My group of five level-1 adventurers is standing outside the Stag Lord's fort discussing how best to conduct the assault. <sigh>
They really took to heart Oleg and Svetlana's plight and interrogated the living bandits to determine the camp's location. During the interrogation, one of the PCs demanded to know if they had seen an old man who fit the description of the PC's missing father. Seeing an opportunity for a backstory hook, I had the bandit admit that they had indeed seen a prisoner pass through the camp some days back. Inspired by the urgency of finding the PC's missing father, they headed due SW until they struck the Thorn River, then followed it downstream to the forest's edge and started exploring to discover the camp.
After a near TPK at the camp (the bandits got a few lucky rolls), they ended that fight with one charmed bandit. That bandit confirmed that an old man had passed through their camp recently. In an effort to impress upon them the viciousness and strength of the Stag Lord, I had the bandit relay that the prisoner had tried to strike the Stag Lord and got his hand crushed for his efforts.
Unbeknownst to me, this created in the group a sense of urgency to rescue the PC's father post haste! The charmed bandit provided enough information for them to follow the river down to the Tuskwater where they found the Stag Lord's fort and they're now preparing to mount their assault.
I fear a TPK is in the offing here. I've given them fair warning that they are sure to run into encounters tougher than they can handle so they'll need to be prepared to withdraw if necessary. I'm just concerned that they may all get wiped before they realize it's too late.
Some of them are advising caution, warning that they nearly TPK'd against the Thorn River camp whom they caught unawares. Out of character, I think they all recognize the lethality of what they're proposing but in character they are motivated by what they see as a rescue attempt.
Perhaps I was remiss in following up on the opportunity for a backstory hook? Any suggestions for how I might remediate this situation? Give them a reason to pull back? Allow an opportunity to "rescue" the father without storming the fort?
Shannon
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Well, Here is an Idea.
The the Father could relay the Strength of the Bandits camp, and Advise the Party they need to Train somemore, and be better equiped before they face off against the Staglord.
Are they at least close to leveling? Perhaps they'll "Ding" level during the assault?
Or... if they do assault and all "die", they could level off the experience and merely be unconscious (and captured). Then you have them as slaves to escape, etc. Rarely get to run that kind of game anymore.
It is hard to strike a balance between "Bandits are a threat that need to be dealt with." and "Holy cow we have to go kill ALL the bandits NOW."
My forum group is in constant fear that Oleg's will be burned to the ground if they are gone for more then a couple days... I really had to play up Kesten and his men-at-arms as being a formidable defense force. They're all wearing full-plate and armed to the teeth.
I think that as long as your players know that they could very well wander into encounters over their heads that you should let them play it as they feel compelled to. However, it isn't as though they are just being ninconpoops about it in an attempt to vex you as a GM (at least I hope not). It sounds as if the players themselves are a bit...oh crap what have we gotten ourselves into. The tricky thing really is that "in character" the characters don't know that they are level 1. All they know if that "I'm a big tough fighter" and "my friend's dad is being held captive."
You may need to focus your efforts into pulling some change ups on the Stag Lord's fortress that will allow them to get in, realize just how terribly outmatched they are and then return once they are a bit more powerful and prepared for the fight.
For example, you could have the Stag Lord himself be gone with a couple of the bandit leutenants. There is still far and away enough bandit action in the fort to route a group of 1st level adventurers. If they get lucky they might even succeed at their rescue attempt. Then you can stress just how bad it will be for them to hang around until the Stag Lord comes home. If they do, then that falls under "adventurer beware" and you can stomp them flat with a turbo charged group of big bad bandits.
If they do escape prior to the return of the BBG, they get to be heroes to the PC and their dad. However, once the Stag Lord find out what happened you can bet the bandits will be hunting your group and you might have your big show down at Oleg's or some other location rather than at his fort. If the PC's expect this they might fortify their position, evacuate Oleg's or something else all together. If they just think that they are off the hook and continue to adventure they might return to Oleg's one day to find a smoldering ruin with heads on spikes.
Gotta love sand box campaigns they can get so loopy and out of control that you have to sweat a little as a GM to keep up :)
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Or... if they do assault and all "die", they could level off the experience and merely be unconscious (and captured). Then you have them as slaves to escape, etc. Rarely get to run that kind of game anymore.
