
josh hill 935 |
hi guys. how much money would it take to rebuild a runined castle? i was thinking of giving my pc's a ruined castle as the reward for their first quest. it will be somewhere to rest inbetween quests and store treasure. maybe a safe haven if they get in trouble or even somewhere to run a business from it for some extra revenue. i think the possibilities could be quite good but how much would it take to rebuild? there is a nearby village so they could pay for labour. its also a really small castle.

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in 3.5 i believe a castle cost 1 million gp. now the more thrashed it is, the less it costs. there was also a feat from stronghold builders guide that gives you $ specifically toward building a lair and 1/2 off all future costs
if the entire front of the castle need rebuilding, knock some gp off the total wealth. 2 crumbling towers? theres some more gp off. The invaders torched the cathedral? more gp off, ect

trednis |
Take a look at p 101 of the 3.5 DMG for some building price starting points. From what you describe I would classify it as a "keep" with some outbuildings. New is 150k. I would say about 30-60k to repair and another 10k for goods and staff. There is also a Stronghold Builder's Guild that gives prices for more exotic options.

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Well isn't it wonderful that Kingmaker gives us all the information that we need for this
Spoiler for people playing whose GMs haven't let them see the building rules
A castle costs 54 BP to build (AP 32 pg 59)
So half of 54BP needed is 27BP
and if you don't have any BP (which presumably you don't) you can get 1 BP by depositing 4000 gold worth of funds to go towards buying the necessary supplies. (AP 32 pg 64)
Therefore 27 X 4000 = 108,000 gold to repair the castle using PF instead of 3.5

josh hill 935 |
wow bloody expensive then. the idea was that it was centuries old made by an old fallen empire. it is part of the fiefdom of a minor noble but has been taken over by by goblins. its in ruins as it has been abandoned for decades and villages have used it for building materials. it became infested by goblins that use it as a hideout for attacking him / his village so he is happy to give i away to any adventurers that 'clear it out'.
considering the price i will make it just one tower (albeit quite large. that was the style the old empire had. perfectly circular castles) with say 3 stories and little actual fortification apart from arrow slits in the walls.
i will have a look at the stronghold builders guide if i can get my hands on it. as for giving it a revamp, it isnt like they will be attacked by an army. it is just somewhere reasonably easy to defend that they can hide in. maybe if they have enough money they could expand it. as for staff it wont need staffing while it is being built and when it i built i would dare say peasants would be happy for a free house to stay in return they look after it.

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I liked some of the ideas presented in the first installment of the Worm's Food articles to support the Age of Worms campaign (Dragon 333). It involved refurbishing an old mine office to use as a base. Since the characters are not really building a tip top "modern" castle, maybe that article will give some ideas for using character efforts and skills to make some repairs and get it serviceable. After all, once they clear out the goblins, they can make it servicable. It doen't need to be market ready, just livable.

