Can you at least then, in some official product down the road, give a trait or feat for planetouched that can push their ages out? Or one of those race options where you can drop one race bonus to pick up something else?
I guess in the meantime, I can buy 5 copies of the APG with the temporary official ages I like, give them to my gaming buddies, and if they ever get the bright idea to check online for errata, I can punch them in the face. :)
/no, not really
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Since Aasimar and Tieflings can come from any humanoid, I assumed their ages would be related to (or match) the humanoid parentage. E.g. elf aasimar would live as long as an elf would. Or, if aasimars/tieflings have longer lifespans than normal mortals, an elf aasimar would live longer than an elf and much longer than a human aasimar. I also assumed maturity to adulthood would occur at the same rate as the humanoid. These are most likely the assumptions I'll continue to have in my home games.
It would still wotk if they mature like humans and both rolled a 1 on their 50+8d100 roll. :)
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It would still wotk if they mature like humans and both rolled a 1 on their 50+8d100 roll. :)
Ehh I would do something like...
Adulthood Intuitive Self-Taught Trained
Tiefling 15 years +1d4 +1d6 +2d6
Middle Aged Old Venerable Maximum Age
45-55 80-110 150-250 250+6d%
I like this set up as it both fits with what we've seen so far of them aging like humans in the begining but allows them to reach a certain point where they just stop. I think it helps play up the inhuman nature of their origins and at the same time adds another layer of suffering to them as it allows them to even outlive their friends and just have to suffer on, it's that whole curse of life concept that makes it attractive to me. Also we have yet to see a tiefling that is old enough to counter the later ones.
Yeah. I think the best solution is to change the age of maturity but leave the longevity.
Also, I think it is OK to have a "discrepancy" between some published Golarion material and the generic Pathfinder rules, because it really isnt a discrepancy at all. There are already examples of core vs setting differences, such as Clerics being allowed to have no deity in the official rules, but in Golarion they must follow one.
So really, there is NO need for errata, since the Advanced Race Guide is the system-specific ruling. If the campaign text and character descriptions in the Golarion-specific books imply a different age for tieflings, well surely no errata is needed at all. It simply boils down to a campaign-specific difference. If anything, errata on this could be viewed as a waste of effort in light of this perspective.
I'm torn a bit too... I think overall the best bet would be to errata it to normal human lifespan, then create a Longevity feat for Aaasimar/Teiflings to use the current longer aging rules but with like half-elf maturity.
Either that, or just errata the maturity to more normal human levels might be easier (and actually how I think I'll do it in my games)
That way, both camps can have our cake and eat it too. :)
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In my games all races reach maturity at human rates, and it's middle-age onwards that set the other races apart.
This way we don't end up with Elves that can't quite master basic math while humans are already grandparents.
That said: The ARG should really make sure at least that any race that spawns from a human ends up an adult at about the same race as a human (half-elf, half-orc, tiefling, aasimar, suli, oread, ifrit etc...).
I love that dhampirs live very long, but it doesn't make sense to me that their starting age is 120 either.
In my games all races reach maturity at human rates, and it's middle-age onwards that set the other races apart.
This way we don't end up with Elves that can't quite master basic math while humans are already grandparents.
That said: The ARG should really make sure at least that any race that spawns from a human ends up an adult at about the same race as a human (half-elf, half-orc, tiefling, aasimar, suli, oread, ifrit etc...).
100% agree. I was going to post almost the same thing.
I've always imagined Planetouched similar to genetics. If a great grand parent has red hair, then your child has a chance of having red hair. Replace Red Hair with Planetouched. I've noticed that a lot of people play them as Half-Planars, even though this is not in any of the fluff I've read, but to each their own. When it comes to age, 3.5 had them age about the same as humans as well.
Vaguely on topic, but what exactly is the story with the variable portion of each race's starting age being different from race to race?
Max age, that makes sense. Some races just plain live longer.
Base starting age, that's fine too. Different races mature at different rates.
But, for example, let's say I'm a human. My starting age is 15 plus, depending on my class, 1d4 1d6 or 2d6 years. What this represents is when I get properly schooled up and get the bug to start adventuring, right? If I'm a barbarian, I know everything I need to by my late teens, if I'm a mage, I might be in my 20s, depending how long it takes me to get the fundamentals down.
But let's say I'm an elf. 110 years as a base, again, OK, elves just have a few decades in their where they're all awkward and squeaky-voiced instead of a few years, fine. On reaching physical maturity and pursuing some occupation though, we're tacking on 4d6 6d6 or 10d6 years now.