This is what I would do as well. You would have to take care in your description of the battle to not describe killing blows but instead describe serious woundings and fading to unconsciousness.
It would give you a chance to play up the differences among the named bandits with one group looking to torture and then execute the PCs and another looking to do something less sinister (like just enslave them or at worst execute them humanely without torture). This disagreement could lead to a fight among the bandits, give you a chance to introduce the Stag Lord's weaknesses and allow for a nighttime escape to be set up after the humane-treatment group loses the argument (perhaps after some of the torture) but before the PCs are to be executed "at dawn" or something.
Set them loose in the wilderness with no equipment and see what they do next.
I'd say the storyhook kinda lead them in the wrong direction. It happens- DMs are not omniscient. You can...
1. Go with the potenial TPK. The bandits are hard, hard people, and will defend themselves mightily. Or, considering the traps that surround the place, they may not have to. Also, keep in mind that the way the bandits fight could lead to quite the opposite if the party separates them or gets lucky with a few combat strategies(bull rush off the ramparts, etc). I'd say a TPK will probably result, but one or two people might survive and enjoy the sizable amount of XP and swag.
2. Use the storyhook to lead the characters elsewhere. It may be too late for this, but you lose nothing for attempting to try. Maybe one of the less-skilled bandits could be seen leading the father away into the
3. Let the PCs save him, but have the Stag Lord and his cronies be seriously, seriously nerfed. Or have a different group of bandits be in there(say, a token defense force, War 1, Ftr 1 and Rog 1s) and then switch the adventure around where the PCs have to defend the fort from the returning- and angry- Stag Lord. Or have the Stag Lord have moved camp to one of the other interesting areas around the Kingmaker campaign.
4. Sorry, but your dad is in another castle. Let the bandit be wrong in his estimation- maybe they break in and the pit/jail is empty, or they get some kind of proof that he isn't there, but someplace else.
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4. Sorry, but your dad is in another castle. Let the bandit be wrong in his estimation- maybe they break in and the pit/jail is empty, or they get some kind of proof that he isn't there, but someplace else.
We're sorry, but the princess you are looking for is in another castle. Isn't Bowser mean?
5. Have the bandit leading them to the stag lord actually be from a competing bandit gang, trying to get the PCs do their/his dirty work. (maybe they'll give the PC his father after the PCs destroy the fort) If they don't know the passwords then it will be a challenge to pass the zombies to get to the fort anyway, make them want to keep the capture bandit safe.
Maybe this is just the old Warhammer GM in me speaking, but...
Let the PCs assault the fort.
Let the PCs all die.
You're not their grandmother or their babysitter. You're the GM. Play the world. Remind them that they're not invincible heroes. If the PCs don't like dying, maybe they shouldn't try to kill themselves.
Who knows? They could pull it off. They could go in with stealth and precision and extreme skill and luck. They could set up each fight in their direct favor and use tactical genius to bring a 99.9% chance of loss around to their 00.1% chance of victory.
Or they could run in their waving their swords and all die within seconds.
Either or.
To steal an idea that's already in the mod:
You could also just have the zombies appear and start bashing them, and have the archers start placing bets on how fast the PCs will die. If the bandits don't actually feel threatened, why fight back? Have them start mocking their manhood (I've been playing the bandits very foul.) They like a good show. Once the PCs realize that they can't even do the OUTSIDE fight, maybe they'll reconsider the INSIDE fight. Also, while still outside, running away is much easier.
Like Ice Titan, I'm all for letting PCs choose to get themselves killed, BUT in this case, if they die, it's your fault for kiting them there too early. So I would suggest intervention at this point.
Out of curiosity, what is your party's makeup?
I like Erik Freund's idea. Maybe have the party come across a wounded bandit, who explains how the two or three of them escorting the prisoner got attacked by mites. That he's the only survivor, witnessed his best friend sucked dry by a giant tick.
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If they're dead set on assaulting the fort now, decide if you'd rather kill the party or the dad.
Put his body on the wall, or animate him and have that be the big shock.
Maybe they'll take the hint and peel off for more XP prior to reattempting this encounter.
If they don't, wipe em. You will get some groaning and moaning but its what should happen, after all.
