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Ok I am running a campaign with a party consisting of a cleric and a fighter alongside a summoner with a large doglike eidelon. The fighter (player)in the group has been killed off a plenty while the eidelon seems to kill things at will and is easily the most powerful weapon in the group. It's to hot is a bit lower than the fighter but it gets three attacks and deals cold damage and is cold and fire resistant... it's crazy tough to hit with the buffs the summoner gives it AC 32 at level 9 is this an overpowered class or am i missing something here
It probably is somewhat, though instead of buffing the eidolon the fighter could be buffed with similar results or better ?
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I find it amusing that there seems to be an equal split between people who say the Eidolon is too powerful and too wimpy.
It seems a bit powerful at lower levels but I think that evens out. The eidolon seems less fidgety than the fighter so a lot depends on how optimized the fighter is.
Also consider that the eidolon can only be super awesome buffed for a certain amount of time each day.
I find it amusing that there seems to be an equal split between people who say the Eidolon is too powerful and too wimpy.
Just remember what a wiser man than I once said:
"A game is never truly balanced, until all sides b@%~+ equally."
By that rationale, I would say the Summoner is just about right. (As well as the Paladin, for that matter.)
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Did you start from first level, or create PCs who'd levelled up?
You often get different priorities, when playing from level 1 up.
Though the eidolon's evolutions can be swapped at each level-up, it's feats and skills are fixed, so it wouldn't have been a great multi-attacker till level 9, since it would have been taking some horrendous penalties on any secondary attacks.
Unless, of course, it took the Multiattack feat voluntarily, which means come level 9, it gets shafted by being one feat down.*
I'm building a bunch of eidolons for NPCs in my game, and I'm trying to be realistic in not picking feats and skills that would kick ass with it's current form, but would have been useful along the way.
*As an aside, I think level 9 should have an optional alternative to Multiattack, for those who want to take the feat earlier. I'm not a fan of class levels which effectively punish someone with a dead level, for building to their concept early on. (see also Ranger; Endurance).
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Well don't forget that the Eidolon has not just it's hit point pool but also can be saved by the summoner sacrificing hit points too. If it and the fighter are both fighting the same stuff, that's probably why the Eidolon stays up and the fighter doesn't.
Toss down some debuffs, a dispel magic (which any enemy wizard/cleric/whatever should always have memorized) or two, target the summoner and the cleric some attack, lay down some AOE. Break out the ranged weapons, etc.
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Don't forget the 100' range limit, if they want to keep full hp.
And if they move apart by more than 100', the eidolon takes a hit to its hp, which don't come back, once it returns to within range.
That could result in an enemy hit taking it to a negative hp total that the summoner won't (or can't) transfer.
Battlefield control effects, or traps, to split them up, or mundane tactics, like Bull Rushing beyond 100', will hammer the eidolon's hp, if the summoner tries to stay well away from the fight. And if he does stick close enough to help his eidolon, then he's close enough to get drawn into the battle.
Though the eidolon's evolutions can be swapped at each level-up, it's feats and skills are fixed, so it wouldn't have been a great multi-attacker till level 9, since it would have been taking some horrendous penalties on any secondary attacks.
Unless, of course, it took the Multiattack feat voluntarily, which means come level 9, it gets shafted by being one feat down.*
With all due respect, the multi attack feat is meaningless. You wouldn't bother taking it. Take, for example, a level 6 Summoner with his bipedal Eidolon. We are only going to pick primary attacks from the Evolution pool which means that an Eidolon using a full attack action gets all its attacks at its full BAB.
We have 9 evolution points to burn and it comes with limbs(arms), limbs(legs) and a claw attack for free. Lets assume the claw attacks are for the limbs(legs). We burn 1 point for a slam attack, 4 points to become large, 2 points for energy attack(acid),and lastly 1 point for a bite attack. We won't even bother with the extra point we have left over.
