Hey, Leaf! When I first saw your post, I thought you were an alias of Mairkurion (however it's spelled). But you're not. Obviously.
Thanks for sharing my confusion, Zeugma. I thought it might be my soul mate or something, but he's not. Obviously. ;)
I have the opposite problem. All I have are female gamers. My wife, her 2 friends and my sister.And sadly, the women would agree with you.
BA-ZING! Thank YOU, Eric!
So, Solnes told me this was the new fun thread.
This is the place to be! ;)
I would resent people implying that I love women just for their special parts.
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Other than the name our thread has nothing to do with the show. LOL, as for the sports rule....well thats my rule. I hate sports. ;)Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
Actually I don't much care for sports, except the occasional soccer match, but they don't happen much in Virginny ;)
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Hey you can talk sports all you, she is just kidding about that, rigth hun...hun..uhh..what are you doing with that...ow owowowow!!Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
LOL!
Sports annoy me, but I make exceptions for BIG games. :)
What, you couldn't do anything with that?
There's no sports like Gender Games.
Sports annoy me, but I make exceptions for BIG games. :)
Fortunately which is all Cub games, he he
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Hey, this is an interesting thread! There's one girl in my gaming group, she's the current DM's fiancee. Just to give my own experience. She's a lot of fun, and I can't imagine the table without her, it would be entirely too serious business and testosterone driven.
Speaking to some of the conversation above about getting distracted by clothing, etc., I think it would serve everybody well to realize that males and females have differing physiological responses to erotic stimuli (even if said stimuli is not intentionally erotic). On top of that, the physiological responses vary even further from individual to individual, so it's totally impossible to say that guys are more prone to be distracted by "cute" clothing than women are by tank tops or what have you. Some women find jeans and a tee shirt to be the sexiest thing in the world (fortunately, or I'd have no wife, lol). But in general, I think it's easier for women to maintain a train of thought while being concious of an attractive man in the room - and this is the important part of the sentence - especially during adolescence, which is when most gaming careers are started and when the most perceptions about what it is to be a gamer are formulated.
So, teenage girl visits gaming group, guys (who are adolescents in their biological sexual primes) act like, well, adolescent boys, and girl is turned off to gaming. It's a pretty common story, one that I even read a few posts ago unless I recall incorrectly.
Point being, I think that men have a tendency to more pointedly alter their behaviour when a pretty girl is around. Does that suck for woman gamers? Yeah. Does that suck for women as a whole? Sure. But it has roots in hard-wired parts of the brain that men generally can't just turn off. It's like the "display of plumage" thing that goes on in the wild to attract mates. It's biology. My opinion only, although I'm sure that there's some research out there somewhere to back me up.
Lastly, this conversation has (mostly) missed one thing in the "why is gaming growing in popularity among women" discussion - Fantasy elements have infiltrated mainstream society on a massive scale, and women are finding that Fantasy elements appeal to them (much more strongly than they thought might be the case based on their 11th grade trip to some kid's mom's basement where all they saw was a bunch of dice and boys acting weird, per my previous theory). Put succiently, they were dragged to The Fellowship Of The Ring, but when the time came to go back for The Two Towers, they were the first in line. Of course, that's a huge generalization, but I'm talking about new converts here, not women who have played Fantasy RPG's for decades. Gaming, as a microcosm of society, is subject to the forces that are driving society as a whole - so it should come as no shock to anyone that in an age where women can't wait to see the new Iron Man/Vampire/LOTR movie, they are not so inclined to dismiss Fantasy RPGs as a legitimate hobby. Oh, and WoW. Don't forget WoW.
/doctoral thesis
I bet interviews of women and their first gaming experiences would be illuminating. I know my daughter's first gaming experience: with her Dad and his older friends. I think this gave her a love for the game before she started gaming with kids her own age and the foresaid disadvantaged young guys.
But in general, I think it's easier for women to maintain a train of thought while being concious of an attractive man in the room - and this is the important part of the sentence - especially during adolescence, which is when most gaming careers are started and when the most perceptions about what it is to be a gamer are formulated.
A pertinent observation IMO. If maturity comes with age/experience then certainly someone who hits their sexual peak later in life could be expected to be more mature/restrained about it than someone whose hormones are outpacing their wits.
NOTE: This isn't any more of an excuse for jumping a woman than getting drunk is for vehicular manslaughter, but then no one reasonable in this thread has equated a lingering-gaze with assault from what I've seen. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we? Getting distracted or turned-on is human nature. Trying to force yourself on someone else is psychotic. Just as it is an insult to imply that any woman who looks hot when she gets dressed-up is "asking for it", it's an equal insult to imply that every guy is a potential rapist simply because you feel uncomfortable.
That's the same sort of thinking that has led to witch hunts.
In the group I mentioned DMing earlier, all of the players were 18-20, at the time, whereas I was about 30. Even as polite and gentlemanly as I try to be, I can assure you that had I been 18, I'd have been very DDstracted by Pixie Girl™ spilling out of a spaghetti-strap halter while the 3 other girls were wearing t-shirts.
Of course, it also annoys me when players cruise youtube on their laptops at the table. When we get together to play D&D/Pathfinder, the hope and expectation isn't to treat it like we're going out to a bar for pick-ups, or having a lolcats marathon, it's to play a cooperative game with some friends.
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her.
Unfortunately in the real world some people are insensitive idiots. Both male and female.
A lot of people that say sexist and stupid stuff have yet to learn the consequences of their actions and are often immature. I have already objected to a poster using the word retard and the word gay in a derogatory fashion.
I don't tolerate people disrespecting each other at my table. We are all there to have fun not to put people down and make our selves feel big.
