
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Remember Exotic weapons have a feat cost.
Also remember that wielding off hand medium weapons imposes a -2 To hit. balance that against the +4 dmg you'd receive using a different weapon and Power Attack, and it's probably not a good idea.
bECAUse weapon dmg dice don't grow overtime, Fighters focus on Str bonus, skill bonus, class bonus, and crit chance, not weapon dice. 2d6 is great for a Greatsword, but 7 pts of dmg vs 4.5 is not immense when you consider the benefits of possibly using a shield.
==
Dmg: IN THEORY, the TWF can do more dmg then the THW fighter.
Doing the math, that is not the case OVER TIME, because the -2 to hit effectively imposes a 10% dmg penalty on the TWF, AND the TWF has to take feats and allocate points to Dex. 3 feats and 19 Dex requirement are a definite cost, and represent feats that could be turned to other uses...or to even more damage.
So, the Greatsword user has a simpler time of things, more options, and because he hits more, does more DOT.
==Aelryinth

thegreenteagamer |

Dmg: IN THEORY, the TWF can do more dmg then the THW fighter.
Doing the math, that is not the case OVER TIME, because the -2 to hit effectively imposes a 10% dmg penalty on the TWF, AND the TWF has to take feats and allocate points to Dex. 3 feats and 19 Dex requirement are a definite cost, and represent feats that could be turned to other uses...or to even more damage.
So, the Greatsword user has a simpler time of things, more options, and because he hits more, does more DOT.
==Aelryinth
Unless you count bonus damage from stuff like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, etc.

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Sword and shield. As a fighter swimming in feats, that's the path I would take.
This is spot on accurate.
With just a handful of feats outside the standard TWF tree you get:
1- a free bull rush on every shield bash
2- no TWF penalties on either hand after 11th level
3- full shield ac bonus while using it as a weapon
4- a large spiked shield with the bashing enhancement does 2d6 damage. Add keen spikes for extra fun.
You can't match that suite of advantages with any other TWF set. The only feats you need are improved shield bash, shield slam, and shield master. Pretty sweet, actually.

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underling wrote:Shield Master lets you disregard the penalty on attacks with the shield. How do you lose the penalty on the primary hand?2- no TWF penalties on either hand after 11th level
you are correct. However, that takes nothing away from the point. You don't get that benefit from any other combo (AC, no penalty on that attack, etc...) still works for me.
And, while cheesy, you could dual wield shields. Or use a shield and one of those shield like weapons (madu) from the adventurers armory. Sword & board is vaible again, and I think that's great.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Aelryinth wrote:Unless you count bonus damage from stuff like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, etc.Dmg: IN THEORY, the TWF can do more dmg then the THW fighter.
Doing the math, that is not the case OVER TIME, because the -2 to hit effectively imposes a 10% dmg penalty on the TWF, AND the TWF has to take feats and allocate points to Dex. 3 feats and 19 Dex requirement are a definite cost, and represent feats that could be turned to other uses...or to even more damage.
So, the Greatsword user has a simpler time of things, more options, and because he hits more, does more DOT.
==Aelryinth
Even then, you need copious amounts of extra damage to overcome that TH penalty...and you still need to overcome the 3 feats and cost of the Dex. I'm not sure what feats a THW guy would take, you'd have to build the TWF and compare. It could be something as basic as more crit feats at the far end.
==Aelryinth

Dabbler |

thegreenteagamer wrote:Aelryinth wrote:Unless you count bonus damage from stuff like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, etc.Dmg: IN THEORY, the TWF can do more dmg then the THW fighter.
Doing the math, that is not the case OVER TIME, because the -2 to hit effectively imposes a 10% dmg penalty on the TWF, AND the TWF has to take feats and allocate points to Dex. 3 feats and 19 Dex requirement are a definite cost, and represent feats that could be turned to other uses...or to even more damage.
So, the Greatsword user has a simpler time of things, more options, and because he hits more, does more DOT.
==Aelryinth
Even then, you need copious amounts of extra damage to overcome that TH penalty...and you still need to overcome the 3 feats and cost of the Dex. I'm not sure what feats a THW guy would take, you'd have to build the TWF and compare. It could be something as basic as more crit feats at the far end.
==Aelryinth
I did crunch some numbers one time and a decently strong TWFer with a pair of shortswords could out-damage a greatsword fighter by reasonable margin, but was usually left with that -2 penalty, and had far fewer feats left over to play with.

