Ahh, the disovery of the Pathfinder game.
Old gamer here. DnD original blue box game, followed by, when married, 1st edition. Our group had a die hard 2nd edition player, and some of that was implemented. Fun times indeed!
Always held that love of a good story, as Im sure many here do as well. And there is nothing like being a GM, and watching your friends interact in your world and enjoying themselves.
So here I am. After my years of DnD, I moved onto MMORPG's EQ1, LoTR, and WoW, I decided that mmorpg's were ok, but I missed that real RP feel and creativity. And, truth be told, I stopped enjoying the MMORPG community as much as I once did. I missed in person with friends gaming with creative charactors and a story driven campaign.
I checked out DnD to discover a new edidtion. I researched, but did not truly listen. A trip to a local gaming store and I heard how much 4E was like my older days of DnD. I asked about this Pathfinder game that crept into review after review, but none heard of it. I read some very controversial reviews about the direction of Wizards. I didnt listen. So, on there recomendation, I decided on 4E. I read the rules. Echoes of my conversation in the gaming store went through my head. I read the rules again. I wasnt sure if I had bought the DnD game. I mean that with sincerity. I was a little confused about what I was reading. Seemed as if I bought a mini battle game, played with board and miniatures, with little real zest. For me anyway. I went back to the reviews. Forgotten realms reviews brought me to Pathfinder, I read about MMORPG playstyle (Which, after looking at my books, does seem to have some validity). I didnt want to make a Death Knight in a leet speaking combat grid battle game. I missed in person creative charactors and RP and interaction in a thought out world with people who enjoy a variety of gaming styles.
Now, anyone who works at Borders Book store... Kudos to your store! Ill even go so far as to clap my hands and applaud! (Though I feel guilty for not placing a note in the books I returned in fair warning) They took my DnD products back. Its on the shelf again. And, seeing a copy of the Pathfinder game, I picked up a copy. I need not say more. This was more of a feel of what I remembered. Honestly, after checking out the 4E game, I was relieved that they took it back. Im not knocking anyone who enjoys it, but I can honestly say some of the reviews feel right. Its not DnD, and it is a game more catered to a younger crowd who is used to mmorpg's, and not the game I remember. Maybe Im wrong in my assesment. But that is what I discovered.
So, I rambled (As I did in my first post that never appeared)
Im looking at the Chronicals campaign guide. Ive read that it is much more like the original FR realms from DnD long ago. IS this so? I would have to order online, as there are no places in my area that offer anything more then the Pathfinder core rule book. But the reviews seem very good. Any honest opinions from folk who may understand where I am coming from?
Also, one more question. Nobody in my area has heard of Pathfinder. I can see that, to someone who truely enjoyed the original DnD in its various editions, Pathifnder seems much more viable for an old school feel campaign. Ive been going over the rule book (I did own the 3.5 core books and FR books, I just never got much of a chance to play) and I can already envision a campaign and what Id like to run. So, heres the big question. Anyone have any insight as to how to introduce the game to people who have only heard of 4E and previous editions of DnD? I dont know the people in the store, I just talked to them. Im just not shy 8) My daughter, who is older now, wants to try the game after hearing stories of myself and her mother who used to play, and about what it was like. So, I know nobody other then her who plays, yet Id like to simply start a game with people I dont know. Would anyone have any recomendations?
Appreciate any feedback and the time it took to read my far too long post 8)
Typos? Im on a laptop at the moment, and my fingers just feel to big to type on the thing.
Anyway, if I made sense, Im happy. Any insight, Id really appreciate it.
Im off to read more and more about you all have to say about my new discovery in Pathfinder 8)
Well, welcome aboard, Cork. I'm sure the cookies and backslapping will be starting any moment now. They're good people here and Paizo is probably the best friend a gaming consumer can have in terms of customer service and direct communication with the fans. Enjoy you stay!
Welcome to Pathfinder and the Paizo boards. May you enjoy your stay.
Firstly, Welcome Back!
I'd suggest any 'Meetup' groups in your area, try googling 'd&d groups'.
