Very sad


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Link.

Shadow Lodge

How in the world do you justify shooting a 7 year old!?

Guess what new clothing is in the children's department?

Bullet-proof vests.
I have so much faith in law enforcement now, I think I'll go out and but four. One for each of my neices.


It's very tragic, only comforting thought might be that it could have been a freak accident. Still a tragic accident.
But what's even worse, to me at least, is how one of the commenters uses the shooting to rile people up with racist comments and encouraging people to arm themselves because this is apparently *WAR* (on African-Americans I can only assume)... Yeah, more weapons in the hands of people is going to prevent this thing from happening again... you f+$&ing idiot!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
How in the world do you justify shooting a 7 year old!?

It sounds to me like an accident which occurred during an altercation during a legal house search. I would hesitate to leap to conclusions that anyone is trying to "justify" it. As the father of four, I deplore the death of any child but I would be slow to cast blame one way or the other until the facts come out. If you find out, as a fact, that the police, to show how much they meant business coldbloodedly shot the girl, then get angry. But if it turns out that the woman in question was trying to wrestle the gun from the police and it went off, what are you going to do when you have already blamed the wrong party. Keep in mind as well that they were searching for a murder suspect, possibly armed and dangerous - it was only natural for the police to have guns in such a situation.

It was a bad situation. It is now a tragic situation. But it is not necessarily the fault of the police that either is true.


A horribly tragic accident. My sympahties to the family and to the officer.
Acoording to the article it speculated, because of the ongoing investigation,that the mother and the officer were in phisical conflict and the shooting was entirly accidental.


police brutality


The Death of Aiyana Jones: 'Showtime Syndrome' Claims a Child


Reason

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids:An Epidemic of "Isolated Incidents"


Fieger's civil action best investigative tool in death of Aiyana Jones


Some one is lying

Liberty's Edge

From what I've gathered, there are only two events that have been agreed upon by both sides--that a flash-bang was used, and that a shot was fired that killed a 7 yo girl.

So far I have seen that the suspect was actually in the house and that he was in a neighboring apartment/building.

That the shot was fired during an altercation and that the shot was fired before entry into the home.

Too many conflicting accounts to pass judgment yet IMO.

What i do know is that, even if the shot was fired during an altercation, I can't say I would have reacted differently if a flash-bang was tossed into my home unannounced (they should really declare themselves as police BEFORE they use a means to disorient the inhabitants). The cops are lucky they didn't get shot.

BLUF: An innocent girl is dead because the cops went off half-cocked because they were showing off for a reality show. Most assuradely, heads will roll in some form or fashion...whether it be the cop who fired the shot being legally charged or street justice if he isn't. All I know is that if he is tried and convicted he will spend his entire sentance in solitary if the prison system wants him to be alive at the end of his stint.


Xpltvdeleted wrote:

From what I've gathered, there are only two events that have been agreed upon by both sides--that a flash-bang was used, and that a shot was fired that killed a 7 yo girl.

So far I have seen that the suspect was actually in the house and that he was in a neighboring apartment/building.

That the shot was fired during an altercation and that the shot was fired before entry into the home.

Too many conflicting accounts to pass judgment yet IMO.

What i do know is that, even if the shot was fired during an altercation, I can't say I would have reacted differently if a flash-bang was tossed into my home unannounced (they should really declare themselves as police BEFORE they use a means to disorient the inhabitants). The cops are lucky they didn't get shot.

BLUF: An innocent girl is dead because the cops went off half-cocked because they were showing off for a reality show. Most assuradely, heads will roll in some form or fashion...whether it be the cop who fired the shot being legally charged or street justice if he isn't. All I know is that if he is tried and convicted he will spend his entire sentance in solitary if the prison system wants him to be alive at the end of his stint.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for these guys to be held accountable. Heck they might even get promoted. This kind of thing is pretty common sadly.


Just another day at the office for Detroit's SRT


National Police Misconduct NewsFeed Daily Recap 05-07-10

Grand Lodge

Bitter Thorn, not to be snarky or confrontaional (because that is really NOT the intent of my question), but do you have a personal axe to grind with police? There are millions of police officers across the country. So it is reasonable to find that more than a few are "Badge Heavy" and abuse their power (sometimes in a most deplorable way)...

I mean, MOST LEOs are reasonable people that are just doing a job same as you and me, and find the misconduct by their peers just as reprehensible as you and I...

