My current group is five members strong, three of whom are women. :) One of them has also been a DM before.
So Lindisty mentioned unconscious and unintentional sexism on the message boards and I though that was an interesting topic to explore.
It occurs to me that this is a difficult thing to balance in terms of message boards - especially ones that are selling something like Paizo is. It's likely very subjective in terms of whether or not something like this will be offensive.
Something one does see fairly regularly on the Paizo boards are parts of threads where a bunch of posters are engaged in a conversation that can be boiled down to "Seoni is Hawt with a capital H!". Does not have to be Seoni but the subject matter must be female and the gist needs to be about her 'attributes'.
In this case the staff is backing off, as a general rule, Lisa and the rest of the staff recognize that a bunch of posters getting excited by Seoni (or whatever the topic is) is good business.
How this effects the general female audience of the message board however is more interesting and, I suspect, mixed. I can think of a number of possible reactions. A rare few females that actually participate in the posting. Some percentage that ignore it but are not particularly offended - its just 'boys will be boys'. Finally there will be those that are unhappy. The behavior shows a 'Boys club' mentality that is at least borderline offensive and definitely excludes them. You might get a situation where the poster is thinking to herself "I was involved in this conversation prior to this outbreak and now its turned into something so uncomfortable that I don't even want to open the thread up." If this happens enough (and its not exactly infrequent here) then such a poster could come to feel that the message board itself displayed a 'Boys Club' type atmosphere and that she was not really welcome here.
Tricky thing to balance of course - flagging 'Boys Club' behavior probably gets ignored by the staff. Its not really a violation of the the boards policy and its good for sales. Seoni is sexy because the staff created her that way (or at least they did not turn down Wayne's art when they got it). In any case any reprimand for that type of behavior will be stirring up a hornets nest...
...I've got this image in my head to compare and contrast this in which one one side you have one or two woman saying (in a small voices) "you guys are making me feel excluded." versus 30 guys screaming at the top of their lungs "Tyranny and Oppression!!!". This is sort of how I see the contrast and its seems obvious that one just lets the 'boys club' atmosphere continue considering the likely results of trying to suppress it.
Of course this issue is hardly unique to this message board. Its a society wide issue.
Something one does see fairly regularly on the Paizo boards are parts of threads where a bunch of posters are engaged in a conversation that can be boiled down to "Seoni is Hawt with a capital H!". Does not have to be Seoni but the subject matter must be female and the gist needs to be about her 'attributes'.
Thank you. I'm so relieved to see someone else recognize this as both a frequent occurrence on these boards and as something that has the potential to make some women feel unwelcome or uncomfortable here.
Tricky thing to balance of course - flagging 'Boys Club' behavior probably gets ignored by the staff. Its not really a violation of the the boards policy and its good for sales. Seoni is sexy because the staff created her that way (or at least they did not turn down Wayne's art when they got it). In any case any reprimand for that type of behavior will be stirring up a hornets nest...
Bingo. While I tend to be uncomfortable when threads divulge into 'Seoni (or whoever) is HAWT!' territory, I'm well aware that flagging such behavior would be pointless-- and in some respects, inappropriate. Just because I'm uncomfortable with it doesn't mean other people who enjoy such threads shouldn't participate in them. So I avoid them, and in some cases, I avoid the boards here altogether for days or weeks at a time, because I find the environment to be uncomfortable when those kinds of threads proliferate.
...I've got this image in my head to compare and contrast this in which one one side you have one or two woman saying (in a small voices) "you guys are making me feel excluded." versus 30 guys screaming at the top of their lungs "Tyranny and Oppression!!!". This is sort of how I see the contrast and its seems obvious that one just lets the 'boys club' atmosphere continue considering the likely results of trying to suppress it.
Yes. As much as I think it's important to confront sexism when I encounter it, I'd really prefer not to *have* to in my hobbies, thanks. So I stay away from the worst of the 'boys club' gaming forums online, and try not to notice it in the forums I do frequent.
