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So I've run into a snag with disintegrate: one of my players is an evocator and he loves disintegrate and has been using it to one shot some tough monsters. To top this, I let him have an item called hellcat gauntlets which deal 1d6 additional slashing damage per spell level on targeted spells 3/day. This was fine until disintegrate. The additional damage is negated if the spell does no damage, but disintegrate always does damage. So even if I make my save I'm still taking 11d6. Couple that with the fact I roll like crap (yesterday he did it, and my creature had a +18 to Fort. I rolled a 2 >.<)
Now I don't want to be the DM who purposely kills the character or magically destroys the item. I don't like to metagame and my creatures wouldn't know about the gauntlets or the potency of the caster until after he already disintegrates one of them. Usually by then, any attempt on the caster fails, because everyone else steps in and does their part. I want to make a challenging game for everyone and that is really hard when one player is practically one shotting the bad guys.
Now I've thought of two ways to start countering this. First is that I need to stop letting them rest whenever they want. Too often I hear "Lets rest" after maybe two battles, but there is nothing I can do to prevent them from sitting around in rope trick all day.
Also, mirror image would work well to counter it or anything that gives a miss chance. However not all things have this ability so I need advice. I appreciate any help and advice.
One or two encounters between rests are always going to make the wizard very powerful. So, first if all, I would recommend adding some urgency to the adventures. If something very sinister is going to happen in three days, or the kidnapped innocent is being taken further away with every night spent sleeping, or more and more evil minions are pouring out of the rift every day -- there are many story reasons for not getting eight hours of rest every time you're out of big spells.
As for dealing with disintegrate specifically, the weakness of spells like this one is that there is one target. Spread the encounter's CR among a group of powerful enemies instead. Rather than one CR 14 enemy, use six CR 12 enemies. This way the wizard still accomplishes something very meaningful (and fun) by one-shotting a powerful foe, but that doesn't end the encounter.
Two words: miss chance.
He must make a ranged touch attack roll. If he has to deal with blur or displacement, that's a flat chance that his attack will fail.
Secondly, your idea to keep them from resting has merit. If they're going through 2 fights and then resting, you've got a party centered around the 15-minute workday. Hit them with waves of mooks that he won't want to disintegrate, make them throw some more spells around if they want to be left alone long enough to rest. Heck, don't give them good conditions for resting. Strand them on a plane like Limbo, where the very landscape changes all the time (3.5, I know, but you get the idea).
Third: break out another 6th-level spell, namely antimagic field. Don't do it often, because it can be considered cheesy, but it works well.
Another option: talk to the player about the item and ask if he's okay with the item changing from 3/day to 1/day. Or give it a total of 50 charges like a wand. Whatever you think works best.
If it gets really frustrating, sunder. Also not a popular resort.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Lots of options here -
1) not just miss chance, but flat out hide the target - various fog effects, invisibility, etc. - he can't hit what he can't see (or pinpoint the location of).
2) illusions - give him false targets to waste his disintigrates on, while the real threat is not even there yet
3) actual counterspelling - have a rival spellcaster counter his distintigrate spells
4) magical defenses - SR, boosted Fort saves, spell turning, etc.
5) high touch AC - if he can't hit, no distintigrations.
EDIT: As for the gauntlets - you can always have someone (maybe a diabolist with their infernal theme) steal them and have the PCs have to recover them (assuming they survive the tug of war between the bad guy and the PCs)
Honestly if you are constantly failing fort saves vs a caster, he is going to one shot you anyway. Even if you counter disintegrate, i am sure he could put up lots of spells that will eliminate enemies that fail saves.
Also, letting a caster have only 2 fights a day will make them rediculously powerful to begin with. Even if you cant get at them because they are hidden in a rope trick, the world moves. New enemies move into place, maybe even some saw them in the trick. The bad guy's plans move forward, and they have let time to counter them. Or He parks a big horde of minions in the room waiting for them to come out.
Now that said, your best bet beside miss chances, is to have multiple enemies. If you have 4 or 5 equal CR enemies in a fight instead of 1 big bad, disintegrate is a far less efficient use of spell power. That coupled with important baddies having miss chances (from mirror image, displacement, etc) and you have a good way to counter the evoker without taking away his favorite toy by sundering it.