I'm guessing that they haven't reached the fort yet, and when they do I assume they are going to do some scouting. In that case you can take this opportunity to impress upon them just how many bandits there are in the fort. If this doesn't work you can try to steer them to make the assault from a direction where they will encounter the zombies. This encounter will probably be more than they can handle, but not as deadly as an all out assault on the fort. Hopefully they take the hint and withdraw to fight another day. If they don't, let the chips fall where they may and don't show any mercy for them. Give them opportunities to withdraw, but don't fudge any dierolls. If any or all of them die, well that's the nature of the game. The beauty of Kingmaker is that in that the Swordlords of Restov can in that case send another party into Greenbelt to check out what happened to the previous party.
Since they are currently standing outside the fort watching it, I'd do one of three things:
1) have the Staglord and some of his higher level associates leave the fort together, obviously riding out to do something nefarious. This leaves the fort ill-defended and much easier to attack. It would also be an interesting time to try to get in disguised as other bandits.
2) have the PCs watch a group (maybe with a small wagon) arrive, stay a couple of hours, and then leave with obvious prisoners. Slavers have come and bought the captives! They don't have to be nearly as tough as the fort, but should have a couple of tough-looking guards to make it a good fight.
3) have the PCs notice that someone ELSE is spying on the fort. Maybe a lone druid NPC? Or a small band of non-evil fey? Or even a trio of other adventurers who have had run-ins with the bandits and don't like them. This gives the PCs a chance to try to recruit allies, or at the very least, observe a different group assault the fort and get beaten off...
I'm guessing that they haven't reached the fort yet
holy crap, I didn't even think about that one- would they even survive the trip to the fort?
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I'm guessing that they haven't reached the fort yetholy crap, I didn't even think about that one- would they even survive the trip to the fort?
Yeah- you might want to use some of the stronger random encounters to persuade them that travelling that far from base could be extremely dangerous, or at least get them to second level before they hit the fort.
My players tried taking on the fort at level 2, and between the archers and the zombies, they barely made it over the wall before deciding discretion was the better part of valor. They decided to try to explore the rest of the area before trying to go against the fort again ("We may be able to find something that can help us defeat the fort, or at least gather enough money to get that crazy hermit to make invisibility potions for us.")
Several options.
1 - Have less bandits in the fort at the time of the assault so they have some chance. Then have the missing bandits hit the party at a later point during their explorations or by mounting an attack on Oleg's.
2 - Make it clear they are over their head. Just as the party is set to assault or infiltrate the fort, have a group of bandits ride into the fort, delivering their booty / 'cut' to the Stag Lord (who says the bandit camp is the only group of bandits operating outside the bandit fort). Make the numbers big enough that the party reconsiders taking action against the fort at this time.
3 - Since it is the 'father' hook that is driving the urgency, have a group of bandits leave the fort with the father to sell him to some other group that engages in slavery. That should focus the party on following this group and leave the fort for a later time.
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If you're willing to play off the character's emotions there are a couple other directions you could take it.
Have a hangman's noose at the bottom of the hill where the bandits display their enemies as a warning to others. The half-crow-eaten body hanging from the nose is wearing a bracelet/clothing the characters know to be the father's (make it mundane enough so the bandits wouldn't have wanted to take it).
From here you have some time with options.
You could make it the father, and give the player a reason for hating the bandits even more.
You could make it a stranger who had been given the clothing items by the father (for any reason you come up with) which means the father can show up later.
Then, even after that if the group decides they want to attack the fort, the hill of zombies might be just the deterrent needed to make them run (I liked the aforementioned idea of having the archers start to take bets). Should they refuse to run, I say let them understand the world is what it is and TPK 'em.
This is exactly why in my campaign I added an additional MacGuffin quest to prevent this scenario - I knew my player would run charging off to the Stag Lord's fort if they could. So he plays his cards a bit closer to his chest in my version - Of the Thorn River bandits, only Kressle knows of the Stag Lord's existence, and she doesn't know how to get to his fort, which is cleverly hidden in a maze of natural terrain. A messenger from the Stag Lord's fort was supposed to bring a map in four parts for Kressle, Happs, and two other important bandits to carry, but two of the parts of the map were stolen by the mites and the bandit sent to retrieve them hasn't returned.
It's perhaps a bit contrived, but it means that the party has to deal with Happs, Kressle, the Temple of the Elk (where the missing bandit ended up dying after managing to get one piece back from the mites), and Tartuk (who has the fourth piece) before taking on the Stag Lord, thus avoiding a situation like this.