There are a few online forums for finding players, Enworld, Pen & Paper Games. Basically, google is your friend tho.
Good luck :)
Matey, first of, welcome.
I'm glad to see wisdom in your words, and I hope you find enjoyment in Pathfinder, cause it is in fact an AWESOME product.
The feel and mood of 1st and 2nd edition I think is completely lost, but if anyone can bring it back, it's those guys, I seriously hope they do, so far, no complains here.
If you want to find a group I would offer to play, wholeheartedly, from your post alone I can see we are kindred spirits in regard to gaming. But since I live in Santos, Brasil; I think it would be a little tough, hehe.
My advice to find a group is, find people who played 3rd and 3.5 and liked it, they will LOVE pathfinder, and if they don't they are morons you shouldn't be playing with in the first place.
Once again, welcome mate. Count me in for anything I can do to help you out.
Welcome Hands out rum
Hi Cork! *hugs, offers virtual cookies*
A lot of people on the boards are old school gamers as well, and the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting really calls that out. (Note that there is a difference between the ruleset, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and Pathfinder, the campaign setting - see here for all the various lines.)
If you're starting a new game with new players, I would keep it simple and straightforward. Paizo has a free adventure for 3.5 right here if you need ideas, and don't hesitate to ask questions on the boards! Welcome!
8)
I didnt expect such a warm welcome! It is very much apprecaited! Nothing like being made to feel welcomed, getting some virtual cookies, some info, and hello's 8)
Ill check out the campaign world, though I dont think I would be able to wait until later this year :P Its my flaw, Im impatient. Now Im a bit anxious to explore the campaign world and delve right on in!
Looking forward to talking to you all and talking about this world and game! The most enjoyment, after all, is the people!
Thanks again all 8)
Oh, yes, and copy any posts to clipboard before hitting submit or preview. The boards occasionally 'eat' a post if you take a long time in the writing of it (or if the boards are particularly busy). It's colloquially known as 'The Messageboard Bug' around here, and at least one poster has an alias playing on that.
Lazarus Form Recovery is highly recommended when posting on these boards. It's also available as a Chrome extension.
Lazarus Form Recovery is highly recommended when posting on these boards. It's also available as a Chrome extension.Oh, yes, and copy any posts to clipboard before hitting submit or preview. The boards occasionally 'eat' a post if you take a long time in the writing of it (or if the boards are particularly busy). It's colloquially known as 'The Messageboard Bug' around here, and at least one poster has an alias playing on that.
Or switch to Opera as your browser where it's (usually) stored anyway when you press back.
And welcome Cork ^^
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I wasnt sure if I had bought the DnD game. I mean that with sincerity. I was a little confused about what I was reading. Seemed as if I bought a mini battle game, played with board and miniatures, with little real zest. For me anyway.
I'm glad you decided to actually buy 4e and make up your own mind on the game. And even gladder that you were able to return the books when you found it wasn't for you.
I would warn you though, that Pathfinder is also best played with minis and a "board" / battle mat, just like 3.5 and 4e are. I think 4e takes it a little bit further (by explicitly using Squares to refer to distances) but just be aware that Pathfinder still suffers a little when not played with some sort of physical map and minis (but it is possible).
Its not DnD, and it is a game more catered to a younger crowd who is used to mmorpg's, and not the game I remember. Maybe Im wrong in my assesment. But that is what I discovered.
I think you're right to some degree, it is catering to get new players in. But I think more that it is simply the fact that it has moved on from the feel of the original D&D, as yours is a feeling shared by many (including a couple of people in my game group). I however only got into D&D with version 3.5 and so 4e still seems to be D&D to me - so even though I am not part of the "younger crowd" 4e still appeals to me (though it didn't at first I admit).
I did try to determine what exactly it was about 4e that made it lose its D&D feel to the old school players, but it doesn't seem to be any single consistent thing, it all depends on the player - for some it was Vancian magic, for others it was the fact that Gnomes, Bards and Druids were moved to the PHB2 etc. I would be curious to hear your reasons why 4e didn't feel like D&D.