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At the level that they're casting disintegrate, there are a few monster options that can notice the rope trick via true seeing - having opponents spot the party, then set up defenses (or casting dispel upon the rope trick for a mid-rest ambush) can help you deal with this.
There are creatures resistant to disintegrate - aside from golems, swarms may not be targeted by the spell (as it targets 1 creature), which also includes creatures with the swarmform template (if you have access to that).
Another route I would take, is mention to the party the "15-minute workday" concept. Would a group of brave, daring adventurers seriously spend a half hour on their mission, then sit on their collective asses for a whole day before continuing onward? Not only that, but during their downtime, would their presence not be noticed from the destruction of the previous encounters, and their future opponents would respond to the unknown threat facing them? I find that bit of "role-playing" (or lack thereof) to be more distressing that a pair of magic gauntlets or disintegrate spells, and would talk it out with the party.
I had this same problem when I introduced the Orb of Force spell in my 3.5 Shackled City Camapign. I eventually ruled that shield spell worked against the Orb just like Magic Missile.
I don't know what kind of threats your putting your players up against, but if any of them have access to 4th lvl sorcerer/wizard spells and your not adverse to using the spell compendium, theres a nice little 4th lvl spell called ray deflection.
also disintegrate works both ways and most arcane casters don't have that great of a Fort save!
Didn't Pathfinder fix Rope Trick a bit... ah yes.
The rope cannot be removed or hidden.
Still quite a nice spell, but they can *always* be found.
Other than that, yeah, I'd say the gauntlets are most of the problem - disintegrate is a nasty one, but it is very chancy. +6d6 damage makes it not so.
there is a stipulation made on the 3/day for the Hellcat Gauntlets, and it says that they cannot be activated in consecutive rounds.
If that helps you any
Amusing story told by a guy I used to game with involving a seldom used 2e Shadowrun rule; Headshots.
Players: We want to use headshots!
GM: No headshots.
Players: Butt we want to use them. They are wicked cool!
GM: (Reluctantly) Ok, we'll use headshots.
Later...
Player 1: I'll take him out with a headshot! (rolls dice) BOOM! Dead!
Players: Yeah!
A few headshots later.
Players: Man this is really awesome we're rockin this run!
GM: (Rolls dice) Headshot.
Players: Wait... what?
Buy the end of the night half the team was dead. The Headshot rule was unanimously revoked before the next weeks game.
Moral of the story.
If your PCs find a way to consistently one-shot your more powerful bad guys, it is absolutely fair to turn the tactic back on them. The rules do apply to everyone equally in this game.
Perhaps give the gauntlets a certain number of charges and the ability to determine how many 1d6 to add to his damage. 1d6 - no charge expended. 2d6 1 charge expended. On up to 6d6 5 charges expended. Really makes him think twice before ramping up the damage and also has to be judicious as to how many charges he thinks he'll need. An extra 1d6 isn't that big of a deal and it's in his best interest to use it with just this to keep the gauntlets indefinitely. Maybe he won't use extra charges until he thinks they're in mortal danger. Kind of a limited "get out of jail free" card.
Regarding Rope Trick issues.
Any enemy spellcaster of 5th level or higher has a wonderful ability. Detect Magic at will and access to Dispel Magic.
Nothing ruins your Rope Trick relaxation than having the extradimensional barriers shredded and being unceremoniously dropped 10 feet, unarmored, spells unprepared, onto the cold, hard floor.
If an item is causing a balance problem then don't solve the problem in game. Solve it outside the game.
Sit down with the player and explain the problem and then come to a solution- with him- to nerf the item.
Involve him in the solution. He may even agree with you that its over powered..
-S
So I've run into a snag with disintegrate: one of my players is an evocator and he loves disintegrate and has been using it to one shot some tough monsters. To top this, I let him have an item called hellcat gauntlets which deal 1d6 additional slashing damage per spell level on targeted spells 3/day. This was fine until disintegrate. The additional damage is negated if the spell does no damage, but disintegrate always does damage. So even if I make my save I'm still taking 11d6. Couple that with the fact I roll like crap (yesterday he did it, and my creature had a +18 to Fort. I rolled a 2 >.<)
Now I've thought of two ways to start countering this. First is that I need to stop letting them rest whenever they want. Too often I hear "Lets rest" after maybe two battles, but there is nothing I can do to prevent them from sitting around in rope trick all day.