Rezdave |
hi guys. how much money would it take to rebuild a runined castle? i was thinking of giving my pc's a ruined castle as the reward for their first quest.
If this is their "first quest" then they won't have the money to fully repair it for a long time. Thus, I wouldn't really worry about it.
Frankly, I'd break it down in to stages. Whenever they have a little extra wealth or you need to syphon some money off of them, then you can wing the costs stage-by-stage. Hand-wave it based upon "the condition of that particular section".
For example, looking over the ruins they determine that the main Keep is too badly damaged to affordably repair for now, but there is a wall-tower that's in decent shape, so in the short term they hang some tarps and have a secure shelter. You tell them that it's 3-stories but needs new floors installed for 20gp/floor, plus another 20gp to repair a few holes in the roof. Fortunately for them, the rafters are in good shape.
As they progress in level, they'll want to repair the main keep, probably starting with the lowest level (mostly cleaning and a temporary roof) which will also be the least expensive, and then build up level-by-level over time. The main-keep may serve as only their "Great Hall", defensive bastion and main armory/treasury for some time to come, while their actual living quarters remain in the initially-refurbished guard-tower until enough upper levels of the Keep have been refurbished that they can relocate.
Once the lower level(s) of the Keep is secured, they might be interested in some temporary or make-shift walls or barricades connecting the living tower to the keep, giving them a small courtyard and making the over-all structure more defensible. Perhaps the old castle had some interior divisions, a few baileys and such, allowing them to restore a single bailey into an enclosed and secure stockade, anchored at one end by the Wall/Living-Tower and the other by the under-repair Main Keep. While the early defensive barricades might be little more than split-rail fencing, the rebuilding of the bailey and curtain walls can be done in stages ... half-wall enclosures followed by full-height walls that are later topped with battlements, crenelations and such.
Next they'll probably want a couple out-buildings. Guard-towers can be quickly refurbished and used as stables until proper ones can be constructed. As they rise in level and wealth they'll be able to hire full-time craftsmen who will need dormitories, as well as men-at-arms (and barracks for them) to guard the site while they're away adventuring.
Once a couple baileys are repaired it will be time to either complete the main keep, or else close off the old curtain-wall. Even if all the inner baileys aren't finished, they can still close the entire curtain wall and use the larger, open courtyards for housing their growing staff of hirelings and additional support staff. After all, the workers will need food, and it's much cheaper to bring in farmers to work the surrounding fields (let them keep 50% of their produce and tax them the rest as "rent"), plus shepherds, chicken farmers and so forth. They'll need a smithy on-site plus a mill and bakery nearby ... probably outside the curtain wall by now amongst the growing number of out-buildings ... and additional crafts-folk such as weavers and tailors and cobblers and such will be needed, but it's probably better for the PCs to only pay their labor force and let the laborers spend wages on these folk than to hire them directly as staff.
Finally, the defensive structures of the castle will be completed and a few finishing touches, decorations and such can be added. By this time the party will probably be 10th-15th level (or more, if you desire) and perhaps decades will have passed in-game. A small but permanent community will have grown up around the now-finished castle, with children being born, raised, married and having families of their own during the many years of construction. Most likely the PCs have taken mates and raised families as well. Suddenly, the PCs realize they are no longer the mere title-holders of a ruined castle, but the masters of a fortress, lords of a modest but stable village and protectors of a community. They will be the major land-lords of the region and from tax/rent be able to support their castle maintenance and staffing costs. They might also have brought in others to live in their community ... a Loremaster to manage a local library and aid them in their adventure-related research, a Cleric of the same order as the party's Paladin to serve as parish priest, a mid-level Wizard to assist the research and item-crafting of the party Wizard as well as oversee the staff of apprentices while the master is away. Perhaps the Rogue married the son of the King's former Minister of Foreign Relations and her father-in-law has since decided to retire to a small, outlying estate in their district (now Barony) and bring his own mini-court of foreign ambassadors, minor nobles and still-considerable political influence with him.
Regardless, all this will take time. Since you've already said this is a reward for their "first quest" they won't be nearly able to afford fixing up the place any time soon. I suggest you come up with some rough numbers, but to a certain degree also just "wing-it" as you see the in-game wealth levels fluctuate.
Really, it depends upon how much detail with which the Players wish to involve themselves. Some might want to negotiate deals with peasants and nearby goblinoid tribes and grow their community in great detail, while others just want to pay a flat fee and have a castle.
Give them time to figure out their own level of interest and involvement, then go with the flow.
FWIW,
Rez
P.S. I started writing this before your follow-up post expressing your "sticker shock" at the cost, but completed it after. I think if you follow an out-line as I've laid down you can provide them with an immediate "ruined castle" that in the short-term is simply a functional tower and a pile of stone, but over time and levels can grow into a long-term and completely refurbished fortress. For imagery of the ruins, the Osgiliath sequences for LotR might work well.

Mynameisjake |

wow bloody expensive then.
One thing that you might consider is not forcing the PCs to pay for it out of their "personal" wealth. The WBL guidelines are there to guide you in regards to how powerful a character should be during encounters, not necessarily in their "total" wealth. After all, a character who owns a keep and a +1 sword, really isn't any more powerful than a character who just has a +1 sword. There are two ways that I've used to deal with the issue.
First, you simply separate wealth into "character" and "other". Character wealth is limited to what the PC carries along with him and is limited to what the WBL Guidelines dictate. Any wealth in excess of that can be spend on anything else, just not on magic items and such for the characters. Want to buy a tavern? Okay. Want to add spells to your grimoire? Nope, sorry. This approach requires a certain level of maturity on behalf of your players, however. Some players simply will not be happy knowing that they have an extra hundred thousand in gold pieces that they can't spend on a nifty new weapon. Others will understand the concept of game balance and will have a lot of fun figuring out non-combat uses for additional wealth. Like rebuilding a keep.
Alternately, you can stick to the WBL but offer a "Non-Combat multiplier" for money spent of things like keeps. If the PC is willing to forego that +1 sword (2K gp) and invest that money in a keep, then allow him or her to get 20K worth of work done. That way a character who is willing and able to invest in a keep isn't all that far behind one who isn't.
Hope this helps.

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I'd recommend looking at the Kingmaker AP particularly: "Rivers Run Red". It has excellent kingdom building rules.
Essentially the local lord should give them a few BP (maybe 5-6) which they can spend on a tower, etc. As they continue questing in the region keep rewarding them with BP which they can use to upgrade the village they are in.
Seriously it's good stuff.
Otherwise, handwaving is a good method. I did as such when my PCs decided they wanted to take over a small district of the city when they ousted a crime-lord. In general about 50 gp x Character Level per repair is about fair at early levels. Simply make it tiered:
Tier 1 (50 gp per level)- Walls (per side, per level), Tower (per Level), Well.
(50 gp x level - So the first floor of a tower is 50 gp. The second is 100 gp, the third is 150 gp (a 3 level tower would then cost 300 gp in labour and materials).
Tier 2 - Keep (50 pp x level).
So a 1 level keep would cost 50 pp (or 500 pp in labour and materials), adding a second level to the keep would cost about 100 pp (for a total cost of 150 pp (or 1,500 gp)).
This should give your players incentive to keep adventuring for that ph4t l00t, and you can rest a little easier if you decide to dole out extra treasure if you're sure your players are likely to spend surplus cash in their keep.

