The Oracle class is fine. Personally, I prefer clerics.
That said.
Make sure you understand all of the limitations associated with his oracle's curse. If he is blind past 30feet, then make sure you enforce it. If he is deaf, he won't hear the warning to duck and so on.
Make sure you look up his mystery power so you can avoid some of the nastier curveballs. For example, a knowledge oracle has the ability to get a +20 on int based skills, which they can combine with another ability that lets them reroll knowledge checks. That means that if the player really wants to, they can easily pass just about any knowledge check out there.
It's always up to you. Disallow any class that you don't think fits the world/scenario you are presenting.
Of course, it's always up to him to find a new DM.
Somewhere in the middle is the happy medium, where players and DMs agree on a playstyle and suitable rules to suit that playstyle. It sounds like you and this player have yet to arrive at this Nirvana.
As for your specific quesiton, you didn't explain why YOU (not I) would "have to bend the following rules." Just because the player wants the rules bent doesn't explain why he wants them bent.
I would not give starting PCs a handy haversack. Nor would I change the underlying action economy of the game. There is a reason why retrieiving things from storage takes time, even using a haversack.
So if it were me, I would tell this player:
1. I am OK with an Oracle for now, but when the official rules come out, we will modify your oracle to match any official changes. This is not negotiable. If you don't like those official changes, your oracle is free to ride off into the sunset and you can roll up some other class you're happier with - I won't force you to play a character that gets altered by the release of official rules, but you won't force me to ignore the official rules either.
2. You cannot start with a handy haversack, but you may find one in your adventures, or even purchase one when you have the gold. Note: Even if your world doesn't usually sell vorpal swords and staves of fire, there must be at least a little bit of a market for really useful utility items like haversacks and bags of holding; these are not just 'adventurer' gear since merchants and wealthy travelers all over the world would pay dearly for them too.
3. We won't be changing any game rules. Without a handy haversack, you will need the Strength to carry your stones and you will need a full-round action to ready stones from your backpack. I would allow a satchel to function like a quiver for stones however, so you could hold about 20 throwing-sized stones in a satchel. Weight would still be an issue. If you acquire a handy haversack, then we will use the rules presented in the RAW for it.
If this drives the player to a new game, then, in my opinion, he was probably too "high maintenance" for my liking anyway. I've DMed for almost 4 decades now, and I have had more than a bellyfull of whiny, manipulative munchkins who are far more interested in breaking the system and breaking the game than they are in roleplaying in my world. I really don't shed too many tears when they find other DMs to manipulate, and at this stage in my DMing life, I have very little tolerance or desire to accomodate their munchkin ways.
YMMV.
You should allow the character. But none of the extra-rules he wants. From what you write I think he has crossed the line from powergamer to munchkin. A powergamer stays in the system. If he wants to play a rock-throwing oracle that's fine. But
1) He has to earn is handy haversack.
2) He has to pull out the rocks like everybody else (if you're really generous you could allow him to take Quick Draw to be a bit faster, but that depends on YOU, YOU're the GM.
3) Never forget that YOU decide if a rule is not concretely defined. And even if you allow the crap he pulls off, all the NPC's can do the same.
4) The PDF is essentially a late beta. Things could still change. So you should buy the book and if the rules changed force him to rebuild the character with the final release.
A player known for playing eccentric characters that are borderline broken wants to create an Oracle from the Advanced Players Guide.
Would you allow his request knowing that for his character concept to work, you would have to bend the following rules:
1) He would have to own a Handy Haversack, which is above the recommended gold amount for his 4th level character's magic item allotment.
No. That sucks for him.
2) He requests that he can pull out large throwing stones from the Haversack as a free action (not a move action as per the rules) so he can move and attack every round and so he can eventually throw multiple stones in a single round (once his base attack bonus grows).
An archer can do the same thing. The problem is than archer isn't going to be a Stone mystery oracle who throws 2d4+1.5str mod rocks. This is equivalent to, say, a fighter with a guisarme full attacking from range with Deadly Aim.