Phasics |

considering anitmated shields are cheap cost only +2 enchantment
Antimated Heavy Shield of mithril +5 shield is only like 56k and gives +7 shield AC with no armor check or max dex.
there's also a feat that gives you full str bonus on offhand attacks
I made a TWF lv20 fighter gnome with the old hooked hammer, he has 49 AC (+14 armor, +7 shield, +6 Dex, +1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
+5 Keen, Speed, Thundering Adamantine Gnome Hooked Hammer +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 Off: +36/+36/+31/+26
(1d6+19 x4 / 1d4+19 x5)

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |

I did crunch some numbers one time and a decently strong TWFer with a pair of shortswords could out-damage a greatsword fighter by reasonable margin, but was usually left with that -2 penalty, and had far fewer feats left over to play with.
Very true, TWF has been fixed for the most part, they did a good job of that. Barbarians just need some rage powers that will help with that.
However the real power of TWF comes from the critical feats. getting a high critical range weapon combined with more attacks possible you get more critical effects allowing for some rather nastiness in combat.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

considering anitmated shields are cheap cost only +2 enchantment
Antimated Heavy Shield of mithril +5 shield is only like 56k and gives +7 shield AC with no armor check or max dex.
there's also a feat that gives you full str bonus on offhand attacks
I made a TWF lv20 fighter gnome with the old hooked hammer, he has 49 AC (+14 armor, +7 shield, +6 Dex, +1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
+5 Keen, Speed, Thundering Adamantine Gnome Hooked Hammer +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 Off: +36/+36/+31/+26
(1d6+19 x4 / 1d4+19 x5)
Note the limitations on Animated Shields now. You have to be wielding it at the start of a fight, and it only lasts for 4 rounds. So you won't be dual wielding your first round, nor after your fourth.
==Aelryinth

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |

Phasics wrote:considering anitmated shields are cheap cost only +2 enchantment
Antimated Heavy Shield of mithril +5 shield is only like 56k and gives +7 shield AC with no armor check or max dex.
there's also a feat that gives you full str bonus on offhand attacks
I made a TWF lv20 fighter gnome with the old hooked hammer, he has 49 AC (+14 armor, +7 shield, +6 Dex, +1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
+5 Keen, Speed, Thundering Adamantine Gnome Hooked Hammer +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 Off: +36/+36/+31/+26
(1d6+19 x4 / 1d4+19 x5)Note the limitations on Animated Shields now. You have to be wielding it at the start of a fight, and it only lasts for 4 rounds. So you won't be dual wielding your first round, nor after your fourth.
==Aelryinth
Quick Draw?

Phasics |

Aelryinth wrote:Phasics wrote:considering anitmated shields are cheap cost only +2 enchantment
Antimated Heavy Shield of mithril +5 shield is only like 56k and gives +7 shield AC with no armor check or max dex.
there's also a feat that gives you full str bonus on offhand attacks
I made a TWF lv20 fighter gnome with the old hooked hammer, he has 49 AC (+14 armor, +7 shield, +6 Dex, +1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
+5 Keen, Speed, Thundering Adamantine Gnome Hooked Hammer +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 Off: +36/+36/+31/+26
(1d6+19 x4 / 1d4+19 x5)Note the limitations on Animated Shields now. You have to be wielding it at the start of a fight, and it only lasts for 4 rounds. So you won't be dual wielding your first round, nor after your fourth.
==Aelryinth
Quick Draw?
or that in most fights during the first round the fighter will need a full move to get into melee which means at most they lose a single attack they can make with a std action which is no big deal when you can make 9 attacks the next round.
you can carry a two handed weapon in 1 hand , once you loose the anitmated shield you don't even need to draw the 2h weapon