Firest |

I'd recommend looking at the Kingmaker AP particularly: "Rivers Run Red". It has excellent kingdom building rules.
Essentially the local lord should give them a few BP (maybe 5-6) which they can spend on a tower, etc. As they continue questing in the region keep rewarding them with BP which they can use to upgrade the village they are in.
Seriously it's good stuff.
Or if the local Lord isn't interested perhaps someone could float them a loan.
Merchants trying to secure a trade route, a mining company protecting a mine, whatever fits into your campaign.
Another thing to consider is the level of ruin in your ruins. If we're talking about an old human fortification left moldering for a century after the last Orc invasion then repairs could be quite pricey. But if it's an old Elvish/Dwarven/Runelord/Atlantian site, from when things were built to last, then repairs could be as simple as clearing away the brush and adding an new roof.

Rezdave |
separate wealth into "character" and "other".
SNIP
This approach requires a certain level of maturity on behalf of your players, however. Some players simply will not be happy knowing that they have an extra hundred thousand in gold pieces that they can't spend on a nifty new weapon.
Best thing to do is take money out of the equation.
Merchants trying to secure a trade route, a mining company protecting a mine, whatever fits into your campaign.
Have much of the work done on a barter system.
Bandits have been raiding several villages and the PCs save the people, but they have no money for a reward. Instead, they volunteer labor, supplies and provisions for a year.
A merchant spends all his wealth to ransom his kidnapped heir, but the returning caravan is attacked by a monster. The party rescues the merchant scion, but the goods are destroyed and papa is left destitute. Fortunately, he still has connections that he is more than willing to share with the PCs and get them supplies far below retail cost.
Through their merchant benefactor they make contact with the local guild that needs a trade-route through the woods near their castle secured. If the party opens the road and keeps it clear of monsters the guild will refurbish one of the castle's towers for free and post a garrison of men-at-arms therein (of course, the tower will also serve as the local guild chapter-house and trading post, secure within the castle walls and possessing a local monopoly in the PCs' domain).
Solutions and deals like these will take wealth and PC money out of the equation. That way, no one has to make a choice between buying a magic weapon or crenellating the south wall.
Additionally, it has the benefit of allowing you to control the pace of the refurbishment by when you present the PCs with such opportunities. This keeps them from sinking every last copper into fortifying themselves and then suddenly having an unassailable fortress from which to overthrow the king at 3rd level.
an old human fortification left moldering for a century after the last Orc invasion then repairs could be quite pricey. But if it's an old Elvish/Dwarven/Runelord/Atlantian site, from when things were built to last, then repairs could be as simple as clearing away the brush and adding an new roof
Repairing the "moldering human fort" could be extensive but cheap. OTOH, even minor repairs to ancient elvish or dwarven ruins would require specialized materials and expensive master craftsmen.
Maybe newer means better condition. Who knows. It's all up to you, really.
FWIW,
Rez

Elghinn Lightbringer |

++ to Rezdave's commments. Rules are great, but the point is you are wanting to have fun with whole bequeathing of a ruined castle. A+ to that idea, its outside the box and can make for some great story later on, such as it becoming beseiged later on once its up and functional or something like that. Or a lost decendant from the old empire's ancient royal line comes to reclaim the land, etc. Use the rules as mere guide lines, and let the PCs decide how much to be involved in the castle rebuild, and allow for sectional rebuilding over time, again like Redgrave said. I think he has the pulse of the process and situation you're looking for.
That said, james maissen has a good idea too with the lyre of building-if it works that way, I haven't looked at it recently.

