I believe I've said this before, but it really, really gets on my nerves that even the geeks at my school think it awkward or funny or at best mildly surprising to find a girl playing a fantasy RPG. Anyone else have this problem?
I've not experienced this, but I could understand how someone might experience it. My perception of Gencon attendees is that 95% of them fall into the category of: white male, age 15-40. Or to geek-up that psudo-statistic, you have to roll a "20" to find a random person outside that group.
Let the geeks know that you are annoyed by their comments, or find another group. Not all groups will react the same way. My own group is adding it's second woman player the next time we play, so I can attest that there is at least 1 group that finds it normal.
As said several times above, the game played may have a lot to do with the ratio of men to women, and therefore the percption of women gamers. When I was playing Vampire: The Masquerade (tabletop and LARP), roughly 30% of the players I knew were women.
As an avid gamer, and the proud father of a newborn baby girl, I'll be doing my best to make the hobby more gender neutral. Unfortunately, it's going to be a couple years before I can give my daughter dice (choking hazard).
Four years later, I DM a game with one girl and two guys. Both games I currently play in are made up of old guys (youngest being 30) and me.
OLD!?!?
[sarcasm] Let me get my cane and my teeth, and I'll teach you young whipper-snappers a thing or two about gaming. In my day, we gamed up hill, both ways. I'd go on, but it's time for my nap.[/sarcasm]
Perhaps it's time to start a thread about how us "old as dirt" thirtysomethings are perceived.
Wow. People think I'm old. When the heck did that happen?
|
Four years later, I DM a game with one girl and two guys. Both games I currently play in are made up of old guys (youngest being 30) and me.
OLD!?!?
[sarcasm] Let me get my cane and my teeth, and I'll teach you young whipper-snappers a thing or two about gaming. In my day, we gamed up hill, both ways. I'd go on, but it's time for my nap.[/sarcasm]
Perhaps it's time to start a thread about how us "old as dirt" thirtysomethings are perceived.
Wow. People think I'm old. When the heck did that happen?
So when should we start setting up the Paizo Retirement Community?
So, no, every guy isn't a jerk. Sometimes one idiot ruins a game for a bunch of other people. But I would ask the guys here to stop and think - if someone pulls a nasty move or comment on a woman in your game - will you ask them to stop? Ignore it and hope there's no "drama"? Or will you laugh along to be part of the group of guys?
I'd put a stop to it. And if the player didn't stop, I'd kick them out of the game. I wouldn't care if it was a free game at a game store or a paid game at Gen Con. I wouldn't care if it were a $100 charity event sponsored by Paizo and kicking them out made me look like a big meanie: there are some things people don't do at my table, I don't care who you are, and if you don't stop after I've warned you about it, you're out.
Wow. People think I'm old. When the heck did that happen?
In my case: when my friends started telling me I was on the 'Dark Side of Thirty'... ;D
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
GIT OFF MAH LAWN!
|
So, no, every guy isn't a jerk. Sometimes one idiot ruins a game for a bunch of other people. But I would ask the guys here to stop and think - if someone pulls a nasty move or comment on a woman in your game - will you ask them to stop? Ignore it and hope there's no "drama"? Or will you laugh along to be part of the group of guys?
This is sound advice, but it should be expanded upon to include everyone. No man should have to put up with sexism at the table either, so making fun of a person's sexual orientation or other things along these lines is right-out IMO. I think a lot of the Onus is on GMs at the least to make their game as comfortable as possible for the people they want to game with.
|
This is sound advice, but it should be expanded upon to include everyone. No man should have to put up with sexism at the table either, so making fun of a person's sexual orientation or other things along these lines is right-out IMO. I think a lot of the Onus is on GMs at the least to make their game as comfortable as possible for the people they want to game with.
No exclusion was meant, just sticking with the topic of the thread, is all.
|
|
No exclusion was meant, just sticking with the topic of the thread, is all.
Not a problem for me, I just want to make it clear that there is an issue with men not wanting to bring up the subject of sexism directed at them. It cuts both ways. Women can be sexist toward men and themselves, men can be sexist toward woman and themselves.
No exclusion was meant, just sticking with the topic of the thread, is all.Not a problem for me, I just want to make it clear that there is an issue with men not wanting to bring up the subject of sexism directed at them. It cuts both ways. Women can be sexist toward men and themselves, men can be sexist toward woman and themselves.
I find your alias sexist.