I know this kind of play style. He's going to use the Oracle's insane self-buff abilities to their fullest. Assuming he plays like I built my last oracle, he'll have something like this: At 8th level, with his buffs he's going to be throwing 3 rocks a round at something like... +14/+14/+9 for 2d4+9+2+1d6+2+3+3 (2d4+1d6+19, assuming no other buffs. With a bard he could hit +18/+18/+13 for 2d4+1d6+23!)
At 10th, he'll righteous might himself for another +4 to strength (+3) and then argue he can throw rocks a size category larger (2d6). Only +17/+17/+12 2d6+1d6+21.
A fighter at tenth level might be able to throw +17/+12 2d6+20+1d6 19-20/x2 with a greatsword. An archery fighter could probably throw +15/+15/+10 for (2d8+13+1d6/1d8+11+1d6/1d8+11+1d6 x3).
It'll become even more embarassing for the fighter when the oracle convinces you he can rapid shot and manyshot his thrown rocks.
EDIT: +15/+15/+15/+10 (4d6+1d6+41/2d6+1d6+21/2d6+1d6+21/2d6+1d6+21).
The archery fighter does about.. 25/19/19 damage.
The oracle does about 58/31/31/31.
No, he throws his tiny rocks (rocks no smaller than a cat) one at a time.
3) Anytime that a rule is not concretely defined, he will attempt to abuse the power to the Nth degree.
I do this too. I don't, on the other hand, do it for make-believe-game power but for amusement. I enjoy it when things are terrible just as much as when they're not.
4) He will just use the free download and will not purchase the book for any additional information about the class that may further explain the rules behind the character.
Tell him if you think it's okay for you to not use, say, the Pathfinder Core Rulebook to run the game. If he says yes, look to 3) and then allow yourself to smile. You can now begin to play Minimus.
Knowing all this, would you think it unfair if I didn't allow the character?
No. I wouldn't say that. He's basically being a jerk. Don't let him walk over you because you're scared he might leave the game.
A player known for playing eccentric characters that are borderline broken wants to create an Oracle from the Advanced Players Guide.
Would you allow his request knowing that for his character concept to work, you would have to bend the following rules:
1) He would have to own a Handy Haversack, which is above the recommended gold amount for his 4th level character's magic item allotment.
2) He requests that he can pull out large throwing stones from the Haversack as a free action (not a move action as per the rules) so he can move and attack every round and so he can eventually throw multiple stones in a single round (once his base attack bonus grows).
3) Anytime that a rule is not concretely defined, he will attempt to abuse the power to the Nth degree. (For example, as a 3.5 shujenga, he wanted to know the elemental make up of the floor, walls, etc. in every dungeon; wanted to know if spells were more fire or water in nature - things like detect magic not fireball; had the ability to detect water so he used it to spot every invisible and hidden creature and opponents behind doors; then he sat in a boat and laughed, wanting to know how many water auras he could detect under the ship.)
4) He will just use the free download and will not purchase the book for any additional information about the class that may further explain the rules behind the character.
Knowing all this, would you think it unfair if I didn't allow the character?
1. Nope. Dont give it to him
2. He does not have rock throwing since he is not a giant which means no.3. Detect magic is not elemental at all. Detect spells dont normally go through solid objects so that would not work either.
4. If he has no printout the DM decides. That is how it is in my games anyway.
Edit:I almost missed the free action rock thing. Nope to anything being a free action unless the book says so.
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It's always up to you. Disallow any class that you don't think fits the world/scenario you are presenting.
Of course, it's always up to him to find a new DM.
Somewhere in the middle is the happy medium, where players and DMs agree on a playstyle and suitable rules to suit that playstyle. It sounds like you and this player have yet to arrive at this Nirvana.
As for your specific quesiton, you didn't explain why YOU (not I) would "have to bend the following rules." Just because the player wants the rules bent doesn't explain why he wants them bent.
I would not give starting PCs a handy haversack. Nor would I change the underlying action economy of the game. There is a reason why retrieiving things from storage takes time, even using a haversack.
