Let's Dish Gish

[0gre]

JRR wrote:

What's the rational on settling on this particular name?

There is no single word that fits the concept ideally and no one could come up with anything better that didn't have a ton of baggage already attached.

[JRR]

The magus' baggage is full of frankincense and myrrh.

[0gre]

Hmm... I guess I didn't pay enough attention during services because in spite of a strong Catholic upbringing I don't really associate the wise men with the term.

I take it you have a better alternative that is baggage free?

[Studpuffin]

0gre wrote:

Hmm... I guess I didn't pay enough attention during services because in spite of a strong Catholic upbringing I don't really associate the wise men with the term.

I associate them with Zoroastrianism, and I've never been religious really. I associate them with fire cults, so it seems more "cleric" than fighter-mage to me. :\

[Sagawork Studios]

Hell is this thread still going?

Sagawork Studios wrote:

One of the issues I foresee is that a lot of real names mean different things to different people. In this case, exposure to different RPGs and other games over one’s life flavor and weight words to mean different things. (snipping my own post from page 5 of this thread)

I don't know if anyone has already, but I wanted to thank Paizo for the opportunity for allowing us to own the name suggestion process. Even if it seems to have opened a can of worms.

[Erik Mona]

Stuffy Grammarian wrote:

Erik Mona wrote:

this criteria was not negotiable.

"This criterion." Criteria are plural.

I wouldn't have mentioned it, except that the plural of "magus" came up as well...

I appreciate that sort of thing.

Good catch.

[A Man In Black]

This is an interesting thread.

[nathan blackmer]

I'll be really interested to see how they balance this out. They can't make the bard seem useless, can't overpower the Eldritch Knight. They can't be a better (or even AS good as) fighter or a better (or as good as) wizard.

So knowing what they can't do... what ARE they going to do with it?

I can't say that I'm happy with Magus. The name just doesn't say anything... I'm sympathetic to the plight though, and there weren't a lot of options.

If we're going with classic religious names I probably would have gone with Templar... something indicating that the focus was more martial then mystic.

Aside from all that... thanks for listening to the community, as always, and letting us have a word.

[messy]

while my first choice was athame, magus is a good choice, too.

good job, paizo. :-)

[LazarX]

0gre wrote:

JRR wrote:

What's the rational on settling on this particular name?

There is no single word that fits the concept ideally and no one could come up with anything better that didn't have a ton of baggage already attached.

That and all the good names have already been taken either by WOTC, or Monte Cooke. :)

Although I think DwoemerBlade is still available.

[Patrick Murphy]

Didn't read everything so forgive me if these are already mentioned:

Thanatos

Bellus

Energon

Thaumaturge

Morphus

Savant

Guerre

Warden

Sorciere

[DeathQuaker]

Patrick Murphy wrote:

Didn't read everything so forgive me if these are already mentioned:

They already picked "Magus." Sorry, man.

[Loopy]

nathan blackmer wrote:

I'll be really interested to see how they balance this out. They can't make the bard seem useless, can't overpower the Eldritch Knight. They can't be a better (or even AS good as) fighter or a better (or as good as) wizard.

So knowing what they can't do... what ARE they going to do with it?

I'd assume that their abilities will be far more in line with mixing spells and martial combat rather than just having both at the same time. While the Eldrich Knight is a good class in my opinion, either another base class or some more feats would have been required to mix it up a bit more. I was actually expecting some Eldrich Knight variant abilities in the APG but a different core class will be fine too. /shrug.

[Stabracadabra Alakazam]

Joe Wells wrote:

Uncle Erik's Awesome Guide to Magic and Stabbing?

Just make the stuff between the covers good and it won't matter.

I want two copies of this!

[James Jacobs]

messy wrote:

while my first choice was athame, magus is a good choice, too.

good job, paizo. :-)

Athame was an interesting choice, but since the actual real-world definition of the word is of a knife, we didn't want to imply that this class couldn't use any non-knife weapon. Same reason we didn't consider names like "spellblade" or something like that (also, of course, because "spellblade" is a two word mashup).

