As others have said, I think having a low ability score can be fun to roleplay. In fact, I prefer 1 really bad score for my characters. It's great fun to play a dumb-as-rocks character, or a socially inept "Sheldon" (Big Bang Theory). Good times, good times. I've never went the "Raistlin" route and dumped my Con, but someday maybe.
As a DM, I have my players roll 4d6, drop the lowest die. They then assign as they wish. If all the rolls are average, I offer them a 7th roll of 4d6 to replace one of their current rolls.
S:18
D:16
C:14
I:17
W:12
C:10Not too shabby.
This is why I use the point buy method. Stats like this would require a point buy of 51. Given that 15 is standard and 25 is epic, this is quite literally off the charts.
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I love the risk, hostory, etc of the roll. I like the even playing field of the point buy. I also like to have my cake and eat it too:
1. Point Buy: 20 or 25 points.
2. Pick your race, class, etc. Apply all the modifiers etc.
3. THEN roll 1d6. Add 1d3 to the ability score you roll (e.g. roll a 2 then a 1 you'd add 1 to your dex.
I like this because there's still variety, but nothing to get bent out of shape over. I like doing it after the fact because this has a chance of creating a more charismatic fighter than you intended, or yo umight luck out and get that extra CON bonus.
I hated rolling for stats back in 1980, HATED it!
Thank god things evolved. Point buy, of whatever scale, is all I'll do.
I've walked away from campaigns when told I had to roll for stats.
Heh, me too. I look at it like this: if you were playing Monopoly, and you asked all the players to roll 1 dice before they started. If you roll a 1 you get the 'standard' start of game cash allowance, any other number is what you multiply the starting cash by. Happy to sit and watch your nextdoor neighbour run round buying a load of hotels on the first turn because 1 lucky roll gives them a huge in game advantage?
Having said that, a good friend of mine faced me down and pretty much said 'my way or the highway for this game'. He used the 'grid' method on Invisible Castle. His rationale was that with point buy, if you play enough PCs you end up seeing identikit stats, everybody has even numbered scores if possible, most people will pick a race/class combo that gives them an 18 in thier prime stat etc etc. The grid, while still allowing for the fact you could get some poor numbers, does give you a bit of leeway to assign them.
On reflection, I think if I used it in a game, I'd make everybody roll, then figure out who had the best stats. Add up the point buy value of that PC, then all the other PCs get 1 pt added to their stats at random until their total point buy equals that of the first player. The numbers wouldn't necessarily be equally distributed in terms of total bonuses, or even how good your 'prime' stat was, but at least you are still built on the same number of points.
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Each player rolls 4d6 six times, dropping the lowest. Then they can pick any players set and arrange for their character.
Thus, you have the randomness of the rolling, but everyone has the opportunity to have equal stats like point buy.
My first SCAP campaign was 5d6 drop lowest two and reroll 1's and 2's, and my current SCAP game is 42 point buy.
I typically do three types.
30-38 point buy.
Normal 4d6 and dropping the lowest. Of course, I review stats and make alterations in terms of balance, and giving the players a chance if they have nothing but 12s.
And some times I do stat blocks.
My friend though..Wow.
roll 4d6. Drop the lowest. Reroll 1s and 2s.
Do this 7 times, dropping the lowest.
Reroll any stat under a 13.
He likes us to be ultra freaking heroic.
25 Point Buy
I prefer this as well. Keeps things even and reasonably high.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Beware: I'm in a crusty mood.
--+--+--
Didn't I just respond to a thread much like this one, last week?
--+--+--
My campaign originally used a dice-rolling variation on the method Craig Shackleton designed, which walked you through a lifepath through "Three Dragon Ante" cards. We re-evaluated our interest in that method when one character ended up with a Strength of 3. (There aren't a lot of weapons a character like that can even carry without becoming winded.) Somebody else ended up with an Intelligence of 5 and a Constitution of 6.
Method One28d6 dice assignment:
- A player can buy extra traits with the dice if she likes (they cost 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 dice),
- The player assigns the remaining dice to the attributes as she pleases,
- The player takes the sum of the best 3 dice,
- Each additional '6' beyond three adds to the score. So we would evaluate a roll of {3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6} as 20.
Method Two 4d6 Grid
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Why do we demand to run perfect, Mary Sue PCs? Why are we afraid to run characters with actual low (5 or 6) attributes? Why would Mok simply pick up his stuff and leave the table if asked to create a character he didn't have absolute control over?
