Wonz's page

vip00 wrote:

Hmm... I think I would rule with the monk on this one. The haste spell allows him to make an extra attack when taking a full attack action. The monk ability essentially adds an extra attack to the flurry of blows ability ("can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack"). So one effect changes flurry of blows, one effect changes the full attack action so I don't see why they wouldn't stack.

The problem is that flurry of blows is in fact a full-round action.

Not according to the PRD:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action

Location, Location, Location! There was actually a really good thread about a solo BBEG idea (that I'll likely steal). I believe the thread was here

The basic idea (including some awesome suggestions) is a deaf oracle with the Heaven's Mystery using Lure of the Heavens to stand in a pond. After knowing the party is nearby (alarm spell or something else to let her know), the oracle buffs up, casts silence on the door and obscuring mist in the pond. The oracle can then proceed to start summoning a whole plethora of creatures while being effectively invisible within the fog.

You can get really creative with the encounter. Maybe have her hold a charge of an inflict spell and use spring attack to come out of the fog and get back in.

Can you provide a source for why an unarmed attack (even one made with a weapon) would not add monk bonus damage? Your argument makes sense, but I'd really like to either find a reference that proves one way or another or get an official ruling.

You are so right about the wrist slot. I didn't realize they were separate...in fact I could have sworn that I read gloves and bracers fill the same slot. That fixes that problem pretty easily.

I think the usual is to find a weapon that does say that a monk can add bonus damage while making an unarmed attack with a weapon. Otherwise I could claim that my halfling has wings and can shoot pew pew lazers of disintegration out of its eyes, "The Rules don't say I can't do it!"

Thanks for the breakdown, Wonz, but I don't agree with what you've got there. I'm not trying to be antagonistic (messageboards lose inflection and I know I tend to look nastily blunt without it), I'd just like our numbers to line up. Here's the thing though: I think you straightened me out.

Your total actually shows 10 total ranks spent, not 9. And your total available skill points doesn't include the +1/level bonus for being human. However, once I punched in that Banded Mail into my generator (I only entered in the cavalry quickly to participate in the conversation; forgot armour check penalties apply to skills and ought to be included), and added that phantom 5 points I couldn't account for to ride, everything balanced! Yay!

You got me there. Should have probably checked my math before posting. But waaaait! I can fix this!

Ok so I forgot about being a human. So he has an extra 6 points.
I actually had 10 ranks in my calculations so that leaves 5 points missing.

Add those 5 points to Ride and then you can take into account the Armor Penalty from the Banded Mail(-5) And it all works out.
Ride 9 = +6(Rank) + 3(Class Skill) + 3(Dex) + 2(Animal Affinity) - 5(Banded Mail Armor Penalty including Armor Training 1)

Once of these days I'll have to write an actual generator for Pathfinder.

Edit: Fixed tags

Wonz wrote:

Drakir2010 wrote:

By putting the acolyte's favoured class bonus into skill points I was able to get HP and skill point totals I can agree with. However, there is no way I can find to get a +8 to heal: 1 skill point, +3 for class skill, +2 for Wisdom of 15. No items to enhance Heal. No feats that enhance heal. These characters do not seem to be built with traits included.

Has anyone else figured any of these out?

As mentioned above, the acolyte possesses a healer's kit which grants a +2 circumstance modifier to Heal Checks.

Blah. Missed that. Thanks Wonz.

Now what about that Cavalry (GMG 287)?
Assuming he's put all his FC into skills, he's got 8 unspent skill points by my count.

Cavalry (GMG 287) has an INT of 8. Giving it 6 ranks of skill points without counting Favored Class.

So we have 2+ INT(-1) skill points + 3 skill points for favored class.
We have a total of 9 skill points.

Now for the breakdown:

Craft(Weapons) 3 = +1(Rank) +3 (Class Skill) - 1 (Int)
Handle Animal 11 = +6(Rank) +3 (Class skill) + 0(Cha) + 2 (Animal Affinity)
Profession(Soldier) 5 = + 1(Rank) + 3 (Class Skill) +1 (WIS)
Ride 9 = +1(Rank) + 3(Class Skill) + 3(Dex) + 2(Animal Affinity)
Survival 5 = +1(Rank) + 3(Class Skill) +1(Wis)

Total ranks: 9

Surprisingly it seems the stat block's calculation doesn't seem to be taking the Banded Mail's armor penalty (-5 with Armor Training) on the Ride skill.