Lets assume our Summoner has cast Bull's strength on his pet just before a big fight and lets also assume that 1 of our 3 feats is power attack.
So in attack we now have a 30 strength creature (18 base, 4 bull str, 8 large) that attacks at full BAB with power attack with Reach (10 feet) including:
(to hit is +10 str +5 BAB -2 power attack = 13)
Bite (to hit +13) damage of 1d8 +1d6 acid +4 PA +10 str
Slam (to hit +13) damage of 2d6 +1d6 acid +4 PA +10 str
Claw (to hit +13) damage of 1d6 +1d6 acid +4 PA +10 str
Claw (to hit +13) damage of 1d6 +1d6 acid +4 PA +10 str
If we hit 4 times without crits, average damage would be 88.5 damage per round at 6th level.
While this is going on, our Summoner can cast some augmented Summoned monsters and battlefield control spells while perhaps remaining invisible for the win. 8P
At 6th level a summoner and his Eidolon can be far more lethal than a fighter. By 9th level we can pick some nice options like damage reduction, breath weapon or spell resistance from the evolution pool which is not even taking into account other bonuses the class receives.
Indeed, the Summoner and his Eidolon do appear very powerful.
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ok our summoner has a hp of 58
Ok eidelon somewhere (i didn't look)around 80
with feats and evolutions the eidelon has stats like this
29 12 17 7 10 11
str is up due to size ability inc +3 str for lev 9 and so on
BAB is 8 but the eidelon has a +9 str
soooo bite damage is d8 (large creature)+d6 cold damage(evo) +str
to add to that the claw damage with the cold as well
oh and a nat armour of 9 at this time always with mage armour, haste and sometimes shield
As someone that just proved that the Eidolon's weak point is its summoner last Thursday, the Eidolon is only as good as how well you plan it out. My spellcasting was pointless in the encounter we had (we were fighting undead).
Basically, your Eidolon is a tank, but if you (the summoner) are vulnerable, its a tank with a big gap in its armor, and as a caster, well, you can buff a little. I could do absolutely zero to help out my poorly equipped (for the encounter) Eidolon fighting undead.
The cleric managed to finish them off, but I was long gone by that point in time.
Is it a corner case? I don't know. I played the guy for two sessions at 7th level, and the first encounter of last Thursday, I though I was going to march right through the dungeon, and the second encounter I'm planning a new character.
Its all anecdotal, but hey, what are you going to do?
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We have 9 evolution points to burn and it comes with limbs(arms), limbs(legs) and a claw attack for free. Lets assume the claw attacks are for the limbs(legs). We burn 1 point for a slam attack, 4 points to become large, 2 points for energy attack(acid),and lastly 1 point for a bite attack. We won't even bother with the extra point we have left over.
I don't think you can put claws on your leg limbs. I believe that part falls into Rake's domain. Limbs(legs) evolution grants a +10ft speed per leg limb but does not allow you to use those limbs for claws or slam. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ever get the limbs(arms) evolutions as they wouldn't provide any benefits over limb(legs) unless you really wanted the eidolon to wield weapons.
Other than that, yeah, the Eidolon is very powerful.
Somewhere, and don't ask me to quote it, I heard you could put one set of claws on your legs. I might be wrong about that though.
Even without the claws on legs my wife's eidolon has 4 primary attacks per round at 4th level. IMO it's a weakness in the design, it should be limited to 1 primary attack form, either claws, bite, etc. Whether his BAB is lower or not isn't really relevant when he's getting 4 attacks at his highest BAB while the fighter is getting one or maybe 2 with TWF.
At higher levels this balances out quite a bit because the fighters BAB is a good bit higher but at 1-10 or so it's not that much help.
Somewhere, and don't ask me to quote it, I heard you could put one set of claws on your legs. I might be wrong about that though.
You're actually right...
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
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Somewhere, and don't ask me to quote it, I heard you could put one set of claws on your legs. I might be wrong about that though.You're actually right...