3/day is nothing, a whopping average of 10 extra hp for the entire day on damage dealt. The gauntlets are not a big deal, really.
I suggest the following:
- Given your magnificent tradition of rolling poorly, maximize your critters' hit points from variables (hit dice, for the most part). This should let them live one or two rounds longer.
- You have already hit on the most important part - once in a while, ambush them while encamped! A rope trick can be dispelled and detected very easily by lower level spell casters. Say, onto a nice large bed of caltrops - worse if your baddies have fabricate, a good Craft (traps) bonus and a bit of spare cash 'on hand' to provide the raw materials. This last is irrelevant in many circumstances (using the local materials for the quicky trap). Drop them out of their window/trick into a nasty pit filled with a pet ooze or shambling mound or poo or spikes or snakes or what have you, drop massive gobs of damage on them ... then leave. Or collect a few heads, either way.
- Especially take care to peruse your favorite critters' ecological information - such as what time of day they are typically active.
- Revive a pet Named Villain (campaign permitting), say ... Olangru if you ran Savage Tide. Have that villain remind them ...
- Use fog and darkness to provide concealment when the foe(s) can reasonably do so in their own favor. Mooks can use smokesticks to great effect, for example.
- Use tower shields toted by mooks - they have to get rid of them once in place. Said mooks do not have to be Medium sized.
Hope this helps!
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is an extra d6 really game breakin? an 11th level TWF rogue with A wand of wraithstrike(swift spell) is dealing +5d6 damage (sneak attack) on all attacks and all attacks are touch attacks. 2 attacks is 10d6, same as passing disintegrate. then you have 2 more....
an extra d6 damage 3/day is nothin that should be gamebreaking.
also, no BBEG's scrying on them yet? No evil wizard who's studied their tactics? if the item is that bad there are plenty of wys to justify breaking it.
if you really find it OP, talk with the player.
Mostly to echo what others said, there are planty of ways to make disintegrate miss. Here is another one, if they are up against someone who is wise to their tactics, Greater Spell Immunity.
DM: Roll spell resistance
Player: Ha, ha! A twenty with spell pen that gives me a 37!
DM: Sorry, that is not high enough, the spell fizzles
Player: WTF, how high is their spell resist?
DM: Against disintegrate, infinite....
And yes I would make my players roll against a spell resist they cannot beat to keep them from metagaming...
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A wand of wraithstrike(swift spell)While it's a swift action spell it takes a standard action to get it from the wand.
-James
I THOUGHT THE SAME THING, but (in 3.5 at least) the PH said "usually" takes a standard action, and it broke down to whatever action casting the spell was, was how long it took. (as far as everything i can find)
I totally agree with NOT letting that work tho. Thats too Power gamey for my taste. IF you want something really awesome, you gotta work for it IMHO
Honestly, your problem is that solo encounters just don't work. Even if disintegrate wasn't an auto-kill, the fact that it's 1 vs 4 (or more) already gives the enemy a gigantic disadvantage.
Honestly, your problem is that solo encounters just don't work. Even if disintegrate wasn't an auto-kill, the fact that it's 1 vs 4 (or more) already gives the enemy a gigantic disadvantage.
This. The two solutions are to give solo monsters extra actions or to just not run solo monsters; give them henchmen and minions. One of the things 4E did right was giving solo monsters extra actions (through action points and out-of-turn or minor action attacks) and extra resistance to save-or-lose effects. If you want to run a challenging but not overpowering solo encounter in 3.5, taking a lesson from that is not a bad thing to do.
In terms of combat potential, flesh to stone is so much more powerful than disintegrate. It is effectively save or die--compared to disintegrate which is a ranged touch attack that, provided it hits at all, forces a save or take tons of damage which STILL might not kill the target.
Clearly, the former is much more powerful.
I would only ever take disintegrate if items/walls frequently need destroying.
In terms of combat potential, flesh to stone is so much more powerful than disintegrate. It is effectively save or die--compared to disintegrate which is a ranged touch attack that, provided it hits at all, forces a save or take tons of damage which STILL might not kill the target.
Clearly, the former is much more powerful.
