Flying and encumbrance

[hogarth]

Is there anywhere in the Pathfinder rules that says you can't fly when carrying a medium or heavy load?

[Eric Mason 37]

Not that I know of.

There are the armour check penalties and max dex rules for medium and heavy loads, so those would modify your fly skill checks.

I also don't know of anything that says fly speed would be immune to the speed reduction of meduim or heavy loads, so would modify the fly speed accordingly if the means of propulsion are natural. (What is the velocity of an unlaiden swallow?)

[hogarth]

I just want to make sure that they removed that bit from the 3.5 rules.

[LazarX]

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

(What is the velocity of an unlaiden swallow?)

European or African?

[Mok]

It's a bit loopy, but you find it through this chain of RAW:

PFSRD.org wrote:

Barding, Medium Creature and Large Creature

Barding is a type of armor that covers the head, neck, chest, body, and possibly legs of a horse or other mount. Barding made of medium or heavy armor provides better protection than light barding, but at the expense of speed. Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table: Armor and Shields.

Armor for a horse (a Large non-humanoid creature) costs four times as much as human armor (a Medium humanoid creature) and also weighs twice as much (see Table: Armor for Unusual Creatures). If the barding is for a pony or other Medium mount, the cost is only double, and the weight is the same as for Medium armor worn by a humanoid. Medium or heavy barding slows a mount that wears it, as shown on the table below.

Flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding.

Removing and fitting barding takes five times as long as the figures given on Table: Donning Armor. A barded animal cannot be used to carry any load other than a rider and normal saddlebags.

then...

PFSRD.org wrote:

Encumbrance by Weight: If you want to determine whether your character's gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character's items, including armor, weapons, and gear. Compare this total to the character's Strength on Table: Carrying Capacity. Depending on the character's carrying capacity, he or she may be carrying a light, medium, or heavy load. Like armor, a character's load affects his maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty), reduces the character's speed, and affects how fast the character can run, as shown on Table: Encumbrance Effects. A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. Carrying a light load does not encumber a character.

So when you combine the two bolded statements you can make the argument by RAW that creatures can't fly at a medium or heavy load.

It would be great if this was detailed in the flight skill explicitly.

[Ender_rpm]

IIRC, at some point in 3.0, a flying creature WAS restricted to a light load, and was forced to land if they were below 1/2 HP, but that all went away in later versions.

[hogarth]

Mok wrote:

It's a bit loopy, but you find it through this chain of RAW:

[snip]

Oho! The plot thickens...

[Ughbash]

Technically you would be showing that flyign mounts can not fly if in medium armor. That makes no statement on general flying creatures.

Can't argue from a specific to a general.

Example:

Johnny can't read.

Johnny went to public school.

All public school kids can not read.

[hogarth]

Ughbash wrote:

Technically you would be showing that flyign mounts can not fly if in medium armor. That makes no statement on general flying creatures.

Can't argue from a specific to a general.

Example:

Johnny can't read.

Johnny went to public school.

All public school kids can not read.

That's not the logic he's using at all:

• If a creature can't do something in medium/heavy armor, then it can't do it when having medium/heavy encumbrance. [If There Exists x Such That Not A(x), Then Not B(x).]
  
• A creature can't fly in medium/heavy armor. [Not A(x_0)]
  
• Therefore a creature can't fly when having medium/heavy encumbrance. [Not B(x_0)]

[Ughbash]

hogarth wrote:

Ughbash wrote:

Technically you would be showing that flyign mounts can not fly if in medium armor. That makes no statement on general flying creatures.

Can't argue from a specific to a general.

Example:

Johnny can't read.

Johnny went to public school.

All public school kids can not read.

That's not the logic he's using at all:

• If a creature can't do something in medium/heavy armor, then it can't do it when having medium/heavy encumbrance. [If There Exists x Such That Not A(x), Then Not B(x).]
  