So if it were me, I would tell this player:
1. I am OK with an Oracle for now, but when the official rules come out, we will modify your oracle to match any official changes. This is not negotiable. If you don't like those official changes, your oracle is free to ride off into the sunset and you can roll up some other class you're happier with - I won't force you to play a character that gets altered by the release of official rules, but you won't force me to ignore the official rules either.2. You cannot start with a handy haversack, but you may find one in your adventures, or even purchase one when you have the gold. Note: Even if your world doesn't usually sell vorpal swords and staves of fire, there must be at least a little bit of a market for really useful utility items like haversacks and bags of holding; these are not just 'adventurer' gear since merchants and wealthy travelers all over the world would pay dearly for them too.
3. We won't be changing any game rules. Without a handy haversack, you will need the Strength to carry your stones and you will need a full-round action to ready stones from your backpack. I would allow a satchel to function like a quiver for stones however, so you could hold about 20 throwing-sized stones in a...
+1
I want to know more about YOU. What's the idea behind the campaign? What types of characters would be appropriate? Wilderness? Urban? Extra-planar?
You might find players build characters that fit the theme of the campaign if they know what the theme of the campaign is.
And no, I wouldn't give out free magic items to a starting character for concept when you could just have a bag with rocks in it.
Wow...what a jerk.
I would tell this guy the following.
1. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...and why should you start with a free magic item? No seriously, I want to hear this, because its the funniest thing I've heard all day.
2. Hmm, well since your not going to magically get this Haversack how do you plan to do this? Maybe you'll get a Haversack in your adventures. But until then, you'll have to just deal with it. Also, unless you happen to have a good reason to have large throwing stones, you'll have regular ones. Lastly, I hope you like penalties to your to hit for using multiple attacks.
3. No. Simply no.
4. No books will be used unless I have had a chance to read it and even then I may still not allow it.
Lastly, I would inform this guy that he might enjoy the company of a new gaming group because I definately wouldn't deal with that $@*&.
1 - I'm surprised at everyone who has shot this down without noticing that standard gp for a 4th level character is 6000, and a Handy Haversack is only 2000. So since you're apparently using a homebrew rule here, I can't help you. Think back to why you made the rule in the first place and you'll probably come up with an answer.
2 - This is the kind of thing that I'd be willing to allow with a feat (Quick Draw in this case) to help a good player take a less-than-optimal character idea and make it more playable. That doesn't sound like what's going on here, so I wouldn't allow it.
3 - That's a problem with the player, whether or not you accept this particular character isn't going to change that.
4 - I really have no advice on this one. Among people I know, it's fairly common for the GM to be the only one who owns the books for a given system anyway.
I understand people may be using the tenor of your post to immediately want to bash your player, which I must admit is my gut reaction. HOWEVER.
You have to think if you wanted to play an Oracle, what would you consider fair and not feel penalized.
#1) No, dumb question.
#2) Uhm, drawing anything from a Handy Haversakc = Move Action. Learn to live within the rules. However, like it has been said before. I would treat rocks like ammunition(heavy amunition so weight is a factor). Let him have a Satchel that holds 20, like a quiver. And in any other fashion his rocks should be treated like a ranged weapon, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot.....
#3) Learn to deal, or tell him to hit the highway.
#4) It definitely reflects his character, but otherwise just roll with it.
1 - I'm surprised at everyone who has shot this down without noticing that standard gp for a 4th level character is 6000, and a Handy Haversack is only 2000. So since you're apparently using a homebrew rule here, I can't help you. Think back to why you made the rule in the first place and you'll probably come up with an answer.
Good catch on the Character Wealth @4th. I would start with one :)
add me to the ones that would say no to #1 and 2
Just to clarify, I'm not doing any special house rules. He gets the standard 6000 gp to spend on equipment for a 4th level character. The issue is whether or not he should have access to a 2000 gp magic item when the guidelines in the core rulebook suggest 25% total (1500 gp) for misc. magic items. It's not really that far of a stretch for me to allow the haversack.
I have a little harder time swallowing letting him pull items out as a free action instead of a move action as the rules state.
That, and not having access to the complete and finalized character write up and knowing the history of the player to create some strange characters.
I think that we're jumping into Kingmaker, a little farther than the first module (since everyone has already built up to 4th level).
It seems like you two have issues with each other outside of his Oracle character...or maybe you just have some issues with him.