Just curious as to the reason for all the negative links...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-


Digitalelf wrote:

Bitter Thorn, not to be snarky or confrontaional (because that is really NOT the intent of my question), but do you have a personal axe to grind with police? There are millions of police officers across the country. So it is reasonable to find that more than a few are "Badge Heavy" and abuse their power (sometimes in a most deplorable way)...

I mean, MOST LEOs are reasonable people that are just doing a job same as you and me, and find the misconduct by their peers just as reprehensible as you and I...

Just curious as to the reason for all the negative links...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

I don't have much use for law enforcement even though I still have few friends who are still in it, but I wouldn't say I have a personal axe to grind. Although they have seriously screwed some of my friends and family.

I'm just reminding folks how frequently these things happen. Most of the time it doesn't happen to a beautiful little girl, so it doesn't get much media attention.

The government and the police engage in a great deal of misconduct on a regular basis. It just receives very little attention. Most folks just seem to accept government malfeasance as the way things are.


Cop in Aiyana shooting helped needy kids, sued for earlier raid


This has a little more detail, but note the source.

Michigan Citizen article


Digitalelf wrote:

Bitter Thorn, not to be snarky or confrontaional (because that is really NOT the intent of my question), but do you have a personal axe to grind with police? There are millions of police officers across the country. So it is reasonable to find that more than a few are "Badge Heavy" and abuse their power (sometimes in a most deplorable way)...

I mean, MOST LEOs are reasonable people that are just doing a job same as you and me, and find the misconduct by their peers just as reprehensible as you and I...

I can't speak for BT, but I think most people are aware of at least one person who abuses their workplace power/authority. That's just human.

What I'm fed up with is that Thin Line that protects those abusers from the appropriate legal repercussions. I always hear about cops, soldiers, doctors, politicians, etc. who say they find such misconduct reprehensible, but they all too often seem to be rather scarce when it comes time to step forward and speak out.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Digitalelf wrote:

Bitter Thorn, not to be snarky or confrontaional (because that is really NOT the intent of my question), but do you have a personal axe to grind with police? There are millions of police officers across the country. So it is reasonable to find that more than a few are "Badge Heavy" and abuse their power (sometimes in a most deplorable way)...

I mean, MOST LEOs are reasonable people that are just doing a job same as you and me, and find the misconduct by their peers just as reprehensible as you and I...

I can't speak for BT, but I think most people are aware of at least one person who abuses their workplace power/authority. That's just human.

What I'm fed up with is that Thin Line that protects those abusers from the appropriate legal repercussions. I always hear about cops, soldiers, doctors, politicians, etc. who say they find such misconduct reprehensible, but they all too often seem to be rather scarce when it comes time to step forward and speak out.

I think I've been clear that I'm not saying all cops are bad.

I do have problems with the idea that it has become common for law enforcement to show up with teams of men in black masks and machine guns in armored vehicles in the wee hours of the morning and to shoot grenades through windows and kill dogs. There are with out a doubt times when these tactics are entirely correct, but there are lots of examples of these para military raids going very wrong.

There are lots of variables that play into this. Cops are encouraged to play up the drama for camera crews. Cash strapped cities like Detroit pay a lot of tax dollars to train, equip and maintain their SWAT teams, and they don't want them to be "underutilized". The escalating war on drugs is escalating the levels of violence. Departments and jurisdictions want the revenue from drug and other seizures.

They have an extremely difficult job, and when they make mistakes innocent people can die.

I don't have enough information about the specifics of this raid to criticize most elements of it. Trying to execute a warrant for a man who allegedly gunned down a teenager in cold blood for "looking at him wrong" is clearly high risk, but they knew there were multiple small children in the duplex from their surveillance the day of the raid.

Maybe there were options for isolating the suspect from the civilians in the area besides this.

Very often when situations like this are examined in hind sight we learn that there were much better ways to manage the risks than a midnight tactical assault.

I just don't think we should ever get to the point where things like this are just acceptable collateral damage in the war on crime.


Interesting article about about recent trends.

There is a video you can click on in this article.

I would caution you DO NOT START THE VIDEO WITH KIDS AROUND or at work!

Law Enforcement: More Raids Gone Bad, Making May a Bad Month for SWAT


This is an interesting editorial. I don't think he has all of his facts right, but I think it's thought provoking.

One City Where Citizens Will Not Assist


State Police comb house where Aiyana was killed


Bitter Thorn wrote:

Interesting article about about recent trends.

There is a video you can click on in this article.

I would caution you DO NOT START THE VIDEO WITH KIDS AROUND or at work!