On occassion, we do have women asking for the Men Staffer's of Paizo Speedo edition calendar (as to whether it is in jest, I couldn't tell you. :P ). But yes, sometimes, boys will be boys and I confess to being guilty of it. It's just a matter whether someone gives off a lecherous stalker vibe or if it's in good natured fun.
To each their own.
On occassion, we do have women asking for the Men Staffer's of Paizo Speedo edition calendar (as to whether it is in jest, I couldn't tell you. :P ).
Or perhaps in self-defense, as a way of making the point that the 'Cheesecake Calendar' idea that seems so popular amongst the guys here may just make things a tad uncomfortable for some women. Goodness knows I've attempted to make such points by using sarcasm like that, though it usually doesn't work.
But yes, sometimes, boys will be boys and I confess to being guilty of it. It's just a matter whether someone gives off a lecherous stalker vibe or if it's in good natured fun.
To each their own.
Indeed. But what's the appropriate thing to do when 'good-natured fun' has the effect of alienating people who are putatively part of the community? Do you dismiss the discomfort of those who are being marginalized, or do you consider whether or not the behavior might be moderated in some way? The answer won't be the same for everyone, obviously, but it's a question worth asking, isn't it?
Indeed. But what's the appropriate thing to do when 'good-natured fun' has the effect of alienating people who are putatively part of the community? Do you dismiss the discomfort of those who are being marginalized, or do you consider whether or not the behavior might be moderated in some way? The answer won't be the same for everyone, obviously, but it's a question worth asking, isn't it?
It's a grey area; it isn't always simply that black and white. There may be some people that would get offended at the drop of a hat while there may be others that would just let it roll off their sleeves as if nothing had happened. Would *I* be dismissive? No, not at all. If I am in a 'playful' mood, it's with the people that I do know and associate with. I refrain from such actions with strangers ... especially if they really may not be whom they seem to be ... as the Internet has this ability for people to be deceptive for whatever means known only to the person behind the keyboard on the opposite end.
For instance, Treppa made a snark earlier in my direction about women being seated behind the desk. That's an example of a camaderie level between friends. If you ask her, she'll probably say that I do have the capability of being crude and I wouldn't deny it. But if you ask her if I come across as purposely demeaning toward her because of gender? I sure hope she believes I don't.
Or else I'm in for a good whipping. ;)
Nevertheless, I welcome the participation of women in the gaming world and on Paizo. If anything, it's to the women's benefit that the CEO just happens to be a woman who's just as a grognard, if not more so, than most of us, in this scene. =)
Indeed. But what's the appropriate thing to do when 'good-natured fun' has the effect of alienating people who are putatively part of the community? Do you dismiss the discomfort of those who are being marginalized, or do you consider whether or not the behavior might be moderated in some way? The answer won't be the same for everyone, obviously, but it's a question worth asking, isn't it?It's a grey area; it isn't always simply that black and white. There may be some people that would get offended at the drop of a hat while there may be others that would just let it roll off their sleeves as if nothing had happened. Would *I* be dismissive? No, not at all. If I am in a 'playful' mood, it's with the people that I do know and associate with. I refrain from such actions with strangers ...
I should note that I meant that as a collective 'you' rather than a personal 'you'. :) It was a question for the community as a whole more than for you specifically, though I appreciate you taking the time to answer it in your own right. And I understand and agree with the point that what is acceptable amongst friends can be easily misconstrued by a stranger.
On occassion, we do have women asking for the Men Staffer's of Paizo Speedo edition calendar (as to whether it is in jest, I couldn't tell you. :P ). But yes, sometimes, boys will be boys and I confess to being guilty of it. It's just a matter whether someone gives off a lecherous stalker vibe or if it's in good natured fun.
To each their own.
