree with the OP, and I would thematically describe S.P. as a ¨Ball Rainbow put on Fast Forward¨.
Anyhow, I think it`s kind of pointless to discuss this, as it`s basically discussing the BETA ruleset, which the time for discussion of ended long ago. For all we know, the Heavans Oracle spell list DOES now include Scintilatting Pattern. Regardless, it seems that the repeated message from Paizo has been that new spells in the APG will make all of these types of combo ¨work¨.
I really did like the way Heavens Foci/Mystery was developed, though...
Hopefully it`s even better in the final product!
I hope they have nerfed the Heavens Foci/Mystery. I loved it but it was broken. Too damned good.
I hope they have nerfed the Heavens Foci/Mystery. I loved it but it was broken. Too damned good.I agree with the OP, and I would thematically describe S.P. as a ¨Ball Rainbow put on Fast Forward¨.
Anyhow, I think it`s kind of pointless to discuss this, as it`s basically discussing the BETA ruleset, which the time for discussion of ended long ago. For all we know, the Heavans Oracle spell list DOES now include Scintilatting Pattern. Regardless, it seems that the repeated message from Paizo has been that new spells in the APG will make all of these types of combo ¨work¨.
I really did like the way Heavens Foci/Mystery was developed, though...
Hopefully it`s even better in the final product!
broken how ?
All of their stuff are good. Class skills, their bonus spells where the best, their final revelation was just too good and most of their revelations where just too good - or shoudl I say too many of their revelation were too good. If one or two or even 3 are really good that would be fine, but most of them are really good. Stuff like, Awesome Display, Lure of the Heavens, Star Chart (commune once per day at no cost), Interstellar Void, Dweller in Darkness, Shooting Stars are all really powerful and useful.
Another way would be to boost the other Mysteries. I guess we will know soooooooon.
All of their stuff are good. Class skills, their bonus spells where the best, their final revelation was just too good and most of their revelations where just too good - or shoudl I say too many of their revelation were too good. If one or two or even 3 are really good that would be fine, but most of them are really good. Stuff like, Awesome Display, Lure of the Heavens, Star Chart (commune once per day at no cost), Interstellar Void, Dweller in Darkness, Shooting Stars are all really powerful and useful.
Another way would be to boost the other Mysteries. I guess we will know soooooooon.
will try keep this short, but will prob fail XD
in a nut shell disagree
skills: you can use traits to give any skill as class skill
spells: none of the spells on heavnes list would be first choice spells for my arcane caster, evocation is not as good as people think. all the bonus spells have saves AND Spell resistence agsinst them
Awsome display: near useless beyond 16th level , you cha mod does not get high enough to turn 16+HD critters down to 5 or less, even assuming optimal loot, sub optimal loot and it gets useless earlier.
You do not get scintllating pattern which would benefit
and fastinated creature are far from helpless
Lure of the Heaves: you don't leave tracks, druid gets that too, you hover 6 inches as levitate, but as levitate you can't travel horizaontally 6 inches above the ground so sitatuion usefulness, prob more cool factor than anything else.
fly speed for 10 minutes ? meh plenty of items can do this for you. hell you even get the overland flight spell making this ability fairly redundant
Star Chart
Free commun once per day ? really ? Do you really think this is going to let you glean more inforamtion than the GM wants to give you ? don't want to answer that "unclear" , what more if you gain info through commune the GM is simply giving you information you could have probably gained through other skill checks or NPC's.
If anything commune creates an opporunity for the DM to railroad you without you even knowing.
At best commune is handy for checking if you missed somthing in a dungeon or for getting som inside info on the monsters you might be facing, but if for example the commune told you your going to face a red dragon, so the wizard buffs the group with fire resistence and memorises cold spells. whats to stop him just buffing up the dragon to compensate without you knowing ?
GM's are neveer going to give you any info that going to turn something fun into a boring cakewalk ;)
Interstellar Void,
2x 1d6/level Su attack that can exhaust and stun ONE CREATURE. your hitting one the wizard is hitting 8 with his own 1d6/level spell. nice secondary effects but still allows a fort save. marginally better than any single target evocation spell, weaker than multiple target evocation spells.
Dweller in Darkness
ONCE PER DAY, phantasmal killer or werid. great spell to be sure but weaker than having them on your spell list. spell like ability so SR applies, bad roll on your part against SR and its wasted, whereas the wiz/sorc could try again.