So... what does THAT represent, exactly? Mr. Elf spends 5 times as long in school as Mr. Human, but learns the same thing. Is it that elves learn more slowly? It can't be, because they gain experience at the same rate as everyone else. Maybe it's a cultural thing? The elven educational system is really lax, and only has classes one day a week? Well no, because there's plenty of mixed race societies, and we have half-elves who add on 1d6 2d6 or 3d6, and I really can't see there being specifically half-elven centers of education.
I mean, I really just can't shake the mental image of there being some magic academy with a couple elves and dwarves just getting frustrated and bullying the humans as wave after wave fully complete their studies while they're still struggling with memorizing the runes needed to jot Read Magic into their spellbooks. I've never understood why there wasn't a universal standard there.
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Maybe you wouldn't have this problem if you actually mentioned her age.Actually...
I'm going to try to get the ARG errataed so that aasimars and tieflings reach adulthood and have starting ages equal to humans. Because beyond the two contradictions Mort pointed out above...
** spoiler omitted **
A quick glance at the other race ages listed in the ARG and all those look fine—either they're like drow or svirfneblin and have always had established ages, or they're new races who haven't had significant NPC appearances that rely heavily upon their childhood history being on a time scale equal to that of a human.
Now... I suppose I COULD say "Tieflings and aasimars age differently in Golarion," but that's super obnoxious. The rulebooks don't have a built-in campaign setting, but Golarion DOES assume you're using the rulebooks, and as such, what's in the rulebooks SHOULD match what happens in Golarion as much as possible.
Grr.
?
Anyone reading Burnt Offerings would infer a human-scale age range for her, given the course of events, the timeline, and the portrayal of tieflings and aasimar everywhere up to that point until the ARG.
Honestly, the ARG's age numbers are the aberration. Everywhere else, including Planescape, they've been portrayed as aging and reaching maturity at the speed of their mortal parents. It's the ARG's numbers that don't match up with anything that has come before. Or after, in fact.
James really can't be blamed for the ARG getting it wrong.
Speaking of which, those numbers really need to get fixed for the PFS players.
I've always interpreted the Aasimar and Tiefling (really any planetouched race) ages as working like Aragorn, in that they mature at the same rate as humans to reach adulthood, but have much more vital stamina and live a lot longer, and it takes them well over one or two hundred years to reach middle age.
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Why is it a crisis? Are there some PFS players with some aberrant lifespans? I have yet to see ONE PFS scenario where the age of the character plays a role.
Speaking of which, those numbers really need to get fixed for the PFS players.
No one said anything about a crisis. It would simply be nice to have it fixed so that it's one less worry for PFS players and to curb the confusion that comes from the ARG numbers themselves, muddying actual canon info about how those races age.
It's an "it'd be nice if this could be fixed". Not an "OMG PAIZO GET IT TOGETHER".
And besides mechanics that do key off age, starting age can have a huge impact on the backstory and personality of a character. And tieflings and aasimar shouldn't have to default to "outlived their parents before becoming adults".
Creative Director
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Still, if the campaign mentioned how old she was when everything happened, maybe the mistake would not have been made so easily.
Actually... the mistake would have still been made, I'm pretty sure, since the problem occurred because the design team didn't know that the Golarion team had made those decisions, and the Golarion team didn't think to double-check that the design team was aware of those decisions. It's a problem we've taken steps to avoid in the future, I hope, but I'm sure disconnects between the rules team and the Golarion team will continue to pop up now and then.
I've always interpreted the Aasimar and Tiefling (really any planetouched race) ages as working like Aragorn, in that they mature at the same rate as humans to reach adulthood, but have much more vital stamina and live a lot longer, and it takes them well over one or two hundred years to reach middle age.Aragorn died at 150, if I remember correctly.
He died at the age of 210, after 120 years as king. He was succeeded on the throne by his son. Arwen, saddened by the loss of her husband, gave up her mortal life shortly afterwards. Arwen and Aragorn also had at least two unnamed daughters.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Aragorn_II_Elessar
He was around 87 when he met Frodo.
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Then shouldn't the tiefling and aasimar NPCS break the same rules as well?Also if we're talking about ages not matching up, how come a 19 year old Tsuto Kaijitsu can be a monk when the lowest age for a monk Half-Elf is 23?Because he's an NPC, and you get to break those kinds of rules if you want when designing NPCs.
They shouldn't have to to begin with, which they never were until the ARG rolled around.(and thankfully that's getting fixed come the next printing! WOO!) That and it would be a much more extreme case with the currently overshot ARG numbers.