HalfOrcHeavyMetal |

Lacking any Pathfinder/Kingmaker Modules at this point (we're just finishing ploughing through our backlog of games), but assuming the PCs have some Crafting/Profession skills and access to mid-level magic, there is nothing stopping the Wizard from crafting a Staff of Walls and doing a quick patch-job with Wall of Stone/Wall of Iron/Wall of Stone on the worse areas of the walls to keep the enemy from knocking down the walls.
Nothing takes the wind out of an army's sails like the catapult breaking off a section of wall ... and there is a gleaming layer of polished iron underneath, completely unscratched.
The PCs offering, contract included and ready to be shipped off to as many places for storage and use as need be, the locals that are aligned with them to come in and make the castle less a bastion of power and more a mutual defence structure. PCs nominally 'own' the castle but upon completion, the structure reverts to shared ownership between the partners, equal up-keep from everyone and the PCs have a source of Role-Play and a place where they can meet up with old friends/rivals to help keep the area safe.
And if they need to move on, gifting their share to the locals is sure to earn them some massive favours down the line when they're facing the big-bad of the campaign, or selling it outright so they can get over that wealth 'hump' and buy the desperately needed upgrades.
Again, building the Fortress back up should rely heavily upon the Casters performing miracles with their spells and the other classes backing up with Craft and Profession skills or failing that, sheer bloody grunt work. Casters can summon in outsiders, elementals, genies, archons, azata, demons, devils, whatever to use their spell-like abilities or special abilities to surpass mundane crafting skills.
My Skeletons picked up shovels and picks and cleared out the dirt/clay left behind by her Soften Earth and Stone and could clear out one casting of SEaS every 20 minutes. I used Summon Monster III and IV to summon Small Ooze Paramentals to melt air-vents to the surface and then added some good old elbow-grease to put adamantine grills in them with embedded Alarms on them and then had my Shaitan Stone Shape them into place.
For an expenditure of a mere 6 days of the Shaitan's time (I paid her with an exquisite piece of Platnium jewellery, a bracer of elvish design that was encrusted with tiny diamonds and jet, even though I didn't have to) and spent roughly 5000 on her in bribes and food and drink, around 12000 on the four Alarm enchanted grills for my air-vents and could then bring in some discreet fitters to supply the steel doors and masterwork locks, another 6000 and since I had been planning this for some time, some furnishings and other bits-and-pieces. Skeletons manned the Guard Room, plenty of air-movement so it didn't get stuffy, looked nice given the Shaitan had taken kindly to my treatment of her and had made the walls, ceiling and floor smooth as marble and since I had made Darkvision permanent at 10th level, I needed no lights so any intruders would need to bring their own or would have to have similar abilities.
By 14th level, it was completely furnished, every door was enchanted, the walls had been magically reinforced with embedded Wall of Force spells and the whole place was under a permanent Non-Detection spell linked to a Wondrous Item in my personal chambers.
Sadly by 16th level our Paladin had had a mental melt-down and was betraying everyone and I think a the DM ended up writing it off as becoming the new base-of-operations for a new band of adventurers.

Rezdave |
assuming the PCs have some Crafting/Profession skills and access to mid-level magic, there is nothing stopping the Wizard from crafting a Staff of Walls
Very fair. Wall of stone and stone shape make castle construction much easier for PCs at higher levels. The Stronghold Builder's Guide has rules for this.
However, OP stated that this reward was for a "first quest", so in my posts I'm assuming PC levels will be 3-5 at best, perhaps 1-2.
R.

HalfOrcHeavyMetal |

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:assuming the PCs have some Crafting/Profession skills and access to mid-level magic, there is nothing stopping the Wizard from crafting a Staff of WallsVery fair. Wall of stone and stone shape make castle construction much easier for PCs at higher levels. The Stronghold Builder's Guide has rules for this.
However, OP stated that this reward was for a "first quest", so in my posts I'm assuming PC levels will be 3-5 at best, perhaps 1-2.
R.
Blargh. That will teach me to stop going over the forums when dog tired. Uhm .... at the low levels, at best the players are going to be cutting log, sharpening the ends and making temporary walls and/or barricades to keep things out.
I'm not sure you could use Mending for such a thing, but assuming the PCs are willing to do so, the casters could rely upon the more physical PCs to gather the stones they know came from the wall, pack them in as tightly as possible and then have the casters spend a few days casting Mending to get any 'broken internal walls of buildings and such-like.
Again, this is why it is important for the PCs to have Crafting and Profession skills! Not only does it add depth to the character and provide Role Play opportunities but it can help save time and money in adventures! Hell, I've taken Profession (Cook) simply so the party's rations can be turned into something a bit more edible and used that Profession skill to help sweeten the mood of prisoners and allies that shared out camp. Drow prisoner is expecting stale flatbread and salted beef. Instead, he is presented with Steamed Cave Fisher in it's own shell, complete with a delicate cheese and white whine sauce. He was much more amendable to our diplomacy checks afterwards, I can tell you.
Unseen Servant can be given a broom or a rake and start cleaning up the open spaces, or if that is done, a mop and a bucket of water and clean the inside buildings of dust and cobwebs.
Detect Secret Doors can be a great method for discovering hidden chambers that might have survived the original looting. Perhaps the players will uncover treasure, perhaps a monster, perhaps even the remains of a former tenant .... and their ghost!
Otherwise, I really can't suggest more of a temporary 'do it yourself' fix until the PCs can get some cold hard coin and some allies to help rebuild this place than the Log Walls .... which will probably piss off every nearby Druid.