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
The version I have says
The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
There is no mention of the legs evolution at all. I'd assumed this was a deliberate omission. I am officially confused.
My understanding is there was an update that Jason posted on the forums.
Edit: d20pfsrd.com has a third completely different version and a broken link pointing to where it gets it's info from.
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I generally DM, and there is no way I would allow the Summoner class as written in my game.
Ken
Ken I totally understand your sentiment. If i am DM and am completely making the scenarios from scratch then the Eidelon is just an inconvenience that i get through by buffing the opponents my PC's face... In other words there always has to be a caster to buff or plenty o potions. When the PC's face pre written campaigns i do a lot of adjusting which is a pain. In Hook mountain massacre my PC's (3) plus eidelon tore through the ogres like chaff and didn't have much trouble with the giants either... summoner just kept pumping out monsters to keep the spell casting giant busy and poof end game.. oh well
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Count me amongst those who consider the Summoner to be overpowered. I played a level 1 summoner in an APL 4 Pathfinder society scenario, and my eidolon successfully tanked for the group. The only reason it wasn't a huge problem was that several of the PCs in that game were 4th level -- that was the only thing that kept me from completely overshadowing the other PCs.
I generally DM, and there is no way I would allow the Summoner class as written in my game.
Ken
I think much of the summoners power is skewed towards lower levels, the fighter is much more evenly balanced. With the eidolon, a summoned creature, and the summoners actions; a well built summoner/ eidolon just out-actions the fighter at lower levels. At higher levels the summoner starts cranking out more and more damage to make up the gap.
There is no mention of the legs evolution at all. I'd assumed this was a deliberate omission. I am officially confused.
- Are you sure you are quoting the final version?
- Is there a second "final" playtest version?
- Mine was DLed on Feb 1st what is the DL date on yours, maybe it was updated?
My understanding is there was an update that Jason posted on the forums.Edit: d20pfsrd.com has a third completely different version and a broken link pointing to where it gets it's info from.
Mine was Feb 4, 2010. For make sure I will download it again. You should make it too
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Well that is a problem with the mod. Any APL4 mod that can't inflict 6 (or 9 with toughness) points of damage to the Eidolon is poorly written. Any fighter level 1 fighter with a breastplate would have had more hit points and AC. And could have tanked about as succesfully.
I'd admit the Summoner is exceptionally powerful at low levels. But I would chalk most of that to having 3+mod Summon Monster 1s with 10x the normal duration at his disposal. The Eidolon justs gets run over in a single hit.
That's exactly my experience. Even eating the Eidolon's 1st level Feat for Toughness (so that it has more than 6 hit points), a 'tank' with 9 hit points, AC 16 (assuming you bought Improved Natural Armor as an Evolution, and why wouldn't you?) and attacks at +3 for 1d6+2 damage is only going to be 'better than the Fighter' if the Fighter didn't buy armor, dumped Str, Dex and Con in favor of Int, Wis and Cha and is using a club for a weapon.
The Summon Monster SLA is the bread and butter of the class, at these levels, and if anything could use a tweak downwards, it's probably the duration (1 round / level + bonus rounds equal to Cha modifier, for instance, would be decent). In the Kingmaker PBP I'm in, the Eidolon has died in almost every single combat, usually in the first hit. In another PBP, the Eidolon has mostly not been targetted, and is doing well as a flank-monkey, but still has less hit points than a Druid's Companion would.
ok our summoner has a hp of 58
Ok eidelon somewhere (i didn't look)around 80with feats and evolutions the eidelon has stats like this
29 12 17 7 10 11
str is up due to size ability inc +3 str for lev 9 and so on
BAB is 8 but the eidelon has a +9 str
soooo bite damage is d8 (large creature)+d6 cold damage(evo) +str
to add to that the claw damage with the cold as welloh and a nat armour of 9 at this time always with mage armour, haste and sometimes shield
What about the fighter, what are his abilities? In my experience and optimized fighter can easily match the output of an eidolon like the one you discribed.
