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I am just trying to figure out a good way (as a DM) to help a player who wants to play a Centaur. They honestly don't seem over-powered (a lot more disadvantages than advantages), but there would be some sort of level-adjustment I'm assuming. Is there any 'official' way to make one? And if not, any suggestions as to an 'unoffical' idea? ;)
I am just trying to figure out a good way (as a DM) to help a player who wants to play a Centaur. They honestly don't seem over-powered (a lot more disadvantages than advantages), but there would be some sort of level-adjustment I'm assuming. Is there any 'official' way to make one? And if not, any suggestions as to an 'unoffical' idea? ;)
I'm playing a centaur PC in my dwindling Ptolus game. I would say I really preferred the way they were before in 3.5 than in Pathfinder(HERESY!!!) because their large size and old school grapple bonuses makes up for the serious problems they have with climbing and overall being too big for many situation. However, a case could be made for the 3.5 version being too powerful when mixed with Pathfinder classes. Check the Pathfinder Bestiary for the Pathfinder version of the centaur- it works well within the rules without being overpowering.
I am just trying to figure out a good way (as a DM) to help a player who wants to play a Centaur. They honestly don't seem over-powered (a lot more disadvantages than advantages), but there would be some sort of level-adjustment I'm assuming. Is there any 'official' way to make one? And if not, any suggestions as to an 'unoffical' idea? ;)
I see them as a level 2 or 3 character. I am leaning more towards a 2.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12 =
Ablity Score Adjustments
Str +4
Dex +4
Con +4
Wis +4
Cha +2
They also get 4 HD which gives them skill points, hit points, and feats.
I see them as a level 2 or 3 character. I am leaning more towards a 2.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12 =
Ablity Score Adjustments
Str +4Dex +4
Con +4
Wis +4
Cha +2
They also get 4 HD which gives them skill points, hit points, and feats.
With such racial modifiers, 4d10 HD, 4 skill points per HD, Good Reflex and Will Saves, full BaB for those HD (as Monstrous Humanoids), I would dare to say that they are at least 4th level characters, if not more.
Than goodness they have the Undersized Weapons special ability, otherwise they could also wield Large-sized weapons (as in 3.x) !
Sure, they are big and have problems when moving in cramped spaces, on stairs, and so on. But with 50 ft. speed (including the speed reduction from Breastplate !), in an open space they are absolutely monstrous (pun intended).
In 3.5 they were 6th level characters (4 HD, +2 LA); I would say, forget about the LA and keep them 4th or 5th level characters - they are 'more or less' at that power level, IMHO.
Just my 2c.
I see them as a level 2 or 3 character. I am leaning more towards a 2.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12 =
Ablity Score Adjustments
Str +4Dex +4
Con +4
Wis +4
Cha +2
They also get 4 HD which gives them skill points, hit points, and feats.
With such racial modifiers, 4d10 HD, 4 skill points per HD, Good Reflex and Will Saves, full BaB for those HD (as Monstrous Humanoids), I would dare to say that they are at least 4th level characters, if not more.
Than goodness they have the Undersized Weapons special ability, otherwise they could also wield Large-sized weapons (as in 3.x) !
Sure, they are big and have problems when moving in cramped spaces, on stairs, and so on. But with 50 ft. speed (including the speed reduction from Breastplate !), in an open space they are absolutely monstrous (pun intended).
In 3.5 they were 6th level characters (4 HD, +2 LA); I would say, forget about the LA and keep them 4th or 5th level characters - they are 'more or less' at that power level, IMHO.
Just my 2c.
The amount of times I've been subject to sneak attacks due to easily being flanked, or aoo'd due to just trying to move about the battlefield(almost dying on three separate occasions), makes the loss of the ability to wield large weapons really, really hurt.
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If the monster PC guidelines in the Bestiary are strictly adhered to, a centaur PC's progression looks like the table below. The left column shows the centaur's racial HD (before the slash) and the centaur's class levels (after the slash) as it compares to his more normal party members' class levels. For example, if your party is 16th-level, then you should be a 14th-level centaur (that is 4 HD & 14 class levels). The bolded line is where the centaur gains a "bonus class level" to make up for his inferior racial HD.