Helic |

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:assuming the PCs have some Crafting/Profession skills and access to mid-level magic, there is nothing stopping the Wizard from crafting a Staff of WallsVery fair. Wall of stone and stone shape make castle construction much easier for PCs at higher levels. The Stronghold Builder's Guide has rules for this.
Yeah, I did the math on this once. It's not so nice. At the bottom end (9th level, Conjuration Specialist, 20 INT, Bonded Object) you can cast 4 Wall of Stone spells per day, getting 9 x 5'x5'x2" squares per casting. You need six of those squares to make a 5'x5'x1' thick wall - which is insufficient for anything but residential stonework. So in one day you make 6 x 5'x5'x1', or a ten foot high, 15' long wall that's 1' thick. Needless to say it takes weeks, if not months, of repeating this pattern to build something resembling a keep, or do major repairs to one.
It gets better at 12th and 16th level especially, where you get 3" and 4" thick walls (respectively), but it's still much slower than you might expect, unless you prepare ALL your 5th level (plus) spells as Wall of Stone.
Stronghold Builder's Guide is IMO a horrible book - mostly because of the retarded building prices. Your average small tower or keep is in the 50,000-70,000gp range and it's pretty much a stone dump with little to no luxury or amenity. Especially when you consider that the same amount of money could keep you at a wealthy lifestyle (100gp/month) for 500-700 months (that's 41-58 YEARS, BTW).
I'd suggest slicing the prices of everything to 1/10th book value. This actually lets PCs build stuff without sinking ALL of their money, or using precious feats, into the project. At 10% the price (excepting enchantments, naturally), the Stronghold Builder's Guide makes a hell of a lot more sense.

josh hill 935 |
cheers guys. i think the best way to do it woud e to just have it as an option to improve. they will get it at level 2 so wont be up to repairing it themselves but after their second quest they could go to a nearby village and ask for people to work on it. when they get back they find wall a done. obviously they can stick around and help casting spells e.c.t but it will be verry time consuming

Iczer |

Try making a shack someday.
single room. dirt floor. little to no furniture. one space.
Barracks. costs 400 GP to outfit a room with 10 bunks, a footlocker for each bunk and a privy.
A common area take sup the same space, has a few benches and some 'unispiring artwork or tapestries'. 500gp
an open courtyard (read 'no roof') surfaced with gravel and a rough bench or two. 1000GP. (that's some expensive gravel.)
Cell: this room contains a few straw matresses and some shackles. it's half the size of the barracks. cost is 500GP. (It may be cheaper to house prisoners i a spare barracks)
Storage: basic. Ah HA! here's the cheap one. 250 gold gets you a dirt floor and a ...... nope that's it. a dirt floor comes with this room. Shelves not included (they are mentioned in both fancy and luxury storage)
OK so the single, unfurnished room with a dirt floor costs 250Gold.
Walls come next. Masonry walls for your one room shack will cost 2500 Gold. Dirt walls (yeah, packed earth walls) cost 250 and is a bargain (?!?) The notes say that wooden walls are free for ground floor structures. I can only hope they mean that it's included in the price of the original building.
So 250 GP for a single room, dirt floor shack with some sort of undefined roof, and including 2 doors (no locks) and a shutered window assuming the wooden walls are free. Compare to 500GP if you use packed earth walls.
Of course some of those prices can come down a bit depending on terrain and distance to the nearest city etc. But tell a player the costs for his shack will range from 200-400 Gold and he's going to seriously raise an eyebrow.
Our average day labourer has to work 2000-4000 days straight to afford his mud hut, assuming no other expenses.
More crazyness though. the guide would have us believe the whole thing can be built in under 4 1/2 hours, but you can pay extra to get it done in 1 hour and 20 minutes.
The book also assumes that labour consists of 30% of the overall costs. so If you build it yourself, your 200-400 gold shack can cost as little as 140-280 Gp. thats a lot of expensive dirt right there. that said, it can take you extra time if you are doing it by yourself (and you probably can't spend extra money to make yourself work faster)
Short version (for those with TLDR): the prices seem wacky at low level. dirt wall shacks shouldn't cost 500 gold, wood ones shouldn't be cheaper than ones made out of dirt. at higher level we have less basis for comparison but Don't use the stronghold builders guid to build a small home.
Batts
So I, and my players, are a bit conflicted regarding fortress builders guide.

Sigurd |

This is a really great way for rescued villagers to show their gratitude. They might (poorly) repair some of the things enough to get by and maybe bring some food or tend an animal or two. If the players are going to have a castle they'll need people. The villagers aren't entirely selfless - they want those jobs.
This way you can have a few people they know they can trust and maybe a servant or two.
Tents can be sewn or nailed over the holes in the roof for a while. They might even stay dry.
Sigurd

HalfOrcHeavyMetal |

Sigurd makes some good points. Low-level NPCs won't have lots of gold to throw at the PCs, so honest trade and grunt-work would be a fair trade for the PCs efforts, plus 'tying' the PCs to the region via the ruined structures is also a great way to keep those 'handy types' around to save more villagers in the future.
Just because somebody is a Commoner doesn't mean they're dumb!
Don't forget most people are Commoners and Experts! Commoners and Experts both Craft and Profession skills, so while the PCs might not have many ranks, they will have a lot of hands who can point out local resources the PCs can safely use. John the Shepherd (expert 1) might not be much good with anything but his sheep and a sling, but he can tell the PCs he spotted a nice natural outcrop of granite a half day's walk to the north. Send out some of the burlier PCs with a few wagons and some NPCs with the right Profession (mason) or (miner) skill and start cutting some stone blocks to rebuild the walls.
Again, log palisades to fix the gaps for the short-term, but beware of fire, termites and irate Druids. Or possibly all of the above.
Other 'low level' fixes can involve tearing down other abandoned structures within the area to fix the castle itself, with the blessings of the locals, naturally. Nobody will mind if you tear down the burnt out remains of a house or other building to repair the castle so long as nobody is around to lay claim to the building materials themselves.