The tricky thing really is that "in character" the characters don't know that they are level 1. All they know if that "I'm a big tough fighter" and "my friend's dad is being held captive."
Sorry, but no. In character, they know that they are pretty inexperienced and just starting out. They shouldn't be thinking "I can handle anything" or "I'm the toughest fighter in Brevoy."
They may not conceptualize it as "level 1," but they know that they are newbies. The characters know how the (game) world works; they know that they are currently weak and will get much stronger.
A player who ignores (game) reality is, IMO, role-playing just as poorly as the player who considers their character to be nothing but a pile of numbers.
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I think the best solution would be to give the party some kind of out. The idea of finding out the character's father has been traded to or stolen by a weaker group is a good one. It allows the party to keep trying to save the father while avoiding the TPK.
I don't agree with the posters who suggest the characters should be taught a lesson and allowed to die for going up against someone stronger than them though. That kind of logic might work for a party crazy enough to go after a dragon at level 1, but I don't think it holds for a bandit lord.
As far as the characters know the bandit lord could be a 1st level warrior with an inflated reputation and ideas above his station. Or he could be a 20th level fighter out to have a bit of fun terrorising the locals. The opponent doesn't have a flag over his head revealing his level, so the party relies on a bit of guidance from the GM to know when they should be handling the threat.
In this case the GM nudged them towards the Stag Lord a little too early. That's fine and the kind of mistake that happens, but they shoudn't die for it. I'd either go with diverting them as above, or having them encounter the Stag Lord and survive. But in a way that makes it clear he's much stronger than them for now.
normally, I'd agree here, but the KM path is deliberately set up for this.
If the party goes out and gets into trouble above their weight class, they need to expect to lose. Assaulting a defended fort, filled with bandits, with undead backup is NOT something a 1st level adventurer should consider within his capacity, unless they are going about it very sneaky sneaky...a Coup de Grace against the SL while he's hammered (preferably with a 2-Handed x4 Crit weapon) and then a romping sneaky fight against bandits, lieutenants, and an owlbear could be achievable, but very dangerous and prone to failure.
If they DO try to assault the fort, I'd love to hear how it went!
The tricky thing really is that "in character" the characters don't know that they are level 1. All they know if that "I'm a big tough fighter" and "my friend's dad is being held captive."Sorry, but no. In character, they know that they are pretty inexperienced and just starting out. They shouldn't be thinking "I can handle anything" or "I'm the toughest fighter in Brevoy."
They may not conceptualize it as "level 1," but they know that they are newbies. The characters know how the (game) world works; they know that they are currently weak and will get much stronger.
A player who ignores (game) reality is, IMO, role-playing just as poorly as the player who considers their character to be nothing but a pile of numbers.
Sorry, but I disagree- this is a clear cut case of a storyhook gone wrong. They dont' know how inexperienced they are in character- the PLAYER knows that. In character, they know that their father(or their friend's father) is being held captive, and will probably die if they dont' do something. Add to that the fact that in this AP, the players are indeed the only law for MILES around, and you have a recipe for trouble, if not disaster. I'm not saying that the PCs shouldn't be killed for getting over their heads, just that they shouldn't be expected to not roleplay a situation out believably because they are low level. And they COULD indeed pull it off, Kingmaker has room for a lot of sneaky tactics for the players(and DM) to use.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'd have to fall on the side of "characters DO know they're inexperienced."
They're fresh out of whatever apprenticeship or training got them from "ordinary Joe" to "trained Joe." They have only just mustered up the skill and courage to contemplate trying out this life of adventure. They don't yet have any war stories to tell, any meaningful triumphs. They may have tagged along with a mentor or a few patrols or caravans, but the fact that they have 0 xp is a game mechanical indicator that they have never done anything of consequence on their own.
Sure, PCs may think of themselves as well-trained and prepared, certainly tougher and more ready for action than they were back when they were fresh off the farm, but they know they haven't done anything to start earning a rep.
By comparison, they know the Stag Lord and his gang are successful enough as bandits to warrant getting wanted posters. They've been out making a career out of banditry while the PCs have been training, and not just bandits but ones that are making it work. That means they've been beating up veteran, experienced caravan guards who have seen battle but weren't tough enough to stand up to the Stag Lord's forces.
From an in-game perspective, PCs know those caravan guards are seasoned professionals. They don't know that they are 1st-level warriors with the standard NPC stat block of suck stats.