P.S. I'm already on her list. :P
|
|
So... okay... I understand that the thread in question may have been intended as a joke. As a private joke between friends, I'd say it's none of my business, and because I was not really familiar with any of the posters at the time, I made no comment when it originated. But it was a public post on a public web forum which is claimed to be an open and accepting community. And I witnessed the vicious reactions to those (some of whom I'd assume were actually valued members of the community) who said, "Hey, this is not cool" in that thread.
Can you explain to me how pointing out that I've been occasionally uncomfortable with some of the threads on the boards because of the way they've dealt with issues of gender in gaming, and that some of those threads have made me hesitate about joining into the conversations here is the same thing as expecting every male on the forum to be a sexist jerk? I don't see those as being at all the same thing.I've been told that I need to provide specific examples, but when I point to a specific example, I'm told it's against the rules to link to other threads, and that that thread was a joke anyway and I should 'get a sense of humor'.
Did you actually bother to read what I wrote. I went to the thread in question and made a point of saying that joke or no joke that it was off color, and not particularly amusing. You might also have noted I got flamed by a dude who told me to effectively to get lost. Did I get lost? No I told him where to get off and that my position stands.
I don't want my daughter exposed to negative role models for women either and I think Paizo did a great job of presenting empowered female characters in the PF Core Rulebook. Did you see the Paladin. I wouldn't want to be evil and end up on the wrong side of her sword
I've said, repeatedly, that I think these boards are less prone to the kind of sexist behavior I've run into elsewhere in gaming. And yet I'm accused of condemning every person on the forums for being sexist. I'm utterly baffled by that interpretation of what I've said.
But you have made your point repeatedly and I think that's the issue here. Most of us have got the message, and in balance are agreeing with the essence of what you are saying. Why not just accept us at face value, accept we're not perfect and that in all forums you'll get the odd jerk hanging round.
I mean let it go, whether you admit it you're coming across rather angry, but it isn't going anywhere and to be quite honest with you I would prefer to hear about your take on being a GM and your role-playing game experiences. I mean you run a gender balanced campaign and that interests me as I would love to hear about how you achieve this as I too would prefer to run such a campaign more effectively myself. Give us a chance and ignore the freaks. The vast majority of people here have been very supportive and friendly and will answer any question you have about RPGs, which is really why a lot of us are here.
Many regards... Mark
There were at least 10 other gamers there. None of these guys were jerks. None of these guys would probably have been any sort of problem. But this one guy made this game intensely uncomfortable for me - specifically because I was a woman. Also, none of the guys spoke up. I asked him to stop, and he took it as a challenge. Nobody else said a word. Some came up to me afterwards and told me he was a jerk and nobody liked him....but nobody else spoke up.
Jess I can't justify why no one spoke up, but I think I can partially explain it. In my experience, guys who game (including myself) tend to have or have had some sort of issue... whether it's low self esteem, poorer than they should be social skills, too introverted or too introspective, too smart or just whatever it takes, there's usually something a little "off" about us; not enough to make us complete social rejects or pariahs or even bad people, but we're not quite the norm either.
Anyways most of the time it's minor, and one of the great advantages of gaming is that it allows guys like this (us) to have a social circle and an activity that they (we) can bond through. Fortunately or unfortunately a side effect of that is we tend to be more accepting of other people's quirks and for the most part try to avoid conflict unless we're really aggravated. Hence the reason the guy you're talking about wasn't initially forcibly booted by the other guys who didn't like him but did tolerate him.
Now add you to the mix, on the extremely unlikely chance that you hadn't figured it out, your particular troll got off on your reaction to him, but think about the reason he did. It was because that was the only way he could get any reaction from a woman. His life was literally that sad that he had to resort to the tactics of the kids who want attention from the teacher so they misbehave. Your disgust was better than your apathy in his eyes.
So where does that leave the guys sitting around the table?
If they speak up they risk violating that unspoken code of tolerance for others and most people aren't confident enough in themselves to start a confrontation, let alone most male gamers (at least against another real person). On another level most of them wouldn't step in for a male friend in a minor conflict, so inspite of the game including knights, they're unsure whether they should be "white knighting" for another player who just happens to be female. That in turn leads to questions about jockeying for social position with you and trying to avoid conflict with other guys who might also have been interested in you but hadn't acted on it.
Lastly they're also unsure whether you want them to or not(especially if they don't know you.) There're so many mixed messages about how to treat women these days that a lot of less confident guys tend to react by doing nothing; doing nothing of course avoids doing something wrong even if it is at the expense of not doing something right. And lets be honest, it's not hard to imagine a girl turning on the guy who was trying to help her, because she sees it as disrespectful that he thinks she can't handle her own fights.