Then you've had very different gaming experiences than I have.
Yes I have, gaming has been wonderful for me, its my hobby and my community.
And I *have* witnessed men on these boards say they'd be happy to have a woman join their group if she wore revealing clothing. Not many, it's true, but enough-- and with enough supportive reaction from others in the community to make me think it's probably considered acceptable here.
Please point me to this thread so I can know who these losers are and I can let them know in far from polite terms that they are bringing the game into disrepute.
"Not many... but enough" - these are general and vague terms, you are using weasel words that are so broad that they catch all of the male gamers.
This is where I start to find what you write offensive.
I also haven't witnessed a lot of tolerance when women express that such behavior makes them uncomfortable. So what inference am I supposed to draw from the fact that people make those kinds of statements here and get support and that when women object to such statements, we get flamed?
Male posters get upset because you condemn every male on the board with the way you are using your language. You probably don't mean to but what you are writing includes me. Be specific back yourself up, This person said something offensive and this person backed them up.
I am not one of "them" or "those guys", I have no wish to be associated with this group strictly because of my gender.
The best thing is to flag them and let the Paizo guys sort them out.
One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
This is where I was most offended this is the example of you using sexism by stealth. You vilify via broad brush-strokes, "oh those people I would like to think the stereotype I just painted wasn't true but I fear (Im 99% sure) that it is."
So from a few bad experiences you project your attitude on to the rest of the male gaming community. I would find gaming with you very uncomfortable as I would be waiting for you to judge me.
I stand by this.
Saying that I fear an attitude may be more common than I'm comfortable with in this community is not the same thing as saying all men are bad and all women are good. Would you care to discuss what I *actually* said instead of the straw man you're building there?edited to fix quotes
I will stop building scarecrows when you stop making such broad sweeping generalisations - Not everybody is the same, and not everybody falls under neat labels.
It took me a while but I learned that the Universe does not revolve around me, it does not owe me anything, everybody has too much of their own crap going on in their lives to actually form a conspiracy to make my life difficult and when crap is hurled my direction its from opportunistic malice nothing more.
Oh, yes, poor men. We women all have to cover ourselves in veils and floor length skirts, because otherwise we are FORCING them to look at our bodies, purposed only to be sexually available to them, and MAKING them be distracted.
HOW DARE a woman be proud of her body and dress it in the way she feels comfortable! Doesn't she KNOW the poor spineless male is incapable of respectful decision making and thinks only with his pants? What audacity she has to assume decency and courtesy in her fellows, and what further audacity she has for EVER taking pride in her appearance. FOR SHAME.
We evil, evil women with our horrible, horrible bodies. We shouldn't be allowed to have bodies at all!
(sarcastic hyperbole for the purpose of making a point is sarcastic hyperbole for the purpose of making a point)
I'm not sure what's more appalling, the sexist attitude toward women and what they wear, or the sexist attitude toward yourselves. "We can't help it." "You must be wearing that pretty thing for my benefit." GROW UP.
I think you missed the point that's been made here a few times. By all means, female gamers should dress how they see fit, whatever's comfortable, but MOST importantly, what is appropriate. This boils down to what is acceptable by the group as a whole; both genders. Some things are just going to be distracting, comfort or not. Maybe a guy wearing leather harness could be the most comfortable thing in the world to him, but may be slightly distracting, and altogether not appropriate for certain gaming groups. Hell, I'm most comfortable in nothing but boxer shorts. Would I wear only that to a gaming session? Likely not. You see DQ, this goes both ways. A general standard of appropriate dress should be pretty easy to figure out fairly early on within a gaming group. Doesn't have to be a sexual/attraction either. If someone in my gaming group got kicked out of a band, I'm likely to not wear that particular band's shirt at a session with them.
*spoilered for space*
Several years ago, my gaming group had a female friend who would show up to watch, but didn't necessarily game. She used to get all dolled up and wear super-revealing low cut tops, super low cut jeans and such, and of course distracted the hell out of our games. At one point we had to tell her to stop coming over, as our games completely went to hell. She came over because she loved the attention, even admitted it. Had she not gone out of her way to dress to grab a room full of guys eyes, this may have not been an issue. My point being, it's not always the guys fault. In this case, the woman went out of her way to get oggled, and to reiterate, she admitted it. At this point our general gaming "uniform" is t-shirt and jeans, for everyone lol.
I take offense that someone who hasn't posted here, only lurks, would say such things in such a broad sense. When you refuse to become part of something you can not claim to know it. If you see postings such as 'Boooobies" you may be offended. But if you were part of the group that uses that phrase than you would know that it is a joke between close friends who took the time to become familiar and intimate with one another. Friends that don't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. The Paizo community boards are a home, family.I'm trying to work out whether you were aiming this at me or to people in general who use the word above. I didn't use it nor never would because it's infantile. I was asking an objective question about an observation.
Sure, I am new to this forum (been here a couple months) and just finding my way around so to speak. I really don't know which way to take your comments if they were aimed at me, because I have not condoned bad behavior by some male gamers in the RPG community.
Are these forums a special club where you have to have been here since the beginning, or can anybody play? Just wondered because, well, way to make me feel included! This the very issue we were discussing, and for the record I do not lurk. My full name is in my profile and a short account about myself.
If you didn't aim this at me then forgive my misunderstanding you... Mark
I'm guessing it was aimed at me, because y'know, I actually had the temerity to suggest that an environment in which that kind of behavior is acceptable might not be all that welcoming or comfortable for some women to be part of.
