Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I must admit, I'm not a huge fan of the title Ultimate Magic either. It sounds like a product from a small third party publisher - a little bit bland and leaning a little too heavily on a superlative. The other element is that it suggests further books in a series (much like Complete Mage). If that's the plan, calling it Ultimate probably makes sense to help establish the line.
A similar type of book that comes to mind is the 2e Tome of Magic. I don't have the inside scoop, but that seemed like the unofficial fourth core book for 2e and it's title is more like Grimoire than Ultimate Magic. Granted, it was more of a spell compendium type book (and dear god, if that 3.5 product wasn't a good place to use the title Grimoire, I don't know what was), so it's not an apples to apples comparison.
In any event, you guys are in a better place to consider the data on the best title name, and I imagine the content will be great no matter what. To me, the Paizo brand is the important factor, and the title is secondary. I don't think this title captures the strong flavor of your work, but maybe that's appropriate on a product that is not Golarion specific.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Guys, the title for this book is not really up to a public vote. I appreciate that there might be a better title out there, or that some of you would rather it be called something else, but it is not changing at this point.
Feel free to post alternative suggestions and what have you, but please understand that they will not be used. You might as well suggest alternative names for the sorcerer class or the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Now that you mention it, it's always bugged me that it's not Council of Rogues. The thief class isn't even in 3e! ;-)
In any event, I'm not asking for the title to be put up to public vote - I'm not a fan of consensus-based creativity. I'm just not in love with the title you're using, whether it's changing or not. I'm not going to not buy it, or ban it, or tell others to not buy it based on the title.
I just don't like it much, and hope titles of future core books will be a little less pedestrian. The quality of your work deserves a less generic sounding title.
And, if Council of Thieves had been called Adventure Path 4: Thieves Guild, I would've complained about that as well.
You might as well suggest alternative names for the sorcerer class or the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
oh good, you guys are finally reading my letters
Advanced Magic ? Magic Revisited ? Spellmastery Guide ? Guide to Stabracadabring People in the Face ? (OK, maybe not the last one)
I approve of that last one. My daddy wrote the book on it!
Yup.
Opinion follows information. :)
That's not cool. :PYup.
Opinion follows information. :)
I feel that it was.
Recursive humor limit reached.
Nothing? Really? Damn... :(
And "Ultimate Magic" is much more than just new spells for black magic, so it's not really an accurate name.As a recall, a number of historical grimoires enumerate the names of Angels and such, who featured prominently in alchemical practice. I think it is a great word for "the book of all magic", but I suppose not everyone shares that opinion. I also happen to think it would "look right" on the shelf next to Bestiary.grimoire |grim'wär|
noun
a book of magic spells and invocations.
ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: French, alteration of grammaire ‘grammar.’I agree that the word "grimoire" looks good next to "bestiary." But again, the title has to look right for more than just you and me. If the title doesn't look right to buyers and distributors and the book trade, they won't know what the book is and that can easily translate into low orders and that can easily translate into a book failing at market because no one placed orders.
And again... "Bestiary" = book of monsters, and that's accurate. "Grimoire" = book of spells and invocations (using your definition)" and that's NOT entirely accurate. This book will have a new base class, new magical options for many core classes, new feats, and some other non-spell stuff, in ADDITION to spells, of course.
I'll run the idea by Erik and the rest, but names of books aren't as much up for vote. It's actually pretty unusual for someone outside of Paizo to name a book—and that includes the book authors. We name most every one of the books we publish.
Well, could you please re-consider grimoire? Bring it up with marketing or who ever else you need to. Grimoire sounds much better, and more mature.
Uncle Erik's Awesome Guide to Magic and Stabbing?
Just make the stuff between the covers good and it won't matter.
I bet Paizo will use the title Grimoire when they publish a book that is just (or mostly) new spells.
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Creative Director
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I bet Paizo will use the title Grimoire when they publish a book that is just (or mostly) new spells.
This would be a good bet.
A big book of all spells is not a terrible idea for a book. And if we use the word "Grimoire" on something else before then... we just rob ourselves of the perfect title for that book.
3. ONE WORD: All other base classes are ONE word. This one should be no different.
I really wish I'd have been active in the forums when you posted this because I think sacrificing clarity for consistency is a no-win scenario. I would have suggested Arcane Warrior. When I think of a "Magus", I really don't think of a hybrid class at all.
Oh well. I guess that'll teach me.
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Guys, the title for this book is not really up to a public vote. I appreciate that there might be a better title out there, or that some of you would rather it be called something else, but it is not changing at this point.
Feel free to post alternative suggestions and what have you, but please understand that they will not be used. You might as well suggest alternative names for the sorcerer class or the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
<snif> Fine, I'll just have to publish the Codex Whammijammious myself! <goes off and sulks>
We're locked in with magus.Bummer. Every time I play a gish, I'll invariably picture some dude in a turban with a box of myrrhh.
I'd associate magi with Testament, rather than Pathfinder!
Agreed on this.
I also agree with another poster that since the plural of "Magus" is "Magi" -- it is going to mess with perceptions of the prolific "Staff of the Magi" and similar iconic items.
Really, of all the amazing suggestions offered, that's the best they came up with? Why did they even bother to solicit suggestions if they were just going to go with the most generic (and largely inaccurate) term?
Don't get me wrong, I really, really appreciate the fact that Paizo reaches out to the community in a way no other game developer does that I am aware of. And I realize that a side effect of that is the more people you ask, the more there is going to be a portion of people who will disagree and not be pleased. But still...
Also, declaring that it's "locked in" well before publication seems a bit... eh, overly hardcore. But it's not my company.