You know seeing Mona, Jacobs, and the gang in speedos, fills me with amusement, he he
Indeed. But what's the appropriate thing to do when 'good-natured fun' has the effect of alienating people who are putatively part of the community? Do you dismiss the discomfort of those who are being marginalized, or do you consider whether or not the behavior might be moderated in some way? The answer won't be the same for everyone, obviously, but it's a question worth asking, isn't it?It's a grey area; it isn't always simply that black and white. There may be some people that would get offended at the drop of a hat while there may be others that would just let it roll off their sleeves as if nothing had happened. Would *I* be dismissive? No, not at all. If I am in a 'playful' mood, it's with the people that I do know and associate with. I refrain from such actions with strangers ...I should note that I meant that as a collective 'you' rather than a personal 'you'. :) It was a question for the community as a whole more than for you specifically, though I appreciate you taking the time to answer it in your own right. And I understand and agree with the point that what is acceptable amongst friends can be easily misconstrued by a stranger.
Yes, just wanted to chime in here , since you are a stranger to me, it would be inappropriate for me to make any disrespectful remarks to or at you. Paizo has those policies for a reason, and for good reason.
You know seeing Mona, Jacobs, and the gang in speedos, fills me with amusement, he he
...and here I thought you were just happy to see them. :P
You know seeing Mona, Jacobs, and the gang in speedos, fills me with amusement, he he...and here I thought you were just happy to see them. :P
Oh I am, they are famous people, he he
Sigh. Sometimes it's difficult waiting until you know someone well enough so that you can disrespect them. Difficult, but well worth the wait.
Oh I am, they are famous people, he heYou know seeing Mona, Jacobs, and the gang in speedos, fills me with amusement, he he...and here I thought you were just happy to see them. :P
So, you get that kind of reaction every time you see a famous person? I thought you were at least 40, not 18. :P
Sigh. Sometimes it's difficult waiting until you know someone well enough so that you can disrespect them. Difficult, but well worth the wait.
...and sometimes, there are some people that only needs to post once and they're worth every bit of disrespect that's coming to them. Like trolls. :P
So, you get that kind of reaction every time you see a famous person? I thought you were at least 40, not 18. :POh I am, they are famous people, he heYou know seeing Mona, Jacobs, and the gang in speedos, fills me with amusement, he he...and here I thought you were just happy to see them. :P
There is a difference between physical, and mental maturity stages, he he
Yes, just wanted to chime in here , since you are a stranger to me, it would be inappropriate for me to make any disrespectful remarks to or at you. Paizo has those policies for a reason, and for good reason.
Err... which policies would those be?
If you mean the general requirement for basic civility, yes, that's an important thing in any online community. But even within those bounds, there are ways that a community's standards of acceptable behavior can make certain members feel excluded or marginalized, and how a community as a whole (and the individual members thereof) react when the perceived exclusion or marginalization is pointed out can be very informative.
It certainly tells ME whether or not it's worth sticking around a thread, or engaging with a particular poster here sometimes. :)
Yes, just wanted to chime in here , since you are a stranger to me, it would be inappropriate for me to make any disrespectful remarks to or at you. Paizo has those policies for a reason, and for good reason.Err... which policies would those be?
If you mean the general requirement for basic civility, yes, that's an important thing in any online community. But even within those bounds, there are ways that a community's standards of acceptable behavior can make certain members feel excluded or marginalized, and how a community as a whole (and the individual members thereof) react when the perceived exclusion or marginalization is pointed out can be very informative.
It certainly tells ME whether or not it's worth sticking around a thread, or engaging with a particular poster here sometimes. :)
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.
Also, spelled out here.
Yes, just wanted to chime in here , since you are a stranger to me, it would be inappropriate for me to make any disrespectful remarks to or at you. Paizo has those policies for a reason, and for good reason.Err... which policies would those be?
If you mean the general requirement for basic civility, yes, that's an important thing in any online community. But even within those bounds, there are ways that a community's standards of acceptable behavior can make certain members feel excluded or marginalized, and how a community as a whole (and the individual members thereof) react when the perceived exclusion or marginalization is pointed out can be very informative.
It certainly tells ME whether or not it's worth sticking around a thread, or engaging with a particular poster here sometimes. :)
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)
In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:Also, spelled out here.