4/00; 3
4/01; 4
4/02; 5
4/04; 6
4/05; 7
4/06; 8
4/07; 9
4/08; 10
4/09; 11
4/10; 12
4/11; 13
4/12; 14
4/13; 15
4/14; 16
4/15; 17
4/16; 18
4/17; 19
4/18; 20
Your centaur racial traits would look something like this:
Ability Modifiers: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha (as well as +1 to any one ability score for your 4th racial HD)
Size: Large (10 x 10 ft.)
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (4 HD)
Speed: 50 ft.
Reach: 5 ft.
Armor Class: +1 natural armor bonus
Natural Attacks: 2 hooves (secondary attacks, base 1d6 damage)
Skills: No racial bonuses, but you get a +8 bonus to Acrobatics checks made to jump due to high speed.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Undersized weapons
Starting Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan (with no bonus languages for high intelligence)
You may only play such a character in a 3rd-level or higher group and you gain the starting funds of a character for your effective level (for example, if you started in a 16th-level group, you would start with 315,000gp worth of adventuring gear).
HP: 10 + 3d10 + (con x 4)
Base saves: +1 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will
Base Attack: +4
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All light and medium armors, shields (except the tower shield), and all simple weapons plus the longsword
Feats: 2 general feats (one at your first HD, and one at your 3rd)
Skills: You have 16 ranks to assign (modified for intelligence) and you can have up to 4 ranks in any given skill. Your class skills are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
When you add on class levels, you follow all the same rules for multiclassing (thus you do NOT gain max hp for your first class level since you already got it for your first racial HD). You can also start benefiting from your favored class bonuses (as you can't choose your racial type as a favored class).
That's about it I think. If you have any other questions about playing monstrous characters, feel free to let me know.
EDIT: Don't forget your size modifiers (-1 AC/attacks, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, etc.)
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With monster races (especially weaker ones like this), I honestly think the best answer is to make an equivalent version of the race that's intended for player use. It's way more fun than causing them to lag behind for roleplaying reasons, since they rarely compensate for lost class levels with the racial benefits they gain. If I had a player who wanted to run a centaur, this is what I'd give them the option of using:
CENTAUR
Large size (10 ft. size, 5 ft. reach)
+2 Str (or Con), +2 Wis, -2 Int
40 ft. speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Undersized Weapons (Ex) ability
Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan, any others as bonus
and maybe a skill bonus or two (+2 perception?)
With monster races (especially weaker ones like this), I honestly think the best answer is to make an equivalent version of the race that's intended for player use. It's way more fun than causing them to lag behind for roleplaying reasons, since they rarely compensate for lost class levels with the racial benefits they gain. If I had a player who wanted to run a centaur, this is what I'd give them the option of using:
CENTAUR
Large size (10 ft. size, 5 ft. reach)
+2 Str (or Con), +2 Wis, -2 Int
40 ft. speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Undersized Weapons (Ex) ability
Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan, any others as bonusand maybe a skill bonus or two (+2 perception?)
Lag behind? How so? I can only imagine a spellcaster centaur lagging behind. We have a female player who LOVES centaurs and is currently playing her fourth centaur character since Pathfinder's release. I can't think of a single instance where anyone thought of her as being weaker than one of the other characters. (In case it matters, she's played a barbarian, fighter, ranger, and now a bard.)
I posted this in an older thread, but maybe you'd find this to work... I think the main issue with the full centaur was their large size made them too overpowered or bulky compared to everyone else. This was build to match up with the other core classes. This is on par with the core races.
Light Centaurs
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intellegence: Centaurs are both mighty and cunning, but also a bit primal.
Medium: Centaurs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Equine Steadiness: Centaurs have a base speed of 30 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision: Centaurs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Sure-Footed: Centaurs receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks while at least two feet are on solid ground.
Born to Run: Centaurs receive Run as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Charger Breed: Centaurs deal double damage when charging with a lance and may wield a lance with one hand as if mounted.
Keen Senses: Centaurs receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Hooves: Centaurs may make attacks with their hooves as a natural attack, but are considered unarmed and deal 1d4 each.