At level 9 sword and board with imrpoved sheild bash and 2 weapon fighting over sized 2 weapon fighting for the heavy shield and full plate. Add in power attack and a bastard sword and you can easily surpass the eidolon's output.
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Is there a second "final" playtest version?
This.
By the way, if you have an Eidolon that's dealing straight damage, you're probably underplaying him. My Eidolon in our homegame focuses on battlefield control. He doesn't do too much damage outright, but he can "fetch" enemies, grab them in his mouth, and bring them down til they're helpless. Then, it doesn't matter how much damage he does :D
I fall into the "it's overpowered" camp too.
I had a player accidentally make a 7th level summoner [I say accidentally because I won’t allow them in my games and when he said a summoner I stupidly assumed he was talking old school and actually meant wizard conjuration specialist, which he eventually changed to after I saw the monstrosity he has created], it was so clearly going to out shine all the other players it was a joke.
I have to add that I don't think the game needs a "summoner" class. With the improvements in the summon creature lists in pathfinder an old fashioned conjuration summoner whether cleric or wizard/sorcerer can do a perfectly good job.
The name is off in my opinion as the class is clearly all about the Eidolon and how broken you can make it. A quick fix would be to half the points you get to spend on the monkey, but a better one as a DM is to say no!
It also seems slightly odd that in pathfinder the Druid [that did need bringing down a peg or three] had its animal companion nerfed so much that no one wants to even bother with it, but then the summoner comes along and re-introduces a similar set of problems by allowing it to be so customizable.
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I don't think that it is a problem with Eidelons being overpowered, it is a problem with the players min/maxing the Eidelon to the point that it is overpowered, I'am a strong opponent of min/maxxing. I think that the Gm should have some control over what the evolution of the Eidelon looks like, and not let the player get super cheezey like I have seen in a lot of these Eidelon posts. GM's are the ultimate game balancer and should have some say in the matter.
Here is a example of a Summoners Eiledon I would like to play and at lvl 20 I Think it is very reasonable.
Flavor wise Mr.Giggles is Lovecraftian flavored. He is a strange looking monstrosity his 6 legs that look like tentacles as are his 2 tails. His general body type looks like that of a whale or dolphin type creature. His head is basically the same as a Chuul full of tentacles and he has 3 long squid like tentacles on his face as well. His 2 claws are on his front legs/tentacles.
MR.GIGGLES CR 15
Male Quadruped
Medium Outsider
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +13
Aura Frightful Presence (30 feet, 5d6 rounds) (DC 17)
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DEFENSE
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AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 26. . (+5 Dex, +16 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 135 (+45)
Fort +12, Ref +14, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 50 ft., Climbing (50 feet), Swimming (50 feet)
Melee Bite (Bite) +20 (1d8+5) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +20 x2 (1d6+5) and
. . Tail Slap (Tail Slap) +15 (1d8+2) and
. . Tail Slap (Tail Slap) +15 (1d6+2) and
. . Tentacle (Tentacle) +15 (1d4+2) and
. . Tentacle (Tentacle) +15 (1d4+2) and
. . Tentacle (Tentacle) +15 (1d4+2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +20/+15/+10 (1d3+5)
Special Attacks Magic/Aligned Attacks (Acid), Trip
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STATISTICS
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Str 21, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +15/+10/+5; CMB +20; CMD 36 (44 vs. Trip)
Feats Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Lunge, Mobility, Power Attack +8/-4, Spring Attack, Toughness +15
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +18, Fly +15, Intimidate +10, Perception +13, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +18, Survival +5, Swim +13Modifiers Tail, Tail
Languages Common
SQ Devotion (Ex), Evasion (Ex), Gills (Ex), Improved Evasion (Ex), Magic/Aligned Attacks (Ex), Multiattack / Extra Attack, Pounce (Ex)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Climbing (50 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devotion (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Frightful Presence (30 feet, 5d6 rounds) (Frightful Presence) (DC 17) This special quality makes a creature's very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range i
Gills (Ex) Breate underwater.