Well, good luck, Paizo. This is a tough crowd to please when it comes to spell-warrior classes. If the past is an indicator, the content will surpass the labels by far, at least.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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3. ONE WORD: All other base classes are ONE word. This one should be no different.I really wish I'd have been active in the forums when you posted this because I think sacrificing clarity for consistency is a no-win scenario. I would have suggested Arcane Warrior. When I think of a "Magus", I really don't think of a hybrid class at all.
Oh well. I guess that'll teach me.
If it makes you feel better, it probably wouldn't have mattered. Right or wrong, this criteria was not negotiable.
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Grimoire _might_ be a good name for a book containing only spells, but then again probably not because most of the book buyers won't know what it means.So did plenty of others, I'm guessing.
I contributed about 200 spells to that book, although only a dozen or so made it in.
The best thing about Magus is that it's practically got 'gish' right there in the name. Just pronounce it 'maygesh' as if Sean Connery was slurring it, and you've got the best of both worlds!
I also agree with another poster that since the plural of "Magus" is "Magi" -- it is going to mess with perceptions of the prolific "Staff of the Magi" and similar iconic items.
Suggest the plural of the PF class "Magus" not be "Magi". Instead, I suggest "Maggies". =D
Also, declaring that it's "locked in" well before publication seems a bit... eh, overly hardcore. But it's not my company.
If I had to guess about the biggest reason for this, I believe it would be because of the tendency for arguments to never stop. People continually suggesting names that are "obviously so much better" or even "perfect."
I'm going to guess that Paizo staff has already considered the pros and cons of the names suggested and the name chosen. The people arguing about it just present practically no new information that Paizo staff hasn't considered. So that after the new round of arguing, Paizo would just come to the same conclusion as before.
this criteria was not negotiable.
"This criterion." Criteria are plural.
I wouldn't have mentioned it, except that the plural of "magus" came up as well...
I also agree with another poster that since the plural of "Magus" is "Magi" -- it is going to mess with perceptions of the prolific "Staff of the Magi" and similar iconic items.Suggest the plural of the PF class "Magus" not be "Magi". Instead, I suggest "Maggies". =D
I heartily approve of this. Of course, then in my world, they'd have to specialize in using their magic to make golems out of paper (obscure anime reference is obscure).
Also, my nickname in college was Maggie (despite my given name being Rebecca. Don't ask.). So added bonus. :)
Also, declaring that it's "locked in" well before publication seems a bit... eh, overly hardcore. But it's not my company.If I had to guess about the biggest reason for this, I believe it would be because of the tendency for arguments to never stop. People continually suggesting names that are "obviously so much better" or even "perfect."
Have you ever been to a gaming message board? ;)
This has now started an argument that will continue on for at least 10 years, including starting flame wars between people who like "Magus" and people who will still insist upon using "Gish." :)
I'm going to guess that Paizo staff has already considered the pros and cons of the names suggested and the name chosen. The people arguing about it just present practically no new information that Paizo staff hasn't considered. So that after the new round of arguing, Paizo would just come to the same conclusion as before.
See, much as I love Paizo, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they really thought long and hard about it. Having worked for a couple (very small) publishing companies, I am well aware of the tendency to stick to RUSHRUSHRUSHWENEEDADECISIONANDWENEEDITNOWWHOCARESIFITSUCKS rather than to carefully debate or think out anything. 90% of the time this is, to be fair, because THERE IS NO TIME TO THINK. But it's a shame that the other 10% of the time, the mentality still applies.
And they may well have thought about it and just thought it was the bees' knees for reasons I may never understand. Such is life. I will somehow be able to get on in life, even knowing that this base class (that I probably won't use in my games anyway since I tend to stick to "core rulebook only") doesn't have a name I am particularly fond of. :)
I can still whine and argue about it, however, because I AM a gamer on a message board after all. ;)
I still vote for Warlock or Mystic
I still vote for Warlock or Mystic
Me too. Oh well, it could have been worse.
this criteria was not negotiable.
"This criterion." Criteria are plural.
I wouldn't have mentioned it, except that the plural of "magus" came up as well...
Ya know they had Criteria, as in more then one thing :) It was just the two words one used as an example.
Ya know they had Criteria, as in more then one thing :) It was just the two words one used as an example.
I'm aware that there were more than one.
If more than one had been intended to apply, "these criteria" would have been the thing to say, rather than "this criterion." In no way can "this criteria" ever be considered correct English, however -- even if Richard Nixon used to think it was.
when i hear magus i think soceror supreme, i think ultimate magus or arcane lord, dr strange, the last image that comes to my mind is a gish. wierd choice.
The best thing about Magus is that it's practically got 'gish' right there in the name. Just pronounce it 'maygesh' as if Sean Connery was slurring it, and you've got the best of both worlds!Set, you're a total genius! Now, whenever I read "magus," I'll think "magish," and the class name will fit perfectly.
Or take it one step further and call the class "Mage-ish". Because that's what it is. LOL
Definitely didn't kill gish. Gish is now the catch-all term for a f/mu class of any style or combination.
Magus is just another attempt at a Gish archtype.
And no, didn't particularly like the name, either. magus brings up pure spellcaster to me, not a combo class.
==Aelryinth
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Creative Director
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Gish has been in the game vernacular for decades. Since 1st edition D&D.
If in another 25 years the term "magus" has become the replacement for "gish" I'll be happy. For me, at least, it gives ME a word to use when talking about a fighter/wizard that Paizo customers will understand, and prevents me from using the word "gish" entirely which is Fine With Me.