Solnes, I understand your point that friends in a community may interact in ways that look very different to an outsider than they do to someone on the inside. My point is that as an outsider, seeing that kind of behavior be accepted and treated as normal in this community makes me feel that I'd be unwelcome in the community, because I'm not comfortable with that kind of interaction, as a general rule. I guess I should thank you for making my point for me.
I hardly claim to speak for all women. :) Hell, my own opinions on a lot of issues are a work in progress, and my mind changes all the time. And I have never claimed that these boards are horrible dens of sexist troglodytes, now, have I? What I've said is that I've seen enough threads of the "BOOBIES!! We want BOOOOOBBIES!!" variety, and enough dismissal of women who express discomfort with that kind of environment to make me hesitant about diving into the community here. I recognize that this is my discomfort, and certainly if the community finds that kind of behavior acceptable, then ultimately it's up to me to either deal with my discomfort or leave the community. But there's enough of value here, to me, that I thought it might be worth expressing some of that discomfort. Perhaps that was a unwise choice.After reading through the points that have been made in the discussion I just wonder if you are projecting negative experiences you have had with gamers in the past and now almost expect to find them everywhere there's a bunch of guys playing RPGs? You know I would feel kind of beat up if I'd had to put up the crap about sexual favors for magic items experience. That was deplorable.
But I can't help feeling that you are being a little hypersensitive to male gamers in general and to what people say. I would be horrified to think that I had, say, caused you unease in the way you say others have, and yet I would probably not have been aware of it, had I done so.
Hypersensitive? Maybe. My first gaming experiences were amongst close friends in college, and while there were certainly times when I felt I was being singled out for different treatment because of my gender, it wasn't bad enough to make me leave the hobby altogether. (There was a whole 'impregnated by a demon against her will' plot that revolved around my character. I absolutely hated it, but was too young and afraid of being piled on to object at the time.) It's only when I tried gaming with groups who weren't already friends that I ran into problems. These days, I'm gaming with friends again, but my experiences when I go to local game stores creep me out enough that I'm still hesitant about the idea of hooking up with strangers to game. Why the staff of the two local game stores I've been to feel a need to make off-color jokes to me every time I go there is beyond me, but I tend to spend as little time there as I possibly can when I have to go there for something.
Now I'm not trying to single you out here, but there are a lot of females on this forum who have been posting a long time who have not had these same experiences here at Paizo, or if they have they haven't flagged it to everyone's attention.
Oh? Have you read this thread? It's the poster child for what I've been talking about here. There's an awful lot of dismissal and contempt aimed at women (and men) who speak up about their discomfort or disagreement with the desire for still more cheesecake fantasy art. (No, I'm not saying that there should be NO cheesecake-- just that there's already SO much of it that I'm not sure I see the need to demand MORE.) That's one of several such threads. No, they're not AS common here as they are elsewhere, but they're common enough to give me the impression that this community isn't as open and accepting-- at least about these issues-- as it might be about other issues.
I guess you're going to find offensive people on any Internet forums but very few here I would consider to be misogynists. In fact my gaming group boasts to female players and no-one gives a dern about their gender because we are all game enthusiasts and have grown up...
Have I said that I consider these forums to be overrun with misogynists? I don't believe I have, and I don't really understand why my posts are being interpreted that way.
I'm not sure it's worth continuing to try to clarify my points, though.
I take offense that someone who hasn't posted here, only lurks, would say such things in such a broad sense. When you refuse to become part of something you can not claim to know it. If you see postings such as 'Boooobies" you may be offended. But if you were part of the group that uses that phrase than you would know that it is a joke between close friends who took the time to become familiar and intimate with one another. Friends that don't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. The Paizo community boards are a home, family.I'm trying to work out whether you were aiming this at me or to people in general who use the word above. I didn't use it nor never would because it's infantile. I was asking an objective question about an observation.
Sure, I am new to this forum (been here a couple months) and just finding my way around so to speak. I really don't know which way to take your comments if they were aimed at me, because I have not condoned bad behavior by some male gamers in the RPG community.
Are these forums a special club where you have to have been here since the beginning, or can anybody play? Just wondered because, well, way to make me feel included! This the very issue we were discussing, and for the record I do not lurk. My full name is in my profile and a short account about myself.
If you didn't aim this at me then forgive my misunderstanding you... Mark
I'm guessing it was aimed at me, because y'know, I actually had the temerity to suggest that an environment in which that kind of behavior is acceptable might not be all that welcoming or comfortable for some women to be part of.
Solnes, I understand your point that friends in a community may interact in ways that look very different to an outsider than they do to someone on the inside. My point is that as an outsider, seeing that kind of behavior be accepted and treated as normal in this community makes me feel that I'd be unwelcome in the community, because...
*sigh* You missed my point. If you would let yourself become part of this family than you would know that if you were uncomfortable then the guys would stop. Maybe not completely, they will continue to flirt and play with those of us that flirt and play back. But they would not act that way towards you.
Do you not joke and play with your friends? Tell dirty jokes? Occasionally act unacceptable? You would not be unwelcome in this community. You have managed to make alot of regulars here feel uncomfortable or guilty for the way that act with their friends, and yet they are asking you to join them. That says alot.And yeah, it was for you, my husband, and best friends are male gamers on these boards, I took offense.
I don't think we are suppose to point out other threads to gossip or complain about them. Thats what the Flag option is for. That will get you a warning.
But yes, I have read it. I took it for what it was...funny. Just a joke thread.
Lindisty, don't confuse your being uncomfortable with being unwelcome in a community. That does not follow.