Anyway, welcome to the Paizo forums!
find people who played 3rd and 3.5 and liked it, they will LOVE pathfinder, and if they don't they are morons you shouldn't be playing with in the first place.
Thanks for that insult to all those people who like 3.5 but don't LOVE Pathfinder (of which I am one), much appreciated.
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Welcome Cork! Check out the game connection forum on these message boards. It is another good way to find a game in your area. Click here.
And +1 on Lazurus - its a great program for recovering lost posts
Welcome aboard!!!
PF's a great game and I'll go and say that as long as you and the players have a good sense of who's where with relative distances, you don't need markers, maps, or mini's - just play. Have fun, stick to the story, provide opportunities in-game for abilities to be utilized (screw the maps) and everyone will have fun.
I'm definitely old-school like you, bud (though I latched onto 2e more than 1e myself - just liked the images/layout/rules approaches better in that game :shrugs:). There are some other games (not PF) that are labeled as "retro clones" as well, so with a little more research I'm sure you may even be able to find something closer to your taste even if PF isn't your bag later on down the road.
That said - very impressive product and company. IMO, it's THE best D&D/D20 game on the market at the moment. It's not "old school" but it's fun from levels 1-20 with every class. That, alone, is a huge selling point, IMO.
In terms of how to introduce the game to new players, the best way is to play. Particularly if the players are familiar with 3rd edition or 3.5, they wont have too much trouble adapting to pathfinder. Will you make mistakes? Ofcourse, but I dont think anyone has ever picked up a game as complex as dnd/pathfinder and not made some mistakes along the way.
One way to easily introduce people to the game is the module crypt of the everflame. It was specifically designed to showcase some of the new features of pathfinder over 3.5.
If your initial gaming group is small (IE you dont want to branch out of your wife and your daughter as a group) there are lots of ways to compensate for that. You can run a dm npc (to fill gaps in the party) and encourage them to run classes that are good at fitting multiple roles (the druid, cleric, paladin, and from Advanced players guide: summoner, inquisitor). That would probably be the best solution, but if you dont want to run a dmnpc, they can either run 2 characters each (but kind of hurts roleplay as its hard to 'get into character), or have them run gestault characters where they are essentially 2 classes at once.
I'm glad you decided to actually buy 4e and make up your own mind on the game. And even gladder that you were able to return the books when you found it wasn't for you.
I did try to determine what exactly it was about 4e that made it lose its D&D feel to the old school players, but it doesn't seem to be any single consistent thing, it all depends on the player - for some it was Vancian magic, for others it was the fact that Gnomes, Bards and Druids were moved to the PHB2 etc. I would be curious to hear your reasons why 4e didn't feel like D&D.
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Thanks again everyone for the welcome 8) And for the recovery of post tips!
To answer your question about my reasons for the 4E lack of feel.
When I first read the PHB, the first thing I noticed was this concept of balance. Im not sure why there was a reason for balance in a DnD table game. It seemed to be stressed that no charactor could be more powerful then the next. That was the way I perceived it. There was the initial missing gnomes and druid class, and monk, (my personal favorite). Though from what I read it was also introduced later in the game.
In our old campaign (90's) we had a die hard have to own everything DnD guy in our group. So we introduced quite a bit. So 1/2 E was what we played. Lots of charactor options and new things to learn. Just seemed that the possibilities were much more open to people when creating a charactor, and playing. Then the magic. I didnt spend a lot of time learning the rules of 4E, but magic seemed to be more limited as well. So if creating a PC or NPC, it had the feel of lacking if that was the direction you wanted to take.
Minis! Back in the day, we had our collection of painted minis (Im not sure if people paint there own anymore). We just had them. On some encounters, we would use a loose lay out of the encounter and then place the mini's on the table if needed, as some encounters it made things easy. But reading through 4E, there seemed to be a huge emphasis on mini's. Too much for me, anyway. So when going through the charactors and then combat and battle grid, the way I felt is that the Battle Grid system was core to the game. It made it feel as if playing the game, story was second and designed to play out battles on the grid system, rather then encounters being second to the charactors, theme and overall experience.