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I'm being allowed to make a 12th level, human fighter. I want him to wield two weapons. What weapon should I use?
I've thought about dual wielding bastard swords but am also considering the advantages offered by using a light weapon in both hands. What do you all think I should use?
you help is appreciated,
Jamie
I'm all about the kukris. My lvl 13 kukri fighter has 24 str (17 base, +2 human, +2 belt, +3 from lvl'ing). With a +1 Holy and a +1 Vampiric (from the MIC), I managed to hit for 302 damage in one round if you count the bleed damage from my bleeding crits that would have occured on the monster's turn had it survived the disembowelment...mwahahaha!
I had some buffs (can't really remember what), but I know I had an extra attack for a total of 7 (3MH, 3OH, 1bonus). I think at least 2 hits in there were crits, but I don't really remember that either. Might have been three.

Daniel Moyer |

Orthos wrote:Again, go with double scimitar. Gets the dual-kukris crit range, still considered a light off-hand weapon, but up to d6 base damage rather than d4. :)Well, yeah, if you're using non-PF sources, that'd be an extra point of damage. Of course, it costs a feat to pull off, too...I'd just go with the kukris, myself (maybe retrain my kukri feats to double scimitar feats at a higher level when I had the spare feat to burn for it). But the big thing is the crit range - as long as you've got that, it's stylistic choice. ^_-
Double scimitars is not an optimal option unless you use 'Oversized TWF' from the 3.5 PHB2, it fixes having a larger than light weapon in your off-hand. Scimitars are a medium weapon, not a light and only a d6.
For the same feat cost, 'Exo. Weap. Prof. Sawtooth Saber' you get light weapon, the same crit range as scimitar and d8 damage. Duvall, Sawtooth Sabers can be found in either the "Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide" and/or in the "Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide". Both are free downloads here at Paizo. Or the relatively new "Adventurer's Armory".
Double Sword is pretty nice as well, the 1-1/2 single attack is cool if your built for strength, most TWF'ers are not due to high Dex requirements.

Daniel Moyer |

JimmyNids wrote:Well, yeah, but that's not nearly as useful as the extra crit range. Dual wield kukris and carry a pair of backup daggers and a pair of backup light maces or something in case you find something with massive damage-type-based DR (most things with DR based on damage type don't have a huge DR there so it's not that big of an issue).DrowVampyre wrote:Overcoming DR.. Dagger is Slashing or PiercingSeldriss wrote:Why daggers instead of kukris? Same damage die, same poison/magic options, but kukri has a better threat range.Two daggers
+ poison at low level
+ magic effect at higher level
Don't forget, Daggers can be THROWN too(without penalty), can be handy in a pinch! (like flying enemies)
Carrying backup/diverse weaponry is always a good idea, wearing Spiked Gauntlets or Cestus is also a VERY good idea, if you're a Rogue just remove them before diasbles.
(most things with DR based on damage type don't have a huge DR there so it's not that big of an issue).
Hopefully this won't lead to the 'DR debate zone', but I'm currently playing in a group that just got level 14, we're seeing DR10 to DR20 of all kinds. Cracking DR10 with an arrow can be challenging, I don't think I want to see how bad a d4 weapon fails, unless of course it's magical and you have at least an 18 Str.

InfoStorm |
I'm being allowed to make a 12th level, human fighter. I want him to wield two weapons. What weapon should I use?
I've thought about dual wielding bastard swords but am also considering the advantages offered by using a light weapon in both hands. What do you all think I should use?
you help is appreciated,
Jamie
If you're going with non-PF material, do something radical and either stick with the quarterstaff, and the feats you save for not going exotic or large you can buy combat expertise and Quickstaff (take the Threatening Defender trait).
OrHave fun with simple light maces and go for the Lightning Mace feat. Make sure you get Improved Crit-Light Mace to maximize the effects of Lightning Mace.
Who cares about min-maxing damage, Enjoy the character.