By putting the acolyte's favoured class bonus into skill points I was able to get HP and skill point totals I can agree with. However, there is no way I can find to get a +8 to heal: 1 skill point, +3 for class skill, +2 for Wisdom of 15. No items to enhance Heal. No feats that enhance heal. These characters do not seem to be built with traits included.

Has anyone else figured any of these out?

As mentioned above, the acolyte possesses a healer's kit which grants a +2 circumstance modifier to Heal Checks.

It is a lawful but not evil act to kill someone for breaking the law. It is an evil and chaotic act to cut the line. The Paladin can perform lawful acts without it affecting his alignment or breaking his oaths.

It might be a lawful act but it is also an evil act.

Cutting in line might be a chaotic act but it does not mean it is full on evil. It is mildly evil. The cutter isn't stabbing peasants and laughing maniacally while cutting in line.

Killing someone is generally an Evil act.

There is no need to go into black/white extremes. If someone breaks the Law it does not mean they deserve to die. Imprisonment, warnings and fines are also acceptable forms of punishment.

There should never be a reason for a paladin to kill or decapitate someone for cutting in line. Not even if it's a food line for the poor and there are hungry crying children. Remember, Paladins are Lawful GOOD not Lawful stupid. I don't even think most Lawful Evil people would go as far as killing someone for something so trivial. They would deal justice based on the crime. If it does come to blows, then the Paladin would be looking at subjugating the culprit using nonlethal means.

What would/should a Paladin actually do? Call the Guard, talk to the cutter and tell him/her to please respect others rights. It would first go the diplomatic route and when all other options are exhausted, then and only then should violence(nonlethal) be considered.

What.

I think this deserves to be repeated.

How about a Druid without an animal companion? Give him something like the Weather Domain. This would give them a good survivalist, a more nature themed character to interact with and the lack of an animal companion would help keep him/her out of the spotlight. Being a worshiper of Erastil would probably blend in nicely with the adventure path as well.

I'm partial to a gnome or a halfling. Make it a wide-eyed easily-impressed admirer of a party member with a weakness for cupcakes or some other sort of attachment to the civilized world.

The Druid fits into the role of a healer whose powers and healing resources must be used judiciously as there is no channeling.

Wonz wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

Wonz wrote:

Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.

He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!

Baaaah, look like I don't know nearly enough about Captain America as I should. :)

I still think it would be hilarious to see a "Spinning Frisbee of Slashery" being thrown across a room and lodging itself on a bad guy even though it doesn't make much sense realistically.

Wonz wrote:

Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.

He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery. Which I would allow because it sounds awesome! I would not, increase the threat range but I would let it deal slashing damage and increase the damage by 1 step while throwing the shield. This would of course be a house rule but IMO and freaking sweet one.

I see threat range and crit multipliers in this light, maybe it'll help make sense why sharpening a club/mace/shield wouldn't increase those.
Now mind you, these are general guidelines on how I see the mechanics. I make no claims that it is in anyway consistent or the intended way for the game.

Threat range is how easily it would be to land a critical hit. So a weapon who can easily slip through armor or pierce through skin to strike at vital organs would has an increase threat range. In this care, the threat ranges make sense(to me) with rapiers, kukris and scimitars.

Crit Multiplier is how disastrous it would be if that weapon managed to strike a vital organ. So things like a glaive, greataxe and other such x3 crit multipliers would tear apart a person if given the chance at an amazing and well placed strike. Example: Greataxe slashes a huge gaping wound through someone's stomach. Let's just say the guts won't be staying inside that creature for very long.

For x4 multipliers I see even more disastrous consequences. I imagine a scythe or a pick would "hook" an organ and it for a ride.

To be honest, under these criteria, a sharpened scabbard shouldn't have an 18-20/x2 crit range. I can see an argument that it "might" be a 19-20/x as an analog to a longsword or a short sword, but it would be a rather weak argument in my opinion.