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Lunge -2 to hit for +5' reach
Magic/Aligned Attacks (Ex) Your natural attacks are magic and share your alignment.
Magic/Aligned Attacks: Acid (Ex) Your natural attacks are magic and share your alignment.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack after a charge.
Power Attack +8/-4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Swimming (50 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Tail (Ex) Tail grants +2 Acrobatics checks for balance.
Tail (Ex) Tail grants +2 Acrobatics checks for balance.
Trip (Trip: Bite (Bite)) (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
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I think the Summoner class as a whole is better compared to its closest analogue, the Druid. The Druid obviously has better overall spellcasting than the Summoner, and a wildshaped druid should be better in melee than some guy with medium BAB and a longspear. The Summoner is a better summoner, which stands to reason, and the eidolon is better than the animal companion. It isn't much better though, at least not through 7th level.
After a quick analysis of theoretical 5th and 7th level builds I've come to some tentative conclusions:
- Eidolons do about 10-15 more potential damage per round than animal companions (5th level was 25/40, 6th 31/40, 7th 49/59) but the chance to hit is within 1
- A completely vanilla 7th level Fighter can do about 50 potential damage per round but is better against high AC foes
- The break even AC is around 20, above that the Fighter is more effective than the eidolon
My impression is that while the eidolon has a moderate edge in AC and damage over the animal companion the druid will likely make up for it and then some by being better in melee than the Summoner. Barring some kind of self buffing revelation I haven't noticed, the Summoner fights kind of like a Bard who can't sing. He's not terrible in melee, but he's not any good either, and with Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning as semi-mandatory feats he's probably not much good at ranged attacks either (unless he finds a +2 atlatl, but that's another story)
Summoner and Druid seem reasonably well balanced against each other for melee power at least up to 7th level. The Fighter's real problem is that while the other guys can fly around casting spells and turning invisible he's just some dude in metal pants. His huge number of feats can be nice for pulling off maneuvers and maybe taking a backup combat style though (maybe a bow for flying foes). I figure that eidolons might almost match Fighters for straight damage output, but Rogues can probably do that or more in the right situation (and undead no longer mean it is the wrong situation). Animal companions are only a little behind, and even the Paladin's horse can (literally) kick a lot of butt.
And no, the summoner is not at all a weak link. Boost Con high, to share hit points. Buff - your ac will be respectable. And then flood the map with summoned creatures - whether sturges or lantern archons.
That sounds like solid advice until the last bit. Flooding the map with creatures is what makes people HATE summoners with or without the capital S. Well, that and forgetting to print out all the monster stats...
What about the fighter, what are his abilities? In my experience and optimized fighter can easily match the output of an eidolon like the one you discribed.At level 9 sword and board with imrpoved sheild bash and 2 weapon fighting over sized 2 weapon fighting for the heavy shield and full plate. Add in power attack and a bastard sword and you can easily surpass the eidolon's output.
also, the fighter can't be banished, has better saves, can't have damage to his unarmored friend take him out of the fight, doesn't have to split his magic items, can wear (enchanted) armor, has options on how to be effective in combat (besides tentacle spam or pounce), more hit points *and* on top of being better by default can then be buffed.
Also the summoner can pay hp to keep the eidolon from being banished which happens at -con at which point the eidolon is unconsious. So that isn't as nice as it sounds.
also, the fighter can't be banished, has better saves, can't have damage to his unarmored friend take him out of the fight, doesn't have to split his magic items, can wear (enchanted) armor, has options on how to be effective in combat (besides tentacle spam or pounce), more hit points *and* on top of being better by default can then be buffed.
Also the summoner can pay hp to keep the eidolon from being banished which happens at -con at which point the eidolon is unconsious. So that isn't as nice as it sounds.