[DeathQuaker]

James Jacobs wrote:

messy wrote:

while my first choice was athame, magus is a good choice, too.

good job, paizo. :-)

Athame was an interesting choice, but since the actual real-world definition of the word is of a knife, we didn't want to imply that this class couldn't use any non-knife weapon. Same reason we didn't consider names like "spellblade" or something like that (also, of course, because "spellblade" is a two word mashup).

The actual real world definition of "magus" has to do with hermetic metaphysicists, amongst a few others, none of which have to do with being a spellwarrior in the "gish" sense, so there's not a real consistency of logic here.

I can however see others' logic of, "Don't name it after a thing, name it an actual title given to a person."

[Dragonborn3]

James Jacobs wrote:

messy wrote:

while my first choice was athame, magus is a good choice, too.

good job, paizo. :-)

Athame was an interesting choice,

(^-^)

James Jacobs wrote:

but since the actual real-world definition of the word is of a knife, we didn't want to imply that this class couldn't use any non-knife weapon.

(T-T)

[Sebastian]

James Jacobs wrote:

messy wrote:

while my first choice was athame, magus is a good choice, too.

good job, paizo. :-)

Athame was an interesting choice, but since the actual real-world definition of the word is of a knife, we didn't want to imply that this class couldn't use any non-knife weapon. Same reason we didn't consider names like "spellblade" or something like that (also, of course, because "spellblade" is a two word mashup).

Oh man, that would be cool - a knife based fighter/mage. That should be an archtype if you get to that point with the class...

[Evil Lincoln]

DeathQuaker wrote:

The actual real world definition of "magus" has to do with hermetic metaphysicists, amongst a few others, none of which have to do with being a spellwarrior in the "gish" sense, so there's not a real consistency of logic here.

Actually... the etymology of Magus is quite a bit older than the actual (but not purported) age of the writings of the fictional Hermes Trismagestus — the supposed inventor of the Hermetic tradition of magic. Most scholars of the philosophy of science agree that Trismagestus is a character invented by alchemists to extend validity to their claims, sometime around the 14th or 15th century (IIRC).

Apple Dictionary Application wrote:

magus

noun ( pl. magi)
a member of a priestly caste of ancient Persia. See also Magi .
• a sorcerer.
ORIGIN Middle English : via Latin and Greek from Old Persian maguš.

That would put the priestly orders of Persia considerably ahead of your hermetic definition.

Even so, there is a long tradition in fiction of applying the title to non-priestly magicians, notably The Magus by John Fowles. Basically, the new class is called "Mage" by a more antiquated name. That's fine with me, I seriously doubt any other real term would be much better.

[DeathQuaker]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

The actual real world definition of "magus" has to do with hermetic metaphysicists, amongst a few others, none of which have to do with being a spellwarrior in the "gish" sense, so there's not a real consistency of logic here.

Actually... the etymology of Magus is quite a bit older than the actual (but not purported) age of the writings of the fictional Hermes Trismagestus — the supposed inventor of the Hermetic tradition of magic. Most scholars of the philosophy of science agree that Trismagestus is a character invented by alchemists to extend validity to their claims, sometime around the 14th or 15th century (IIRC).

Apple Dictionary Application wrote:

magus

noun ( pl. magi)
a member of a priestly caste of ancient Persia. See also Magi .
• a sorcerer.
ORIGIN Middle English : via Latin and Greek from Old Persian maguš.

That would put the priestly orders of Persia considerably ahead of your hermetic definition.

Even so, there is a long tradition in fiction of applying the title to non-priestly magicians, notably The Magus by John Fowles. Basically, the new class is called "Mage" by a more antiquated name. That's fine with me, I seriously doubt any other real term would be much better.

Ah, pedantry. Gotta love it. :) (Obviously, I am not innocent of succumbing to it. :) )

I had hoped the "amongst a few others" qualifier would cover the various histories of the word, but I guess not. Hermeticism is what I know most about, hence why that's the specific example I cited; I didn't mention the Persian roots because others had mentioned them already and I know less about them myself. But thank goodness you're here to set the record straight. *nod nod*

[Evil Lincoln]

DeathQuaker wrote:

I had hoped the "amongst a few others" qualifier would cover the various histories of the word, but I guess not. Hermeticism is what I know most about, hence why that's the specific example I cited; I didn't mention the Persian roots because others had mentioned them already and I know less about them myself. But thank goodness you're here to set the record straight. *nod nod*

Thanks for providing me with an excuse for an etymological rant!