So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?

Being selfish isn't evil unless you're actively hurting someone in doing so.

Seriously, come on. Cutting in line in an amusement park doesn't make a paladin fall.

What are you talking about? The mere thought of cutting in line would cause any paladin to immediately fall and have a million dollar bounty placed on his head by those of his former order. No atonement allowed!

It's far from perfect, but I just don't have a 3-D battlemat the size (and height) of my living room...

But wouldn't it be awesome if you did?

I wonder how that would look like.

So teleport is lv 5 spell, lets assume the caster is at least level 9
So per charge of teleport:
39,200 x 5 x 9 = 1,764,000g per charge.

If they want to dump 1.7M gold per charge, go nuts :P

Ummm... What? I think your math might be wrong somewhere. The formula for wands is Spell Level * Caster Level * 750gp.

a bit of a side questions. When do you have to invoke the Lunge Feat.

At the beginning of your turn?

During a full attack could I make one or two attacks then kick in Lunge and finish my remaining attacks?

*You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.*

You'd have to use it before your attacks. However, if you aren't using a reach weapon you can still hit opponents adjacent to you but you also get the reach if you are hitting others who are not.

So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?

Heres a question

One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No

Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?

Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?

Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.

1. I'll admit the character is a little gamey, but I don't see that bit of a problem with below average stats. I especially find low con, fragile characters fascinating. Not only do they have the mechanical offsets of low hp but those characters are most likely always sick in one way or another creating some great roleplaying potential. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the cooperating and teamwork spirit but low STR and DEX characters are a great outlet for roleplaying, stuff like, "hey sonny, could you help me carry this box over to the wagon." I understand these are supposed to be heroes but a break from the mold is always refreshing.

2. Depends. I don't normally play evil campaigns. Also I may not grant a Full Lich template. I'd probably limit it or restrict it in some way but mostly from the "creating challenging encounters" aspect. Then again, I'm not normally a big fan of adding templates to characters(or even using non-player races) so the answer is really on a case-by-case basis.

3. Probably not. My side is skewed in that it is a bunch of new players just looking to have some fun. Those who like being powerful either already are powerful or will let others be in the spotlight occasions. The rest just like being part of the party and helping out (especially my cleric, his goal in life is to heal EVERYONE which especially helps since we have a rather reckless barbarian with 10 Con). Then again, this is my current group. I don't normally play with anything other than close friends so we tend to be more lax on the rules/powergaming and concentrate more on the fun aspect.

Making a feat that would allow other classes levels for Rage and Rage powers would make leveling as a barbarian obsolete. There wouldn't be a reason gto get more than one level as a barbarian. Might as well have him be a Gestalt Barbarian Ranger / Gestalt Barbarian Fighter.

I don't really see how dipping into barbarian makes someone overpowered. You are still getting Full BAB + you get rage. From an optimization view, a two level dip into barbarian is all you would ever really need giving you Rage, 1 rage power and Uncanny Dodge. More rounds can be easily gained using the Extra Rage feat (If you want to help, you could make this a combat feat so the fighter can take it on one of its levels).

Now as to names:
Ranger Stacking with Barbarian:

Nature's Wrath:
Prereq: Rage Ability. Ranger Level 4?
A ranger is able to channel the power of nature into his barbarian rage allowing him to stack those levels for the purpose of gaining rage powers and rounds of raging.

Fighter Stacking with Barbarian:
Wild-Temper:
Prereq: Rage Ability. Fighter Level 4?
The fighter has learned to harness his short temper into a powerful combative force. A Barbarian can add his Fighter levels for the purpose of gaining rage powers and rounds of raging.

I've been running a lot of the PF adventure paths for my campaigns and while I enjoy them, I sometimes get the creative itch to write something myself. I've got a lot of ideas rattling around in my head, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to commit the time to writing a quality campaign, even if I get started now while they're still two-three adventures from the end of the current game.

So, if you design your own campaigns, how much time do you typically spend working on them? What are some methods you use to save time?