Law Enforcement: More Raids Gone Bad, Making May a Bad Month for SWAT

They shot the dogs?!! Motherf*****s. I really didn't need to see that.. now I'm sad and pissed off.

/and it was the wrong house, people are important too, etc.
//poor dogs.. :(


Seabyrn wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:

Interesting article about about recent trends.

There is a video you can click on in this article.

I would caution you DO NOT START THE VIDEO WITH KIDS AROUND or at work!

Law Enforcement: More Raids Gone Bad, Making May a Bad Month for SWAT

They shot the dogs?!! Motherf*****s. I really didn't need to see that.. now I'm sad and pissed off.

/and it was the wrong house, people are important too, etc.
//poor dogs.. :(

Unfortunately this is becoming more and more common. The trend kind of stems from pits and rotties and such being used by dealers and the like to impede raids and discourage rivals, but i don't how much threat a couple of Corgies can be to a freaking SWAT team. I also don't see the point to gunning down dogs in front of the kids. I'm sure those kids are likely to have issues with cops. That's sad for community relations to say the least.

/It was the innocent old lady who had a heart attack that was the wrong house.

In this instance, "In that raid, a videotape of which went viral on YouTube, a SWAT team executing a marijuana search warrant burst into a family home and shot two dogs, killing one, before ushering the suspect's terrified wife and young daughter out of the home. All police came up with was a tiny amount of pot and a pipe."

EDIT: I didn't mean to ambush you. I assumed the text of the article would give one a heads up.


A 7-year old murdered by a police officer, who shot her through a porch window?

:blink in disbelief:

Thank God there were cameras. If the parents have a good attorney, they have a chance at justice; for whatever it might still be worth to somebody who lost a child.

One can only hope that this will open a national dialogue on the appropriate level of power and discretion to be given to law enforcement officers.


another_mage wrote:

A 7-year old murdered by a police officer, who shot her through a porch window?

:blink in disbelief:

Thank God there were cameras. If the parents have a good attorney, they have a chance at justice; for whatever it might still be worth to somebody who lost a child.

One can only hope that this will open a national dialogue on the appropriate level of power and discretion to be given to law enforcement officers.

I'm not sure I would use the word murdered just yet. The family's lawyer asserts that she was shot from outside as opposed to an AD (accidental discharge) after contact with the grandmother (after the SRT set the girl on fire with a flash bang).

There is still a huge amount of information that has not been released yet.

Some of my questions include:

Where was she shot from?

How many times was she shot?

What was she shot with? Did the officer have a side arm and shield?

Was there contact with an occupant that contributed to the AD?

Did the occupants comply with the officers commands or were they trying to extinguish the little girl?

Were they using night vision or visible light?

Was the warrant valid for the whole duplex or only one unit?

Could the girl have been saved if EMTs had been on site when the raid was initiated? (Some Colorado SWAT teams now incorporate dedicated EMTs on the teams.)

Why was a midnight raid chosen over a less direct method when the police knew that there were multiple children at the duplex?

What do the video tapes show?

Why was a flash bang only fired through the one ground floor window?


This is why cops need cameras on them...video tells a better story than the cops...not hand-held, helmet cam or glasses cam or equivalent. Every cop should have them...except undercovers of course...

You're out on your 12 hour shift, you have a record of everything that transpired...yes, even taking a leak...

Would make corruption a lot harder


Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:

This is why cops need cameras on them...video tells a better story than the cops...not hand-held, helmet cam or glasses cam or equivalent. Every cop should have them...except undercovers of course...

You're out on your 12 hour shift, you have a record of everything that transpired...yes, even taking a leak...

Would make corruption a lot harder

It's an interesting idea.

One of my frustrations with this tragedy is that this was filmed and there is no substantive information forth coming. I get that the state police need to conduct a thorough review, but I get the sense that it works in DPD's favor to drag this out so the outrage gets left behind the news cycle. I wonder if they want to drag this out so some folks lose interest. I'd be surprised if any of this ever sees a courtroom.


Has anyone seen any new information on this?

Liberty's Edge

Bitter Thorn wrote:
Has anyone seen any new information on this?

Nope, it has dropped out of the news cycle to be forever forgotten by the American people...just like the Ft. Hood shooter.

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Xpltvdeleted wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Has anyone seen any new information on this?
Nope, it has dropped out of the news cycle to be forever forgotten by the American people...just like the Ft. Hood shooter.

...and tons of other stories after they've lost the attention of the media.

The Exchange

Adam Daigle wrote:
Xpltvdeleted wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Has anyone seen any new information on this?
Nope, it has dropped out of the news cycle to be forever forgotten by the American people...just like the Ft. Hood shooter.
...and tons of other stories after they've lost the attention of the media.