What kind of stories are we trying to tell?
Elric had a lousy Constitution. Kull was not the brightest bulb on the tree. Frodo's physical strength was no match for any of his foemen. Conan was short-tempered and rash. Those faults and failings made them fun to read about. Give Frodo a Strength of 15 and a Dexterity of 20, and Weapon Focus in shortsword, and see whether that makes his saga any more thrilling.
Players think that if their character start with terrific stats, the game will be easier for them. That's ridiculous. As a GM, I know that a party of 2nd-level charactrs with average primary stats of 18, and nothing below a 13, are able to face far tougher challenges than a party whose primary stats are 14, and who have some attributes in the 7-9 range. So the game isn't any easier for the super-human characters, the opposition is just proportionate to their superior selves.
The net effect is that super-statted characters handle any given challenge earlier in their career, about 1 or 2 levels before characters with (4d6, drop the low die, arrange in order) stats. So, they step out of the low-fantasy problems ("I need to climb the rope! What are we going to do about food? Look out: it's a hobgoblin!") right away.
Why not just start the campaign at 3rd level?
--+--+--
Told you I'm in a crusty mood.
4d6 drop the lowest, choose what score to use for what attribute. Generally having already picked a race and class in advance. Usually it comes out even to most point-buy systems, though one time I rolled way above average. Kain the Paladin was STR 18, DEX 16, CON 18, INT 14, WIS 17, CHA 18. Rolled that in front of the DM. He wound up having to add a couple mooks to every encounter at low levels so it wasn't too easy.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I just had to pick on this statement. Do you mean that the world adjusts itself to the party?
Of course it does. Good DMs don't shove 1st-Level characters into an adventure designed for a 5th-level party, nor vice versa. Look at a module like "Hungry are the Dead"; every encounter in the entire adventure is a battle against undead, and there's no dire time limit. A party with a high-Charisma cleric will have a much easier time than a party made up of, say, enchanters and rogues. The GM, and hence the world, adjusts to provide suitable challenges for the PCs.
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I ask because I started my SCAP game with 3.5 42 point buy, and some +1 LA characters. And I haven't yet adjusted the enemies even as they're blowing through them like tissue paper, because I expect the later levels to balance it out. I know you weren't advocating it, but the statement could be misconstrued as 'always balance the encounters to be level-appropriate'.
The biggest objection to random stats isn't that they're random, it's that they're usually uneven. This can be solved not by rolling for the stats themselves, but by rolling for where the points go on a point buy system.
We use this:
1) Pick your lowest stat. It is going to have 0 points spent on it. It may be cannibalized for more.
2) Pick your most important stat. It has 10% of your points assigned to it, rounded up.
3) Pick your second most important stat. It has 5% of your points assigned to it, rounded up.
4) Assign numbers to the non-dump stats - 1 through 5.
5) Roll a number of d10s equal to your point buy threshold minus whatever was already spent. Divide each roll by 2. (or d5s if you've got 'em). This is how many points got spent on each stat.
If your rolls assign points to a stat that fall between values (say getting 4 points in a stat), you cannibalize your dump stat for the missing point(s). This system is unlikely to cannibalize more than 2 points from a dump stat.
Let's assume we're making a Ranger, and want STR to be top priority and DEX to be next. We make INT our dump stat since Rangers get good skill points. Stats are numbered 1 (STR), 2 (DEX), 3 (CON), 4 (WIS), 5 (CHA).
1,1,1,[1],[1] - 5 to STR
2,2,2,[2] - 4 to DEX (Needs 1)
3,3, - 2 to CON
4,4,4, - 3 to WIS
5,5,5,5,5,5 - 6 to CHA (needs 1)
This leaves us cannibalizing INT for 2 points to bring DEX to 14 and CHA to 15, and a final stat array of 14/14/12/8/13/15
It's still a 20 point build. It's just a randomly assigned 20 point build.
I've never went the "Raistlin" route and dumped my Con, but someday maybe.
I had an 8-STR, 8-CON Tiefling sorceress once, easily one of my favorite characters. Had a Ranger/Rogue, combat-focused Cleric, Monk, and Eldritch Knight running interference for her. Mostly Illusion focused. Couldn't even walk without her staff, but never complained or anything. Happy little goth girl. :)
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I use a different method that I came up with, mainly because I had a player who in front of two DMs rolled two 18s and the rest 17. She had stats like this all the time and could do it using your dice, and a dice-cup.