It really depends on the players. I only recently started DMing again this year and I've picked up a lot of new players so I've had to put more effort into preparation and trying to slowly wean them into roleplaying and the basic game mechanics.

I would say start small, then branch out as the adventure starts bringing momentum. Right now, I basically write the follow-up in the time between sessions using what comes up and my own ideas on how the campaign should go to write up an outline of the next session with perhaps some choice dialog, maps, descriptions and encounters. I normally use bestiary monsters but I do find myself making npc's for more interesting challenges and to mix things up.

I like to use Recurring villains as a way to reduce my encounter/NPC writing time which also helps keep the players engaged and asking "When's the next time we are going to kill BBEG" or "Will we ever turn BBEG to our side?"

This what works for me and my group so YMMV. I could probably write thousands of pages worth on creating campaigns and adventures especially when on a tight schedule (usually weekly, but one time I had to crunch out a session in two days).

I love how everyone is extrapolating from this one little window into the situation. Because obviously we only need RDs side to understand the dynamics of the group.

I don't think most people are even using RD's side of the story. I'm starting to think some of the posters might have a beef with RD and his powergaming ways. It's the only way that could explain all of these conspiracies RD being the dastardly mustached villain holding women hostage over train tracks. To be honest some of the comments, dare I say attacks, on RD are really off-putting and disappointing. I only recently joined these boards and everyone had so far seemed cordial and well-tempered.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with all of RD's points but I do understand where he is coming from. Even then, as a DM I am always willing to reward great roleplay and storytelling. Frankly though, the Lich template is a bit too overpowered for my tastes. I'm not a big fan of LA's so I'll probably add some sort offshoot from a normal Lich, like perhaps lowered benefits or some slight penalties. Lichdom is an easy way for other players to be under appreciated while one player hogs the "spotlight of awesome."

That being said, this is an issue that RD's DM has the final say. None of us really know the dynamics of this group and it is the DM's game after all. He/She can do whatever he/she wishes without having to be called an incompetent fool. This game is about having fun after all.

Do you remember that guys? Fun!

Lunge (Combat)

You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.

I guess I'm trying to build a fighter that has lunge, a reach weapon, and combat reflexes to get anyone that comes close to him. How possible is that?

The bolded part should answer the AoO question. You can't. Lunge's reach bonus is gone at the end of your turn so you wouldn't be able to get an AoO with Reach using Lunge.

That said, Lunge with a Reach weapon would be 15ft (but adjacent foes would still be out of range).

It was mentioned above that the ape would get 1d6+9 with just the bite attack, and 1d6+6 on a full attack. This is actually incorrect. A creature with natural attacks only gets 1.5 str with an attack if that is the *only* natural attack it has, period. Not if it's the only one he uses in a given round.

A creature with 1 bite would get x1.5. A creature with 1 claw would get x1.5.

A creature with 1 bite and 2 claws would only get x1 on each (even if he moves and only uses one in a round). A creature with 2 claws would only get x1 on each.

I clarified this with James Jacobs a while back when updating the LoF monsters from 3.5 to PRPG.

Ahh thanks for correcting me on that. I actually messed up a bit more since claws are natural weapons and wouldn't take a -5 to hit.

I'm really liking this BBEG encounter so consider it stolen! I think I'll definitely be using this encounter soon. I would definitely use most of Ice Titan's suggestions. Those are pure gold and should really allow your single evil person survive long enough to be a challenge.

Well I like it, she is fairly squishy AC not great and hitpoints quite low, but that is ok.. no fun having the PC's hit every single BBEG for several rounds, the real challenge is getting to her to finish her off.

Not sure what resources the players have though so it is hard to judge, but at this AC a 1st lvl barbarian can finish her off with a critical hit.

I don't really have much to add, played well this will easily be a nice CR 8 encounter.

I was thinking about the low AC so I thought it would be better to exchange Guiding Star for Coat of Many Stars. This would give the Oracle +7 armor AC for 80 minutes. Should help the PC last a bit longer and make for a more exciting battle.