Immediate feedback is always key. As in the rest of the world, the place and time to say something makes you uncomfortable is right then and there. If people refuse to honor your wishes, you have every right to claim they are trying to make you uncomfortable. If you're reading an old thread in which Boobs Tourette's or other hijinks occur and it makes you feel ooky, there's not much you can do about besides click to the next thread. It's not aimed at you.
Same goes at the table. If somebody handed me a char sheet titled "the Slut," I'd look at the guys' sheets. They'd better be titled "the Manwhore," "the Beefcake," "the Wife beater," and "the creepy guy on the corner with a pencil moustache and plaid suit." If not, that game's going nowhere fast until we get that situation straightened out. If it's not fixed, I'm not playing and yeah, I'd consider myself unwelcome. And if those titles are in use because that's the way the game is going to be run, I'm withdrawing because it doesn't sound fun.
Please don't speak for comfort levels of women in general. Everyone has individual levels of tolerance. It's unfair to expect others to divine yours. Make them known as they occur. I've never had anyone continue to cross boundaries here once notice was given. Of course, I ignore the "Boobies! I love boobies!" threads because they are no more pertinent to me than the 4e threads. They both make me sad, so I skip 'em.
I'd hate to see a woman leave Paizo because she felt uncomfortable, particularly since this is the most female-friendly place I've ever seen. If you're interested in gaming, stay and participate! They's nice folks here.
And as for everyone else, why is this thread still going on? I thought Mizukuzake and I said it all on page 1. :P
*sigh* You missed my point. If you would let yourself become part of this family than you would know that if you were uncomfortable then the guys would stop. Maybe not completely, they will continue to flirt and play with those of us that flirt and play back. But they would not act that way towards you.
Do you not joke and play with your friends? Tell dirty jokes? Occasionally act unacceptable? You would not be unwelcome in this community. You have managed to make alot of regulars here feel uncomfortable or guilty for the way that act with their friends, and yet they are asking you to join them. That says alot.
And yeah, it was for you, my husband, and best friends are male gamers on these boards, I took offense.
I've been reading and posting occasionally on these boards for about two years now. At what point do I become 'part of the community'? Is there some sort of hazing ritual that I have to go through before my views are respected?
Perhaps it's worth considering that these boards are not a private club, and that there are no private conversations here. What people post here may be read by anyone, and may be perceived very differently by a stranger vs. a friend. Piling on the stranger for 'not getting the joke' may not be the best way to welcome someone into the community.
I have to admit that I get a little chuckle out of your claim that the regulars here are 'asking me to join them' after I've made them feel uncomfortable. As far as I know, I haven't singled out anyone, and I haven't suggested that the behavior I've described is constant here. I've said that the "BOOBIES!" threads have happened often enough in the last two years of my reading and posting here to be noticeable, and that when it happens, it makes me uncomfortable. And for saying that, I've been dismissed and told that I'm being offensive to everyone on the boards. Yeah, I feel the warm, welcoming environment in that reaction.
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I'm guessing it was aimed at me, because y'know, I actually had the temerity to suggest that an environment in which that kind of behavior is acceptable might not be all that welcoming or comfortable for some women to be part of.Solnes, I understand your point that friends in a community may interact in ways that look very different to an outsider than they do to someone on the inside. My point is that as an outsider, seeing that kind of behavior be accepted and treated as normal in this community makes me feel that I'd be unwelcome in the community, because...
Hey Lindisty, I do kind of understand where you're coming from here, when I say "kind of" I say that because I'm a guy and cannot completely understand what it's like to be a woman encountering the things you say you have.
Like 8th Dwarf said, and I consider him an upstanding guy from what I've read of his posts, your position can make us guy's feel associated with all the deviants, psychos and spotty faced adolescent male hormone bombs that are a plague to the true nature of RPG gaming. Like him I will challenge any sexist idiot who makes ridiculous uncalled for comments. The female gamers in my game are my most relaxed players and the easiest to work with because they are excellent role players and always play empowering female roles with finesse. I wouldn't swap that kind of gamer for anyone. But also they have enough understanding of males to know when a guy is being an ass or when he is just being silly. I think this is where you have caused offense, unintentionally I'm sure, but context and knowledge of the other posters is king. When groups like this community joke together, they know each other and give as much as they get, but it's done in fun. I am a relative outsider to these forums and as such I get worried that I'll not be accepted for who I am by the older hands. These boards have been a learning experience for me, but from what I've read here I find a disconnect in some of your points as they apply to most individuals here.
I guess the most difficult thing is the text medium and anonymity. First you do not see the nuance and body language of the people you are communicating with, and there is always doubt as to what gender each individual really is, because many guys have female avatars and many women have male avatars (or maybe I mean aliases). But if you read long enough it becomes pretty obvious what genders the posters really are for the most part.
Now, like 8th Dwarf, I will not tolerate any form of sexist, racist or homophobic behavior by any player toward another player in my game. I do not enjoy parties at war with each other (i.e. issues between players being brought out in the game via PC actions and words. Fortunately in my current game this doesn't happen, but I've played briefly in games where it has ;(
Women gamers bring a whole new angle to gaming and if I'm honest are, in general, far better role players than the guys who, for some reason, often like to get bogged down in meta game/rule stuff. But that's not all guys, some are great role players as well. You see at 43 years of age I have an advantage of maturity, and I have a wife and daughter who keep me in check, who are by far a away a lot brighter than I am ;) Even my dog is a girl (an absolute sweetie mind).
I did ask you some questions based on my observations about your posts. You are very defensive or at least hypersensitive to sexism real or imagined, and appear to expect to find it, instead of thinking, give each guy the benefit of the doubt until he actually proves himself beyond doubt that he's a bloody wanker and not worth the time of day.