Shooting Stars
The only thing going for this ability is the Ex , which allows it to bypass SR and pretty much effect any target. the multiple shots in a single round still only do 1 lot of dmg so only applicable if you need to hit target over a very wide area. d4 is hardly outstanding damage and you can't metamagic it, so at best its 20d4 for an average of 42dmg very meh at 20th level esp 21dmg on a save for half AND FIRE DMG you know how many high CR outsiders are immune to fire ?
At best I would class this as a fallback option when none of you high end spells will work against your target, otherwise why would you cast this over a 7th 8th or 9th level spell ?
at low levels this is a slightly better burning hands, at mid levels metamgic fireballs can do a significantly better job of fire dmg
point to another mystery list to compare to this and I'll prob be able to show you why heavens is not significantly more powerful.
Since the OP asked the question and JJ passed it over as Scintillating Pattern having no natural analogous phenomenon, I'd counter that I immediately thought of aurora when he mentioned the spell.
Aurora are a natural 'heavenly' phenomenon that captivates peoples attention. Sound like Scintillating Pattern to anyone else?
Awsome Display is both Awsome and overpowering...
care to back that up with some mathhammering ?
stuff
we disagree and that will not change.
"you can use traits to give any skill as class skill"
- Not all GM will let you pick them or even let you use traits.
"none of the spells on heavnes list would be first choice spells for my arcane caster"
- You are not an arcane caster.
"all the bonus spells have saves AND Spell resistence agsinst them"
- Most spell have.
"Awsome display: near useless beyond 16th level"
- Most campaigns don't run higher. Still very good.
"assuming optimal loot, sub optimal loot"
Powergamer? I'm not sure what you mean.
"fastinated creature are far from helpless"
They are not helpless, but that's not the point with the spell. It's not a "lets stun everyone" spell.
"Lure of the Heaves: you don't leave tracks, druid gets that too"
You are not a druid.
"you hover 6 inches as levitate, but as levitate you can't travel horizaontally 6 inches above the ground so sitatuion usefulness, prob more cool factor than anything else."
It doesn't you can't travel horizaontally ( I guess we need an FAQ on this). Even if you can't, an always on feather fall is very nice....and it's cool.
"fly speed for 10 minutes? meh plenty of items can do this for you. hell you even get the overland flight spell making this ability fairly redundant"
fly speed for 10 minutes for free. That's very nice and you save one spell and don't have to cast overland flight.
"Free commun once per day ? really ?" yes really. 500 gp is 500 gp and unless your GM is an *shole it will be useful.
"your hitting one the wizard is hitting 8 with his own 1d6/level spell. nice secondary effects but still allows a fort save."
A) You are not a wizard
B) There are many classes with weak fort saves.
"marginally better than any single target evocation spell, weaker than multiple target evocation spells."
It's not a spell and you are not an arcane caster.
"Dweller in Darkness ONCE PER DAY"
Yes, once per day and that's not bad.
"Shooting Stars The only thing going for this ability is the Ex , which allows it to bypass SR and pretty much effect any target"
Nothing will please you. "bypass SR and pretty much effect any target" is not good enough?
"how many high CR outsiders are immune to fire"
You can pick this at level 1. What's your problem? Most campaigns don't run to level 20 and not all high CR are outsiders and not all high CR outsiders are immune to fire. If you don't think the damage is enough you still get spells like chain lightning, sunburst and meteor swarm.
and again you are not an arcane caster.
we disagree and that will not change.
I hope they have nerfed the Heavens Foci/Mystery. I loved it but it was broken. Too damned good.
then let me sum up my argument into much simpler terms
Is Heavens Orcale more blasty than a wizard can be ? No
Is Heavens Orcale better at battlefield control than a wizard ? No
Is Heavens Orcale a better healer than Cleric ? No
you say its not a wizard, not a druid, not a cleric I agree its not, but you are saying its "too good", if that the case "too" what ? better than what ?
"too" good is a comparative phrase
perhaps you could list the classes you consider orcale to be too good in comparison to.
otherwise we might as well be discussing how "good" is a piece of string.
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Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Creatures affected by your illusion (pattern) spells are treated as if their total number of Hit Dice were equal to their number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive,minimum 1).Unlike the shooting stars this does not mention a saving throw.
Now at level 16 if you start with a 20 charisma, have used 4 stat increases for Charisma, have used a +4 book and have a +6 item you have a charisma of 34 which woudl be a 12 HD decrease in all your enemies.
Using a 15-20 point buy (typical in most games) there is no way you would have realistically more then a 16-18 Charima with 4 buffs unless you want to ignore all other stats and suffer a quick death by level 3. Also bonus' for stat raising magic items doesn't stack.