Weapon Familiarity: Centaurs are proficient with lances and javalins and treat any weapon with the word “centuar” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Centaurs begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Centaurs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
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Lag behind? How so? I can only imagine a spellcaster centaur lagging behind. We have a female player who LOVES centaurs and is currently playing her fourth centaur character since Pathfinder's release. I can't think of a single instance where anyone thought of her as being weaker than one of the other characters. (In case it matters, she's played a barbarian, fighter, ranger, and now a bard.)With monster races (especially weaker ones like this), I honestly think the best answer is to make an equivalent version of the race that's intended for player use. It's way more fun than causing them to lag behind for roleplaying reasons, since they rarely compensate for lost class levels with the racial benefits they gain. If I had a player who wanted to run a centaur, this is what I'd give them the option of using:
CENTAUR
Large size (10 ft. size, 5 ft. reach)
+2 Str (or Con), +2 Wis, -2 Int
40 ft. speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Undersized Weapons (Ex) ability
Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan, any others as bonusand maybe a skill bonus or two (+2 perception?)
Please give her a ^5 for me.
CENTAURS 4 LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I posted this in an older thread, but maybe you'd find this to work... I think the main issue with the full centaur was their large size made them too overpowered or bulky compared to everyone else. This was build to match up with the other core classes. This is on par with the core races.
Light Centaurs
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intellegence: Centaurs are both mighty and cunning, but also a bit primal.
Medium: Centaurs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Equine Steadiness: Centaurs have a base speed of 30 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision: Centaurs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Sure-Footed: Centaurs receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks while at least two feet are on solid ground.
Born to Run: Centaurs receive Run as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Charger Breed: Centaurs deal double damage when charging with a lance and may wield a lance with one hand as if mounted.
Keen Senses: Centaurs receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Hooves: Centaurs may make attacks with their hooves as a natural attack, but are considered unarmed and deal 1d4 each.
Weapon Familiarity: Centaurs are proficient with lances and javalins and treat any weapon with the word “centuar” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Centaurs begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Centaurs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
I still miss being large, but I like this. This works, imo.
Thanks! I especially like Ravingdorks concepts! Everyone is always so helpful on here. :)
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You're right that as a fighter type character, being a centaur under actual Pathfinder rules wouldn't be underpowered, but as a spellcaster of any sort, you're going to feel really useless. That's why I prefer homebrew base race versions of these types of monsters. They're going to feel balanced regardless of class choices. The one I suggested was thrown together as an example, and obviously the other one posted seems much more well thought out, but I really don't think large PCs need to be avoided at all costs. I think the advantages and disadvantages balance out pretty well.
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Thanks! I especially like Ravingdorks concepts! Everyone is always so helpful on here. :)
Just a quick note that Ravingdork isn't introducing concepts or houserules, he is outlining the RAW from the Bestiary.
The others in this thread are presenting their own original content (aka "house rules", "homebrews" or "conversions").
I'm not saying either scenario is a better solution, I just want to be sure the distinction between the type of content being presented is being made.
I see them as a level 2 or 3 character. I am leaning more towards a 2.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12 =
Ablity Score Adjustments
Str +4Dex +4
Con +4
Wis +4
Cha +2
They also get 4 HD which gives them skill points, hit points, and feats.
With such racial modifiers, 4d10 HD, 4 skill points per HD, Good Reflex and Will Saves, full BaB for those HD (as Monstrous Humanoids), I would dare to say that they are at least 4th level characters, if not more.
Than goodness they have the Undersized Weapons special ability, otherwise they could also wield Large-sized weapons (as in 3.x) !
Sure, they are big and have problems when moving in cramped spaces, on stairs, and so on. But with 50 ft. speed (including the speed reduction from Breastplate !), in an open space they are absolutely monstrous (pun intended).
In 3.5 they were 6th level characters (4 HD, +2 LA); I would say, forget about the LA and keep them 4th or 5th level characters - they are 'more or less' at that power level, IMHO.
Just my 2c.
Monster HD do not equal class levels. That is why the flat formula idea does not always work. It is not an exact science. I think a 3rd level character is about equal to the centuar.
Monster HD do not equal class levels. That is why the flat formula idea does not always work. It is not an exact science. I think a 3rd level character is about equal to the centuar.