Having said that, I have also read of the negative experiences you had with what we would call in England - a bunch of adolescent tossers, who if they'd made comments like that in my presence would have received a good thrashing.
But one of the things to understand is that with equality there should be a two way freedom of interaction. Ladies joke with the guys and the guys joke with the ladies. It may appear off color if you do not know the social mechanics between those who have already forged online relationships, and trust and like each other and know that the jests they share with each other, are a friendly camaraderie and not an attack (which is what Solnes was trying to explain).
Whist I was working on my Masters degree in England, one of my female colleagues formed a deliberate hostility toward me and for no apparent reason. I had not said or done anything untoward to deserve this, and yet she made me feel like a pariah. Maybe I reminded her of someone in the past that looked like me who had been an ass to her. I don't know but it really irked me. Others noticed and actually asked me what I'd said to her to provoke such hostility, so it was evident to them that she was doing this. To make matters worse she hung around with another male colleague and he made off color jokes all the time and she didn't care and even thought he was funny! After one particularly unfair diatribe by her directed at me, I shrugged and simply said "If you took the time to get to know me, you would realize that I'm probably the least sexist guy you're likely to meet. I then left the room.
I met her a few years later and she had changed and talked to me nicely and civilly and we departed on much better terms. Maybe she realized I was right and regretted her former behavior. I don't know, and I didn't particularly care either. So I have some idea what its like to be tarred by a brush I did not deserve.
Now once again I have written a long post, but for the reason that I don't want you to feel excluded here, and were it in my power I would do everything to make you feel included and not feel demonized because of your gender. But my feelings are, that like the girl I mentioned above, you are projecting your bad experiences of male gamers in your past on all guys here.
It cuts both ways and I agree with 8th Dwarf that it's not fair to us to be constantly labeled in such a way as you do not really know any of us. But I agree with him. Point us to specific posts here that you say were bad and we'll deal with them. It's in none of our best interests to deter women from playing PF, because women have enriched the gaming experience for us all. I wouldn't want to go back to the games I played in the 70's where only adolescent guys would play.
Please try to give us a chance... Mark
Besides, I'm sure we can have other things to talk about ... like:
The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster
The awesomeness that is Nathan Fillion in Firefly and Castle
Tolkien
Can't we all just pop open a cold one and drink around a bonfire. Some of us might have more redeeming qualities than just a blanket accussationary statement that we're all predators for boobies.
Okay, maybe it's just me. :P
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Oh? Have you read this thread? It's the poster child for what I've been talking about here. There's an awful lot of dismissal and contempt aimed at women (and men) who speak up about their discomfort or disagreement with the desire for still more cheesecake fantasy art. (No, I'm not saying that there should be NO cheesecake-- just that there's already SO much of it that I'm not sure I see the need to demand MORE.) That's one of several such threads. No, they're not AS common here as they are elsewhere, but they're common enough to give me the impression that this community isn't as open and accepting-- at least about these issues-- as it might be about other issues.
Yes, I have read this thread and if you go back and read again you'll see the comments I made about it too. I also got flamed by a guy called Hexcalibur. But he can flame me all he likes. I stand by my original post there.
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Besides, I'm sure we can have other things to talk about ... like:
The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster
The awesomeness that is Nathan Fillion in Firefly and Castle
TolkienCan't we all just pop open a cold one and drink around a bonfire. Some of us might have more redeeming qualities than just a blanket accussationary statement that we're all predators for boobies.
Okay, maybe it's just me. :P
** spoiler omitted **
Nathan Fillion rocks. Sad Fox dumped the series after season 1.
I'll drink around the bonfire and I hope Lindisty will too.
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I had one particular game where a bunch of strangers met at a local gaming store. I knew a couple of people there, including the store owner / DM, from my involvment in the gaming community (actually, the guy that owns the Gaming Paper concept - cool guy, good DM!) there. In the three sessions we had for that monthly gaming meetup, an average of 12 players showed up per session. The DM was running Rise of Runelords, and managed to keep it moving right along and engaging for this large group - like I said, he was good.
There was the usual mash of random people, you expect that you won't be best buds with everyone you meet at something like this.
There was one guy...he was the personification of every negative gamer stereotype there is. Bad hygiene, bad social graces, rude behavior. I was the only woman at the first session, and this guy latched onto me. He had to sit next to me, had to the explain the rules to the girl (incorrectly! gah! I am an engineer! Precision is important!), had a female character that shot a bow because "girls can't fight" (My character was female paladin. Heh). The first words he shouted once the game started was "Where's the brothel?!? I want to go to the brothel!?! My character's a lesbian, and she wants to work at the brothel!" Then he would turn and leer at me.
*sigh*
There were at least 10 other gamers there. None of these guys were jerks. None of these guys would probably have been any sort of problem. But this one guy made this game intensely uncomfortable for me - specifically because I was a woman. Also, none of the guys spoke up. I asked him to stop, and he took it as a challenge. Nobody else said a word. Some came up to me afterwards and told me he was a jerk and nobody liked him....but nobody else spoke up.
At subsequent sessions I would arrive early and some of the guys would willingly allow me to switch seats with them to have a "buffer" zone between me and this guy - I didn't want to sit near enough to him or across the table from him, so I could avoid his attention as much as possible - but again, when he would get disruptive (and he was generally disruptive, I was his favorite target when I was around, but he would be annoying no matter what), but again, tellingly, nobody said anything to him.