The specific rules being broken are more like soft guidelines anyway, which a LOT of GMs and players do when it comes to age categories for the sake of plot and concept.
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There's also a big difference between someone starting as a monk a few years early and having an entire NPCs backstory play out when she's still a child. And still be a child when she's the BBEG for the module.Then shouldn't the tiefling and aasimar NPCS break the same rules as well?Also if we're talking about ages not matching up, how come a 19 year old Tsuto Kaijitsu can be a monk when the lowest age for a monk Half-Elf is 23?Because he's an NPC, and you get to break those kinds of rules if you want when designing NPCs.They shouldn't have to to begin with, which they never were until the ARG rolled around.(and thankfully that's getting fixed come the next printing! WOO!) That and it would be a much more extreme case with the currently overshot ARG numbers.
The specific rules being broken are more like soft guidelines anyway, which a LOT of GMs and players do when it comes to age categories for the sake of plot and concept.
Because seriously, ick.
Here's some of my ideas to resolve this problem ...
1) we can look at Planetouched non as a true race, so we cannot blame anyone for a consistent age chart - some of them may actually age faster than the medium of the "race", other may life way more time. There cannot be a manual about them, nor it can be fully known by everybody. GM decides
2) Planetouched physically mature as the mortal race they grew in, but remain in a mental state of immaturity that make them behawe and approach to life like teenagers till past sixty. think it a "grease" mentality, with no desire of responsability and such. (poor Nualia is in this group). Often they become outcast because society forces them to behave in a way they not feel right. Planetouched develop a "mental metamorphosis" at the time of their adulthood not different from mid life crisis and become fully aware of who they really are how much they can do. before this time, they behave like normal mortal of their races - even if they already know their maximum possible age. Painful events may trigger this way before it ought to be, giving you young, impulsives adult-minded aasimar or tieflings ...
3) Planetouched is an archetipe that triples the age of a race you put it without make their development stage longer. So and elf tiefling, if not a different kind of being, will became old after +800 years (or may not age at all)
The age category problems for Aasimars and Tieflings are actually more severe than most people realize. There are several races such as these that do not exist on their own but that are usually born into and/or raised as part of Human or other humanoid families. While humans can handle the slightly extended childhood of a Half-Elf, matters get totally ridiculous with most native outsider races taking 60+ years to mature -- not to mention Dhampirs, who according to the Advanced Race Guide age (and mature) as Elves.
The situation of members a very long lived race being raised by members or a much shorter lived race is covered by Forlorn Elves -- but in the fiction of the Golarion setting, other examples are notably absent. Much has been written about the problems faced by planetouched children growing up in human families, but a greatly extended childhood does not seem to be one of those problems.
For Assimars and Tieflings we have the additional problem that they are not necessarily of Human origin -- so the reverse situation from the Human/Aasimar problem occurs with Aasimars born into an Elven family.
I would propose the following solution for Aasimar, Changeling, Dhampir, Ifrit, Oread, Samsaran, Sylph, Suli, Tiefling, and Undine characters: Select a humanoid race of origin for any character of one of these races and use the age, height, and weight stats for the selected race of origin.
No changes are needed for any of the other races described in the Advanced Race Guide, as they have their own distinct societies with no dependencies on Human life cycles.
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Creative Director
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Then shouldn't the tiefling and aasimar NPCS break the same rules as well?Also if we're talking about ages not matching up, how come a 19 year old Tsuto Kaijitsu can be a monk when the lowest age for a monk Half-Elf is 23?Because he's an NPC, and you get to break those kinds of rules if you want when designing NPCs.
That's not the point.
An NPC with class levels at an age before a PC would be able to gain a 1st level in that class isn't a problem at all, and it's not the problem at hand, nor is it a problem in and of itself.
The problem is that we've done several adventure paths wherein the entirety of a tiefling or aasimar's aging process follows the assumption that they match humans, and should have human lifespans, but the Advanced Race Guide managed to get through its entire design/development/edit process without anyone realizing the disconnect between what it was saying and what we'd been saying for years in our other products. Hence, it's an error, in the same way that if the book had said "Elves have round ears" or "Halflings average at 5 feet in height" or "Tengus are snake people" would have been an error.
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I have always played it that since they are an interplanar blend of totally differing genetics, including mixing immortal, ageless beings in a jumbled up way with the bodies of mortals...
Some planetouched age slowly, some age quickly. This tends to smooth things out in an environment where people believe differing things about the age they're "supposed" to be.
Id argue that they shouldn't live long. The blood mix isn't healthy and they burn out much faster then humans.