We have 9 evolution points to burn and it comes with limbs(arms), limbs(legs) and a claw attack for free. Lets assume the claw attacks are for the limbs(legs). We burn 1 point for a slam attack, 4 points to become large, 2 points for energy attack(acid),and lastly 1 point for a bite attack. We won't even bother with the extra point we have left over.

I don't think you can put claws on your leg limbs. I believe that part falls into Rake's domain. Limbs(legs) evolution grants a +10ft speed per leg limb but does not allow you to use those limbs for claws or slam. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ever get the limbs(arms) evolutions as they wouldn't provide any benefits over limb(legs) unless you really wanted the eidolon to wield weapons.

Other than that, yeah, the Eidolon is very powerful.

I would talk to your GM. You know they are plotting against you and that you could easily take them out.
It would really be up to your GM. Personally, I'm not a big fan of introducing a new character halfway through the campaign. Sure it happens on player death but I'd rather avoid it if I can. This situation definitely qualifies as one of those avoidable moments.

I see a few of foreseeable conclusions:
1. DM rules no intra-party killing. Everyone lives. Problem Solved.
2. The Others kill you. I assume then that your DM would allow you to re-roll and come back in unless the whole thing has really been a passive aggressive BS way of kicking you off the campaign. Problem: Somewhat solved.
3. You attack first. Either you die making the above happen or you win, killing all 3. GM would probably either start a new campaign or have the other 3 people re-roll characters.
4. If you want to be sneaky (and so does your DM), turn the tables on the others. I could see the DM letting roleplay a betrayal,maybe with some minions given to you by the DM. Have the character escape and become a recurring villain and possibly tell the King about their plans, cause some problems in the campaign, maybe even splinter the current support you have in two. Setting them back and giving them another foe (usurper?) to contend with. You'd probably have to re-roll into something else though.

As a DM, the fourth one would be absolutely delicious fodder for conflict and advancing the story.

That said, if the problem keeps occurring (especially after the 3rd one) your best choice might be to bail.

Reading it again, neither of us were right.. Attacks considered to be primary attacks are always at full BAB, with no penalty. Quite a change from the old days that.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. That is quite an interesting change. I've been mentally adjusting attack values based on the -5 for secondary attacks (thinking only one of them is a primary, rest are secondary) on most creatures in the Bestiary. Guess my players will be in for some surprises soon.

In my campaign i have a druid who's animal companion is the ape. at level 4 it becomes large, and gets some rather nice stat upgrades. it gets so nice, that it often outpowers our 2h fighter, who does great damage himself. not only that, the ape gets 3 attacks, which i thought was wrong but everything i read says it gets those attacks. (i dont understand why the animal progression gets multiattack when it pretty much already has it.) it seems a bit overpowered.

I'm assuming that your characters are level 5 with the spells you've mentioned. Even then I don't see how your Fighter is getting out damaged unless he is doing something horribly wrong. Could you elaborate on their capabilities?

Assuming level 5 with a fighter of 18 str., on an attack a 2h fighter would like do 1d12,2d4 or 2d6 + 1.5xSTR damage depending on the weapon. Examples:
Greatsword +9 (2d6+6)
The Ape at Level 5 has a maximum of 22 str so on a standard action he does:
Bite +8 (1d6 + 9)
On a full attack the ape currently has the advantage of 2 extra claws making a full attack be:
Bite +8 (1d6 +6). 2 claws +3(1d6+6)

I can see a bit of a problem there but the advantages of the Ape in a full attack will be greatly diminished in the next level: When the fighter gets his second iterative attack on full attacks for:
Greatsword +10/+5 (2d6+6)

now, to be fair, the druid uses his spells to enhance the ape, making it quite powerful, things like bulls str, barkskin, magic fang.

the only justification i can think of is that the druid himself is merely support to the ape, which is his real characte(that's how it's run during dungeons/combat.)

Now that explains the disparity you might be seeing. Have you thought of maybe talking with your Druid in private and having him share some of those buffs with your fighter? I'm sure the perceived inferiority will end.

has anyone else had any issues with this? are there any rules we are missing? the fighter is built to do damage, and is being outdamaged by an animal companion and it bothers him, and to some extent me also.