When a woman talks on a gaming forum about her bad experiences, I see a lot of guys saying "I've never seen that" or "You must be imagining it" or "Stop painting all men with the same brush as the jerks you game with!" or "If I saw something like that, I'd punch the guy in the face."
In reality, I've had a friend I knew and trusted warn me when I came to play at game at his place that one of his friends was often crass and rude to women purposefully (He believed women liked it but were prevented from admitting it by oppressive puritanical societal norms), but he was really a nice guy and I should give him a chance. I've called out jerks during a game and had the other guys at the table say "Oh, he's just joking." I've had the other guys at the table laugh about a crude suggestion made about what my character should do - but then afterward when they're not around the other guys they'll explain it wasn't a fair comment and they would never have said something like that to me.
So, no, every guy isn't a jerk. Sometimes one idiot ruins a game for a bunch of other people. But I would ask the guys here to stop and think - if someone pulls a nasty move or comment on a woman in your game - will you ask them to stop? Ignore it and hope there's no "drama"? Or will you laugh along to be part of the group of guys?
I SAW WHAT YOU DID THERE.There's three women and 5 men in the group I currently play with.
You know what would make a good "motivational" poster? Jenny Poisson holding up her character sheet, with the word "Gamer" underneath. I think that'd make the point very succinctly, bust all the stereotypes.
ROTFLMAO!
In 1999 I asked my fiance if she would like to create an AD&D character. She's still playing that same character - updated to Pathfinder, of course - (and others) today. She's also my partner in 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming, does a lot of our writing, some of our editing, all of our interior layout, and keeps the books, but now I'm digressing.
At our local game club (the Sandbaggers Game Club, if you are in Great Falls, Montana...), we have 4 females (including my wife) who are regular members, and about another 5 or 6 who are there less often. Guys still outnumber them about 3 to 1, though.
In the 33 years I've been gaming, I've had varying number of females in my my gaming groups, with varying degrees of interest. Today, there are more and more female gamers, and they are (at least in the circles I game in) far less of a curiosity and far more of the norm, even if fewer in number than male gamers.
Heck, for 4 Winds alone, in addition to my wife, two of our writing contributors and four of our artists are female, and all are gamers as well.
Robert
4WFG
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Quite frankly, Lindisty, you come across as someone who is absolutely determined to find sexism here. And if you approach a situation with that kind of attitude, you're going to find the problem that you're so determined to find.
I know that there will be those that feel that I shouldn't be allowed to have the opinion I'm about to express because I have a pair of testicles, but I'm going to share it anyway: Radical feminists like you come across as do far more to hurt what should be the actual goal of feminism than they could ever do to help it. I"m not alone in that opinion either, I have had many friends (both male and female) who have agreed with me on that. A certain amount of being PC is good, but it's easy to take it WAY too far.
Feel free to flag this post, but I believe that it needed to be said, and everyone else was tiptoeing around it.
Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.
I give up. You will twist my words no matter what I say.
Quite frankly, Lindisty, you come across as someone who is absolutely determined to find sexism here. And if you approach a situation with that kind of attitude, you're going to find the problem that you're so determined to find.
I know that there will be those that feel that I shouldn't be allowed to have the opinion I'm about to express because I have a pair of testicles, but I'm going to share it anyway: Radical feminists like you come across as do far more to hurt what should be the actual goal of feminism than they could ever do to help it. I"m not alone in that opinion either, I have had many friends (both male and female) who have agreed with me on that. A certain amount of being PC is good, but it's easy to take it WAY too far.
Feel free to flag this post, but I believe that it needed to be said, and everyone else was tiptoeing around it.
Ah yes, observing that I'm uncomfortable with SOME threads on these boards, and that I've seen SOME sexist behavior here means that I'm determined to find sexism here and that I think everyone here is sexist. It's nice to have you tell me what I think. I had no idea I thought that until you pointed it out to me and I can't tell you how grateful I am to have been educated so kindly in my own thought processes. Clearly I was too dumb to realize it before.
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I can't tell you what you think, but I can tell you how you come across to me, and likely to many others as well. As has been pointed out, the very vagueness of your comments makes it look like you are trying to condemn everyone. Furthermore, I took a look at your posting history before posting my last post, hoping to find that I was wrong and this was a rather isolated instance. Instead, my opinion was merely reinforced.
May I suggest that everyone take a step back from this thread, take a few deep breaths, and then go on from there? It seems that people are getting quite defensive/annoyed/insulted/fill-in-your-favorite-negative-adjective-here.
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Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.
I'm sorry, was this directed at me?
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May I suggest that everyone take a step back from this thread, take a few deep breaths, and then go on from there? It seems that people are getting quite defensive/annoyed/insulted/fill-in-your-favorite-negative-adjective-here.
Wise words Lathiira. We should. I really wish Lindisty could feel more comfortable with us here. Negative experiences affect people in different ways, and I'm not condemning her for her feelings in this matter as the thread she alluded to was a tad off-color IMHO, even if people insist it was a joke thread.
I can also understand why people feel defensive though. I certainly don't feel insulted by her at all. I'm secure enough in myself not to take things too personally.
But we should do our best to accommodate her feelings as best we can, though in the end it is up to her whether she decides to remain with us or move on to pastures new. Personally I hope she will remain and we can all discuss other stuff than this.
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Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.I'm sorry, was this directed at me?
I think it was aimed at Lindisty but I might be wrong.
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I had one particular game where a bunch of strangers met at a local gaming store. I knew a couple of people there, including the store owner / DM, from my involvment in the gaming community (actually, the guy that owns the Gaming Paper concept - cool guy, good DM!) there. In the three sessions we had for that monthly gaming meetup, an average of 12 players showed up per session. The DM was running Rise of Runelords, and managed to keep it moving right along and engaging for this large group - like I said, he was good.