Oh I am sure they will get brought back at some point to milk them for all they are worth.

Grand Lodge

Bitter Thorn wrote:
but there are lots of examples of these para military raids going very wrong.

para military law enforcement... THAT is what I find wrong.

Great for soldiers in the war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan, but I do not feel it is appropriate for the government to wage war on its own citizens.

I have several family and friends in law enforcement... their stories have made me fear the police. I know there are some good cops out there, but you just never know if you will be lucky enough to be stopped by one. If I see red and blue lights I start praying (fortunately I make sure to NOT give them a reason to pull me over).


Fieger: New autopsy suggests cover-up, shows Aiyana shot in head

Liberty's Edge

This just plain sickens me...there's no other way to describe it. With the release of the new autopsy results, it seems obvious to me that there is a blatant cover up. The sad fact is, things like this happen all to often and much too disproportionately to the black population. Look at the guy in NYC awhile back that was shot ~90 times (IIRC) when he grabbed his wallet after being asked for ID (cops got off scot free as I recall). I firmly believe that this story would have stayed on top of the news longer had it been a little white girl instead...just look at Natlie Holloway--her disappearance was covered for MONTHS after it was apparent she was dead and this little girl, shot by a glory-hound cop, only warrants a couple days and a minor story on a local news outlet's page? It's disgusting.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I grew up in Dearborn - three houses down the block and across the street was Detroit - near the projects. I remember as a little girl watching the Dearborn cops hanging out at the corner, on their side of the border, waiting, just waiting for one of those gold trimmed Cadilacs driving down the road to cross the city line into their jurisdiction. Even as an elementary student I knew it was because those dealers had bought off the Detroit cops, and the Dearborn cops were just itching to arrest them.

There're many reasons the population of Detroit is shrinking rapidly.

Sovereign Court

You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)


lastknightleft wrote:
You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)

Thanks for the feed back!

There are times when SWAT teams are definitely needed, but they are clearly overused IMO. These teams are very costly to train and equip, so there is financial pressure to put them to as much use as possible; there is also a vicious circle in many departments where the heavy tac teams "earn their budget" with drug seizure revenue, and there is the whole playing to the cameras/news media set of problems like here and Waco.

I think when you have a hammer a lot of problems start looking like nails.


lastknightleft wrote:
You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)

I don't normally have a lot positive to say about BT's politics, but he's right on the ball about this.

Sovereign Court

Samnell wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)
I don't normally have a lot positive to say about BT's politics, but he's right on the ball about this.

agreed, There just was absolutely no justification for this. Even assuming that there had been a wrestle with the woman inside the door, maybe it's because you threw a grenade into her house and kicked in her fight or flight reflex and she was in "protect my grandchild" mode. In the heat of the moment just yelling "POLICE" doesn't give you the right to do these things. In my opinion this is a clear cut case of negligent homicide by the police even if it turns out that the gun did go off in a wrestling match. Because there was absolutely no just cause for that situation to begin with.


Bitter Thorn wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)

Thanks for the feed back!

There are times when SWAT teams are definitely needed, but they are clearly overused IMO. These teams are very costly to train and equip, so there is financial pressure to put them to as much use as possible; there is also a vicious circle in many departments where the heavy tac teams "earn their budget" with drug seizure revenue, and there is the whole playing to the cameras/news media set of problems like here and Waco.

I think when you have a hammer a lot of problems start looking like nails.

+1. Also, I just read this very famous analogy in a Mechwarrior novel I was thumbing through over the weekend.

I don't agree with BT on all fronts with respect to his politics- minarchy sounds a lot like neo-feudalism on a few fronts, at least from what I remember of it- but he's right here. SWAT teams are a necessity, but their exorbitant cost leads to a lot of over/misuse.

Sovereign Court

Freehold DM wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
You want to hear something positive, BT you've helped set my opinion against paramilitary tactics. So if nothing else one person at a time, this is changing peoples opinions (before i never had an opinion, now I am firmly against in any instance other than hostage situations etc.)

Thanks for the feed back!

There are times when SWAT teams are definitely needed, but they are clearly overused IMO. These teams are very costly to train and equip, so there is financial pressure to put them to as much use as possible; there is also a vicious circle in many departments where the heavy tac teams "earn their budget" with drug seizure revenue, and there is the whole playing to the cameras/news media set of problems like here and Waco.

I think when you have a hammer a lot of problems start looking like nails.