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.
Yeah, what he said, too. And you can flag posts as well...oh wait you already flagged me...ooopsie
Yeah, what he said, too. And you can flag posts as well...oh wait you already flagged me...ooopsie
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)
In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:Also, spelled out here.
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.
Nope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
Nope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
Eric? Nah. He's too submissive and enjoys being under the heels of a well placed female boot to cause any trouble. :P
Heh heh. Oops, sorry Eric.
Eric? Nah. He's too submissive and enjoys being under the heels of a well placed female boot to cause any trouble. :PNope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
True dat. Please don't beat me master, he he
True dat. Please don't beat me master, he heEric? Nah. He's too submissive and enjoys being under the heels of a well placed female boot to cause any trouble. :PNope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
Oh, really, now? ;)
(And now, I shall shut up before I get myself in trouble. I truly haven't meant to target anyone specifically with any of my comments, and I hope it hasn't come across that way.)
|
Yeah, what he said, too. And you can flag posts as well...oh wait you already flagged me...ooopsie
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)
In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:Also, spelled out here.
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.
Nope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
I'd probably throw that in with bigoted myself.
As for the OT, I think having a gamer wife is pretty much the best part about our marriage, but she gets the damndest looks when we do go into the FLGS.
Welcome and happy posting, Lindisty. Hopefully you won't have to flag very often around here. I find it is rarely necessary, fwiw.
True dat. Please don't beat me master, he heOh, really, now? ;)
(And now, I shall shut up before I get myself in trouble. I truly haven't meant to target anyone specifically with any of my comments, and I hope it hasn't come across that way.)
...and the merriment begins. ;)
And BTW Lindisty, welcome, and if you ever want to partake in any mindless debauchery, come over to FAWTLY Towers. Just remember the rules, No Religion, and No Politics. :)
And no Sports either, he he
Oh, really, now? ;)
(And now, I shall shut up before I get myself in trouble. I truly haven't meant to target anyone specifically with any of my comments, and I hope it hasn't come across that way.)
Naw no offense taken here, hope you enjoy your stay here, he he
And BTW Lindisty, welcome, and if you ever want to partake in any mindless debauchery, come over to FAWTLY Towers. Just remember the rules, No Religion, and No Politics. :)And no Sports either, he he
I break that every football season .... and you're doing it now with your CUBS .... blech. :P
And BTW Lindisty, welcome, and if you ever want to partake in any mindless debauchery, come over to FAWTLY Towers. Just remember the rules, No Religion, and No Politics. :)
Thank you! Though I've been around sporadically for a couple of years now. I read more than I post, is all. :)
Welcome and happy posting, Lindisty. Hopefully you won't have to flag very often around here. I find it is rarely necessary, fwiw.
Thanks, Mairkurion. I've been around, off and on, for a couple of years now, though. I just lurk more than I post. :)
|
Once in high school I almost got into gaming. I was interested in a guy who played, pretended (I had no clue what it was) to be interested in learning, and it never got anywhere. I could have gotten into Magic the Gathering, for basically the same reason, different guy, but wasn't interested at all.
Then later, a few years out of high school, I happened to meet a guy who was a hard-core gamer. We dated for 4 months without me playing - even though he hosted the games and I lived there the majority of that time. It was more a matter of me being afraid of failure. At that time there were three girls and one guy, not including the GM. One girl soon left the game.
Four years later, I DM a game with one girl and two guys. Both games I currently play in are made up of old guys (youngest being 30) and me.
Last year my guy got to go to Paizo Con - I was in two summer colleges classes, so I couldn't really go.
This year I'm siked to go & will NOT be a GF dragged along!
As for talking about Seoni being sexy...well...I'm bi. A former gamer I knew was a lesbian. I think certain things are inappropriate, but most of it isn't too much -
-- I have felt a little odd going into gaming stores by myself, but now I'm much more comfortable - I just go straight to the section I'm interested in.
Deja Vu...