So like I said, it's not a justification, but hopefully it helps explain why it happened the way it did.
Man, people are getting worked up in this thread. I blame Urizen, and volunteer to keep him under supervision. I guess it's hard for people to hear criticism if they feel like they are under some kind of judgment, but the more each can listen to each, the better.
Lindisty,
I hope that you will find this community welcoming and find your place here. While there are always a few people one doesn't get along with, and anyone can be annoying from time-to-time, as I'm sure I can be, there are lots of good people here that have many good qualities. Even Urizen.
Peace,
M.
Threeshades: I TOTALLY did not mean any disrespect to you by my RuPaul comment. One of the nicest, most level-headed people I ever met is cross-gender. I only meant that remark about one person at one table, who did not seem to be playing cross-gender in a way that was respectful, but was doing it on purpose to annoy me.
edit: Right on, Treppa! *fist bump*
No offense taken, don't worry. I can actually understand what you mean very well.
(if I already posted this sorry, I tried to submit a comment like this but it didn't seem to show up for me, so I'm just posting it again)
Don't wait to be rescued. Speak up for yourself. If you are not comfortable doing it, learn how. Fast. You can hardly do anything more important for your life.If this is directed at me, then I want to thank you for the belly-laugh.
Given the preponderance of dismissive responses to me on this thread, I suspect that many of your fellow posters here would say that I'm too assertive.
The irony is absolutely delicious. :)
I am not flaming you I am asking you NOT to GENERSALISE as you are being offensive to ME - You did it again a few posts with the word PROBABLY - as a tool to insinuate doubt and to paper over your previous labelling of people by gender.
The majority of men aren't Sexist.
I can give you an analogy to demonstrate why I find it offensive. What would you say If I said "Most people of race X PROBABLY aren't alcoholics".
Its rude and your statement is sexism by stealth.
Now I am genuinely sad that you have had terrible experiences role playing.
You must have had some positive experiences or you wouldn't be on the boards.
Now addressing why some men you have played with may not have stood up for you.
1. Do they know you? People are reluctant to get involved in other peoples issues.
2. Older men think, what if they stood up for you and you went to town on them for being part of the patriarchy. They don't know how you will react it could just make the situation worse. They may feel that they need your permission to step in. Ask for help when dealing with the situation.
Funny story, my wife (she was my girlfriend at the time and the daughter of a mechanic) and her friend had broken down outside of town (it was in the time before mobile phones (I am that old)), people kept driving past. Finally a guy pulled in he was social studies lecturer from our uni. He said "excuse me I do apologise, I do not in any way want to appear as if I am making assumptions about your gender and your mechanical ability but it appears that you are having a problem, can I help." Obviously he had no idea what was wrong but gave them a lift to the garage.
My girlfriend asked me later if it was the way a lot of men thought. I said that of the people driving past 50% would be women so that kinda rules that out. I said he was an exception and that most people are lazy arsed bastards too rapped up in their own crap to care what's going on around them.
As I get older I am beginning to see the reason behind the lecturers reluctance.
3. Young men these days are constantly being told in the media that women can sort their own problems out... That women are just as strong and capable as they are and they don't need help. So it becomes your problem.
4. The GM is the REFEREE approach them with in game problems, - If necessary remind them that they must take action as it is their Job.
Have a quiet word with the GM first.... don't kick off and make it a public row its a good way for people to dig in and make a fight of it.
5. The other players are just that other players some of them may feel that they don't have the authority to take a stand.
I will ask you this question when was the last time YOU stepped in on behalf of somebody of the opposite gender?
|
@Tree: Your earlier post came through just fine. I could read it. I don't know why you couldn't. *shrugs* Sometimes the messageboards have a delay.
Anyway, I am glad you weren't offended by my comment. :)
Hmm...Threeshades. I read that as "Treeshades" first... I guess I just associate shade with trees.
Did you actually bother to read what I wrote. I went to the thread in question and made a point of saying that joke or no joke that it was off color, and not particularly amusing. You might also have noted I got flamed by a dude who told me to effectively to get lost. Did I get lost? No I told him where to get off and that my position stands.
I did see that, yes, and I should have acknowledged that you did that. I apologize for not making it clear that I in no way view your contributions, to this thread or that one, as an example of dismissive response. You personally have been thoughtful and reasonable in the discussion.