Helic |

Try making a shack someday.
So I, and my players, are a bit conflicted regarding fortress builders guide.
IMO the Stronghold Builder's Guide is Wizards of the Coast's response to people (PCs) who want their own buildings. That response being "Up Yours". :-(
For the record, castles were traditionally expensive to build - they took a LOT of labor. Local lords often had to stop construction while they raised funds to continue later - castles could take decades to finish because of it. Right now, a castle is being built in France, by 50 paid workmen plus volunteers. Fourteen years into construction, they're 1/2 done, though they are effectively understaffed for building such a castle (it's paid for by tourism).
A skilled mason (let's say 1st level expert, skill focus, +2 stat = +9 to skill roll, take 10 = 19) should earn 9.5gp per week, and you need lots of masons to get things done. And people have to quarry the stone. And move the stone.
So you can see how building castles can get expensive - labor costs. Still, I doubt it takes 60-odd man-weeks of labor to build a 10'x10'x6' section of free stone walls.
That said, the SBGuide does some ridiculous things. Hewn stone walls are free underground. That's right, free. Never mind the labor required to tunnel out stone. Wooden walls? Free for the first floor. Never mind the labor required to cut, shape and assemble the wood (or the cost of nails). None of this makes any sense.
And then there's the Lyre of Building, which is an absolute 100% MUST for any castle construction. 13000gp is a bargain for what you'll save. 30 min of playing = 100 guys x 3 days, or, simply put, 50 man-weeks of labor. That's 100 man-weeks of work per hour of playing, and any low-mid level Bard could play the thing all day. Even 8 hours of playing is 800 man-weeks = 7600gp savings in labor. Two weeks and your Lyre is paid for.
That's right, folks. Too bad you can only do this once a week. Oh, but wait, SBGuide says that labor is only 30% the cost of a structure... which is a complete lie.
I realize that D&D isn't supposed to be an economic simulation, but the SBGuide is just an exercise in draining the PC's money unnecessarily.

Helic |

Oh, and another thing that the SBGuide completely neglected: Adamantine. Not for walls or such, for TOOLS.
Yeah, an Adamantine chisel (or saw, or draw-knife) would cost 3000gp, but you've basically turned stone into butter - soft butter at that - for a stonemason. Expect his productivity to jump by leaps and bounds. That stone block that would take hours to dress? Minutes. One mason armed with this tool would replace dozens - kind of like how modern power tools do the same thing.

Sigurd |

Oh, and another thing that the SBGuide completely neglected: Adamantine. Not for walls or such, for TOOLS.
Yeah, an Adamantine chisel (or saw, or draw-knife) would cost 3000gp, but you've basically turned stone into butter - soft butter at that - for a stonemason. Expect his productivity to jump by leaps and bounds. That stone block that would take hours to dress? Minutes. One mason armed with this tool would replace dozens - kind of like how modern power tools do the same thing.
You are absolutely right. That plus Tensers floating disk, mud to stone, and a whole pile of innovations would make a big difference to construction. This doesn't even bring up the Lyre of Building.
The problem though is that there are no comprehensive tweaked out building rules. I'd love to see some, if you feel ambitious :). As it is the rules at large are largely SBGuide and the Kingmaker modules from Paizo. I also think there was a house available to be restored in the Age of Worms Path from the Dragon.
There is also a good pdf from Dark Quest Publishing called the 'Land and Home Guide'. Its cheap and overlooked but I enjoyed it a lot.
Sigurd