On the other hand, the Fighter can't make a full attack after charging (ok, ok, you mentioned pounce, it bears repeating though), scale up to Huge (or Gargantuan with Enlarge Person), and cast a spell each round on top of the full attack.
If their DM allows it a summoner could, in an emergency, resummon each round to double the number of actions their summons get because of the line "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."
At least according to the flat reading of the rules, that would allow them to have their Eidolon Act, their current summon act, resummon, and have the new summon act as well (at least according to the wording of Summon Monster) giving them roughly three and a half times as many actions as most characters (3 standards and 4 move-equivalent actions). I probably wouldn't allow this as a DM, I imagine most wouldn't, just pointing out that RAW, it should work with how the ability is worded.
After a quick analysis of theoretical 5th and 7th level builds I've come to some tentative conclusions:
- Eidolons do about 10-15 more potential damage per round than animal companions (5th level was 25/40, 6th 31/40, 7th 49/59) but the chance to hit is within 1
I think your calculations are very tentative. If you look earlier in the thread, you will see that I devised a 6th level Eidolon that hadn't used up all its evolution pool points and only 1 of its feats selected averaging nearly 90 points of potential damage a round excluding possible criticals. Its attacks were +13 to hit with power attack on. That's quite a substantial mark up from the 31 you calculated for an animal companion.
You are probably not taking into consideration how lethal an Eidolon can be made in the hands of a munchkin or powergamer due to its extreme optimisation potential.
If their DM allows it a summoner could, in an emergency, resummon each round to double the number of actions their summons get because of the line "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."
The quoted line refers to the spell like ability of the Summoner class, specifically "cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active IN THIS WAY at one time." Does that mean that the Summoner could have multiple summon monster spells up and running, a single use of his summon monster spell like ability, plus his Eidolon all active at the same time? If so, that's alot of actions available to the summoner. Can anyone shed some light on this?
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If their DM allows it a summoner could, in an emergency, resummon each round to double the number of actions their summons get because of the line "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."The quoted line refers to the spell like ability of the Summoner class, specifically "cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active IN THIS WAY at one time." Does that mean that the Summoner could have multiple summon monster spells up and running, a single use of his summon monster spell like ability, plus his Eidolon all active at the same time? If so, that's alot of actions available to the summoner. Can anyone shed some light on this?
was discussed in another thred(dont know where). turn- sm attacks, eidolon attacks, summoner conjures another sm which dismisses first,but allowing new sm to attack. brillant idea i think.
also, the fighter can't be banished, has better saves, can't have damage to his unarmored friend take him out of the fight, doesn't have to split his magic items, can wear (enchanted) armor, has options on how to be effective in combat (besides tentacle spam or pounce), more hit points *and* on top of being better by default can then be buffed.
Also the summoner can pay hp to keep the eidolon from being banished which happens at -con at which point the eidolon is unconsious. So that isn't as nice as it sounds.
On the other hand, the Fighter can't make a full attack after charging (ok, ok, you mentioned pounce, it bears repeating though), scale up to Huge (or Gargantuan with Enlarge Person), and cast a spell each round on top of the full attack.
Neither can the eidolon, its enlarge person, it only affects humanoids, which the outsider eidolon is not.
First you ingnored the size penalty to attack. But compare it to a medium cat companion at 7th level. Or you can compare a 5th to a 5th, the 6th level break goes to the eidolon because its gets large before the companion.
It has 28 (13 base+2 companion+1 level +8 size +4 bull strength) compared to your 30 w/ bull strength. It has 3 attacks, but has pounce and rake. +12 (9 str, 5 bab, -1 size, -2 power attack) to hit at 1d6 or 1d8 + 13 damage per hit with power attack. If a pounce hits all its attacks, not crits, your looking at 83.5 average damage. That certainly seems to be in the same ballpark.
And it can wear armor. More importantly it doesn't share item slots with its master. Yes the Eidolon does offensively surpass the companion. But its not by orders of magnitude. But the druid has some pretty nice things going for it outside of the campion too.