Your first post comes across as more of an attempt to vent a little. That's cool, though. I can believe your player is a bit of a munchkin, but try and remember you guys are supposed to be having fun together. Being a munchkin is fun for him, but if you can point out in a calm way that you think over-optimization will ruin everyone's fun, he'll probably listen.
Now, all that said.
Personally, I would totally let a character with 6000gp buy a haversack. In fact, if no one thought of it, I'd probably suggest it.
However, what he's really asking for is not a Handy Haversack. He's not asking to break the rules, he's asking for a new item. That's okay! A good DM always finds a way to say "yes." Just come up with a new item that you think charges a fair price that does what he wants. It may not be affordable right now, but there's always a way.
There's an item in the 3.5 DMG called "Quiver of Ehlonna." It may be in PRPG Core, but I think the name changed and I didn't see it.
Anyway, it's sort of like a Haversack, but just for arrows and Javelins. It costs 1800gp. What about a variant of that that only holds rocks. Make it cost an even 2000gp and it even makes rocks instead of holding them, because why not? Rocks aren't worth anything anyway.
I've had my share of munchkin players. The trick is to take their exuberance and direct it rather than squashing it.
I was just about ready to agree with his character design - provided that he take a Quick Draw feat to pull out the stones - then I began reading a little deeper into the Oracle's revelation abilities.
Crystal Sight, which allows a character to look through walls of stone and metal; and Earth Glide, which allows a character to swim through solid stone. These seem to be potential game breakers. They would certainly spoil almost every dungeon adventure I've ever read.
These seem overpowered. Maybe I'm just uncomfortable allowing such a class into the campaign.
Don't play past level 8 then.
Ultimately I ask the player if he would want his character to come face to face with a mirror of opposition. My players know that when I ask that question it will probably happen sooner than later. If their build is really broken or too powerful they generally opt to try out another build.
In the end I hope that none of the math I put up is true and he's just tossing like 1d3 rocks.
If the math I put up is true I am legitimately sorry for your personal wellbeing as the GM who has to make encounters to threaten that.
In the end I hope that none of the math I put up is true and he's just tossing like 1d3 rocks.
If the math I put up is true I am legitimately sorry for your personal wellbeing as the GM who has to make encounters to threaten that.
Tip: Handy Haversacks completely shut down when hit by anything that prevents extradimensional travel.
Tip: Handy Haversacks completely shut down when hit by anything that prevents extradimensional travel.In the end I hope that none of the math I put up is true and he's just tossing like 1d3 rocks.
If the math I put up is true I am legitimately sorry for your personal wellbeing as the GM who has to make encounters to threaten that.
Not everything in the world cruises around their neighborhood with a high-level character who can cast dimensional lock.
I think in most cities there are something like 3 clerics who can even cast dimensional anchor, and none who can do dimensional lock.
To shut him down by having him harried by people rocking dimensional anchor is just as bad as having the mind control squad chasing down Fighterman every game.
Just say no before the game starts, kids.
Having a magic bag that acts like a efficient quiver for rocks. lol I a sure lost of mages spend tons of time crafting those. High demand for them in West Crown i hear. Lets see if he was human he tossing rocks 3ft across. So maybe 200-300lbs a piece. hmm Each rock is more than the maximum capacity of all the section combined. So he would have to keep them in a Bag of Holding IV he could have 5 rocks. And 5 rounds to pull them out. Not to mention its 10,000 gp. Says he can throw the rocks with the ability, not carry them around. So he would have to be STR 18 to be able to walk around with one at a speed of 20ft. So unless there is tons of boulders on the ground everywhere he goes. he can throw one every 2 rds. lol
Sure let him play it. Then catch his tears in a glass, so you have something to drink when he pops out with his 2d4+6 every 2 rds, or 2d4+6 2 times every 3rds. At level 8.lol
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Lets see if he was human he tossing rocks 3ft across. So maybe 200-300lbs a piece. hmm Each rock is more than the maximum capacity of all the section combined.
Actually, you have it wrong. Take Limestone, which is a middle of the road density rock. At 3 foot diameter (or 1.5 foot radius), assuming its roughly spherical and using the unit weight of solid limestone (163 lbs per cubic foot), the weight of said rock is 2,261 lbs. Good luck with that rock, hoss.