I also looked through the Forgotten Realms book, and wasnt happy either, to be honest. I enjoyed FR for quite some time. In changing the realms the way they did, it somewhat was the final piece in a puzzle of the directions Wizards took DnD.
Thats my basic take on how I saw things, anyway. If I had to sum things up, Id say 4E was an expanded basic game, rather then a deeper feel game. I dont even know if that was a good use of words.
If I found a group that was die hard 4E? Sure Id play. Id be able to enjoy the game. People more then the system make for the fun. But, given the choice, and having compared the rules in my hands, Pathfinder just seems to have the feel of what I remember more then 4E. Id never say its a bad game, just one that I wasnt able to associate with my own minds version of the creativity of older DnD.
I wont knock 4E, Im sure it can be enjoyable. And bringing in newer, younger players can only be a good thing. Even bringing on older players who never had a chance would be a good thing. I just personally think that, after going through the rules, it seemed they tried too hard for the concept of balance and battle grids to give the game a certian feel.
Hope that made sense 8)
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Cork, welcome to the Boards!
I was gonna say "Hi" earlier and mention that your 4E story is the best one I've heard in a while but didn't want to start a flame war.
Regarding your last post, lots of people here on the Boards spent a good year lashing out against WotC, others defending WotC. As a result, Paizo actually had to create policy for rude posters and even make "sticky" posts on some Threads asking people to be civil.
Some long-time Paizo posters even left the Boards because the angry posts were too much.
(For the record, I was a pretty big "anti WotC" mouth)
Anyway, your last post, innocuous as it may have been intended, is pretty hot on the Boards here, figured I'd give you a "Heads up." Nothing intentional, I'm sure, we're just a little sensitive on the subject.
Uh, welcome to Paizo.
Stay for Lilith's cookies.
Welcome to the show!
If you're are looking for a GM or players, you can always look at various meetup group sites, post at your local gaming store, and there is always the possibility one of the fellow posters might be in your area and looking for their gaming fix as well.
Ciao
I was old school, and was totally put off by 4E initially, and understand your sentiments, although I still play it. As to finding more people to play pathfinder, that were introduced via 4E, that should be pretty straight forward as the concepts remain the same, but the mechanics differ. But as others stated they both pretty much rely on grid based combat, as least I have always used grid based combat even when playing 1E. If you are willing to DM it will be even easier, as I find that is the hardest part to bring a solid group together.
Welcome to the board.
Howdy
and ys Golarion is more Realms than the Realms is now
by a wide margin, delving into Golarion is a lot like my first foray into the old grey box
Cork, welcome to the Boards!
I was gonna say "Hi" earlier and mention that your 4E story is the best one I've heard in a while but didn't want to start a flame war.
Regarding your last post, lots of people here on the Boards spent a good year lashing out against WotC, others defending WotC. As a result, Paizo actually had to create policy for rude posters and even make "sticky" posts on some Threads asking people to be civil.
Some long-time Paizo posters even left the Boards because the angry posts were too much.
(For the record, I was a pretty big "anti WotC" mouth)Anyway, your last post, innocuous as it may have been intended, is pretty hot on the Boards here, figured I'd give you a "Heads up." Nothing intentional, I'm sure, we're just a little sensitive on the subject.
Uh, welcome to Paizo.
Stay for Lilith's cookies.
Who can resist the tempation of cookies!
On a more serious note, I had no intention of fanning an ember of a heated debate 8( I only wished to describe what I felt upon 4E after being gone from gaming for awhile! If I knew it was such a subject, Id simply have left out anything I might have thought about 4E (Insert tear here).