YMMV. I for one prefer disintegrate - you'll need to make a touch attack either way, so there's no advantage there; FTS is save fail = effectively dead, save success = nothing, nada, zilch. Disintegrate, on the other hand, is save fail = dead, save success = still take a bit of damage at least.
I fail to see how FTS is "much more powerful".
In terms of combat potential, flesh to stone is so much more powerful than disintegrate. It is effectively save or die--compared to disintegrate which is a ranged touch attack that, provided it hits at all, forces a save or take tons of damage which STILL might not kill the target.
Clearly, the former is much more powerful.
YMMV. I for one prefer disintegrate - you'll need to make a touch attack either way, so there's no advantage there; FTS is save fail = effectively dead, save success = nothing, nada, zilch. Disintegrate, on the other hand, is save fail = dead, save success = still take a bit of damage at least.
I fail to see how FTS is "much more powerful".
If you fail a save against disintegrate, you don't die. You just take some damage which MIGHT kill you. Therein lies the biggest difference. Even if you miss the target by 1 hp, then he may well get another round of actions with which to escape or harm your party. Failing a save against FtS, however, will ALWAYS take them out of the fight. It's one of the few save or dies left in the game (or rather, effectively a save or die).
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If you fail a save against disintegrate, you don't die. You just take some damage which MIGHT kill you. Therein lies the biggest difference. Even if you miss the target by 1 hp, then he may well get another round of actions with which to escape or harm your party. Failing a save against FtS, however, will ALWAYS take them out of the fight. It's one of the few save or dies left in the game (or rather, effectively a save or die).
Three points against FTS:
1) It turns the creatures gear to stone as well.2) It can often be undone more easily (of course you can just smash to statue to negate this).
3) Many creatures are immune (Oozes, elementals, all but one construct, many undead, etc) because they are not made of flesh.
Points 1 and 3 are most important. Point 1 is something all players want to avoid. Point 3 is one the DM can easily take advantage of if players use the spell too often.
Mirror Image: The eternal bane of ranged touch casters.
If you fail a save against disintegrate, you don't die. You just take some damage which MIGHT kill you. Therein lies the biggest difference. Even if you miss the target by 1 hp, then he may well get another round of actions with which to escape or harm your party. Failing a save against FtS, however, will ALWAYS take them out of the fight. It's one of the few save or dies left in the game (or rather, effectively a save or die).Three points against FTS:
1) It turns the creatures gear to stone as well.
2) It can often be undone more easily (of course you can just smash to statue to negate this).
3) Many creatures are immune (Oozes, elementals, all but one construct, many undead, etc) because they are not made of flesh.Points 1 and 3 are most important. Point 1 is something all players want to avoid. Point 3 is one the DM can easily take advantage of if players use the spell too often.
Those distinctions were not lost on me. I still think that FtS is the more powerful combat option, however.
If you were to take away the touch attack requirement of disintegrate, then I would be willing to say otherwise.
Stone to Flesh is a very good spell for removing an enemy. The range on it is medium while most FORT death spells are close.
I could have sworn it required a touch/ranged touch. Must be thinking of an older version.
Blink
Greater Invisibility
Glitterdust (to blind the mage)
Ray Deflection (3.5 Spell Compendium)
Spell Turning
Silence
Spell Resistance
Spell Immunity, Greater
high touch AC
high Con
+X Reflecting shield
Dust of Disappearance
Ring of Counterspelling
Incorporeal Spring Attacker
counterspell
multiple monstersIs a short list of methods by which to hose Disintegrate. That said, it's just 11d6 damage. That averages 38.5 damage or so.
Let them fry the mooks, then use the above counters against the party on bosses. Also, if they enjoy the 15 minute workday, use it against them. Apply a time limit. If they rest after every two fights, it means that bad guy X has that much more time to complete his evil scheme. Concrete time limits fix the 15 minute workday better than most other methods.
Notice how several of those defenses on your list don't help you against FtS? That's one of the many reasons why I think FtS is more powerful (in combat at least).
Also, at 11th-level, disintegrate potentially does 22d6 damage (avg 77). Why does everyone keep saying 11d6?