Even at 2 foot diameter, you would still be looking at 670 lbs for a single rock.
I know that it is a fantasy game and we should separate reality from fantasy blah blah blah. But I am an engineer (and a geo-engineer at that).
Was trying to be nice with only 100 lbs per foot. lol
Oops, in my first post above, I missed the bit about starting at 4th level (I read "above starting gold allotment", which isn't techincially true, and I guess my brain converted that "4th level" into "1st level" somehow). So I revise my statement about allowing him to start with a Handy Haversack. At 4th level, that's within reason and should be allowed.
I also read "large throwing stones" as being the size of his fist, not bieng the size of catapult boulders. Ordinary throwing stones are about the size of a baseball; large would be soft-ball sized or maybe just a bit bigger. Anything as big as his head would be hard to get into or out of a haversack, handy or otherwise, and nearly impossible to throw. Not to mention the weight of the things.
3) Anytime that a rule is not concretely defined, he will attempt to abuse the power to the Nth degree. (For example, as a 3.5 shujenga, he wanted to know the elemental make up of the floor, walls, etc. in every dungeon; wanted to know if spells were more fire or water in nature - things like detect magic not fireball; had the ability to detect water so he used it to spot every invisible and hidden creature and opponents behind doors; then he sat in a boat and laughed, wanting to know how many water auras he could detect under the ship.)
You are talking about Sense Elements (usuable 3/day)?
1) it is a full rd action2) He doesn't learn the location (the ability specifically says this).
3) It is 10 ft +5/rd (5 xmax Shugenja level) concentrating. So unless those invisible enemies are close (he won't know they are near).
He gets a spellcraft to better identify it. DC 30 tells him it is a creature. He learns exact nature (human, Efreeti, etc) on DC 35.
He can retry each rd.
Humanoids are every element so he can detect them if they are close, but not easy.
So he is correct aboyt detecting behind door, but it would take 2-3 rounds likely before knowing about every opponents (assuming they are close to door).
The ability is actually very well defined.
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"The ability is actually very well defined."
Which is now why I don't want him making up a character to which I don't own the book. He tends to bend (break?) rules to make a character function way outside how the designers intended.
I'm confused. Are you saying the problem is that you are not going to buy the Advanced Players Guide when it comes out or are you saying the problem is that he wants to create an Oracle now, before the book comes out?
Because at this point you are basing your decisions on the Beta playtest version of the class, not the final. It has already been said that the Oracle will be further tweaked and refined before the book comes out.
Personally (and this is just me) you might want to tell him to wait until the book comes out and then you can decide what to do at that point. It's one thing to playtest a beta version of a class but it's probably best to avoid actually using a beta version in an actuall campaign.
Also, once the actual book releases, there will be no free download so one of you is going to have to actually buy the book (or buy the PDF)
I also read "large throwing stones" as being the size of his fist, not bieng the size of catapult boulders. Ordinary throwing stones are about the size of a baseball; large would be soft-ball sized or maybe just a bit bigger. Anything as big as his head would be hard to get into or out of a haversack, handy or otherwise, and nearly impossible to throw. Not to mention the weight of the things.
For the stone mystery oracle's stone throwing revelation, he has to throw stones "two size categories lower than him" for the 2d4+1.5 str mod. Which means if he's medium, they'd be tiny, if he's small, they'd be dimin--diminuia-- really tiny.
So the stones themselves are tiny, which is like 2 and 1/2 feet space according to the book. So, the size of his head. Or a house cat.
I also read "large throwing stones" as being the size of his fist, not bieng the size of catapult boulders. Ordinary throwing stones are about the size of a baseball; large would be soft-ball sized or maybe just a bit bigger. Anything as big as his head would be hard to get into or out of a haversack, handy or otherwise, and nearly impossible to throw. Not to mention the weight of the things.For the stone mystery oracle's stone throwing revelation, he has to throw stones "two size categories lower than him" for the 2d4+1.5 str mod. Which means if he's medium, they'd be tiny, if he's small, they'd be dimin--diminuia-- really tiny.
So the stones themselves are tiny, which is like 2 and 1/2 feet space according to the book. So, the size of his head. Or a house cat.