Good pick up on the size penalty to attack.
I would suggest that 28 strength is not optimal for the companion. The extra ability point may be better served by increasing its intelligence to 3 thus bypassing the problem with teaching it tricks from the Handle Animal section. Optimally, that puts its strength at 27.
You can't really include its rake special attack with its other 3 attacks because it requires a standard action of successful grapple to use. This means it's attacking 3 times at +11 to hit with 47.5 average damage. This is better than what I thought but still a fair way off the Eidolon's damage output.
Pounce is an amazing ability which is probably balanced out by the reach (10 feet) that the example Eidolon had.
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Yep, I agree with the OP.
It seems that in most of these threads the common refrain is that "You can just banish the eidolon." Someone check for and and see what level you need to be get get banishment, or what level you should be when facing opponents who can cast banishment.
Also, many of the folks who say it isn't overpowered don't cite many real, in-game examples. Most counter-arguments are theoretical comparisons.
The Eidelon's weekness is it's Summoner. A Fighter doesn't have that weakness. If the DM doesn't go after the Summoner, then yes, I suppose an Eidelon would be "better".
If their DM allows it a summoner could, in an emergency, resummon each round to double the number of actions their summons get because of the line "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."The quoted line refers to the spell like ability of the Summoner class, specifically "cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active IN THIS WAY at one time." Does that mean that the Summoner could have multiple summon monster spells up and running, a single use of his summon monster spell like ability, plus his Eidolon all active at the same time? If so, that's alot of actions available to the summoner. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Any class with the spell Summon Monster X or Summon Nature's Ally X can summon lots and lots of critters.
If they use Extend Spell and preper enough Summons, a 10th level wizard, for example, could get easily over 50 summoned creatures on the battlefield under his control.
The Summoner class is no different. He can do exactly the same thing, plus he has the ability to use his spell-like ability just like any other summon spell (meaning, he can use it regardless of how many other summoned creatures he has) - with the obvious exception that the SLA doesn't stack with itself.
It can make a grapple as a free action, benefits of having grab along with the healthy bonus to the CMD check for that purpose. And every time it pounces it gets to use its rake attacks. Due to pouncing. Probably why I said when a pounce hits with all its attacks.
I'll admit the Eidolon generally wins offensively vs. the animal companion. By the same token the druid can overpower the summoner in spell casting more often the not. But they are in the same ballpark.
I did not know about the grab ability. That increases the damage output to 78.5 which is not far behind the Eidolon at all. The only drawback ofcourse is that it can only be used against creatures smaller than it, so medium and less. Nonetheless, you have given me a healthier respect for the big cat selection as an animal companion.
This raises the question then, is the Summoner or Druid more powerful keeping aside the animal companion vs Eidolon which has already been discussed?
For starters, is the spell Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster more powerful?
Looking at other spells, the arcane spells available to the Summoner are generally more potent than the Druid spell list but Druids have access to healing spells and have a better spell progression.
Also, is wild shape or Summon Monster as a spell like ability better?
Apologies for slightly derailing this thread, but I'm now intrigued from an optimisation/power gaming point of view to determine which class is considered better.
It can make a grapple as a free action, benefits of having grab along with the healthy bonus to the CMD check for that purpose. And every time it pounces it gets to use its rake attacks. Due to pouncing. Probably why I said when a pounce hits with all its attacks.
I'll admit the Eidolon generally wins offensively vs. the animal companion. By the same token the druid can overpower the summoner in spell casting more often the not. But they are in the same ballpark.
I did not know about the grab ability. That increases the damage output to 78.5 which is not far behind the Eidolon at all. The only drawback ofcourse is that it can only be used against creatures smaller than it, so medium and less. Nonetheless, you have given me a healthier respect for the big cat selection as an animal companion.
This raises the question then, is the Summoner or Druid more powerful keeping aside the animal companion vs Eidolon which has already been discussed?