I give four players each a d6. I then hold a box up over their heads and have them all drop the d6 into the box. I reroll any 1 or 2s. I continue this until I have six scores. If there are more than four players then they switch who rolls the d6 into the box.
I then tell the players the scores, and they place them however they want and use the racial modifiers.
My players like this method because it allows everyone to have comparable stats, and no one can cheat, or be very lucky.
I love this method. Thanks.
We recently rolled for a Kingmaker campaign and the DM used the standard dice pool method, but we were also allowed to roll two sets and choose the best and then swop two stats.
I was shocked at how often assigning extra dice didn't help, probably because I have been so used to point buy on the pbp games and in the Society.
Cheers
You know, I think in my next campaign, I'm going to have a group ability pool.
Every player rolls 4d6 (drop lowest) once. Their single roll is available to all players, to assign as they wish. This would merge the "old school" style of rolling for stats with the "New School" style of having all characters equally ballanced.
For some minor character variation, I might give each player their own 4d6, usable only by themselves. Or I might allow them to subtract 2 from a roll (min 3), to add 1 to another roll (18 max).
EDIT: I just read Mage of Myth's method. Very similar, except he's having each player roll 1d6 vs my 4d6. Still, it's the same philosophy.
There are two ways of doing it that I enjoy.
1) Standard 20 point buy. BORRIIIING, but functional.
2) Do the whole 4d6 drop lowest...three times. Then choose one of the three stat lines you rolled.
This one's fun. Some people will take whichever has more middling stats, because nobody wants to have a 5 in charisma. Some people will take the more extreme stats because, dude, 18 strength.
Plus, you don't have one poor sap who just rolled terrible and has horrible stats forever. Everyone has a fairly good chance at getting good stats...they just also tend to be intermingled with bad ones!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One method I hadn't heard of, but think might work: roll 21 dice, and assign 18 of them to stats as you please. So, if you roll:
{}, you might pitch the three 1's, and end up with
STR {3, 3, 3} = 9
DEX (3, 3, 2} = 8
CON {4, 4, 4} = 12
INT (3, 3, 2} = 8
WIS {6, 5, 5} = 16
CHA {5, 5, 4} = 14
a perfectly good cleric. This provides the dice some random influence (only one '6' means that the maximum stat is 16), but gives the player a lot of freedom as well.
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One method I hadn't heard of, but think might work: roll 21 dice, and assign 18 of them to stats as you please. So, if you roll:
{21d6}, you might pitch the three 1's, and end up with
STR {3, 3, 3} = 9
DEX (3, 3, 2} = 8
CON {4, 4, 4} = 12
INT (3, 3, 2} = 8
WIS {6, 5, 5} = 16
CHA {5, 5, 4} = 14
a perfectly good cleric. This provides the dice some random influence (only one '6' means that the maximum stat is 16), but gives the player a lot of freedom as well.
Hmm thats interesting.
Roll the GM 4 times and take his highest offer, provided it is satisfactory.
If not, roll 4 more times.
Hm...
3d6 + 1d8; roll 6 times, reroll lowest, assign as neded.
You can try multiple times...up to 3 but you must use all rolls from a particular set.
We've never liked point buy. We did try 1 game where the best set was used for all of the characters, but we decided we prefer the more random route.
My hubby's favorite charater had a 7 via that method. He assigned it to wisdom and rollplayed it very well.
I like using cards when doing stats. Take 2 suites of cards #s 4-9, shuffle them up and have the player draw two cards for each stat.
We trade who gets to be GM a bunch, and whoever is the current GM chooses whatever method they like based upon how powerful of a campaign they want to run. Our latest GM had a good idea that made everyone happy:
Start with one 18, and roll 4d6 five times. It means everyone gets at least one high primary stat.
If you roll well, you might play a MAD class, but everyone is free to choose whatever class they like.
The key is really to balance everyone's fun level. Everyone having too high or too low stats will make it not fun. The players will have it too easy or too hard and the GM will have to work too hard to either throw reasonable challenges or keep the players alive, respectively.
If you have a specific class/character you want to play (within reason) and your rolled stats just won't cut it, we always allow people to re-roll. Fun is the important thing.
Roll the GM 4 times and take his highest offer, provided it is satisfactory.
If not, roll 4 more times.
whoaaaaaaaaaaa dizzy....