You start with an 18+4 buffs plus one item (we'll make it +6 to be generous)=28 at the most. Add eagles splendor you can get 32 but you very likely have other concerns.
Lets say you are fighting 3 level 16 fighters. They just became 4 HD fighters... Color spray and fight over with a first level spell. Heck if you want to blow magic Holy word and they are dead.
Now lets say that isntead of fighters they are full casters, do they get to cast their high level spells? Debateable but lets argue yes. Problem is their caster level is tied to their HD so you ust neutered the effect of most of their spells. Fear that 4d6 fireball.
The texts suggests that this effects how many HD the spell effects; not saves or hd or anything else. A sixteenth level caster counts as 4 hd for the number of HD effected. It has no effect on his damage her can deal. It doesn't effect that this is still a first level spell and the DC to resist will make it an easy save.
Now lets see how much damage you effecively do. For thsi example I will use a CR 16 Ancient Black Dragon. It si less effective on teh dragon then it is on a PC class since the dragon has more HD than it has CR (The corrolary of that is it is MORE effective on things with Higher CR than HD such as Half Celestials or other Templated creatures).
The CR 16 black dragon has 297 HP (22d12 +154). When under the effect of this he has 135 HP(10d12 + 70), you just stripped 162 HP from him and made him vulnerable to...
Again, the HP or damage dealing potential of the black dragon is uneffected. You have not stripped 162 hp from him.
Basically, with this spell you have a spell that can neutralise lots of minions if you're lucky. Big baddies will ignore it. Nuff said.
All the Best,
Kerney
Awesome Display (Su): Creatures affected by your illusion (pattern) spells are treated as if their total number of Hit Dice were equal to their number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier
Lets say you are fighting 3 level 16 fighters. They just became 4 HD fighters... Color spray and fight over with a first level spell.
I'm not sure this is right. Depending on how Display works, you've either got three 12-HD fighters, or two 16-HD fighters and one 4-HD fighter. So, even granted your crazy-high charisma modifier, you still get to color spray one guy.
"Creatures affected" plural, plus "total number of Hit Dice" means you reduce the total pool of HD of everyone in the pattern by your Cha mod, yes?
That would depend on your interpretation of the ability. I view it mainly as a temporary level drain.
And why on earth would you view it that way? No wonder you think the ability is overpowered; you're adding in all kinds of power that isn't present.
Even if you are right, it allows the Oracle to lower the HD of opponents to such a level that they are easily destroyed by Holy Word (which is level based).
Since when is Holy Word an illusion (pattern) spell?
It's not "their" being possessive, it's multiple creatures and total number of Hit Dice.
What is the total number of hit dice in a group of five 1-HD goblins? 5. Total number of HD in a group of three level 16 fighters? 48.
It'll probably get cleared up one way or another in the APG.
However, I'm certain it's only intended to treat the creatures as having fewer HD for the purposes of illusion (pattern) spells, which are limited to only effecting a certain number of HD worth of creatures. It doesn't permanently cripple them.
Fireball does xd6 to everyone in its area, I view this as reducing the HD of everyone in the area.
Holy guano! Like mages need a power up! You're making fireball into fireball plus mass enervation? And keeping its level the same?! Holy guano! That's insane! Compared to that, Awesome Display is a tame little puppy wagging its tail!
This thread has certainly taken on a life of its own.
Since Awesome Display seems to have become the main discussion of this thread, here is my take.
Bold Emphasis Mine (i.e. text I added)
A short bit of wording and it seems perfectly clear. Granted, there is the possibility that my interpretation is not what the writers intend with this ability. However, in the interest of the theme of the Heavenly Oracle, enhanced effects from Illusion (pattern) spells makes sense.
Having the patterns effectively reduce the HD (if only a phantom loss) for the purpose of determining the way other spells affect them while they are under the influence of a Pattern spell cast by the Oracle seems a bit off. This is the scenario that a few people mentioned above about 'Holy Word' becoming more effective suddenly. I don't think this is what the ability is saying though.
I understand completely Ughbash. The way it was worded could easily have been misconstrued. Glad I could help clear that up.
Of course, I could be wrong. But I honestly believe that to be the intent of the ability. Hopefully it will be worded very carefully in the APG hardcover to eliminate any confusion.
Awesome Display (Su): Creatures affected by your illusion (pattern) spells are treated as if their total number of Hit Dice were equal to their number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier
Lets say you are fighting 3 level 16 fighters. They just became 4 HD fighters... Color spray and fight over with a first level spell.
I'm not sure this is right. Depending on how Display works, you've either got three 12-HD fighters, or two 16-HD fighters and one 4-HD fighter. So, even granted your crazy-high charisma modifier, you still get to color spray one guy.