I break that every football season .... and you're doing it now with your CUBS .... blech. :PAnd BTW Lindisty, welcome, and if you ever want to partake in any mindless debauchery, come over to FAWTLY Towers. Just remember the rules, No Religion, and No Politics. :)And no Sports either, he he
Solnes told me not to anymore...or was it moorluck??
Deidre--I'm in a similar place as you--I can't complain generally about other people finding, say, Seoni hot because, well, I find Seoni hot. It'd be hypocritical of me to yell at a particular group of people for drooling over her when I'm doing the same thing. (And I've also seen female--and male--gamers drool over male characters... there used to be a famous series of threads at the NWN forums called the "shirtless saga" that's like that, so not only men do it, either.)
What I can and WILL complain about are sentiments of, "Well, the only reason they have female iconics is to have cheesecake to encourage men to buy" and further inferences of "female iconics are only useful as cheesecake, they aren't legitimate characters." Which I have seen insinuations around here of at times. (Much like the "I don't want women at my gaming table unless they're hot" that someone mentioned earlier in the thread.)
And I haven't seen it here (which doesn't mean it hasn't happened), but it also really bothers me when I see people (mostly men) on Internet forums bring up discussing a sexy woman, and they begin to talk in as much detail as the filters will let them about how they'd like "to tap that." This is a public place, I don't know you, I don't want to know what your fantasies are, and this isn't a locker room (be it a men's or women's locker room). I especially don't want to hear it if it involves demeaning acts.
TL;dr: there is a difference between being politely (and preferably briefly) appreciative of the human form, and encouraging exploitation, disempowerment, and dehumanization.
|
My father-in-law has always been into RPGs and would play little mini-games with my wife and her sisters when they were littler. She kept a pretty strong interest in RPGs until, as she puts it, she "grew boobs and got popular." Just recently she started attending my games under the auspices of "wanting to spend more time with me" (I'm sure that's what she wanted, but I also think she secretly wanted to start gaming again) but now she looks forward to our weekly sessions as much, if not more, than I do. She's still learning the PF system, but she's having a blast and our DM, who up until now didn't like women or couples in his games, is really enjoying us in the group.
Yeah, what he said, too. And you can flag posts as well...oh wait you already flagged me...ooopsie
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)
In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:Also, spelled out here.
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.
Nope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
I'd probably throw that in with bigoted myself.
As for the OT, I think having a gamer wife is pretty much the best part about our marriage, but she gets the damndest looks when we do go into the FLGS.
Yours too? Mine makes it a point to "dress sexy" when we go to the FLGS.
F'N nerds...
On occassion, we do have women asking for the Men Staffer's of Paizo Speedo edition calendar (as to whether it is in jest, I couldn't tell you. :P ). But yes, sometimes, boys will be boys and I confess to being guilty of it. It's just a matter whether someone gives off a lecherous stalker vibe or if it's in good natured fun.
To each their own.
Lets be fair here. The men of Pazio don't have to limit themselves to speedoes. They have a wide variety of thongs,fantays underwear or the strategicly placed leg or torso twist to keep it racy but still PG. After all look at the calendar craze going on now.
Think about the marketing ploy, you could call it "Fantasy Men".Anyone from Pazio have any way to make this a reality?
I used to think female gamers were a rare, but I now play with 4 different female gamers across two games, and there used to be more in older games. Honestly, most of the female gamers I play with were introduced into the hobby by other male gamers already at the table, with the exception of my wife. She was already into RPG's before we met(one of the reasons we met in the first place).
I think it has a lot to do with how formerly outcast geek-centric media has been brought out into the open. I know firsthand the Lord of the Rings movies did a lot to open people to the idea of fantasy RPing, as well as technological conventions such as MMORPG's and such. One of the female gamers in my group is big into WoW, and was curious enough about table-top RPG's to give it a shot.
When I first started gaming - My mum was the first female gamer at my table, I talked her and dad into playing a game. They weren't very interested as it was "all too involved". The good thing to come out of it was when the "controversies" arose over D&D and suicide and Satanism, she knew it is was b#!&!%@$ and if anybody asked she told them so.