Dabbler |

I saw an excellent weapon on a TV documentary the other night, called the shongo - an African multi-bladed throwing knife that could also be used as a melee weapon.
The Shongo
Also known as the ‘kpinga’ and the ‘sapa’, the shongo is a multi-bladed knife used by some African tribes. It can be thrown as a simple weapon, or wielded as an exaotic melee weapon. A skilled thrower can curl the shongo around the edge of a shield to strike the holder. Image.
Shongo – exotic weapon
Cost: 10gp
Dmg (s)/Dmg(m): 1d4/1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range: 20 feet
Weight: 2lb
Type: Piercing
Special: The shongo can be thrown as a simple weapon. If it is learned as an exotic weapon, then when thrown it halves the AC bonus of any shield bonus (even that from a shield spell or similar), as it strikes the rim of a shield and can curl around it. The shongo can be used to trip or disarm an opponent with a +2 bonus to CMB for it’s hooked construction.
I could see duel-wielder getting a lot of mileage out of this weapon: carry several, for use in both melee and as close-range missile weapons.

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Quote:The Shongo
Also known as the ‘kpinga’ and the ‘sapa’, the shongo is a multi-bladed knife used by some African tribes. It can be thrown as a simple weapon, or wielded as an exaotic melee weapon. A skilled thrower can curl the shongo around the edge of a shield to strike the holder. Image.
Shongo – exotic weapon
Cost: 10gp
Dmg (s)/Dmg(m): 1d4/1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range: 20 feet
Weight: 2lb
Type: Piercing
Special: The shongo can be thrown as a simple weapon. If it is learned as an exotic weapon, then when thrown it halves the AC bonus of any shield bonus (even that from a shield spell or similar), as it strikes the rim of a shield and can curl around it. The shongo can be used to trip or disarm an opponent with a +2 bonus to CMB for it’s hooked construction.
The 'african throwing iron' or 'hunga-munga' is one of my favorite weapons (great picture you linked to, btw. That's my favorite configuration!).
I like your stats better than the official ones, that's for sure!
In Adventurer's Armory, it's a martial weapon that costs 4 gp, does 1d6P/x2, has a 15 ft. increment and weighs 3 lbs, making it four times as expensive, one die size less damaging, three times heavier and half the range of the sharpened frisbee that is the chakram.
In the real world, the throwing iron has been documented chopping the leg off of a man at 30 *yards* and has more penetrating power than a hand axe, while the chakram remains a jumped-up shuriken that was traditionally used against unarmored foes because it had no penetration power (and a tendency to bounce off of leather).
The throwing iron in AA is inferior in cost and range and crit multiplier (and equal in damage and weight) to the spear (a Simple weapon!).
Also? Katana can totally cut through an engine block. I saw it on the internet!

Dabbler |

Thanks! I took one look and realised that 'shonga' thing was made of mean. It was dangerous enough that various rulers banned it, which says a lot. The throwing action looked easy, but fighting with it in melee would be harder - not impossible though!
Also? Katana can totally cut through an engine block. I saw it on the internet!
Probably an aluminium engine block, though. Make no mistake, the katana is rated as the worlds deadliest personal combat weapon ... but it had it's limits!

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

The poster above was not referring to Double Scimitars (two weapons) but a Double Scimitar (double weapon), which requires an exotic to wield, but takes care of the off hand penalty for wielding. Prefered weapon of the Valenar elves in Eberron.
Sawtooth saber would require exotic AND oversized weapon. Feat cost not worth the point of dmg.
==Aelryinth