For starters, is the spell Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster more powerful?
Looking at other spells, the arcane spells available to the Summoner are generally more potent than the Druid spell list but Druids have access to healing spells and have a better spell progression.
Also, is wild shape or Summon Monster as a spell like ability better?
Apologies for slightly derailing this thread, but I'm now intrigued from an optimization/power gaming point of view to determine which class is considered better.
I think the druid is the top class between the two. The Eidolon can be neutralized no matter what form it has.
Concerning eidolon vs animal companion, there are probably some optimizations I didn't think of, but it looks like the other posters have evened things out a bit.
For starters, is the spell Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster more powerful?
Looking at other spells, the arcane spells available to the Summoner are generally more potent than the Druid spell list but Druids have access to healing spells and have a better spell progression.
Also, is wild shape or Summon Monster as a spell like ability better?
Off the top of my head I'd say Summon Monster is stronger since a lot of the monsters get smite evil. This makes a celestial lion do more damage than SNA4's tiger. I think the SM stuff also gets more DR and a wider range of spells and spell-like abilities.
Getting stuff like Black Tentacles is certainly powerful, but the Druid probably wins in the spellcasting department with the full casting. Healing magic is also especially valuable to somebody with a pet. On the other hand, the Summoner doesn’t have to spend spell slots summoning, so he’s not as far behind as one might think.
Comparing Wildshape and Summon Monster seems a little odd since we’re already comparing Summon Monster to Summon Nature’s Ally. The Summoner’s ability to summon as a standard action is invaluable, but I’d say that the utility and potential power of Wildshape beats it out. Besides kicking some butt, you can become immune to crits and sneak attack, fly, earth glide…tough ability to beat…
Another minor point to consider would be that the Druid doesn’t need to share item slots with his animal companion. There's also the often mentioned idea that the eidolon can be banished though I wonder how often that really happens in play. Anyhow, it seems like there are viable arguments for the Druid being as good or possibly better than the Summoner. This seems relevant to the Summoner vs Fighter question since it suggests that the Summoner's power level isn't excessive compared to at least one core class (granted it is a pretty strong class)
DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
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Concerning eidolon vs animal companion, there are probably some optimizations I didn't think of, but it looks like the other posters have evened things out a bit.
For starters, is the spell Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster more powerful?
Looking at other spells, the arcane spells available to the Summoner are generally more potent than the Druid spell list but Druids have access to healing spells and have a better spell progression.
Also, is wild shape or Summon Monster as a spell like ability better?Off the top of my head I'd say Summon Monster is stronger since a lot of the monsters get smite evil. This makes a celestial lion do more damage than SNA4's tiger. I think the SM stuff also gets more DR and a wider range of spells and spell-like abilities.
Getting stuff like Black Tentacles is certainly powerful, but the Druid probably wins in the spellcasting department with the full casting. Healing magic is also especially valuable to somebody with a pet. On the other hand, the Summoner doesn’t have to spend spell slots summoning, so he’s not as far behind as one might think.
Comparing Wildshape and Summon Monster seems a little odd since we’re already comparing Summon Monster to Summon Nature’s Ally. The Summoner’s ability to summon as a standard action is invaluable, but I’d say that the utility and potential power of Wildshape beats it out. Besides kicking some butt, you can become immune to crits and sneak attack, fly, earth glide…tough ability to beat…
Another minor point to consider would be that the Druid doesn’t need to share item slots with his animal companion. There's also the often mentioned idea that the eidolon can be banished though I wonder how often that really happens in play. Anyhow, it seems like there are viable arguments for the Druid being as good or possibly better than the Summoner. This seems relevant to the Summoner vs Fighter question since it suggests that the Summoner's power level isn't excessive compared to at least one core class...
I actually play a summoner, and while an eidolon can be broken if optimized to the hilt...fighters and druids when broken can utterly destroy the summoner.
DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.