[Loopy]

Sebastian wrote:

Oh man, that would be cool - a knife based fighter/mage. That should be an archtype if you get to that point with the class...

Very punny.

[DeathQuaker]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

I had hoped the "amongst a few others" qualifier would cover the various histories of the word, but I guess not. Hermeticism is what I know most about, hence why that's the specific example I cited; I didn't mention the Persian roots because others had mentioned them already and I know less about them myself. But thank goodness you're here to set the record straight. *nod nod*

Thanks for providing me with an excuse for an etymological rant!

Where else but the Paizo boards?! :D

[Xum]

Magus is an awesome name. Athame was one of my favorites too, but I'm very happy they stuck with my first choice :)

I came up with it for several reasons, Mage RPG, Latin, Video-games and all that. The thing is, a Wizard reminds me of a scholar, a sorcerer reminds me of a pact magic kinda guy, and a Magus reminds me of a do it all spellcaster, so, that's why I came up with it. Also, Latin names rule.

And if what James said do come true and this name replaces Gish, I'll be one of the happiest gamers in the history of mankind. And I gotta say, just nowing that a Name I chose is gonna be on one of the products of a company I respect so much is a great, great acomplishment for me. Thanks Paizo.

[Crimson Jester]

Champions has an entire line of Ultimate books.

[Sebastian]

Loopy wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Oh man, that would be cool - a knife based fighter/mage. That should be an archtype if you get to that point with the class...

Very punny.

Aw crap.

I assure you, no pun was intended. I would lose all my class abilities were I to intentionally make one...

[LazarX]

Then again, one should perhaps put things perspective. I remember a comic called Mage in which title character's main form of attack is a power channeled baseball bat.

[Stéphane Le Roux]

Erik Mona wrote:

What is a better name for the "gish" class concept?

I know it's the first message, but I still don't understand the issue.

"Gish" in a generic name. It's like "arcanist", "healer", "melee combatant", "skill monkey", whatever. When I say: "witch is some kind of arcanist and healer class", it doesn't mean that the name of the class is "arcanist" or "healer", or even "arcane healer". The name is still "witch". And if you had given different abilities to witch, she could have been a "gish class"; the same hold for the alchemist.

Now, let's say I want to create the class "elementalist". I could create another arcanist, but I want something else.

I take the bard's base (BBA, HP, spells per day, armor casting...). I add many special abilities, considering those four aspects (and the spells list also ) :
* earth aspect: buffs.
* wind aspect: movement, speed.
* water aspect: defense, some illusions like mirror image.
* fire aspect: rapid damages (in every elements).
The spells list is also designed with those aspects in mind.

Then, let's say a 10-th level elementalist is able to add energy damage to his weapon, to cast a quickened blast or self-buff a few times each day, to cast haste and mirror image, and to fly. Isn't it some kind of "gish class" ? And you don't have to use the word "gish" anywhere to describe it.

What I'm saying is that, I don't see why you need any brainstorm. It's more : "we want a class with those powers, what can be the name ?" (and between magus, warlock, jedi knight or anything, you), or "we want to create a class named XXX, what can be his powers ? Oh, I think it could be a gish class".

But you won't change the "generic name" of gish, because the players will continue to use it to designate with only one word the magus, the psychic warrior, the whateverblade, and the elementalist you will create from my exceptional idea. For example, the question "what class can I use to create a magus ?" is silly, but the question "what class can I use to create a gish ?" make sense (if I didn't make too much grammar error).

[0gre]

Stéphane Le Roux wrote:

Erik Mona wrote:

What is a better name for the "gish" class concept?

I know it's the first message, but I still don't understand the issue.

Fortunately enough people do get what he was asking for that it's been resolved already. Thanks for your input though.

[nathan blackmer]

Yeah I'm just happy no one has to use the word Gish anymore. It sounds like something you do to a girl you're never gonna see again... I really gished the %^^&*^ out of 'er.

I'm getting used to magus a bit more now. I just keep having flashbacks to Chrono Trigger, but those are good flashbacks.