Interesting take, but according to the RAW, a dagger for a medium-sized wielder is Tiny. And that is considerably smaller than a head or a house cat (although maybe similarly sized to a house kitten).
That's the size stone I had in mind, more or less.
I also read "large throwing stones" as being the size of his fist, not bieng the size of catapult boulders. Ordinary throwing stones are about the size of a baseball; large would be soft-ball sized or maybe just a bit bigger. Anything as big as his head would be hard to get into or out of a haversack, handy or otherwise, and nearly impossible to throw. Not to mention the weight of the things.For the stone mystery oracle's stone throwing revelation, he has to throw stones "two size categories lower than him" for the 2d4+1.5 str mod. Which means if he's medium, they'd be tiny, if he's small, they'd be dimin--diminuia-- really tiny.
So the stones themselves are tiny, which is like 2 and 1/2 feet space according to the book. So, the size of his head. Or a house cat.
Interesting take, but according to the RAW, a dagger for a medium-sized wielder is Tiny. And that is considerably smaller than a head or a house cat (although maybe similarly sized to a house kitten).
That's the size stone I had in mind, more or less.
A dagger, according to the rule book, has a foot long blade. It's about a foot and a half long (foot long blade, 6~ inch handle) altogether.
An average housecat is about 18 inches from head to rear, 29 inches from head to tail. (Thank you, google.)
The dagger is about as big as a house cat according to combat spacing rules.
I do agree that the volume is lower than what I thought, though. But he's still going to be throwing stones with a 1 foot diameter that are at least 100 or more pounds, assuming it's a perfectly round cannonball shape.
The most reasonable assumption is he will be throwing stones of the equivalent weight of a Large Weapon. The Heaviest Medium Martial Weapon from a quick glance appears to be about 12 pounds. So his stones weigh probably about 24 pounds, or softball-ish size. That weight adds up when you think about carrying 20.
Let's try to not house-rule a class into gimpdom just because one guy wants to try and break it.
I see a lot of threads like this recently, of the form
"I have a player who wants to 'x' unusual thing. I know he is going to abuse this, because he has a history of doing so, am I being unreasonable to deny this?"
Why are GMs so reluctant to just say no? Is the GM-to-player ratio so high these days that GMs have to allow players to shout BOHICA at every opportunity? If so, send some out our way, we'll be glad enough to have someone running a game that the occassional 'No' will pass pretty easily....
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Interesting take, but according to the RAW, a dagger for a medium-sized wielder is Tiny. And that is considerably smaller than a head or a house cat (although maybe similarly sized to a house kitten).
That's the size stone I had in mind, more or less.
A dagger, according to the rule book, has a foot long blade. It's about a foot and a half long (foot long blade, 6~ inch handle) altogether.
An average housecat is about 18 inches from head to rear, 29 inches from head to tail. (Thank you, google.)
The dagger is about as big as a house cat according to combat spacing rules.
I do agree that the volume is lower than what I thought, though. But he's still going to be throwing stones with a 1 foot diameter that are at least 100 or more pounds, assuming it's a perfectly round cannonball shape.
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :)
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I see a lot of threads like this recently, of the form
"I have a player who wants to 'x' unusual thing. I know he is going to abuse this, because he has a history of doing so, am I being unreasonable to deny this?"Why are GMs so reluctant to just say no? Is the GM-to-player ratio so high these days that GMs have to allow players to shout BOHICA at every opportunity? If so, send some out our way, we'll be glad enough to have someone running a game that the occassional 'No' will pass pretty easily....
If so, they should move to my neck of the woods, I constantly have to tell people we are full and recommend the few other DMs I know to them. Seems like there is a dearth of DMs or a plethora of players here in Norfolk for some reason...
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :)
: )
Level 18 fighter. 30 strength. 20 dexterity.
Two-Weapon Fighting.
Double Slice.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Catch Off Guard.
Improvised Weapon Mastery.
Weapon Specialization (Cat)
Weapon Focus (Cat)
Greater Weapon Focus (Cat)
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
Two-Weapon Rend.
Improved Critical (Cat)
Critical Focus.
Bleeding Critical.