Helic |

Helic wrote:You are absolutely right. That plus Tensers floating disk, mud to stone, and a whole pile of innovations would make a big difference to construction. This doesn't even bring up the Lyre of Building.Oh, and another thing that the SBGuide completely neglected: Adamantine. Not for walls or such, for TOOLS.
The problem with spells, even 1st level ones, is that Wizards don't come cheap. Even 1st level Wizards, by the book, will charge 10gp for Tenser's Floating Disk, and no way will that move more stuff than some guy you've hired for 10gp a week. DIY Wizardry is another matter, of course, but then you're not adventuring.
I was planning on building my own tower when I hit 9th level with Wall of Stone, Stone Shape and Fabricate. We were using a spell point system at the time, and even then a fairly small tower was going to take several months to make (pure spellcasting). Wouldn't have been a big deal in our campaign, where sometimes a few months pass between adventures, but in many campaigns time like that isn't available. Now we've switched to Pathfinder (pretty straight up) and it will take roughly twice the time, so I'm quibbling (now Transmute Rock to Mud and Lyre of Building are IMO better options, see below).
The problem though is that there are no comprehensive tweaked out building rules. I'd love to see some, if you feel ambitious :).
It really boils down to assumptions about labor. How many (ordinary) masons does it take to build a certain amount of stone wall in a week? Same goes for carpenters - and you can't use modern values b/c most of the power tooling doesn't exist. And then the intersection of magical items and spells comes into play.
For example, Transmute Rock to Mud is VERY VERY useful, so long as your source of unworked stone is close to your building site. Even if it isn't, just pour said mud into forms, hit the area with Dispel Magic and presto, instant blocks you can move to the building site. At this point, all your masons are doing is mortaring the blocks together. And each casting will produce (roughly) 22000 cubic feet of blocks. That's a 10'x10'x220' section of walls. And it's not crappy soft sandstone like Transmute Mud to Rock produces, it preserves the original substance (specifically). It's well worth paying the Wizard the 900gp for the spells he's cast, too (Transmute Rock to Mud, then Transmute Mud to Rock). If you DIY, it's almost free (setup costs for block forms and fairly minor labor costs for mud handling).
Transporting the blocks becomes a bigger problem than anything else in the equation - I don't think there's an easy magical solution for this one (Portals are not an easy solution). But at the other end, somebody with a Lyre of Building is waiting - if you want to cut the masons out of the picture almost completely.
There is absolutely NO reason this wouldn't be standard procedure for building any stone building, given how much buildings are 'supposed' to cost. The only limiting factor is the availability of 9th level Wizards (generally low), but given how profitable it is, it's surely worth his time (ride to quarry, cast Transmute Rock to Mud, wait for forms to get filled, cast Transmute Mud to Rock, ride home 900gp richer).

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Where I struggle is when magic gets really involved. I've heard the debates regarding whether mages have the skill or not.
However, consider the following:
Human wizard/loremaster, total level 9.
High intelligence + magic item boosting Int, + ranks + loremaster equals a pretty impressive craft skill for just about anything.
Example 3 ranks (stonemason) + 7 (Int) + 1 (Loremaster) = 21 DC by taking 10.
Cast Wall of Stone.
Cast Fabricate.
It appears by spamming this and taking ranks in Engineering and all sorts of other things, a wizard can pretty much build anything they want, nearly for free.

Helic |

Where I struggle is when magic gets really involved. I've heard the debates regarding whether mages have the skill or not.
Cast Wall of Stone.
Cast Fabricate.It appears by spamming this and taking ranks in Engineering and all sorts of other things, a wizard can pretty much build anything they want, nearly for free.
Lyre of Building says zilcho about skill other than the Perform skill, but the Fabricate spell does - which amounts to:
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
So yeah, fancy carved stonework? Craft check. Mortared stone walls? No Craft check.

brad bender |
I personally love custom magic items for this:
Hammer of Fabricate: use activated (swing it) fabricate. spell lvl 5, caster lvl 9 X 2000 gp for use activated = 90,000gp. Well worth the investment. 6 seconds for every 10 cubic feet of wall.
Wow is that a gem. What DM would ever let this fly? The rules for magic item creation are not intended to be used like this. Otherwise, next time you run a game I am going to make:
Hammer of Cure Light Wounds
Spell level 1, Caster Level 1, x 2000 GP for use activated = 2,000 GP. Cool?
How about a million other spells/items like this?

Rezdave |
Rezdave wrote:However, OP stated that this reward was for a "first quest", so in my posts I'm assuming PC levels will be 3-5 at best, perhaps 1-2Blargh. That will teach me to stop going over the forums when dog tired. Uhm .... at the low levels, at best the players are going to ...
Glad you didn't take my comment the wrong way.
Drow prisoner ... is presented with Steamed Cave Fisher in it's own shell, complete with a delicate cheese and white whine sauce (emphasis added)
Ok, that was funny. I get it ... Drow/white Prisoner/whine ...
I'm sorry to say that Cave Fisher is actually a bit gamey, and so delicate cheeses and white wine doesn't work. It's better marinated then grilled on the half-shell while paired with a full-bodied red
R.

Caineach |

Caineach wrote:I personally love custom magic items for this:
Hammer of Fabricate: use activated (swing it) fabricate. spell lvl 5, caster lvl 9 X 2000 gp for use activated = 90,000gp. Well worth the investment. 6 seconds for every 10 cubic feet of wall.
Wow is that a gem. What DM would ever let this fly? The rules for magic item creation are not intended to be used like this. Otherwise, next time you run a game I am going to make:
Hammer of Cure Light Wounds
Spell level 1, Caster Level 1, x 2000 GP for use activated = 2,000 GP. Cool?
How about a million other spells/items like this?
Traps of cure light wounds are cheaper. Put a spell trap on something with CLW it costs 500 for CL1 SP1, instead of 2000 (I would not allow it). But when you consider wands are are 500 for 50 charges, if a party really wants to buy your hammer instead of 4 wands I would let them. Sure, my game blows through about 50 charges a dungeon and has sessions where we wear out multiple wands, but this would just let us spend our money on more interesting things instead of everyone carrying 2 wands. My GM refuses though.
As for the hammer of fabricate, I plan on getting one in my current campaign. My GM already told me he would let our caster make it. I don't think it would even be the most powerful item the party gets. Certainly not the most expensive, as we already got a possessed, intelligent staff of the magi at lvl 1.