• A creature can't fly in medium/heavy armor. [Not A(x_0)]
  
• Therefore a creature can't fly when having medium/heavy encumbrance. [Not B(x_0)]

No, the rules say a FLYING MOUNT can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

It does not say any creature can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

[hogarth]

Ughbash wrote:

No, the rules say a FLYING MOUNT can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

It does not say any creature can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

Oh, sorry; that's what you're referring to. At any rate, I had a flying mount in mind (a roc animal companion for a druid), so I mentally skipped that bit. :-)

[Ughbash]

hogarth wrote:

Ughbash wrote:

No, the rules say a FLYING MOUNT can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

It does not say any creature can not fly in medium or heavy armor.

Oh, sorry; that's what you're referring to. At any rate, I had a flying mount in mind (a roc animal companion for a druid), so I mentally skipped that bit. :-)

No worries, I should have been clearer.

[Wraithcannon]

Has anyone found a better answer for this question? Or any further rules to reference?

[hogarth]

Wraithcannon wrote:

Has anyone found a better answer for this question? Or any further rules to reference?

As far as I can tell, you can fly with a heavy load as long as nothing tries to mount you. :-)

You could try flagging the initial post as a FAQ, of course.

[CEFS]

It somehow feels more natural and logical to stick with a ruling that all creatures, mount or not, are not allowed to fly while carrying medium or heavy load (or wearing medium or heavy armor).

Just imagine this:
An eagle (Str 10, weighs 8-15 pounds) takes off while carrying a 100 pound deer?

Also:
A pegasus could fly at his maximum load (Str 18: 300 lbs.) but not when it carries medium load (101 lbs.) while a halfling (30 lbs.) is using it as a mount?

[Rathendar]

Claudio Flores wrote:

It somehow feels more natural and logical to stick with a ruling that all creatures, mount or not, are not allowed to fly while carrying medium or heavy load (or wearing medium or heavy armor).

Just imagine this:
An eagle (Str 10, weighs 8-15 pounds) takes off while carrying a 100 pound deer?

Also:
A pegasus could fly at his maximum load (Str 18: 300 lbs.) but not when it carries medium load (101 lbs.) while a halfling (30 lbs.) is using it as a mount?

This example pretty much showcases the issue fairly well. That said, i use the 'only fly with light encumbrance' as a general flying rule myself. So +1 to that from me. I have grandfathered in the 2 feat chain from 3.x that allows fliers to use heavier loads however.

[Siddhartasam]

Per D20PFSRD's carrying capacity page:

"Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24."

So following the eagle/pegasus model:

An eagle (small animal, str 10) can only carry [3/4*100=75] lbs in flight.

If the pegasus were a halfling's mount it would be medium, but as a quadruped would actually get a bonus to lift (according to RAW) allowing it to carry [1.5*300=450] lbs with str 18. RAI would probably not apply the four legged bonus when they are just dangling there.

I think that limiting access to armor in flight is based on both the weight lifted AND the difficulty of flying safely in heavy jangling bits of metal. Dragons seem to rock on with high Nat AC, as the difficulty maneuvering is apparently offset by the delicate counterbalance of strategic lack of armor at the "bare spot over the dragon's left breast."

[Gauss]

Oh god not this debate again! Please, please, check the vast number of previous threads on this topic.

Barding rules (a subset of the armor rules) limit the type of barding a flying mount (a subset of flying creatures) can wear.
People will try to draw a line from these pair of subsets to through the armor rules to another subset of rules that states encumbrance counts as armor.

3.5 absolutely DID have rules regarding encumbrance and fliers that stated they could not fly with medium or heavy encumbrance. PF does not. PF either intentionally or accidentally did not include them. I am guessing it was intentional since it really limits fliers unnecessarily. Who wants that epic encounter where the GM describes a great flying creature picking up something to be stopped by 'uhhh, that is over the creatures encumbrance limit by 1lb! You cannot do that.'

Honestly, it doesn't make sense that fliers cannot pick up something and be medium or heavily encumbered. It barely makes sense that they cannot fly in medium or heavy armor.

- Gauss

[Action Bob]

Personally my campaign uses these rules as there are not sufficient rules dictated in the book we gathered all the relevant information and extrapolated the best reference document we could, this is an excerpt of that document THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL but it could work for you.