thegreenteagamer |

Sawtooth saber would require exotic AND oversized weapon. Feat cost not worth the point of dmg.
==Aelryinth
Nope. Common mistake from reading the stat block, but if you read the entry you'll see otherwise. If you don't have EWP, it counts as a longsword, but if you DO, it counts as a light weapon when wielded in your offhand.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Aelryinth wrote:Nope. Common mistake from reading the stat block, but if you read the entry you'll see otherwise. If you don't have EWP, it counts as a longsword, but if you DO, it counts as a light weapon when wielded in your offhand.Sawtooth saber would require exotic AND oversized weapon. Feat cost not worth the point of dmg.
==Aelryinth
Ah! So, you are basically spending a feat to wield a medium SPECIFIC weapon in your off hand, whereas you could spend the same feat on Wield Oversized and wield ANY medium weapon in your off hand. Your sole benefit is sawtooth is finessable...but a TWF shouldn't be using finesse anyways, he's got enough dmg problems.
the Double Scimitar would work out better just by improved crit chance.
==Aelryinth

AlQahir |

Caineach wrote:you could always go for Aldori Dueling Sabers. d8, 19-20 X3 crit, finessable even when wileded in 1 hand, with a unique trait to give you a +1 bonus to hit.Aldori Dueling Sword is 1d8, 19–20/×2, not x3. If you're looking in the Adv. Armory, it's stats are swapped with the Falcata.
If it has the same stats as the Falcata then according to the SRD it is 19-20/x3.
On that same note, though, I'm not sure that a weapon that can be used two-handed could be used dual wield AND still be finesseable. That is GM discretion, and I'm pretty sure mine would think that was uber-cheesy and disallow it.

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Thanks! I took one look and realised that 'shonga' thing was made of mean. It was dangerous enough that various rulers banned it, which says a lot. The throwing action looked easy, but fighting with it in melee would be harder - not impossible though!
Pope Gregory (or someone else, don't recall), upon seeing the crossbow, said it was such a terrifying weapon, it would surely end all wars...
While I agree the shonga is a good weapon, just because rulers banned them doesn't make them kryptonite.
Now, the falcata...a weapon that made the Romans redesign their armor, because it cut right through it ;)

Dabbler |

While I agree the shonga is a good weapon, just because rulers banned them doesn't make them kryptonite.
Good grief no, the shonga was a weapon that had no other use than in war: you saw somebody carrying one, you knew they meant business. That said, it was a nasty, effective weapon. It's great versatility makes it a weapon I'd certainly consider for TWFer.

james knowles |

Dwarven Waraxe.
str 22(15 point buy+2 human+3 lvl+2 belt)
+6 to hit (+6 str +2 weapon training +2 greater focus -4 twf)/+10 to confirm crits (same mods +4 from critical focus)
crits on 19-20 (18-20 if your DM lets keen and im. crit stack) for 1d10+10/x3 damage.
feats: exotic prof dwarven waraxe, focus/greater focus, specialization/greater specialization, im. crit, and critical focus. this eats up your fighter bonus feats, but you still have 6 lvl feats to play with...plus it just has a cool visual.
above mods dont include any masterwork/magic enchancements
not the most optimum build, but sure fun to play (even better if you're an elven or 1/2 orc fighter, and there's a dwarf in the party).

Jack Rift |

Hey, Depends on what flavor you want, how you want to burn feats, 12th lvl fighter has a lot. I, being a fan of TWF, say kukuris for crit range & crit feats. Dual wield saw tooth sabers EW longsword that counts as light when dual wielded only, no finesse. That is Aldori dualing sword, ment for ein-hinder (one handed no shield) style (The Inner Sea Guide) there for not for this thread. Falcata with it x3 (advanced players guide) crit range with buckler going for Taldan Duelist using fighter variant in Inner Sea primer called Taldan Rolondo, yes this style can shield bash with a buckler (d4), so a specific varient of the shield fighter. Or just about any of the dual weapons, my personal fav, Scyth-Sword, basically a Scyth (2d4 x4) and a longsword on the other end! And improved crit would up grad both crit ranges one the thing for added fun. The varient TW fighter out of Advanced Player Guide has one typo in it, that needs to be fixed, but other wise makes for one scary dude.