By simple syllogism:
1. Stag Lord bandits > veteran guards
2. Veteran guards > inexperienced adventurers.
therefore:
3. Stag Lord bandits > inexperienced adventurers.
That's before factoring in the element of a assaulting a guarded fort (the PCs have no way to know the undead are there ahead of time, so I wouldn't count that as a deterrent).
All of this doesn't mean the PCs couldn't decide to take him on anyway, but the idea that they wouldn't know in character that the Stag Lord is likely much tougher than they are.
They could, of course, assume his reputation is all lies and propaganda, but that doesn't jibe with the fact that he his bandits have been effective at raiding the area. If his rep was falsely inflated, he'd have to be uncannily lucky to become as successful as he has at banditry.
So he's either lucky or good, or both. Either way, the PCs absolutely should be aware he and his crew are dangerous, not just a gang of mooks.
Sorry, but I disagree- this is a clear cut case of a storyhook gone wrong. They dont' know how inexperienced they are in character- the PLAYER knows that. In character, they know that their father(or their friend's father) is being held captive, and will probably die if they dont' do something. Add to that the fact that in this AP, the players are indeed the only law for MILES around, and you have a recipe for trouble, if not disaster. I'm not saying that the PCs shouldn't be killed for getting over their heads, just that they shouldn't be expected to not roleplay a situation out believably because they are low level.
I disagree with this in its entirety.
I disagree with this in its entirety.
I'm glad we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Lots and lots of interesting stuff
Some good points made there, ones I certainly didn't think of, but the issue on my side of the fence may be one of perspective- I honestly thought one of the reasons the Stag Lord and his crew were getting away with so much was because the area was so sparsely populated- we're talking frontier territory here, right? Has someone attempted to root out the SL before and been bloodily repulsed? Is it known that he has a small army in the area? Or is he just dismissed as one of many bandits? Moreover, I thought the SL was something of a behind the scenes figure, as few people even seem to know where his hideout is, much less that he even exists- just that "bandits have been a problem in the area". I don't have the original material here with me, mind.
I probably can't speak much to what my characters would do in that situation, but I'm sure my players from my weekly game would do the same thing in that storyhook/situation.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And yeah, the Stag Lord Bandits beat caravan guards, but that doesn't mean it was a fair fight.
Exactly. The bandits don't or won't fight fairly.
Will: "You'd never beat me in a fair fight."
Jack: "Well, that doesn't give me much of an incentive to fight fair, now does it?"
Will: "But you CHEATED!"
Jack: "Umm... pirate."
Knowing the bandits are cheating, lying bastards should lead the PCs to the logical conclusion that the bandits won't fight fair, are very familiar with the territory and the land, and the chance of them walking into an ambush BY the bandits is probably greater than their chance, not knowing the territory and the land or where the bandits are, of being able to turn the tables and ambush the bandits themselves.
It's more likely an ambush, from favorable terrain and all sides at once.
Again, correct.
The fact that the bandits were able to get the drop on all of their previous victims, who also knew that bandits were out there and had their guard up, would seem to suggest they are pretty good at making battles be at points of their choosing.
They probably have superior numbers, since they're getting to choose the time and place of the ambush.
Again, correct.
The bandits have superior numbers. This is well known to the PCs. Even if they are individually tougher than any one of the bandits, they will almost always a numerical disadvantage as well as a tactical one.
And what level is the average caravan guard, anyway? level 2, at most I would think. Caravan guard isn't exactly a high end job.
Again, correct.
Yet even so, those caravan guards are higher-level than the PCs at the start of the campaign (setting aside the fact that I thought part of the thread of this argument was that nobody in the game world has any concept of levels).
So, in looking at the relative advantages of PCs vs. bandits, what do we have based solely on what the PCs know in game?
BANDIT ADVANTAGES:
1. They know the terrain better.
2. They have superior numbers.
3. They almost always attack from ambush.
4. They may have a fort as their base of operations.
5. They have faced and defeated caravan guards and traders who are individually more experienced in battle and more familiar with the terrain than the PCs are.
6. They have waged an ongoing campaign of banditry successful enough that the kingdom nearby has posted small bounties on even rank-and-file bandit members and an enormous bounty on eradicating them.