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I think an ideal balance would be some random roll system, (3D6, 4D6 drop 1, etc) BEFORE everyone chooses classes, and then have the GM review and add a bit of balance using a point-buy system. In other words, total-up everyone's point-buy costs, and/or tone-down the lucky-ones. I.e. players add or subtract a D6 or D4 from the very high or very low stats, or even randomly pick which stats to adjust.
That'll help to keep the 'commoner with walking Gods' effect down, while still maintaining the randomness. Not to mention helping the GM balance encounters.
I've been making my players use 15 point buy for Pathfinder, no stats below 8 allowed, and it has really helped to make the game more challenging for them, and easier to prep for me. Yes, my guys are almost universally optimizers, so it keeps the power creep in check, and means I can use monsters straight out of the bestiary without modifications (for the most part). I still have a hard time making them breathe hard with less than a APL +1 or 2 CR, but this allows me to more accurately track their abilities and make sure the encounters remain challenging. I also keep magic items under close supervision, mostly because I have given out too much int he past, and it always comes back to haunt me :)
After 3 decades, I still refer to it as 'character roll up', but have been on point buy since I started Champions.
The last 'rolled' D&D character I played was allowed 3 sets of stats, best 3 of 4 and arrange as you like. My first set, with everyone else recording, was: 2x18, 2x17,1x15, 1x10, 68 points!. One of the 8 other players broke 40. The dm wouldn't let me roll the other sets. I made a rogue. The real problem was in game, I was always slighted, hip-checked and otherwise kept from really doing anything. The dm was so intimidated by my stats that he focused on defeating me at every turn. My feats were rendered useless, better than half of our foes were immune to SA, etc. This was not helped by my habit of rolling 20s. In front of everyone. Repeatedly. When only a 20 would do. And so on. Sigh...
Point buy, the only way to be fair.
I'm totally new at this, so I haven't had to suffer through a badly-rolled character for any length of time; I can see how that would be a source of pain. (Not that my earliest rolls have been exceptional, either). But my first reaction to learning of the existence of point buy was to gasp and draw back in horror.
What? Decide your character's stats *for yourself*?!! Especially with the stingier point buys it just seemed like all the wizards would look the same, and all the rogues, and so on, because you'd very nearly *need* a particular stat in one or more of the positions and have few resources left over afterward.
When our GM announced a twenty-five point buy for our new campaign after I had already rolled up my character on my own (it never occurred to me that a player might cheat; I was having fun with all my new colored dice!) all those numbers were too much pressure. I just calculated what it would cost to buy what I had already rolled and then improved my lowest stat (which was pretty low) with the points I had left over.
Something I've always been tempted to do is this:
Roll 3d6, roll 7 stats, take the best six.
You can them improve them with the point buy numbers. However, it's $5 to the GM for each point you spend, and you can't spend points on more than 4 stats total.
Why yes, I accept bribes. Don't look so surprised. :)
Why yes, I accept bribes. Don't look so surprised. :)
But if you just monetize it, it seems so tawdry. "Who brought me beer and pizza this week?" is a much better ruse :)
Usually, 15 point buy. It's the array more or less "assumed" when monsters and NPCs are created ("heroic" challenges will have similar stats--the 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15--and "normals" have notably lower stats). I bear in mind that anything over 10 is "Above Average" and that the stats many seem to think of as "low" are actually heroically exceptional compared to your average passerby. I think one reason especially in 3.5 power creep became so obvious was not only because people used really broken combos from splats, but also because the designers were assuming (and moreover playtesting) Standard Point Buy stats when the players were (loosely speaking) regularly playing characters with 18s in their prime stats at 1st level.
Now, if I had a particularly high-power game in mind, I might go with 20 or 25 point buy, but I would also beef up the monsters likewise or otherwise make the encounters more challenging.
Generally I like point buy for fairness. I remember playing a game where one person had rolled an 18, two 17s, and a 16, and his lowest stat was 12; another person rolled nothing over 10, and there were a few 6s and 7s in there. That was not only frustrating for the low-roller, it was frustrating for the GM who had to try to come up with encounters that would challenge the high roller without killing the low-roller. (OTOH, I think the GM did actually offer the low-roller the opportunity to re-roll, but she (the low-roller) felt it wasn't fair and wanted to do her best with what she had).