There was the usual mash of random people, you expect that you won't be best buds with everyone you meet at something like this.
There was one guy...he was the personification of every negative gamer stereotype there is. Bad hygiene, bad social graces, rude behavior. I was the only woman at the first session, and this guy latched onto me. He had to sit next to me, had to the explain the rules to the girl (incorrectly! gah! I am an engineer! Precision is important!), had a female character that shot a bow because "girls can't fight" (My character was female paladin. Heh). The first words he shouted once the game started was "Where's the brothel?!? I want to go to the brothel!?! My character's a lesbian, and she wants to work at the brothel!" Then he would turn and leer at me.
*sigh*
There were at least 10 other gamers there. None of these guys were jerks. None of these guys would probably have been any sort of problem. But this one guy made this game intensely uncomfortable for me - specifically because I was a woman. Also, none of the guys spoke up. I asked him to stop, and he took it as a challenge. Nobody else said a word. Some came up to me afterwards and told me he was a jerk and nobody liked him....but nobody else spoke up.
At subsequent sessions I would arrive early and some of the guys would willingly allow me to switch seats with them to have a "buffer" zone between me and this guy - I didn't want to sit near enough to him or across the table from...
Damn, sounds like someone that just dropped out of your current Sunday game (thank goodness). Heck, I might even rearrange my Sundays to rejoin y'all now that he's gone ;)
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Damn, sounds like someone that just dropped out of your current Sunday game (thank goodness). Heck, I might even rearrange my Sundays to rejoin y'all now that he's gone ;)
Lol. No, that person behaved himself in public venues. I wouldn't be comfortable playing in a private home where he was in the group, and I didn't invite him to the games I host at my place because I didn't want him knowing where I live, but while he didn't fit in our group and was sometimes annoying, he wasn't anything like this other dude.
That's one reason I really like games played at local gaming stores - they give everyone a relatively safe venue to meet other gamers in the community. Lots of the people you meet may not fit into your gaming style - but you can find people that like to game the same way you do, and you can screen people before allowing them into your home.
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Damn, sounds like someone that just dropped out of your current Sunday game (thank goodness). Heck, I might even rearrange my Sundays to rejoin y'all now that he's gone ;)Lol. No, that person behaved himself in public venues. I wouldn't be comfortable playing in a private home where he was in the group, and I didn't invite him to the games I host at my place because I didn't want him knowing where I live, but while he didn't fit in our group and was sometimes annoying, he wasn't anything like this other dude.
That's one reason I really like games played at local gaming stores - they give everyone a relatively safe venue to meet other gamers in the community. Lots of the people you meet may not fit into your gaming style - but you can find people that like to game the same way you do, and you can screen people before allowing them into your home.
I usually set up an interview or some kind of social meeting (bar, coffee shop) to figure out if I can stand to be around someone. Our dude failed, miserably. I have trouble gaming with someone I couldn't go to dinner or out for a drink with. Gaming time is too precious, and too much of an escape from my day to day troubles to allow someone I actively loathe in that part of my life.
He was actually the reason I allowed my boss to put me on Sundays and cut my gaming in half, btw. A situation that will be soon remedied, I hope. :)
Honestly, though, Jess, I'm surprised you put up with my shenanigans sometimes! ;)
Honestly, though, Jess, I'm surprised you put up with my shenanigans sometimes! ;)
Charisma isn't one of your dump stats, bro. ;)
Is this a bad time to mention my patented all-girl gaming monthly group? I've had an all girl gaming group running semi-regularly since college, and it's always been my most successful group. How they put up with me, I have no idea.
Ah yes, observing that I'm uncomfortable with SOME threads on these boards, and that I've seen SOME sexist behavior here means that I'm determined to find sexism here and that I think everyone here is sexist.
First off, that's not what Kthulhu said. He said that if you look for something long enough, you'll find it, no matter how rare or common it might be.
Second, you do realize that your profile shows approximately your last 50 posts and that the search function returns older ones right? Even ignoring your posts in this thread, from what I've read I'm inclined to agree with Kthulhu — it looks to me like you're on a witch hunt for sexists and that camaraderie isn't as high a priority.
I did ask you some questions based on my observations about your posts. You are very defensive or at least hypersensitive to sexism real or imagined, and appear to expect to find it, instead of thinking, give each guy the benefit of the doubt until he actually proves himself beyond doubt that he's a bloody wanker and not worth the time of day.
Can you explain to me how pointing out that I've been occasionally uncomfortable with some of the threads on the boards because of the way they've dealt with issues of gender in gaming, and that some of those threads have made me hesitate about joining into the conversations here is the same thing as expecting every male on the forum to be a sexist jerk? I don't see those as being at all the same thing.
I've said, repeatedly, that I think these boards are less prone to the kind of sexist behavior I've run into elsewhere in gaming. And yet I'm accused of condemning every person on the forums for being sexist. I'm utterly baffled by that interpretation of what I've said.
I've been told that I need to provide specific examples, but when I point to a specific example, I'm told it's against the rules to link to other threads, and that that thread was a joke anyway and I should 'get a sense of humor'.
So... okay... I understand that the thread in question may have been intended as a joke. As a private joke between friends, I'd say it's none of my business, and because I was not really familiar with any of the posters at the time, I made no comment when it originated. But it was a public post on a public web forum which is claimed to be an open and accepting community. And I witnessed the vicious reactions to those (some of whom I'd assume were actually valued members of the community) who said, "Hey, this is not cool" in that thread. Frankly, it wouldn't have mattered to me if the thread was about gender, race, or any other touchy subject. My discomfort was at least as much about the way people who expressed a dissenting view were treated as it was about the fact that the topic was a gender issue.