Greater Weapon Specialization (Cat)
Dual-wields enchanted +2 flaming and +2 frost cats, tabby and siberian, respectively.
Drops 18+10+2+2+4-2, so +34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19, (1d6+10+4+2+2+2 plus 1d6 frost/fire 17-20 x2) and a 1d10+10 rend if he hits with both cats. If he criticals he does 2d6 stacking bleed.
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The problem is that I don't agree with the current write up of the Oracle class and that I think that it's inappropriate for my campaign due to some class abilities that could disrupt many standard modules. Also considering the player's history to argue for a very liberal interpretation of the rules for other non-core classes (including a 3.5 shujenga), I'd rather just disallow it.
If the actual book addresses the issues I have with the class and makes it a better fit for the campaign, I may reconsider. I'll have to wait for reviews and an indepth study of the character class.
IMHO you are the GM, if you don't think the class fits your campaign you plan to run. Then just tell them no, just explain it does fit in with the campaign and how you plan to run things and to pick something else. It really shouldn't be a problem.
He sounds like a problem player regardless of the class he plays, judging from your 4 points.
Yeah, sounds like he's going to try some funny business no matter what class he's picking.
However, if you want to avoid any particular "bend the rules" situations, the Oracle is a very poor class to use.
With open-ended curses that will require tailoring your regular description of events and will require the player to make an honest effort at not metagaming... it's hard enough when the player and DM are working together to make this class function.
If you have a player who is trying to squeeze every little bit of power he can out of you, then you are going to have arguments every single time you describe a room, and you'll have to keep telling him "no, you don't know that, you can't see/hear it, stop metagaming".
I DM'd for my brother's Oracle who had the Clouded Vision curse, and we tired of it after about a half dozen sessions, and he eventually made a different character (voluntarily, he approached me).
Between all that, and the fact that the revised final rules aren't even out yet, I'd definitely say no to the Oracle for this guy.
...It's always up to you. Disallow any class that you don't think fits the world/scenario you are presenting.
Of course, it's always up to him to find a new DM.
Somewhere in the middle is the happy medium, where players and DMs agree on a playstyle and suitable rules to suit that playstyle. It sounds like you and this player have yet to arrive at this Nirvana.
As for your specific quesiton, you didn't explain why YOU (not I) would "have to bend the following rules." Just because the player wants the rules bent doesn't explain why he wants them bent.
I would not give starting PCs a handy haversack. Nor would I change the underlying action economy of the game. There is a reason why retrieiving things from storage takes time, even using a haversack.
So if it were me, I would tell this player:
1. I am OK with an Oracle for now, but when the official rules come out, we will modify your oracle to match any official changes. This is not negotiable. If you don't like those official changes, your oracle is free to ride off into the sunset and you can roll up some other class you're happier with - I won't force you to play a character that gets altered by the release of official rules, but you won't force me to ignore the official rules either.2. You cannot start with a handy haversack, but you may find one in your adventures, or even purchase one when you have the gold. Note: Even if your world doesn't usually sell vorpal swords and staves of fire, there must be at least a little bit of a market for really useful utility items like haversacks and bags of holding; these are not just 'adventurer' gear since merchants and wealthy travelers all over the world would pay dearly for them too.
3. We won't be changing any game rules. Without a handy haversack, you will need the Strength to carry your stones and you will need a full-round action to ready stones from your backpack. I would allow a satchel to function like a quiver for stones however, so you could hold about 20
+1
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :): )
** spoiler omitted **
So.. are the cats of pure-breed to get the masterwork quality? ;)
So.. are the cats of pure-breed to get the masterwork quality? ;)
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :): )
** spoiler omitted **
Of course they are. How could I enchant a cat without a pedigree?
Of course they are. How could I enchant a cat without a pedigree?So.. are the cats of pure-breed to get the masterwork quality? ;)
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :): )
** spoiler omitted **
Magic Fang.
So are you saying you can stab someone to death with a house cat? :)
Are you kidding? A house cat is the most awesome weapon men ever conceived. No, you can't stab someone to death with a house cat. Only shred them to pieces. :D
(Great, now I have a crazy character concept of someone who throws cats in mind. Thanks. ;-( )