This of course isn't taking into account that your Fighter likely has waaaaay more AC than the Ape making the ape easy pickings for creatures with low +attack.

I don't see how the fighter could be getting horribly outdamaged against a player but if it is actually happening then the disparity will likely diminish in a level or two.

From: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html

"You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action."

So this should exclude the above example. Since a 5' step is a free action and an attack is a standard action, you cannot perform both.

It says that but you aren't quoting the whole thing. After that paragraph you'll find this sentence:

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

So you can perform both.

I got one of them during the night watch with a worg once but now they insist on being on hose back during the night watch...

Horseback during the night watch? Do those horses ever get any rest? If the players are literally riding the horses all day and then they keep the horses up to patrol at night that horse isn't going to be very happy, not to mention it wouldn't last for very long.

Do they carry torches around? I don't believe horses have anything other than normal vision so they could easily run into a tree. You could also rule that they are effectively blinded unless one of the is carrying a light source. (Can't carry a torch and shoot arrows though)

That said, they seem to be playing well so you shouldn't punish them just for playing smart.

However, a couple of people have already mentioned how to put a scare on them. An encounter with Large Pouncing/Grabbing cat might put a bit of fear and caution in them. Especially if all the other combatants are 100ft+ away fighting something else. Then again, that might actually kill them off so I would advice some caution if you do.

And you are in the wilderness, while I can see this happening in the grasslands, forests, swamps, mountains and hills should have some features which block line of sight and/or provide cover to approaching creatures.

Valkyrie

I like this. Don't see many Norse themes around.

Makes me think of Thane, but that might be because I remember it as the fighter with lightning magic from my Dark Ages of Camelot days.

On my end I'm also thinking of:
Weaver - For some reason I think of it as spell weaving as well as weaving in and out of combat.
Sage
Ahriman - I believe it's supposed to be a term for a destructive spirit.
Aegis
Dragoon

Eh, not my best work. Maybe I'll come up with more later.

Well according to the RAW, torches and non-magical lighting would be drowned out by the Darkness spell. Magical light sources would increase the light level of an area if they are a higher spell level than Darkness(2nd)

Now, everburning torches are technically under the effects of continual flame so it is a magical light source albeit not higher than the Darkness spell. I guess the most you could say is they cancel each other out.

Sunrods aren't tied to a spell and the description states they shed normal light so I guess that would still be stifled by the Darkness spell.

EDIT: And it looks like I was a minute too late.

Funny that in the example you used two of the spells that I like the best, Ice Storm and Shout. Haven't used these spells in PF yet because my campaign is still at lower levels, so haven't seen if they changed, but in 3.5 I liked Ice Storm because 1) there is no save; 2) the damage comes equally from cold and impact, meaning it isn't useless against cold resistant creatures; and 3) it can convert the ground around your opponents into icy, difficult terrain.

This.

Fireball sounds all fine and dandy if you want to be a pure blaster type but Ice Storm gives you amazing battlefield control, different damage types and won't get halved/negated by reflex saves or evasion.

Difficult terrains means no charging, a halving of move speed and no 5 foot steps. It's brutal to be stuck in the middle of it.

I remember there being a +2 or -2 circumstance modifier specifically mentioned in the 3.5 PHB. I use this all the time to reward player ingenuity and show that enemies aren't always stupid. My assumption so far was that it had been included into the PFRPG by default but it appears I am wrong. I can't find it anywhere. I'll keep using it but does anyone know if it is mentioned in the core rules anywhere?

Tam

I think the closest thing you can find on the Core Book is the "Fiat Rule" on page 403. The example sounds exactly like a circumstance modifier to me.

As a DM, I would rule that any round in which you make an attack counts as "attacking" and invalidates your ability to make a stealth check in the same turn. Sure, it won't stop them from restealthing the next round but at least it doesn't grant him permanent Greater Invisibility.

Other people have mentioned various spell choices such as Daylight,Darkness/Deeper Darkness and glitterdust(you can't save from glitterdust's revealing effects).

Depending on how you interpret the rules you could also say that walking through the effects of a Grease spell or hampered terrain can severely limit your rogues ability to move enough to move in, attack and run out to stealth effectively.