7. They are led by some individually notorious bandits with a reputation for badassery, including but not limited to the Stag Lord himself.
8. The bandits have horses, which at 1st level the PCs most likely won't.
PC ADVANTAGES:
1. The bandits don't know them yet and so if they meet the bandits may not recognize them as a threat right away.
2. The PCs have a variety of specialized abilities that the bandits probably don't - mainly spellcasting and PC-level feats - since most bandits are likely to be fighter/rogue/ranger/warrior types. The PCs don't know that the bandits don't have their own spellcasters, but their M.O. seems to be not be magical.
3. The PCs are self-confident and have heroic perseverance - believing that they are probably individually tougher than the rank-and-file bandits, they hope that the bandits are bullies and will crumble if faced with a foe that is willing to fight back (which assumes that previous NPC guards, traders, and freeholders did not).
#1 and #3 are reasonable assumptions the first time the PCs meet the bandits, but if any escape an encounter, they can be sure they will no longer be true. Also, even if they don't, a confrontation with a bandit patrol or ambush gang out in the wild is a very different proposition from attempting to assault an actual fort defended by archers, with the bandit leaders most likely within to bolster their troops both in morale and in actual battle, and chased to their lair the bandits cannot afford to show mercy. The PCs have violated their home and are threatening to take what they have rightfully stolen!
Even if the PCs are quite confident of their new adventuring skills, they know starting out their careers that they have never really had to test them in the face of deadly danger. The bandits have shown their mettle already in what they have accomplished. They aren't commoners, or practice dummies, or sparring partners. They are experienced, hardened thieves, cutthroats, and woodscrafty scoundrels who have shed blood and doled out cruelty for months if not years as part of their daily bread. The bandits have spent their days beating up the people in their local villages too, and taking their lunch money. The PCs know this about them, so the fact that the PCs have done so as well isn't much of an advantage.
The PCs haven't accomplished anything. Yet. They have one consistent advantage is #2 - specialized skills, including magic - that will survive first contact with the enemy, but that's a thin advantage compared to all of the advantages held by the bandits.
Again, I'm not saying PCs would be shy about taking on a challenge, but they would absolutely know that it *IS* a challenge, and one where the deck is stacked against them if they try to go down that road before finding some way to even the odds.
Minus the unfortunate name of the person the PCs are saving (Uncle Jeb...*gigglesnort*), I like this. Lots of bloodshed(on both sides) and things happening(including levels gained). Capital.
While I agree that the characters don't realize they are "only first level", they still know they are not veteran soldiers. The GM should remind the players that they bested the bandits at Oleg's because they were defending a fortified position. When they approach the Stag Lord's fort, they should know that a frontal assault will get them peppered with arrows long before reaching the gate. The characters aren't stupid, and the GM can suggest that they either need to have a clever plan to sneak in, or that they would need to bring help if they want to chance taking the fort by force.
In some ways it is the GM's fault for adding the prisoner to the module. As far as I can tell it was added on, I don't see any reference to it in the background traits. Letting them bluff their way in pretending to be bandits and either allowing them to escape with the father or learn that he has been sold elsewhere is probably the best ways to get out of the situation.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The kidnapping plot hook is the problem here, in that it is the plot hammer forcing the PCs race to the rescue. They should probably know they're in over their heads, but they rationally can't just decide to go hunt wild boars and radish-kobolds while they know Uncle Jeb is RIGHT THERE.
I agree that placing an urgent plot hook like this but then "forcing" them to ignore it is completely metagamey.
What really should happen is:
1. Uncle Jeb is kidnapped, but they don't know WHERE he is. Which gives them all the leeway they need to search the area looking for clues about his location. They'll hit a few bandit groups plus miscellaneous other things, but perhaps the first lead they have on him is a dead end (maybe the Thorn River Camp or the kobold/mite caves). They don't get confirmation that he's at Stag Lord Central until the PCs are 2nd level already, maybe 3rd.
2. Uncle Jeb is kidnapped, the PCs find where he is, track him down, say "Whoa, we can't take out an entire fort," so they stake the place out. Uncle Jeb then gets sold into slavery (maybe he's part of a payment to the trolls or lizardfolk in Rivers Run Red) and gets sent out on a slave wagon with some bandit guards.
Then the PCs can rescue Uncle Jeb but not be compelled to assault the fort to do so.