Let's look at this. As the critter has racial HD (which need to be taken into consideration), let's say that centaur is both a race AND a "monster class" (meaning you must start with it, and it has a fixed amount of levels, which you must take first before branching out; you don't get ability score bonuses for those levels, and they can't be your favoured class)
Racial:
Monstrous humanoid
Darkvision 60
Weapon Familiarity: Longsword
Hooves: 2 secondary attacks for 1d6 each
Speed 50
Large
Undersized Weapons
+2 str, +2 wis (no penalty!)
Sure, the large size is mostly a disadvantage here, due to undersized weapons, but I'd still say that the high speed, darkvision, secondary attacks, and the lack of an ability penalty should make up for that.
Class:
Skills: Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth,
Survival, and Swim.
Skill Points: 4 + int modifier
Basics: Fast BAB progression, d10 HD, Good Ref and Will
Proficiencies: All simple weapons, light and medium armour, shields
Class abilities:
1st: Dex +2, Cha +2
2nd: Con +2, Wis +2
3rd: Str +2, +1 Natural Armour
4th: Dex +2, Con +2
Not bad, I'd say. The basic stuff (strong BAB, d10 HD, 2 good saves, 4+ skills) already make this quite a nice package, not bad for warrior types. And with that package (and the ability adjustments) warrior type makes sense.
Let's compare it to fighter (makes sense, since you'll have to multiclass, anyway, and fighter is good for multiclassing)
General: More skill points, and while your fort is not as good, the other two saves are, which is at least as good all in all.
1st: You basically get a fixed bonus feat that grants you +1 to AC, ref saves, init, ranged attacks (and weapon finesse attacks) and a bunch of skills (like Intimidate)
That's like Dodge (which you can still get - more easily now!), half a lightning reflexes, an all-purpose Weapon Focus (dex-based weapons), And one of those "general purpose" feats that grants you themed bonuses to init and skills (call it an extra trait, if you will). I'd call that effectively 2 full feats (Dodge, Weapon Focus) and one "flavour feat" (small bonus to ref, skills and init - Though depending on what you want to play, that can be worth more than a feat to you!). You might not get to choose your feats, but unless you have a very specific goal in mind, they will be quite handy!
2nd: Your bravery is there, only better: +1 to all will saves! You also get +1 to Fort saves and something what amounts to toughness (though you can still get toughness!) and +1 to perception, survival, and a couple of other things.
You get a better version of the fighter's actual class feature, and your free bonus feat is exchanged for Toughness and another flavour feat (+1 to fort and skills)
3rd: Instead Armour training, you get an increased carrying capacity, Something that amounts to Weapon Focus for all melee weapons (okay, this doesn't let you qualify for weapon specialisation, but you can still get the real weapon focus, and this makes it easier to qualify for some feats you might want to get later), +1 to a couple of skills (swim and climb, among others) and +1, maybe even +2 to more or less all weapon damage, and a bonus to both CMB and CMD! The natural armour now off-sets your size penalty to AC.
Armour Training is replaced by 1-2 good feats (Weapon Focus and something that is close to Weapon Specialisation, with the damage bonus) and extra abilities like improved combat manoeuvres, and some skill bonuses and packing mule.
4th: Instead of a bonus feat (which might have been Weapon Specialisation), You get +1 to two saves (ref and will), +1 AC, another bonus to ranged attack rolls, init, and a lot of nice skills.
That's like 4 feats (Weapon Focus, Dodge Again, Iron Reflexes, and a themed General Skill Focus).
Note that when I liken the ability bonuses to feats like Weapon Focus, I just assume you'll just use one kind of weapon - but you don't have to really focus here, as those bonuses apply to all sorts of weapons. Which means that if you want to focus in a weapon the centaur is not proficient with, that works fine: You start with, say, the longsword (and either a crossbow, or throw stuff) for the first levels, gain bonuses to both attack and damage with those weapons, and then, when you start your actual character class, exchange your stuff for whatever weapon you want and start getting the real feats for those weapons. The attack and damage advantages will still work. And those hooves will remain useful as a little bit of extra damage (they benefit from the attack and damage bonuses, too!)