I do remember ye old 3d6 in order rule, and that, or any dierolling system, CAN be fun as long as you're prepared to have fun with it (and you get to pick your race and class AFTER you roll your stats if you are rolling in order) and don't have a GM that's just out to screw you, but rather wants to see how creative you can be with how the dice land. You CAN actually get some really cool character ideas by rolling stats... "Huh, he's high strength, high charisma, and low everything else.... well, this guy must be a kind of beefcake charmer, a bit dim but he's capable of protecting the town and everyone loves him," or... "This guy is high int, low wis, low cha, low con, good Dex... so, he's probably a nerdy type, and has learned to quickly escape bullies..." (Here, I just rolled one. What would you do with this character? Str 12 Dex 4 Con 15 Int 7 Wis 11 Cha 15? I'm thinking Sorcerer to Dragon Disciple. Or maybe a village idiot bard...)
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I've had good experiences with 8 + 1d10, though; it's quick, too.
Running 1D10 + 8 through my die-roll simulator:
Average Stat sum 80.9
Average Modifier sum: 9
Average Point-buy Cost: 34.2
The 34 point-buy probably makes-up well for the less-optimal stat distribution.
Some other single-die averages:
1D12 + 6:
Average Stat sum 75.1
Average Modifier sum: 6
Average Point-buy Cost: 25.5
1D8 + 10:
Average Stat sum 87
Average Modifier sum: 12
Average Point-buy Cost: 43.6
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I've become enamoured with the 15 point buy, maybe because it generates the 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 that was the default array.
I usually shuttle points around and get 8, 12, 12,13, 14, 14 or 10, 10, 12, 13, 14, 14
I've become jaded on high stat characters. Though I notice Pathfinder Society characters can be 10, 11, 12, 14, 14, 15, not bad.
Wisdom is often my dump stat because I play casters (good will save) or Rogues (where I'll pick up Iron Will if I'm worried about the will save)
Edit: I've also found with the net +2 and traits for Pathfinder RPG characters, the 15 point array is fine.
For the longest time, I did: 4d6, reroll 1's, drop the lowest die. If you're unhappy with your 6 numbers, throw them out and start over. However, a couple of my friends are really lucky with dice and several aren't.. Also, some were willing to spend ages rolling and rerolling until they got the stats they felt were perfect. So I changed my method.
Now, the first night of a new campaign, we make characters together as a group. The first thing we do is roll ability scores. Each player rolls 4d6, reroll 1's, drop lowest to generate one number. Then I roll the same to generate numbers until we have 6. The players vote to keep or toss the 6 numbers, and the vote stands. However, I warn them that I will use that array they generated for every villain aside from nameless mooks. I've had them reroll because their scores were too good before, because they know that I'm the best min/maxer of the group. :)
We rolled up characters for Kingmaker tonight. I usually DM so it'll be nice to have a break for awhile, I guess. The DM running the game had us use the 4d6 drop method, generating 2 sets of scores and picking the preferred set. My lovely wife, fairly new to the D&D thing (this is the 3rd character she'll have played) rolled jaw-dropping stats. I mean disgusting:
18, 18, 17, 16, 16, 15
She actually feels like she's cheating...
Zo
My lovely wife, fairly new to the D&D thing (this is the 3rd character she'll have played) rolled jaw-dropping stats. I mean disgusting:
18, 18, 17, 16, 16, 15
She actually feels like she's cheating...
Hah! Beginner's luck. Though I have one player in my group who's the same (almost exactly, except one of the 16s is a 12) who we tend to refer to as Dice Jesus.
Chief Technical Officer
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Currently I'm using 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as you wish...
I'm a fan of this, as I believe it makes for building more interesting characters. I know some people complain that it allows some party members to be more or less powerful than others—but in my book, that's desirable for character development, too!
25 point buy.
4d6, dropp the lowest
If the numbers are too low I allow a reroll.
(Had once a player who managed to get all stats below 10 in three rows...)
Also I'm open to "adjustments" if they are well explained, let us say a player had mid numbers (between 10 and 13) and want only one high number (maybe a barbarian for strength) I say "go for it".
Currently I'm using 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as you wish...I'm a fan of this, as I believe it makes for building more interesting characters.
A character with all 13s and 14s for stats (for example) might or might not be interesting; that has everything to do with the player creating the character, and little to do with the stats involved. But I like giving my players more of a say in what character they can play; if someone wants to play a character like Fezzik from The Princess Bride, I'd rather say "yes" (go ahead and build one) than "no" (just be happy with what you rolled).