I don't want my daughter exposed to negative role models for women either and I think Paizo did a great job of presenting empowered female characters in the PF Core Rulebook. Did you see the Paladin. I wouldn't want to be evil and end up on the wrong side of her sword
Seelah is awesome! She's probably my favorite iconic. I never had any desire to play a paladin until I saw her, and then saw the PFRPG versions of the half-orc and the paladin class. And now I have a half-orc paladin running around in my head that I can't actually play because our group has switched over to 4E and the character just doesn't work the way I want it to under that ruleset. :P
But you have made your point repeatedly and I think that's the issue here. Most of us have got the message, and in balance are agreeing with the essence of what you are saying. Why not just accept us at face value, accept we're not perfect and that in all forums you'll get the odd jerk hanging round.
To be fair, I've made the point repeatedly in response to a few folks (none of whom are you) who have made it sound like it's all in my head and no sexism exists here. But it does-- sometimes. And when it happens, there's a pretty serious backlash toward people who object to it, from what I've seen. As you've experienced yourself, in your comment on the other thread, no?
I mean you run a gender balanced campaign and that interests me as I would love to hear about how you achieve this as I too would prefer to run such a campaign more effectively myself. Give us a chance and ignore the freaks. The vast majority of people here have been very supportive and friendly and will answer any question you have about RPGs, which is really why a lot of us are here.
Well, my campaign is on hiatus at the moment, and probably will be for a while yet, but the campaign wiki is here if you want to know more about the setting. It's fairly rudimentary, as I'm a 'make it up as I go along' sort of DM, but there's enough there to give an idea of what the game is like. I don't think I'd attempt to gender balance a campaign in a published campaign setting, because the gender disparity amongst named NPCs in published materials tends to be lopsided enough that balancing it would require as much work in editing and revising setting history as it does to build from the ground up.
In terms of world-building, the gender balance thing a matter of paying attention to named NPCs and making sure that I'm placing women in positions of power at a roughly equal ratio to men. I'm not completely compulsive about it in the sense of maintaining exact counts all the time in every adventure, but I assess it every so often and adjust as necessary to keep things relatively equal. I fall down a little when it comes to unnamed 'mooks' who are fighting the party, because it's awfully hard not to use 'he' as the default pronoun in battles.
Interestingly, my players don't seem to have noticed what I'm doing. I haven't pointed it out to them directly, though. The only comment it's gotten is that the lone male in the group said once that he sometimes feels a little strange in battles when he's speaking from the point of view of his character and describes himself attacking a female opponent. Which made me laugh, because he's our other DM, and he's never had any compunction about describing the villains attacking his wife's character or my character. :)
I am not flaming you I am asking you NOT to GENERSALISE as you are being offensive to ME - You did it again a few posts with the word PROBABLY - as a tool to insinuate doubt and to paper over your previous labelling of people by gender.
The majority of men aren't Sexist.
I have never, here or anywhere else, claimed that the majority of men are sexist. I have gone out of my way to NOT generalize, and to use words like 'some', and 'a few'. I don't know what dictionary you use, but in mine, 'some' and 'a majority' have different meanings.
Now addressing why some men you have played with may not have stood up for you.
For what it's worth, I don't expect anyone to stand up FOR me. What I expect is to be respected when I stand up for myself. If, in a situation where a social environment is uncomfortable for me and I express it, and someone who is part of the 'in group' calls his or her community members out on their behavior, I think better of that person, but I don't expect anyone to protect me.
4. The GM is the REFEREE approach them with in game problems, - If necessary remind them that they must take action as it is their Job. Have a quiet word with the GM first.... don't kick off and make it a public row its a good way for people to dig in and make a fight of it.
In my current group, this is exactly what I'd do-- and in fact did, when the DM presented a storyline in which he clearly expected my character to disguise herself as a prostitute. Stepping out of character with a "Dude?! What were you thinking?? This is not gonna happen, so you'd better have alternate avenues of success in mind for this mission" was enough to fix that.
However, in the most appalling case I experienced, the DM was an active contributor to the problem, and in fact, started the whole 'sexual favors for magic items' meme. So, yes, ideally one would have a DM who would quash such behavior, it doesn't always work that way.
I will ask you this question when was the last time YOU stepped in on behalf of somebody of the opposite gender?
A couple of weeks ago, when a coworker and dear friend of mine was accused of sexual harassment, in fact.
Man, people are getting worked up in this thread. I blame Urizen, and volunteer to keep him under supervision. I guess it's hard for people to hear criticism if they feel like they are under some kind of judgment, but the more each can listen to each, the better.