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Blink
Greater Invisibility
Glitterdust (to blind the mage)
Ray Deflection (3.5 Spell Compendium)
Spell Turning
Silence
Spell Resistance
Spell Immunity, Greater
high touch AC
high Con
+X Reflecting shield
Dust of Disappearance
Ring of Counterspelling
Incorporeal Spring Attacker
counterspell
multiple monstersIs a short list of methods by which to hose Disintegrate. That said, it's just 11d6 damage. That averages 38.5 damage or so.
Let them fry the mooks, then use the above counters against the party on bosses. Also, if they enjoy the 15 minute workday, use it against them. Apply a time limit. If they rest after every two fights, it means that bad guy X has that much more time to complete his evil scheme. Concrete time limits fix the 15 minute workday better than most other methods.
Notice how several of those defenses on your list don't help you against FtS? That's one of the many reasons why I think FtS is more powerful (in combat at least).
Also, at 11th-level, disintegrate potentially does 22d6 damage (avg 77). Why does everyone keep saying 11d6?
That's the amount if you succeed the save when using the item the OP quoted (and is the reason they have a problem). Doing that much damage when the opponent MAKES the save and huge quantities if they don't is the core issue this post started with.
I won't argue that FtS isn't a powerful spell (it is), but it has its place and disintegrate has its own. Most players I know wouldn't use FtS simply on the grounds that it makes getting the gear harder.
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ah i just looked up hellcat gauntlets, its extra d6 per spell level (i was reading it wrong before). so its adding 6d6 to it. that is harsh.... um...kill it with fire?
Have something like a ring of mettle? like ring of evasion, but gives mettle (its evasion for fort and will saves).
a mean trick would be to use the variant for evasion from 3.5, so spell reflection. if you miss the touch ac they get to hurl the ray back at you. usable 1 + dex mod times a day. Have a monk with that and its good to go.
ah i just looked up hellcat gauntlets, its extra d6 per spell level (i was reading it wrong before). so its adding 6d6 to it. that is harsh.... um...kill it with fire?
Have something like a ring of mettle? like ring of evasion, but gives mettle (its evasion for fort and will saves).
a mean trick would be to use the variant for evasion from 3.5, so spell reflection. if you miss the touch ac they get to hurl the ray back at you. usable 1 + dex mod times a day. Have a monk with that and its good to go.
I'm not sure that it's such a huge deal myself. A 6th level spell for 30d6/11d6 (12th lvl caster using gauntlets charge) on a single target with a to hit roll and spell resistance isn't that bad. That's 105 damage average on a failed save and 38 on a successful.
Fort is one of the easiest saves to see high values in on a NPC/Monster. I can think of a half dozen ways to make this PC sweat 'occasionally'. (i think spell turning would be a great one myself) Most anything size huge+ will have a great fort save vs this guy, as well as anything planar. Conversely, his fireballs do 10d6 to multiple targets so technically if he hits 3 bad guys he'll also throwing 30d6 damage at 3 levels lower of a spell. Far less of a headache then a lot of the other common wizardly "you suck" options.
I second a earlier suggestion about simply toughening up the monsters hp in general if its a recurring problem. instead of average, give them superior (3/4 max hp rolled) or Max hp possible.
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A good story option might be having a big bad be taken alive or "recognizable". Darth Vader said it best, "no disintegrations." In other words, you can have mooks, even a few powerful bodyguards (good targets for disintegrate so it isn't useless) but against the main baddie, disintegrate would eliminate or at least lower the reward earned. Motivating players by offering extra shinnies for certain actions more often then not gets them to act a certain way willingly (provided you don't overuse this method).
Also, a simple ring of counterspells with a disintegrate placed inside it can work well for any long term foe of the PCs who knows the favored spells of the wizard. I'm in a game right now where most of our foes have electricity resistance or immunity simply because my wizard tends to use electricity primarily. Until I got Mastery of Shaping (edit: Elements, I am tired) as an archmage it was a pain but any intelligent foe will see a pattern eventually and really, I should have expected it. It's not really metagaming if they are opposed by anyone capable of connecting dots.
Heh taken from an idea I had in another thread
put a contingency spell on your NPC mages with the resilient sphere spell with the trigger, target of disentigrate spell
he shoot the sphere goes up the disintegrate annihilates the sphere and you mage is safe and free to act on his turn.
and if he's disintegrate happy I think it very reasonable that if the enemy knows they are coming his reputation would lead them to put such a precaution in place.