I think the challenge will be unifying the class with the rest of them. Without giving it a unique spell progression chart (something Paizo has been moving away from) I'm anxious to see how they set it apart.

Actually, it would be cool if they were closer to sorcerors, having a bloodline but a reduced spell list and a bard progression.

Heh, this book is so far away that speculation is kinda pointless, but I'm excited.

I just hope the words of power magic system is badass. I couldn't help but think Wizard of Earthsea when I heard the idea, and I've always wanted something akin to that for the game.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

I am just glad we have a melee caster class.

I seriously wish we had a different name, but what ever. Magus is too generic and is supposed to mean sorcerer. Its too caster, and not enough melee or even combat oriented name. But enough of this, I just can't wait to see their melee/caster class.

[delabarre]

nathan blackmer wrote:

I just hope the words of power magic system is badass. I couldn't help but think Wizard of Earthsea when I heard the idea, and I've always wanted something akin to that for the game.

That's more like Truename magic from the Tome of Magic.

We're guessing this is going to syntactic magic (see GURPS Thaumatology for the reference), where the caster can improvise a spell from words (ie ABJURE + FIRE to improvise a resist fire). Ars Magica has a system like this.

[seekerofshadowlight]

nathan blackmer wrote:

Yeah I'm just happy no one has to use the word Gish anymore. It sounds like something you do to a girl you're never gonna see again... I really gished the %^^&*^ out of 'er.

It Does Mean something very close to that. And it has lead to at lest one awkward moment with one group I had a few years back.

[Sebastian]

I'm trying to recall what was said at the banquet - will the Magus be using the new magic system in the APG?

[James Jacobs]

Sebastian wrote:

I'm trying to recall what was said at the banquet - will the Magus be using the new magic system in the APG?

Not sure if we said at the banquet, but no. The new magic system is going to be a self-contained system for folks to use for ANY spellcaster, sort of. The magus COULD use the new magic system if he wanted, but only because we're building the new magic system so any spellcaster has the option.

[xorial]

nathan blackmer wrote:

Yeah I'm just happy no one has to use the word Gish anymore.

Gish, Gish, Gish, Gish...... Magish. :P

Actually, me too. It was misused. Gish was a Gith warrior mage, not ANY warrior mage.

[JRR]

I've never heard anyone use the word gish ever. I've seen it used exclusively on the internet. In almost 30 years of gaming - mostly D&D in some incarnation or other - I've never ever heard it used in person. I don't think the term is as widespread as forum goers seem to think.

[xorial]

JRR wrote:

I've never heard anyone use the word gish ever. I've seen it used exclusively on the internet. In almost 30 years of gaming - mostly D&D in some incarnation or other - I've never ever heard it used in person. I don't think the term is as widespread as forum goers seem to think.

I agree. I knew the word, but never heard it used. I have been coast to coast as a gamer. It never came to widespread usage that I noticed until 3e. That was about the time when everybody & their brother decided to start posting homebrew on the internet messageboards.

[Sebastian]

James Jacobs wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

I'm trying to recall what was said at the banquet - will the Magus be using the new magic system in the APG?

Not sure if we said at the banquet, but no. The new magic system is going to be a self-contained system for folks to use for ANY spellcaster, sort of. The magus COULD use the new magic system if he wanted, but only because we're building the new magic system so any spellcaster has the option.

Great. Thanks for the clarifiction.

[Old Nekron]

Warlock and Magus are the same...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Warlock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magus_%28comics%29

fans of both names can be happy! Ha!

[Xum]

Old Nekron wrote:

Warlock and Magus are the same...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Warlock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magus_%28comics%29

fans of both names can be happy! Ha!

Ahhh the good old times of Thanos of Titan...

[Studpuffin]

Old Nekron wrote:

Warlock and Magus are the same...........

Adam Warlock

Magus Comics

fans of both names can be happy! Ha!

Linkified

[Bloodwort]

.
.
Years ago I started using the term "Sahir" for an different kind of magic user.

It has a variety of meanings depending on the culture and language (Arabic or Hindu). It could mean: friend, wakeful, charming, enchanting, but it can also mean sorcerer or magician!

I know it's too late, but the term "Sahir" fits the one-word rule for a magic-using class.

[Themetricsystem]

Necro much?