There were probably 3 girls that played in various groups I was in before I started Uni. As gamers were in short supply all effort was made to retain them and they were treated no differently.
Female non gamers in high-school were harsh, as an awkward fat redhead most of the bulling and teasing I received was from girls - I did not have a defence.
If a guy was bullying me I would fight them, It didn't matter if I lost because I would fight them again until they learnt that it wasn't worth the effort.
Those girls were merciless to girls that associated with us nerds, so I would say that outside female forces were a major limiting factor in the number of girls that gamed.
In Uni it was different - more females played, it wasn't as looked down upon as a nerd thing as much.
I think female players add different aspects to the game (they don't make the game any better or worse) from a GM point of view it makes the game far more interesting as there are interactions that you would not normally be prepared for in an all guy group.
Those girls were merciless to girls that associated with us nerds, so I would say that outside female forces were a major limiting factor in the number of girls that gamed.
Yup, NOBODY does social exclusion better than teenage girls
And BTW Lindisty, welcome, and if you ever want to partake in any mindless debauchery, come over to FAWTLY Towers. Just remember the rules, No Religion, and No Politics. :)
Well, no real politics...
|
|
I would like to point out I was doing "I hit it with my axe" 20 years before that site popped up.
With blow and strippers.
Just sayin'.
My group in Florida (10th and 11th grade) was fairly well mixed, six guys, three gals, none of us "typical" gamers (this was '86-'87).
My prison group was all guys, for obvious reasons.
Currently, I see a lot of female gamers either in the groups I play with or at cons, and I am happy, as there isn't much I like to do without women around...
I believe I've said this before, but it really, really gets on my nerves that even the geeks at my school think it awkward or funny or at best mildly surprising to find a girl playing a fantasy RPG. Anyone else have this problem?
While I myself enjoy having players of both genders, I have seen the awkwardness you mention, although it has decreased quite dramatically over the last decade...
As with The 8th Dwarf, back when I was in middle/high school (early '90s), many of the non-gamer females used to mercilessly pick on guys who were geeks and nerds. Given that such guys already had confidence issues, it's not surprising to me that there weren't many female gamers back then — other women would harrass them, and geeky guys would still have their shields up from dealing with the "mean girls".
High School: The only girl who ever played with my group was my sister's best friend. I was kind of chagrinned to find out [5 years ago], that the reason she played wasn't because she liked D&D but because she had a crush on me. Oh to have had more ranks in Perception and Sense Motive... *le sigh*
College My self-professed "militant feminist" GF used to give me hell any time I wanted to play D&D with our mutual male friends. She thought D&D was as immature as playing video games and had no interest in participating. Oddly enough, two of the other guys I played with had crushes on her which (due to low Charisma scores) surfaced as either awkwardness or false bravado... the later of which must have come across as chauvinistic.
Post-college From my perspective, it's only been since about 2000 that it's been OK (or even cool) to admit to being a geek. Even so, the label "geek" still sets me on edge. The only reason I can now tolerate such a label at all is from having dated a number of self-professed female geeks who think that being a geek is sexy.
"Nerd" is still a fightin' word though. ;P
Since those days, I've run one group that had 4 female and 3 male players. My current group consists of 1 female and 3 males (one of whom prefers guys, if we're keeping tally).
In another group I play with, the female from my group is joined by the mother and step-father of the teen-aged male DM. The DM's mom (who is a few years older than me) has been playing since 1st edition back when she was a little girl, and has raised her son as a gamer.
I'm relieved that we have not (yet) in this thread, had the usual 'girls are welcome at my gaming table as long as they wear skimpy clothes' proclamation.