3. Talk their way in and rescue Jeb and get away with him.
There are any number of alternate plotlines you can make that don't require the PCs to make a full assault to achieve the plot hook, and in fact if you're going to use a hook like that you really should make a point of providing them.
I'm just sayin the PCs should reasonably know going in that they are outmatched, so the DM needs to provide some alternative means of solving the problem (rescue Uncle Jeb) which don't necessarily have to be the same things that accomplish the secondary goal (kill the Stag Lord).
You go to his fort once, do the rescue, then you swear to return and wreak your vengeance upon the bandits later!
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You know, it'd be hilarious to see the player's reactions if the Father has since joined the bandit group, you know Stockholm syndrome and all that. Imagine poor guys when they realize that the 'Father' is now dressed up as one of the bandits, maybe not as well armed since he's still a new recruit.
The characters are fighting the bandits and the one character runs into his... father. They see each other, stop, maybe the father will join the characters against his former comrades. Awww...
The kidnapping plot hook is the problem here, in that it is the plot hammer forcing the PCs race to the rescue. They should probably know they're in over their heads, but they rationally can't just decide to go hunt wild boars and radish-kobolds while they know Uncle Jeb is RIGHT THERE.
Isn't that what I said earlier?
Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions. I think I'll handle it with a mix of a few different suggestions.
We ended last meeting with the group sneaking up on a patrol group of bandits outside the Stag Lord's fort (Kressle escaped from the Thorn River camp and fled to the Stag Lord's fort so I've had the bandits on high alert). I think I'll proceed from that point with the group overhearing the bandits talk about an upcoming boar hunt. Since the PC's captured father is a trapper/woodsman, one of the bandits will mention that he plans to request that the "old man" accompany the hunt to do the dirty work of cleaning and skinning the boars in the field.
The PCs have already been attacked by random boars in the area so I don't think it will be a stretch of verisimilitude. I plan on having Akiros accompany the hunting party. That will give the PCs the opportunity to rescue the father, most of them will probably live, and I can foreshadow the difficulty they can expect to face within the Stag Lord's keep by letting them see the power of one of the lieutenants.
Akiros may drop one or two of them, but they'll have plenty of opportunity to grab the old man and flee. If they decide to stand toe-to-toe, they're sure to suffer tremendous losses but I think they're smart enough to get while the gettin's good.
I'm debating the merits of having the bandits ransom back those that drop.
Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions. I think I'll handle it with a mix of a few different suggestions.
We ended last meeting with the group sneaking up on a patrol group of bandits outside the Stag Lord's fort (Kressle escaped from the Thorn River camp and fled to the Stag Lord's fort so I've had the bandits on high alert). I think I'll proceed from that point with the group overhearing the bandits talk about an upcoming boar hunt. Since the PC's captured father is a trapper/woodsman, one of the bandits will mention that he plans to request that the "old man" accompany the hunt to do the dirty work of cleaning and skinning the boars in the field.
The PCs have already been attacked by random boars in the area so I don't think it will be a stretch of verisimilitude. I plan on having Akiros accompany the hunting party. That will give the PCs the opportunity to rescue the father, most of them will probably live, and I can foreshadow the difficulty they can expect to face within the Stag Lord's keep by letting them see the power of one of the lieutenants.
Akiros may drop one or two of them, but they'll have plenty of opportunity to grab the old man and flee. If they decide to stand toe-to-toe, they're sure to suffer tremendous losses but I think they're smart enough to get while the gettin's good.
I'm debating the merits of having the bandits ransom back those that drop.
Nice. Very nice.
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Did any of you remember what lies around the keep? Chances are the party is not going to walk up the road just to say Avon calling unless they are of the type to try to con that they are more bandits on the way home to deliver their wares. Most likely they are going to attempt to sneak in during the night, and those that are waiting are quite hungry. With the sounds of combat the sentries will be alerted and then sound the alarm. The PCs then have two choices: fight it out and see what occurs, or run away.
For those who are basically saying go soft on the PCs I say screw that. This is a dangerous area and that feeling should be reinforced. It is Star wars all over again with the pcs entering the Death Star. It is up to them to decide if they attack or try a different approach.
If the PCs had any bandits left alive and found (and didn't drink) the liquor in the Thorn Ford camp, then they essentially have their invitation to the party--IIRC if they have that and dress up as bandits, they get +8 to their bluff to enter the fort.