+1. Also, I just read this very famous analogy in a Mechwarrior novel I was thumbing through over the weekend.

I don't agree with BT on all fronts with respect to his politics- minarchy sounds a lot like neo-feudalism on a few fronts, at least from what I remember of it- but he's right here. SWAT teams are a necessity, but their exorbitant cost leads to a lot of over/misuse.

Heh me neither, I think BT and I are probably closer in view than you guys as I'm a libertarian, but I'm not 100% free market, and I'm not 100% government shouldn't do x kinda guy, I'm more of a centrist libertarian. However, I do think there are times when SWAT is absolutely necessary, but busting into a grow house that's actually a family dwelling etc. are not those situations. Hell even here where they were legitimately after a violent criminal, they could have used surveillance or simply surrounded the house, and then knocked on the door and identified themselves. If a hostage situation had then broken out and swat tried to save people and this accidentally happened, then in that instance, they would have had the benefit of the doubt.

But this, this was abuse of power pure and simple.


In the fatal shooting case, what each side says

Has anyone read about any findings beyond the autopsy?

It looks like they succeeded in dragging this out long enough for the media to lose interest thanks in part to the Gulf; very sad indeed.


Bitter Thorn wrote:

In the fatal shooting case, what each side says

Has anyone read about any findings beyond the autopsy?

It looks like they succeeded in dragging this out long enough for the media to lose interest thanks in part to the Gulf; very sad indeed.

If what's said here is true, it's not sad, but disgusting.

Any word on what's happened to this officer's career?

Sovereign Court

Bitter Thorn wrote:

In the fatal shooting case, what each side says

Has anyone read about any findings beyond the autopsy?

It looks like they succeeded in dragging this out long enough for the media to lose interest thanks in part to the Gulf; very sad indeed.

Well not to say that it should drop off the radar, it shouldn't, but in all fairness the stuff in the gulf is a legitimate disaster and DOES require more pressingly urgent reporting, so it should be eclipsed by what happened in the Gulf.

Now if new evidence develops (none has that I'm aware of) then this should come back to attention when someone goes on trial, the actual suit has it's day in court, etc. But for right now I don't think it's unfair to say, we've covered this and said all there is to say for now, let's instead report on the massive environmental disaster that's still underway.


lastknightleft wrote:

Heh me neither, I think BT and I are probably closer in view than you guys as I'm a libertarian, but I'm not 100% free market, and I'm not 100% government shouldn't do x kinda guy, I'm more of a centrist libertarian. However, I do think there are times when SWAT is absolutely necessary, but busting into a grow house that's actually a family dwelling etc. are not those situations. Hell even here where they were legitimately after a violent criminal, they could have used surveillance or simply surrounded the house, and then knocked on the door and identified themselves. If a hostage situation had then broken out and swat tried to save people and this accidentally happened, then in that instance, they would have had the benefit of the doubt.

But this, this was abuse of power pure and simple.

Detroit law enforcement has quite a history of these abuses costing the tax payers tens of millions of dollars.

Detroit police misdeeds lead to $19.1M in payouts to settle cases over 3 years


lastknightleft wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:

In the fatal shooting case, what each side says

Has anyone read about any findings beyond the autopsy?

It looks like they succeeded in dragging this out long enough for the media to lose interest thanks in part to the Gulf; very sad indeed.

Well not to say that it should drop off the radar, it shouldn't, but in all fairness the stuff in the gulf is a legitimate disaster and DOES require more pressingly urgent reporting, so it should be eclipsed by what happened in the Gulf.

Now if new evidence develops (none has that I'm aware of) then this should come back to attention when someone goes on trial, the actual suit has it's day in court, etc. But for right now I don't think it's unfair to say, we've covered this and said all there is to say for now, let's instead report on the massive environmental disaster that's still underway.

I certainly agree that the biggest environmental disaster in US history merits heavy coverage, but with the sheer volume of news output it doesn't have to be one or the other.

I strongly suspect that delay is a deliberate PR tactic by Detroit and Michigan to let the outrage abate.

They have video for crying out loud, so some of the basic questions should have been answered already. They aren't reconstructing a space shuttle disaster here; they should be able to disclose the states findings in weeks not months.

I really think they are banking on the media and public's short attention span.


Lessons from the Death of Aiyana Stanley-Jones


Tension escalates in Detroit.

Community enraged at 2nd police shooting. Trooper shot 20-year-old just blocks from Aiyana Jones’ home.

This shooting was almost certainly justified, but law enforcement in this area has used up any good will it had left.

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