Pathifnder, as well as what Ive read of the Campaign world in Chronicals (Galorian?) just seems to catch me with a flood of hopefully soon to be enjoyment. Ive ordered the Campaign world and am anxious to begin delving into things. My creative juices are flowing
Thanks for the heads up, and welcome 8)
I was old school, and was totally put off by 4E initially, and understand your sentiments, although I still play it. As to finding more people to play pathfinder, that were introduced via 4E, that should be pretty straight forward as the concepts remain the same, but the mechanics differ. But as others stated they both pretty much rely on grid based combat, as least I have always used grid based combat even when playing 1E. If you are willing to DM it will be even easier, as I find that is the hardest part to bring a solid group together.
Welcome to the board.
Actually, Dming is what I enjoy more then playing. Love to write and create (Hobby of mine, so RPG's are a perfect way for me to have a reason to write 8). Ive bombed a few times, but really enjoy it when the group gets into things and the hours passed and everyone was just into it and involved.
With a fun group, Id play many games. Between our (very) old group, we had traveler, DnD 1/ 2E, An old game about Atlantis (Very good game, least I thought so), original Middel Earth, and quite a few others. Most of it was in DnD and the Realms, but there were lots of games back then. We kept up in those days before video games, and though I have played MMORPG's in the past, I dont think it compares to the sit down with friends and delving into those stories where anything can happen!
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Ill check out the meetup groups and see if I can find them in town, its a great idea, and Ill stop by the local game store (I know they play 4E there) and see if I can get some interest or maybe find someone who already plays.
Again all, thanks for the warm welcome 8)
Howdy
and ys Golarion is more Realms than the Realms is now
by a wide margin, delving into Golarion is a lot like my first foray into the old grey box
I think my best times were back in those old FR days 8) I havent even had a chance to check out the campaign world for Pathfinder, but I have read some reviews. Really looking forward to checking it out!
The Pathfinder Chronicles book is ...
pulp fantasy (good)
optimized for playability (good)
very high-concept overview (good)
I will not say it is like the old F.R. stuff. It isn't worse, nor is it better. Well, it may be a little better, but only because it is really written for how a campaign world should be played instead of simply run and published.
I love the book, but I don't think it will replace early F.R. for you. Maybe because you can't replace a campaign setting. Give Golarion (the chronicles setting) a look with fresh eyes. Buy it, and if reading any given nation doesn't want to make you set a game there, then you can take it out on me.
Hello and welcome
First, I'd like to point out that the best way to keep the thread eating monster at bay is copying the post before you hit the submit button, which works on any browser.
Second I'm glad that you've come here as your posts are quite enjoyable. I personally ply both pathfinder and 4E (and Star Wars Saga) and enjoy tthem all, but if I want to play the D&D, I really play Pathfinder now. 4E didn't do the continuation trick for me, but still it's a good way to have some mini-based fun.
I hope you enjoy your stay here and your play at home ;)
The Pathfinder Chronicles book is ...
pulp fantasy (good)
optimized for playability (good)
very high-concept overview (good)I will not say it is like the old F.R. stuff. It isn't worse, nor is it better. Well, it may be a little better, but only because it is really written for how a campaign world should be played instead of simply run and published.
I love the book, but I don't think it will replace early F.R. for you. Maybe because you can't replace a campaign setting. Give Golarion (the chronicles setting) a look with fresh eyes. Buy it, and if reading any given nation doesn't want to make you set a game there, then you can take it out on me.
"Fresh eyes" is what brought me to Pathfinder 8)
I think thats part of the hype for me... Its all new with a fresh feel yet it feels the same... bah, I dont even know if that makes sense.
Im really looking foreward to the setting. The reviews are all good and from what Ive read, lots of areas that are unique to be explored and used.
Hello and welcome
First, I'd like to point out that the best way to keep the thread eating monster at bay is copying the post before you hit the submit button, which works on any browser.
Second I'm glad that you've come here as your posts are quite enjoyable. I personally ply both pathfinder and 4E (and Star Wars Saga) and enjoy tthem all, but if I want to play the D&D, I really play Pathfinder now. 4E didn't do the continuation trick for me, but still it's a good way to have some mini-based fun.