"Creatures affected" plural, plus "total number of Hit Dice" means you reduce the total pool of HD of everyone in the pattern by your Cha mod, yes?
Yes. And this mean that Color spray, hypnotic pattern and rainbow pattern will be useful at even higher levels.
you say its not a wizard, not a druid, not a cleric I agree its not, but you are saying its "too good", if that the case "too" what ? better than what ?"too" good is a comparative phrase
perhaps you could list the classes you consider orcale to be too good in comparison to.
otherwise we might as well be discussing how "good" is a piece of string.
No we might not, because it doesn't amuse me.
It's not that the orcacle with the Heaven mystery is game breaking it is that it is so clearly superior to the mystery alternatives...with perhaps the exception of Battle.
I'm not primeraly talking Oracle vs. all other classes. I'm talking the heaven mystery vs. other mysteries.
Honestly I prefer Lore to heavens (not just capstone but throughout).
It's not that the orcacle with the Heaven mystery is game breaking it is that it is so clearly superior to the mystery alternatives...with perhaps the exception of Battle.
I'm not primeraly talking Oracle vs. all other classes. I'm talking the heaven mystery vs. other mysteries.
I like lore too, although some of the abilities and spells were overlapping. I hope they have fixed this.
But I think we both will be pleased when we get the book :-)
Anyways, fascinating crunch discussion aside, to the original topic:
Scintillating Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Components V, S, M (a crystal prism)
Effect colorful lights in a 20-ft.-radius spread
A twisting pattern of coruscating colors weaves through the air, affecting creatures within.Rainbow Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components V (bard only), S, M (a piece of phosphor), F (a crystal prism); see text
Effect colorful lights with a 20-ft.-radius spread
A glowing, rainbow-hued pattern of interweaving colors fascinates those within it...Color Spray
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Components V, S, M (red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand)
A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious.
From the spell descriptions themselves, Scintillating Pattern seems mostly like a more powerfulo version of Rainbow Pattern. Rainbow Pattern actually references ¨rainbow¨ within the description (and title), and crucialy both Rainbow and Scintillating Pattern use a PRISM as a Material Component / Focus (I`m not sure if it`s a type-o that the prism is a component which is used up rather than a focus in Scintillating Pattern), i.e. the connection to the heavens / natural rainbow / light / etc. Color Spray`s component is COLORED SAND, which doesn`t particularly suggest a connection to the heavans or sky to me. So I`m even more in the camp that Scintillating Pattern, like Rainbow Pattern, should be on their spell list. If anything, Color Spray should be taken off since it`s just parlor trickery with colored sand.
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No we might not, because it doesn't amuse me.It's not that the orcacle with the Heaven mystery is game breaking it is that it is so clearly superior to the mystery alternatives...with perhaps the exception of Battle.
I'm not primeraly talking Oracle vs. all other classes. I'm talking the heaven mystery vs. other mysteries.
Hmm, I'm playing in a game right now as a Battle Oracle but as I was reading through the various Oracle descriptions, none of them seemed particularly over or underpowered, though I could see some being underpowered within play styles, particularly the lore one.
Why do you see the heavens oracle as overpowered compared to the others?
Heh, right so where are we with this ?
We've cleared up the confusion some people were having that Awesome display's effect, can not be stacked with other spells that are not illusion pattern, to exploit a theoretical lower HD. (I think we can all agree that this is the intent even if the phrasing of the words isn't precise about it)
Heavens really isn't really more powerful than other mysteries, at the very least battle, lore, and maybe nature and bones are as least as powerful if you design your character to take advantage of their abilities
Scintillating Pattern , could potentially have just as much fluff relation compared with the existing illusion "pattern" spells
As was mentioned its not like a Oracle 1/ Sorc 19 couldn't get Awesome Display + Scintillating Pattern.
You'd need to take heighten spell to keep the DC strong of color spray and get around globes of invun and the like.
Its a mind effecting effect which won't effect all creatures. Undead for example are immune to these effects
fascinated creatures snap straight out of their fascination if attacked and get a bunch of saves before then, and can break out with no save if an ally shakes them
Although you can heighten color spray and can pump your charisma modifier , is color spray + awesome display still a better option than some other 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells you can potentially cast instead ?
heightened color spray is a full round action as is all meta magic (bar quicken) for the spontaneous caster
Maybe it's me, but the way I interpret Aweome Display is much more restrictive: It says "Each creature AFFECTED BY your illusion..." What that means to me is that the opponent has to fail the Save and then once they have failed you subtact your Cha mod from their hit dice to determine the effect they suffer. So, for example, I cast Color Spray at a group of lvl 5s. Each makes a saving throw. Those who fail are treated as lvl 1 for determining the effect, since my Cha mod is +4. Na general lowering of hit dice and not - and this is important - a lowering of hit dice BEFORE they roll the save. If interpreted this way, it's very powerful at low levels, but I'm not so sure it is powerful at high levels.