Lindisty,
I hope that you will find this community welcoming and find your place here. While there are always a few people one doesn't get along with, and anyone can be annoying from time-to-time, as I'm sure I can be, there are lots of good people here that have many good qualities. Even Urizen.
Peace,
M.
Urizen seems like good folk to me, but maybe that means my judgment is questionable, too. ;)
And thank you, Mairkurion. It's kind of you to welcome me, in spite of the kerfluffle here.
Urizen seems like good folk to me, but maybe that means my judgment is questionable, too. ;)
And thank you, Mairkurion. It's kind of you to welcome me, in spite of the kerfluffle here.
Lindisty, I just have a quick question for you. Have you considered joining a PbP here at Paizo? I think it would be fun for you.
Lindisty: you're quite welcome.
Meh. Kerfuffles happen. For what my experience here counts, somebody can get on your nerves one day, and be a great bud the next -- partially a product of the vagaries of online communication. It's over time that you learn who just has feet of clay (all of us) and who are the consistently troubled souls -- a minority IMO. My guess (and hope) is you'll find most threads mostly fun as time goes by. Also, you'll pick up on key words that are your own signal to avoid. I know I've IDed mine... now if I can just be sensible.
Urizen's just a little salty. I like to give him a hard time, as he does me.
Or key numbers... or key names/avatars. Hee-hee.
Lindisty, I just have a quick question for you. Have you considered joining a PbP here at Paizo? I think it would be fun for you.
No, that's not something I've considered, because life is busy enough that I'm hard pressed to fit in time for my regular gaming group on a consistent basis. But my usual group is taking a break for the summer due to travel schedules and time commitment issues, so maybe I should consider a PbP, at least in the short term...
Lindisty, I just have a quick question for you. Have you considered joining a PbP here at Paizo? I think it would be fun for you.No, that's not something I've considered, because life is busy enough that I'm hard pressed to fit in time for my regular gaming group on a consistent basis. But my usual group is taking a break for the summer due to travel schedules and time commitment issues, so maybe I should consider a PbP, at least in the short term...
I understand that, about the RL being busy and all. If you do decide to join a PbP, they do run much longer than normal games. The plus side of that is you have more control of the timing of the game. If you are interested, just keep an eye on the Gamer Connection forum, games start (and fill) up quickly, he he. Heck I am running a game now, and if that goes well, I may start a new one later this year.
Hope you do that, its a great way to have fun!
Or key numbers... or key names/avatars. Hee-hee.I said I was sorry! I even let the donkey, elephant, and poop-flinging monkey go after that one incident. How long must I suffer before I am forgiven?
** spoiler omitted **
Great combinations, Alleynbard. However, you'll not so easily trick me into being revealing. ;)
BTW, the poo-flinging monkey says hello.
|
|
I did see that, yes, and I should have acknowledged that you did that. I apologize for not making it clear that I in no way view your contributions, to this thread or that one, as an example of dismissive response. You personally have been thoughtful and reasonable in the discussion.
Thanks for that.
Seelah is awesome! She's probably my favorite iconic. I never had any desire to play a paladin until I saw her, and then saw the PFRPG versions of the half-orc and the paladin class. And now I have a half-orc paladin running around in my head that I can't actually play because our group has switched over to 4E and the character just doesn't work the way I want it to under that ruleset. :P
I was fired up by that iconic. In the past I've been put off by paladins, big heavily armored, self-righteous bigots. At least its how they've come across. Then I saw Seelah (didn't realize the picture had a name!), and I was struck by the possibilities. So for me seeing a female as a paladin kicked some of the male stereotype dust out of my noodle.
Take care.
That and a female BARBARIAN!
Now, if we really wanted to analyze the male fantasy mind, a female iconic paladin and a female iconic barbarian are really suggestive fertile grounds for doing so...
Giggidy.
** spoiler omitted **
Before, a trickle, but now the gates of Fawtlydom opr wide. It was only a matter of time.
Before, a trickle, but now the gates of Fawtlydom opr wide. It was only a matter of time.
And I command you to go forth and spread our debauchery throughout the boards. Let all who stand in our path shudder at our juvinille ways!
I see now... it's the ultimate in making people welcome. Force them to be welcome. How could I have been so blind???
I see now... it's the ultimate in making people welcome. Force them to be welcome. How could I have been so blind???Oh, a wise guy eh? *double pokes Mairkurion's eyes*
nyuknyuknyuk
I see now... it's the ultimate in making people welcome. Force them to be welcome. How could I have been so blind???
And you said it was my fault?
Don't make me angry. Alchemical experiments have had a consequence that you wouldn't like.