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The problem though is that there are no comprehensive tweaked out building rules.
If I recall correctly there was the Stronghold Construction Kit that was written for the 3.0 rules set. Got into a lot of details on how various classes, items, and spells could cut time and cost off of stronghold construction. Worth diggging up off of some bargain rack if you can find one.

brad bender |
brad bender wrote:Caineach wrote:I personally love custom magic items for this:
Hammer of Fabricate: use activated (swing it) fabricate. spell lvl 5, caster lvl 9 X 2000 gp for use activated = 90,000gp. Well worth the investment. 6 seconds for every 10 cubic feet of wall.
Wow is that a gem. What DM would ever let this fly? The rules for magic item creation are not intended to be used like this. Otherwise, next time you run a game I am going to make:
Hammer of Cure Light Wounds
Spell level 1, Caster Level 1, x 2000 GP for use activated = 2,000 GP. Cool?
How about a million other spells/items like this?
Traps of cure light wounds are cheaper. Put a spell trap on something with CLW it costs 500 for CL1 SP1, instead of 2000 (I would not allow it). But when you consider wands are are 500 for 50 charges, if a party really wants to buy your hammer instead of 4 wands I would let them. Sure, my game blows through about 50 charges a dungeon and has sessions where we wear out multiple wands, but this would just let us spend our money on more interesting things instead of everyone carrying 2 wands. My GM refuses though.
As for the hammer of fabricate, I plan on getting one in my current campaign. My GM already told me he would let our caster make it. I don't think it would even be the most powerful item the party gets. Certainly not the most expensive, as we already got a possessed, intelligent staff of the magi at lvl 1.
Ok, fine, the hammer does D6 damage per hit to heal D8+1? So then make it a use activated sponge. Point being that this is a gross raping of the "use activated" rules and item creation in general.
As for the intelligent staff of magi etc as a basis for saying the hammer is ok, then thats fine, you just have an idiot for a DM. That game will last about 7 minutes at this rate. While it is cool to have really neat items, they are also the fast path to brokenation.

james maissen |
brad bender wrote:Hammer of Cure Light WoundsDeals 1d6 damage to cure 1d8+1. Sounds like a very painful way to get an average 2hp per round, and depending upon the rolls has a chance of killing rather than saving the target if they are in low-negative HP.
R.
Your STR 1 critter swings it to subdue and it deals 1 subdual while curing 1d8+1. Next time it deals 1 subdual, heals the prior subdual as well as 1d8+1 lethal.
The point is moot though.
That chart was to help DMs price items that they figured were reasonable already.
-James

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |

There are a number of things you can add to this.
For example, you can get the Sky Forge from Eberron which is a mithral anvil that turbocharges your Fabricate spells x10 so long as you have the Greater Dragonmark of Making. You can also couple this with Monty Cook's old Wildwood Crafter prestige class from 3.0 which lets you create wood and later stone items that have double their usual hardness, which should certainly help your architecture staying up.
There's also a trick where you make a Tattooed Monk with the Wave tat so he doesn't need to sleep or rest and have him play the Lyre of Building 24/7. Use Leadership to get one of those as your follower.

Nerple |

Can anyone describe how expansive the rule set is for buildings and settlements in the Kingmaker series? I have no interest in the Adventure Path itself, only the new rules presented, so don't want to buy the AP and find out the rules for such things is only a one page gloss over or general guideline.

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |

Can anyone describe how expansive the rule set is for buildings and settlements in the Kingmaker series? I have no interest in the Adventure Path itself, only the new rules presented, so don't want to buy the AP and find out the rules for such things is only a one page gloss over or general guideline.
It's a nice 12-page section of Adventure Path #32. Page 1 is a splash page illustration with a large introductory paragraph in a fancy font. There are also two pages taken up with pages to either photocopy or print from the pdf with various bits to paste down to form a village or just arrange as parts of your props.
There's a system set up where you can build your kingdom, have income phases, have events and whatnot, and I can see where it would appeal to those who like doing that sort of game. There's also a reasonably extensive list of business types, both with stats on how they help you make a better profit with your kingdom (yes, you can build a brothel) and simple descriptions for DMs who just want to create a town for players to encounter and don't want to bother with the day-to-day minutiae of how it's run. There's also a list of events at the end of the piece which can either be used for the system or just simply as suggestions for things that might be going on in a village when the players enter.
If that suits you, it might be worth purchasing the PDF. There's of course other stuff, including monsters and fiction in the issue, so there's more than just the twelve pages.