Nonetheless,...
Oh look an old thread of mine :)
To your comment I'm not sure why you thought anyone in this thread was interpreting this any other way but RAW it works as you've described.
the lowering HD effect is a condition only applied vs the effect of the spell. which changes nothing about what's been written.
fantastic early levels passable mid levels and struggles late levels when monster HD ramps up faster than your CHA modifier. at which point the only way to keep up is moving to scintillating pattern that offers a wider range of HD that can be effected
as I've said
heightened color spray lets you use it until mid-late levels (spell perfection would be on way of doing this )
oracle1/sorc19 gets you awsome display and scint pattern
Maybe it's me, but the way I interpret Aweome Display is much more restrictive: It says "Each creature AFFECTED BY your illusion..." What that means to me is that the opponent has to fail the Save and then once they have failed you subtact your Cha mod from their hit dice to determine the effect they suffer. So, for example, I cast Color Spray at a group of lvl 5s. Each makes a saving throw. Those who fail are treated as lvl 1 for determining the effect, since my Cha mod is +4. Na general lowering of hit dice and not - and this is important - a lowering of hit dice BEFORE they roll the save. If interpreted this way, it's very powerful at low levels, but I'm not so sure it is powerful at high levels.
Nonetheless,...
Oh look an old thread of mine :)
To your comment I'm not sure why you thought anyone in this thread was interpreting this any other way but RAW it works as you've described.
the lowering HD effect is a condition only applied vs the effect of the spell. which changes nothing about what's been written.
I'm glad the thread got revived - because my group does have the same understanding as John thought the rest of the thread had (so the bard is bard 10/heaven oracle 1 specifically for this revelation), but now I can clearly see where that interpretation went wrong.
To your comment I'm not sure why you thought anyone in this thread was interpreting this any other way but RAW it works as you've described.
the lowering HD effect is a condition only applied vs the effect of the spell. which changes nothing about what's been written.
Ok, upon further review, either I'm misreading what the consensus is here, or the power is nigh-worthless.
The way I'm thinking everyone here is reading it, it doesn't alter HD for purposes of the spell's effects until after they fail their save and are affected by it, at which point their HD are (for purposes of the spell effect) reduced by your Charisma. But the only illusion (pattern) spells I found which actually have variable effects based on HD are color spray and scintillating pattern (which you can only get if you're just dipping a level of oracle for this one ability). The rest just either affect you or they don't.
So is this power entirely useless except for buffing color spray? Or does it alter the amount of HD you can affect with hypnotic pattern and the like?
One possibility I just came up with says "Hypnotic pattern works like normal, except that after a creature with X HD fails their save, you only deduct (X - Cha) HD from the pool of how many you can affect", but that leads to some weird scenarios (i.e. affecting 8 HD, with a 3 Cha mod, on two 6 HD targets: One fails it's save, you deduct 3 HD from the pool, you have 5 left. Now you can't affect the other because you don't have enough HD left, even though you'd have HD left over if it did affect them).
Where am I going wrong with this logic?
The way I read and use it:
Heavenly Harry blasts three coppahs (Hellknights) in the face with color spray. The coppahs are 5th level to poor Harry's 3rd level. For the sake of simplicity, let us suppose Heavenly Harry has GSF Illusion and a Charisma bonus of +3. This sets his color spray at a DC of (10+3 Cha +1 SL +2 GSF) 16. The coppahs, for this example, have a +4 Will bonus. Coppahs 1 and 2 fail. Normally, poor Harry is in for a rough time as all 3 of the coppahs are still very much a threat, although for 1 round he really only has to worry about Coppah 2.
However, thanks to Aweome Display, Coppahs 1 and 3 only count as 2 HD pansies - they're out of commission for more than a few rounds.
Using hypnotism, the Coppahs are still 2 HD panises - they're the lowest HD critters that the hypnotism spell works on. Net result is very much the same.
Rainbow pattern counts the HD that are affected against a vastly larger pool. The catch is not to be too close or you could be swept up in the glory of Groetus' smiling skull ...
A higher level Oracle - say the one mentioned above - with a +12 Cha bonus would wreck havoc in a Steading of the Hill Giant Chief scenario ...