When a woman talks on a gaming forum about her bad experiences, I see a lot of guys saying "I've never seen that" or "You must be imagining it" or "Stop painting all men with the same brush as the jerks you game with!" or "If I saw something like that, I'd punch the guy in the face."
In reality, I've had a friend I knew and trusted warn me when I came to play at game at his place that one of his friends was often crass and rude to women purposefully (He believed women liked it but were prevented from admitting it by oppressive puritanical societal norms), but he was really a nice guy and I should give him a chance. I've called out jerks during a game and had the other guys at the table say "Oh, he's just joking." I've had the other guys at the table laugh about a crude suggestion made about what my character should do - but then afterward when they're not around the other guys they'll explain it wasn't a fair comment and they would never have said something like that to me.
So, no, every guy isn't a jerk. Sometimes one idiot ruins a game for a bunch of other people. But I would ask the guys here to stop and think - if someone pulls a nasty move or comment on a woman in your game - will you ask them to stop? Ignore it and hope there's no "drama"? Or will you laugh along to be part of the group of guys?
Thank you. This is exactly what I've been talking about, illustrated more coherently than I've managed, apparently.
Let me say this in caps to be sure it isn't missed: I UNDERSTAND THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THESE FORUMS PROBABLY AREN'T SEXIST. I have never, in any of my posts, said that I think all-- or even most-- men here are sexist. Nor have I ever thought such a thing.
However, when sexist comments, etc. are made and no one says 'Hey, that's not cool', it makes it look, from the outside, as though the community approves of that sexism. That appearance of accepting sexism is exacerbated when someone does speak up and is dismissed or even attacked for doing so.
I understand that it's difficult to be told that the environment within your social group may be uncomfortable for someone. I've been on the receiving end of that before, and I've felt the kneejerk desire to dismiss the person's discomfort as being unreasonable. I can see that happening here, at least in some cases, and I think it's reached the point where it's useless for me to say anything more.
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May I suggest that everyone take a step back from this thread, take a few deep breaths, and then go on from there? It seems that people are getting quite defensive/annoyed/insulted/fill-in-your-favorite-negative-adjective-here.
Going a step further, I think this thread should be left cold. We're at the point where men are blaming women for exhibiting female behaviour, and women are blaming men for exhibiting male behaviour, both of which are just stupid.
News Flash!: When men are with a group of men laughing, they're extremely likely to laugh along, even if they feel bad about it later.
This just in!!: When women feel demeaned or ostricized, they will react in an emotionally charged way.
Seriously, folks, this is going nowhere.
We got two girls at our table. Also a gay guy and a transverstite (the latter being myself)
So it's completely normal to me.
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Hi Jess. I totally agree with you about that "one bad apple ruining the bunch" - I had the same experience once at a convention. Some guy wanted to play "the chick" and he had the most horrendous "girl voice" that he'd use to convey that he was playing a woman. Normally I'd applaud someone trying to roleplay, but in this case, it was like the drag show in "South Pacific" - 100% unconvincing and a complete farce. Maybe he seriously did think he was RuPaul's gift to acting, but since I couldn't be sure of that, and since no one else was doing funny voices, I figured it was his way of passively aggravating me. I didn't leave only because I wanted to make a point - "I'm here, I have estrogen, get used to it!" It's like integration - you don't win the fight (usually) by walking away from the table (though sometimes that is neccessary too). You sit down at the lunch counter and keep your eyes on the prize! I focused on the other players who were behaving normally and not on him.
I agree that conventions and game-shop gaming is great because you get to meet new people and screen out the jerks.
For teen girls, I think it's a little more difficult - lots of 'em, especially "geeky" girls, have low self esteem. If I'd been a teen when I'd sat at that table, I don't think I'd have stuck around or even wanted to game at the rest of the con.
If the other guys at the table had suggested, "Ya know, why don't you play a guy this session" to that one dude, it would have gone a long way towards making me feel better about being at that game.
I think it was aimed at Lindisty but I might be wrong.Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.I'm sorry, was this directed at me?
It was aimed at women in general. Assertiveness is valuable in all facets of life, including the gaming table, and these business classes tailored for women are great.
Nobody should have to put up with bigotry. Allowing it to continue unchallenged is enabling the behaviour. Assertiveness training teaches how to speak up in an authoritative yet nonagressive manner. Negotiation skills are also useful in dealing with jerks everywhere. Change the world, people!
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Threeshades: I TOTALLY did not mean any disrespect to you by my RuPaul comment. One of the nicest, most level-headed people I ever met is cross-gender. I only meant that remark about one person at one table, who did not seem to be playing cross-gender in a way that was respectful, but was doing it on purpose to annoy me.
edit: Right on, Treppa! *fist bump*
Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.
If this is directed at me, then I want to thank you for the belly-laugh.
Given the preponderance of dismissive responses to me on this thread, I suspect that many of your fellow posters here would say that I'm too assertive.
The irony is absolutely delicious. :)
Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.I'm sorry, was this directed at me?
You kidding? If you can manage HD, you can probably teach one of these classes.
Threeshades: I TOTALLY did not mean any disrespect to you by my RuPaul comment. One of the nicest, most level-headed people I ever met is cross-gender. I only meant that remark about one person at one table, who did not seem to be playing cross-gender in a way that was respectful, but was doing it on purpose to annoy me.
edit: Right on, Treppa! *fist bump*
No offense taken, don't worry. I can completely understand that.