I hope you enjoy your stay here and your play at home ;)
Star Wars. I remember seeing the original in a Drive In theater with my neighbor, loved it. So does my daughter. When I first started looking at DnD, I found posts about Star Wars as an RPG (Not the upcoming mmorpg, but the pen and paper your talking of)... soon as I found it, I read that it was being discontinued... Had I began to invest in that, I would have been most frustrated :P
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Star Wars. I remember seeing the original in a Drive In theater with my neighbor, loved it. So does my daughter. When I first started looking at DnD, I found posts about Star Wars as an RPG (Not the upcoming mmorpg, but the pen and paper your talking of)... soon as I found it, I read that it was being discontinued... Had I began to invest in that, I would have been most frustrated :P
Well, I was talking a D20 Star Wars Saga, which is still supported by the WoTC. It ended up half way between 3E and 4E with the result being quite enjoyable. Heh, the first time I saw the original Star Wars it was on a low quality VHS in early 90s (when the jediy finally scaled the iron curtain :D).
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When I first read the PHB, the first thing I noticed was this concept of balance. Im not sure why there was a reason for balance in a DnD table game. It seemed to be stressed that no charactor could be more powerful then the next.
I agree that 4e more strongly balances characters, and it does this by using a similar effect based set of mechanics (i.e. powers) that then get dressed in different ways (as learned martial fighting abilities, arcane spells, divine powers etc).
Whether D&D needs balance is debatable and I think depends upon the group - some groups have the maturity to play vastly different power level of characters but still have each PC contribute equally to the overall storyline. However, for other groups some players can "hog the limelight" with a powerful character relegating the other PCs to supporting characters.
Pathfinder actually seems to have strived to add a bit more balance between some of the classes than D&D3.5 had - Fighters were considered totally outmatched by wizards at higher levels and so Paizo tried to bring the two more in line (though how successful they were is also up for debate).
So balance was a design concern for Pathfinder but it isn't as balanced as 4e is. For some like you this may be a good thing, but for others it isn't. Hence why some people like 4e and others like Pathfinder.
I didnt spend a lot of time learning the rules of 4E, but magic seemed to be more limited as well.
I think Rituals in 4e bring some of the missing flavour and utility that the spell powers lack - this split was a design decision by the 4e team, though I do wish there had been more rituals initialy.
But reading through 4E, there seemed to be a huge emphasis on mini's. Too much for me, anyway. So when going through the charactors and then combat and battle grid, the way I felt is that the Battle Grid system was core to the game.
As stated just be aware that a battle grid is fairly core to Pathfinder too, in fact being too heavily reliant on miniatures and a battle grid was sometimes a criticism of D&D 3.5 (upon which Pathfinder is based).
In changing the realms the way they did, it somewhat was the final piece in a puzzle of the directions Wizards took DnD.
I heard they effectively did a reboot of the setting so I can imagine that may not be to everyone's taste and if that was the setting you wanted to play, then why play the game? Personally I was never a fan of FR (though I play in a game using Pathfinder) Eberron is my favoured game (which is why I prefer 3.5 & 4e to Pathfinder).
If I found a group that was die hard 4E? Sure Id play. Id be able to enjoy the game. People more then the system make for the fun. But, given the choice, and having compared the rules in my hands, Pathfinder just seems to have the feel of what I remember more then 4E.
I can completely emphathise with this - although for me its the reverse I play in a group that is into Pathfinder and I can enjoy the game, however given the choice I would rather be playing D&D 3.5 or 4e.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain your feelings on 4e, I am always keen to discuss people's perception of it.
I think my best times were back in those old FR days 8) I havent even had a chance to check out the campaign world for Pathfinder, but I have read some reviews. Really looking forward to checking it out!
I can see why some might think the ship has sailed, but I'm running a FR/Pathfinder campaign set in Waterdeep & the Sword Coast in 1363, 5 years after the Time of Troubles. I use the 3rd edition FR books for flavor, but "rewind" the timeline. I don't allow anything that's not Pathfinder core without serious consideration. It's working well so far, one thing I've done is let my players look through Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog and convert their favorite items (again for my perusal). Keeping the 2nd edition flavor is a primary goal of mine.
Zo