Relevent Referance pages:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/skills/fly.html#fly
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/fly.html#fog-cloud
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/additionalRules.html#table- 7-4-carrying-capacity
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/ride
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/animals-animal -gear

Barding:

Flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding. (Due to loss of range of motion and balance during aerobatic maneuvers)

Barding for a flying mount can only cover the head, neck, chest, body, legs and rigid components of the wing when "Barding Stitches" are used, all str and dex check penalties apply.

Removing and fitting barding takes five times as long as the figures given on Table: Donning Armor.

A barded animal CANNOT BE USED TO CARRY ANY LOAD other than a rider and normal saddlebags.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/animals-animal -gear

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––
"Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal

creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows:

Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on

its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.

(Treating creatures with two wings as a biped)
Animal: Can carry up to:
An eagle (small animal, str 10) [3/4*100=75] lbs in flight.
A tame Roc (medium / large, str 12 or 20) [1*130=130 or 2*400=800] lbs in flight.
A wild Roc (gargantuan animal, str 28) [8*1200=9600] lbs in flight.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the

creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine

×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12,

Colossal ×24."
(Treat creatures with four wings as a quadroped)
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––
Therefore;Flying under load:

Light:
No reduction
No minus

Medium:
flight speed reduced
(if 80 is now 55)
-3 to fight check penalty

Heavy: (glide only)
flight speed reduced
-6 flight check penalty

[Murdock Mudeater]

Basic load penalties:

Light:
Nothing

Medium:
Max dex +3
-3 check penalty

Heavy Load:
Max dex +1
-6 check penalty

Check penalty due to loads stacks with check penalties from armor. So while flight is possible in armor, the check penalty would become overbearing, rather quickly. The max dex is also an issue, as fly is a dex based skill. Heavy loads also affect speeds, as does armor. Though tower shields are the worst option for flyers...(-10 check penalty)

There are also potential penalties for wind speed, size, flying maneuverability type, and additional checks caused almost constantly in combat while flying. Some pretty nasty penalties for failing fly checks, too.

Personally, I'd keep my feet on the ground, provided it's an option. Just so much safer.

[The Black Bard]

Personally, as far as the armor = encumbrance rule, I've never considered movement modes to be abilities, at least as far as the game term means. Bonuses to movement modes might be.

Examples:

Fly Spell Like Ability: Ability
Fly Speed: Movement Mode
Barbarian Fast Movement: Ability that modified a movement speed (and is explicitly negated by heavy armor/heavy load).
Monk AC bonus: Ability

If something had a fly speed that came with a provisional statement of "when not carrying a medium or heavy load, this creature can fly at a speed of 30" then that would obviously be affected by the armor = encumbrance rule.

That said, I agree that a small eagle can't carry off 75 pounds of stuff, in the real world, aerodynamics gives them about 5 pounds of lifting power. Now, if you wanted to say: "Lamashtu's influence over beasts allows birds of prey to snatch up children and fly off with them" then I'm fine with it, justified by setting.

Now, the encumbrance rules break at both ends of the spectrum as well. Smaller creatures lift insane amounts, and bigger creatures are crushed to the ground by proportionally trivial loads. But the image of a collosal dragon snatching a sailing ship out of the water is awesome, and if the difference between that happening (and the amazing fight sequence from the deck of said boat... which I have run before) is the difference between light and heavy load... well, thats an easy choice to make.

[Synikal]

For what it is worth the feat Angel Wings for Aasimar says you can fly at a reduced speed with a medium and heavy load and while wearing medium and heavy armor.

[DragonLordAcar]

For what it's worth, I don't think those that fly by magic (oni or by wizards) adhere to this rule at all. I mean, a wizard quite literally did it (watch HelloFutureMe for this reference to be funny).

[Lady Asharah]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

There are also potential penalties for wind speed, size, flying maneuverability type, and additional checks caused almost constantly in combat while flying. Some pretty nasty penalties for failing fly checks, too.

Personally, I'd keep my feet on the ground, provided it's an option. Just so much safer.

If you have a fly speed, there are not nearly as many fly checks to take as you would imagine.

There's a lot of *potential* for a check, but in reality you don't do those often. Mostly because the DCs are so low that 90% of flying creatures will automatically pass them.