The funny thing is, the female player who still games with us used to do just that. It was fairly irksome because as ever the last to arrive, she'd end up seated at the exact opposite end of the table from me. When this would happen, it would pretty much ensure that nothing would get accomplished that session because everyone's attention was focused on the opposite end of the table from my DM screen. :-\
What I can and WILL complain about are sentiments of, "Well, the only reason they have female iconics is to have cheesecake to encourage men to buy" and further inferences of "female iconics are only useful as cheesecake, they aren't legitimate characters." Which I have seen insinuations around here of at times. (Much like the "I don't want women at my gaming table unless they're hot" that someone mentioned earlier in the thread.)
While I like cheesecake as much as the next guy, I much prefer a capable female character who happens to be sexy and confident, to the "helpless damsel" who brings no other skills to the group besides her looks. That's not to say that a clever female character can't play off of that stereotype to trap those who judge a book by its cover, but that requires actually reading about the character, not just checking out the artwork.
One of my very first RPG experiences (when I was young) was Phantasy Star for the old Sega Master System. When I discovered that the lead character, Alis Landale, was a female who was actually emotionally strong and determined, I thought she was a very cool and admirable character.
Up until that point, the ONLY strong female characters I'd observed in sci-fantasy were Princess Leia and Red Sonja. In both cases, they struck me as militant, chip-on-the-shoulder types who seemingly could not play well with others. To me it seemed like their brand of feminism was to abandon what made them women in favor of being guys with different plumbing. At any rate, seeing Alis leading a team of heroes without being either butch or a tramp was something that stuck with me. It became a quality I instilled in a number of my female characters over the years.
WRT Seoni, I see her as an example of the sort of character who is not only comfortable with her sexuality, but (given her aloof, LN personality) doesn't really dwell on it. Simply put, "it's there". If you concern yourself with her dress' neckline more than the arcane bombardment she's about to unleash... well, she doesn't see that as her problem. (At least that's how I've always "read" her.)
As far as her appeal goes, given the fact that I've been commissioned to make a "Viking-Seoni" outfit, IMO it's safe-to-say that both genders are willing to shell out cash for her. IMO whether it's a matter of sex-appeal, or admiration for a capable yet feminine heroine becomes a moot point in this case. Feminism has taken many forms over the last century or two [in Western society] and what is offensive to the mindset of one generation is sometimes seen as an evolution or a liberation to another. (I'm not going to claim to be an expert, just noting trends I've seen even in my own 34 years.)
As far as the pronoun issue goes, unless I'm specifically refering to a member of a particular gender, I typically use the gender-neutral pronoun "they/their" in place of "he/his" or "she/her". To me that seems more natural than alternating between the use of masculine and feminine pronouns as is done in the descriptions of class abilities.
/elven ramblings
I'm relieved that we have not (yet) in this thread, had the usual 'girls are welcome at my gaming table as long as they wear skimpy clothes' proclamation.The funny thing is, the female player who still games with us used to do just that. It was fairly irksome because as ever the last to arrive, she'd end up seated at the exact opposite end of the table from me. When this would happen, it would pretty much ensure that nothing would get accomplished that session because everyone's attention was focused on the opposite end of the table from my DM screen. :-\
I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. What a woman chooses to wear-- at the gaming table or anywhere else-- is irrelevant to the point I was making.
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her. One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
|
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her. One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
I've personally found that the frequency you run into this sort of thing changes drastically with geography. I ran into it a lot more in Michigan/Ohio than I run into it here in Texas. In Michigan gaming stores, pick up games were invariably terrible due to one or two idiots. I played in private games with the non-idiots I found and had great fun and made good friends, but never had a game of strangers brought together that didn't include a guy that spent most of the game posturing as a jerk or a desperately needed knight protector (posturing himself, usually, and tangentially his character as well).
You'll run into games where women aren't welcome, due to concious or unconcious decisions made by the guys playing. Some want a guys' night in sort of thing - which is fine, as long as they don't invite women. Going to a game I was invited to, and then being handed two characters the group made for me - one titled "The B#@$*" and the other "The Slut" - made it abundantly clear that I wasn't going to be welcome at the game. WTH did I get invited then? *shrug* You note such people, warn other women gamers in your area about them, and move on to groups where people aren't jerks.