It does delay the acquisition of actual class features, but you get to play a race that is, despite the "size penalty", quite strong, and you gain a lot of ability bonuses to compensate for that - which is often just as good mechanically. (We're talking about +18 in all to abilities here, normal races only have +3 at that point - +2/+2/-2 - or +2 - and +1 to an ability score of your choice, and chances are that you have +4 to your most important ability score, instead of the +3 the other races have at most)
I can see that being more than a fair trade for several classes:
The only thing you really miss out on (or lag behind) is fighter-specific feats, and there are lots of fighter concepts that work well without (and other feats only require BAB - you're not lacking behind with that! You can get improved crit on 8th, critical focus on 9th, and so on)
The size is actually an asset for combat manoeuvres here, and the 4 levels worth of actual fast BAB means you will have an easier time qualifying for feats like Greater (whatever manoeuvre you fancy).
The Race Builder specifies that quadrupeds get an extra +10' and the Undersized Weapons trait.
I'm not sure how +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis is "much better" than +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha. (Using Ravingdork's numbers derived from the Bestiary entry, above.)
Finally, the +2 NA is a screwup on d20pfsrd's part. If you look at the PRD you will see they get "natural armor (2 rp)" which is a +1.
EDIT: Also it is a 29 RP race, not 28. Not d20pfsrd's fault this time---the PRD charges them 2 RP for being monstrous humanoids, but it should be 3.
Monsters do not get the same base array as PCs, or even NPCs with class levels.
Ability Scores: The creature's ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11.
No, PC centaurs based on the Bestiary entry would get the Bestiary's modifiers on top of a normal PC N-point array. So they could beat up an NPC Bestiary centaur even before they got class benefits. The game is quite heavily slanted in PCs' favor, remember.
Well, yes, that's why if you let a player make a PC Bestiary centaur you consider them to be, say, 4th level to start with, so they don't get their first class level until the rest of the party is getting their fifth. Monster PCs require extra effort on the GM's part to keep in line. Players get a kick out of them, though.
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I strongly urge you to throw away the "advanced race guide" when creating quadruped taurs such as centaurs and liontaurs. The so-called guide imposes a HYUUUUUGE cost for being large, and a very small cost for reach. If you make a large quadruped with no reach, you pay for the advantage you do not get.
Personally, I recommend using homebrew options for centaurs (and liontaurs). Here's a centaur option in brief:
Adaptable Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence, +2 one other ability score (not Wis or Int).
Large: Centaurs are large sized, with a five-foot reach.
Normal Speed: Centaurs have a base speed of 50 feet (35 feet in armor).
Natural Armor: Centaurs have a +1 Natural Armor Bonus.
Tough: Centaurs gain Toughness as a racial feat.
Natural Attacks: two hoof attacks for 1d6 damage, bludgeoning. Critical 20 x2.
Vison: Low Light Vision
Natural: +2 racial bonus on Survival skill checks
Awkward: -2 racial penality on Climb skill checks
Tauric Form (Ex): Centaurs cannot make use of any footwear and do not have the Foot slot. They may, however, wear magical horse shoes. They also may not wear normal or magical pants.
Mounted (Ex): All Centaurs are always treated as mounted, and they can use equipment and combat actions as if mounted. Further, all centaurs are considered to have the Mounted Combat feat for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. This ability does not, however, grant the abilities of the Mounted Combat feat.
Undersized Weapons (Ex) Although a centaur is Large, its upper torso is the same size as that of a Medium humanoid. As a result, they wield weapons as if they were one size category smaller than their actual size (Medium for most centaurs).
Centaur begin play speaking Centaur and Tauric. Centaur with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Minotaur, Liontaur. Note that Centaur do not automatically know Common.
These rules and more can be found here:
http://www.woldiangames.com/Woldipedia/index.php/Centaurs
http://www.woldiangames.com/Woldipedia/index.php/Liontaurs
Those are links to player character race options for an online campaign setting called The Wold. It's a message board play-by-post campaign with about 75 players in 10 games all set in the same setting. And we're always looking for players, especially Taurs!
(You can even play a minotaur, with reach!)
You can find much more liontaur content at Cayzle's Wemic Site.
http://www.cayzle.com
It looks like most people's biggest issue with playing a centaur from the bestiary rules is the inability to play as a first or second level character. This is also a big issue if I wanted to play a caster of some kind.
Cayzle's race build above looks pretty cool.