Doomed Hero |

Buying a ring of Use Activated Thunderlance?
72,000 gp.
Being able to play drums across a battlefield with 20' long lightsabers:
Priceless

SiuoL |

I think it's depends on how you want to play this. If you want to be able to hit as much as possible with your two weapons. Kukri is your best choose compare to others as long as you keen edge or improve critical for it. You want to deal as much damage with your strength bonus as possible because no other bonus would give you as much as your str modifier can if you play two weapon fighting.
If you only looking to crit as much as possible because you have some crit feats and crit mastery. Scimitar in each hand, you will miss more often, but no big deal because you have full BAB, beside you only want to crit. Nothing else. With scimitars, you want to use more full attack than kukri. Kukri, if you only get to do normal attack, you are likely to hit. While scimitar, if you don't crit, not likely to hit. So more attacks you get to roll, more change of crit.
If you want to go really crazy with it, two falchion in each hand, you can't even attack normally like this, but when you crit, it hurts. However, you might as well go for two handed with falchion since it's just better in every way.

Snow_Tiger |

blope wrote:Just out of curiosity...is a two weapon fighter a better damage output, or a two-handed weapon?TWF has better damage output in theory if you use, say, two short swords. This is because you get the damage boosts from weapon training and Weapon Specialisation twice rather than once, and with double slice you gain 2x Str damage instead of 150% strength as well. However, a TWFer needs a high dexterity, so you are likely to always be a little down on the Strength department compared to the two-handed fighter, which evens out the difference a little.
I've been playing around with the idea of a strength based Twf ranger.
I didn't realize that could be better than one doing two handed fighting, so I'm sort of iffy on it, so I have 't I seen builds like this?

Atarlost |
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There are basically three candidates:
Dual kukri: This gives the best proc rate for the critical focus tree. At level 12 that's probably the way to go.
Dual heavy shield: Lousy crits, but with shield master you negate the TWF penalties and it's the only way to get a decent shield bonus to AC while TWFing and getting the benefits of the focus/specialization tree on both weapons. If you were playing from low level you'd do dual light shields to avoid the one handed off-hand weapon penalty before shield master.
Eastern Chain Weapon: The exact mechanics on several of these are hazy so your GM will probably have to do some house ruling, but you'll wind up with some sort of unique capability.

AdAstraGames |

Half-Orc Ranger, two weapon style. Get Toothy for the extra natural attack, and maybe take Accelerated Drinker.
1) You get the Orc Double Bitted axe as a proficient weapon.
2) You don't need a sky high Dexterity to access TWF, so you get more STR, which makes Double Slice more useful.
3) You can use wands of lead blades and be doing 2d6+STR damage on each hand by third level. Be sure to have them in your spring loaded wrist sheathes. One charge and your damage output gets groovy.
4) If you have accelerated drinker and know you can approach with a potion in your hand, you can chug, swift action the wand into your hand, cast lead blades and be dishing 3d6+N damage per hit.
5) Animal companion is part of the package. Get your animal companion an Amulet of Menacing, and flank for +4 to hit. Getting the teamwork feat with your AC to give an additional +2 Flanking mod is always handy.
I built this character for PFS, minus the Accelerated Drinker. Works well enough.

lemeres |

I've been playing around with the idea of a strength based Twf ranger.
I didn't realize that could be better than one doing two handed fighting, so I'm sort of iffy on it, so I have 't I seen builds like this?
Well, typically, when I want to build a melee character with a 20 point buy (let's assume human/half-whatever for a bonus on the highest score, or some race with whatever appropriate scores), I like to have some mix of 18 and two 14's spread across the physical stats, so no penalties in mental ones.
For this, you can work with two 16's and a 14. Later, you add a single score increase to dex, and you have enough to cover almost every TWF feat that matters (I mean, who cares about a hit that is always at your BAB -12?). You can also easily raise strength another point if you dump CHA to 8 or 7. The latter would leave points leftover to help boost wisdom or intelligence if you like. Anyway, this allows for a decent strength focused TWF, and thus it saves you a feat by cutting out weapon finesse.