Better yet
Start using monster with better Spell Resistance
If you want to set a mean trap have an enemy mage cast antimagic field and surround him by a bunch of fighters who start off with arrows and move to melee.
Or have a couple of mages crates a series of force walls and then have fighter shoot arrows over them causing damage and make your PC mage spend his disintegrate spells taking down the walls so his group can get into melee
Even Better still
GOLEMS !!!!!
Oddly enough Golems ... IMMUNE TO MAGIC !
you'd be surprised how quickly you can make a mage start looking at other spells in his list when you throw a magic immune creatures at him
EDIT
Even more simple
Ioun Stone of the Lavender and green Or Rod of Absorbtion give one to your main bad guy
Best part ?
the more disintegrates and other spells he fires at the bad guy the more the items power gets expended until its worthless. If he'd used other non targetting/direct dmg spells he could have helped the group take down the bad guy AND then kept the very useful item (which you can easily burn through with a magical onslaught of low powered spells
Teaches him a lesson in restraint
If he dosen't learn the lesson keep giving the bad guys items like this and tell them each time they loot the corpse
you find a Ioun stone which is a dull gray, you suspect it could have been a Lavendar and Green stone worth 40'000gp but your magical attacks have burnt it out.
another nice thing with that if they do catch on at worst they've got an item they can sell for 20k or they have an item you can say has burnt out as fast or slow as you like since they dont know how many spell levels left it can absorb
Most players I know wouldn't use FtS simply on the grounds that it makes getting the gear harder.Unless they fail that Disintegrate save and die, at which point their gear also turns to dust. I'm not of the opinion that Make Whole covers "turned to dust." Not that I was even addressing Flesh to Stone in my previous post. If I want to protect against that, I'm looking for things like Proof vs. Transmutation armor enchant (3.5 CArc)
Really, though, it's a compound issue: the item + the players' proclivity to allow the mage's spell load to determine pace. Add time limits and see about obliterating the gauntlet and you'll be right as rain. Someone else mentioned what my end gambit would be: disintegrate them back, preferably targeting the guy with the glove after tagging him with a dispel/disjunction. No more glove. That's assuming the above list of Disintegrate foils didn't bring the important fights back into line with your idea of a challenging fight.
Disintegrate says in the last line of the first paragraph, "A disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected."
but of course theirs nothing against targeting the persons gear. :P
I can think of a half dozen ways to make this PC sweat 'occasionally'. (i think spell turning would be a great one myself)
For the record, spell turning does not work with disintegrate, as it is an effect spell and not a targeted spell. It does work on Flesh to Stone funny enough.
Rod of Absorption and the Lavender Ioun Stones do work.
Just be glad your player isn't using Avasculate...
Don't know if it matters, however, Disintegrate is a Transmutation spell and the OP said that his problematic mage was an evoker. That means the mage is probably dropping feats into spell focus and greater spell focus to up the DC of his EVOCATION spells. If you're barely missing the save DC on his disintegrate (since it should be about 10+6(spell level)+4(ability mod)=20) then i suggest you ask to see his/her character sheet and make sure this mistake has not been made.
Too many players assume that since disintegrate deals damage (and quite a butt load of it early on) that it's an evocation spell.
Admittedly, if geared properly and min/maxed, by 12th level, the Transmuter would have a DC around 10+6(spell level)+7(ability mod with +4 to caster stat item)+1(specialist)+1(spell focus)+1(greater spell focus)=26. That's quite a difficult save to make depending upon the critter you're throwing at them. Especially if it's another sor/wiz.
Just a heads up. I try to make sure and do an audit of my players' character sheets every 5 levels just to make sure they haven't made any "honest" mistakes. (Not that your players are douchebags, but they might have overlooked some things.)
Edit: For spelling...
I can think of a half dozen ways to make this PC sweat 'occasionally'. (i think spell turning would be a great one myself)For the record, spell turning does not work with disintegrate, as it is an effect spell and not a targeted spell. It does work on Flesh to Stone funny enough.
Rod of Absorption and the Lavender Ioun Stones do work.
Spell Turning most certainly does work against disintegrate, as disintegrate is a single target spell, not an area effect spell. Just because it requires an attack roll does not mean that it won't return that spell against its caster.
Unless I've missed an errata or something ... very possible.