In 3.5 NO Paladins could smite with bows.
I think that there was also an elf paladin substitution level from races of the wild which allowed ranged smiting *in exchange for melee smiting*. I don't think it was generally considered a good trade, but it maybe gives another indication of how big a boost to smite pallys got in PF.
I think the real issue with smite evil is that it upsets a very problematic and all too frequent type of encounter- The Big Bad Single Creature.
The problem with the BIG BAD SINGLE is the SINGLE part.
It works if you have a 1 versus 1 combat -- but I like to point out that anytime you have X versus 1 the one is in a very bad spot, unless he is completely overpowering...
That's just standard no matter the media (except for video games). After all if he's not overpowering then he's going to lose quickly.
The problem with the BIG BAD SINGLE is the SINGLE part.
It works if you have a 1 versus 1 combat -- but I like to point out that anytime you have X versus 1 the one is in a very bad spot, unless he is completely overpowering...
+1. The action economy works very strongly against single opponents, even if those opponents are significantly stronger than the party. It's very hard to compete against 12 actions per round when you only have 3.
The solution is to add more monsters to each encounter - especially boss level encounters.
Another wise one gives simple yet practical advice.
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+1. The action economy works very strongly against single opponents, even if those opponents are significantly stronger than the party. It's very hard to compete against 12 actions per round when you only have 3.The problem with the BIG BAD SINGLE is the SINGLE part.
It works if you have a 1 versus 1 combat -- but I like to point out that anytime you have X versus 1 the one is in a very bad spot, unless he is completely overpowering...
+1. The action economy works very strongly against single opponents, even if those opponents are significantly stronger than the party. It's very hard to compete against 12 actions per round when you only have 3.The problem with the BIG BAD SINGLE is the SINGLE part.
It works if you have a 1 versus 1 combat -- but I like to point out that anytime you have X versus 1 the one is in a very bad spot, unless he is completely overpowering...
And this is true no matter what the system. Simple fact is that when you have "four" facing "one" of anything it is easier to break the one than it is to break the four (especially if you can only target one or two at a time for half of what the four can bring to bear at a single time against the one) and action economy...
honestly it should be "time economy" since the four have 4 times as much time as the 1... this also shows that it is the same in all cases and not just something that is somehow unique to D&D.
didn't the 3.5 miniatures game have multiple actions for the boss types (dragons come to mind)? IIRC the number of actions decreased as the creature got wounded. never played that system, so no idea how it works in practice.
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smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)
also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.
Have you been reading the post that show all of the paladin's negatives?
Have you even seen a pally in real play?
If you have what happened to make you afraid of it?
Ive read all your post and was not impressed with your defenses< and i would not be posting if i had not seen a paladin in real play (unlike some who like to dwell in the conceptual) a poorly built paladin rules every important battle and does as well as any other character in every other battle ( fantastic saves and a better animal companion than a druid help with that) im not afraid of them, they are just not balanced at 5th level+ (summoner isn't balanced at even level one) ive had a paladin played in every game ive played since the PDF came out and its been a noticeable the power level difference. we have played ROTRL, Crimson throne and a smattering of homebrew games, my gaming group is pretty unanimous about this issue
smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)
also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.
Have you been reading the post that show all of the paladin's negatives?
Have you even seen a pally in real play?
If you have what happened to make you afraid of it?Ive read all your post and was not impressed with your defenses< and i would not be posting if i had not seen a paladin in real play (unlike some who like to dwell in the conceptual) a poorly built paladin rules every important battle and does as well as any other character in every other battle ( fantastic saves and a better animal companion than a druid help with that) im not afraid of them, they are just not balanced at 5th level+ (summoner isn't balanced at even level one) ive had a paladin played in every game ive played since the PDF came out and its been a noticeable the power level difference. we have played ROTRL, Crimson throne and a smattering of homebrew games, my gaming
group is pretty unanimous about this issue
How is a poorly built class ruling anything? I think the paladin is perfectly balanced. I will just chalk it up to style of play.
At least you post on things you have seen. I can respect that.
Smite applies on attack rolls, not magic.
I actually quoted the entry for smite and people are saying this. They add their charisma to their attack rolls and their level to all damage rolls. There's nothing about smite having to be made with an attack roll in there at all. Smiting lightning bolt!
And even I wouldn't allow the smiting magic missile bombardment and would probably let smite apply once total to it. For area of effect spells I'd let the wizard/sorc/cleric/druid cut up the smite damage to each target in the area's effect. It's just possible according to the general feel of the rules.
you have to remember that you cant aoe smite. If you have targeted 1 monster with smite, then only that monster recieves the bonus damage, not every monster hit by the same fireball or what not.
Besides that i completely agree that a boss encounter should have multiple enemys to even out the odds
One of my fellow adventures is this halfing paladin. He strait up murders BBEG'sTower shield. Wind Wall. Mirror Image. Displacement. Project Image.
Yeah, Wind Wall alone is probably one of the most powerful defensive spells in the game, since it shuts down one method of combat completely.
Smite applies on attack rolls, not magic.I actually quoted the entry for smite and people are saying this. They add their charisma to their attack rolls and their level to all damage rolls. There's nothing about smite having to be made with an attack roll in there at all. Smiting lightning bolt!
And even I wouldn't allow the smiting magic missile bombardment and would probably let smite apply once total to it. For area of effect spells I'd let the wizard/sorc/cleric/druid cut up the smite damage to each target in the area's effect. It's just possible according to the general feel of the rules.
You have my thanks for pointing out this loophole. I'm definitely going to houserule this problem.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.Paladin: I fire an arrow and righteously smite my foe from the safety of the back of the party.
Very heroic. :)
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.
That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
The iconic smite evil is the Paladin going up front in face with evil, and personally delivering the divine wrath of her goddess. Sniping from a corner just isn't right.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
Have to disagree with this.
I can absolutely imagine this :
Paladin on his palfrey pulls a bow off his back and kissing the holy symbol carved into it. "Oh my goddess, grant me the power to slay this evil creature who threatens your flock. Grant me your wisdom and power, give me the strength I need to battle this minion of evil." Then he pulls an arrow from his quiver and points his arrow to the sky, lining up his sight with the red dragon that hovers over the village blasting it with fire. "AVAUNT THE SPAWN OF EVIL! TASTE THE WRATH OF MY GODDESS!" And the bow glows with a holy light, and the arrow flashes into a bolt of pure energy as it reaches out to slam into the dragon's chest.
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They are really, really, grotesquely good. I think you've failed to do the math.
-Cross
If you can afford a high Str and Dex. And get your hands on a composite bow to take advantage of your Str bonus. Without something else like smite or sneak attack, you're running the risk of rolling a 1. The 'full-attack all the time' is balanced by that risk of minimum damage.
First off, Hi again to Lastknight and Snorter.. been a long time since those huge debates in the beta!
I just cant believe this argument keeps coming up, so much QQ I just dont get it. But..
If someone must do something to "nerf" smite then please do it like Lastknight did it. Not for the reduction in damage but for the flavor of the paladin smiting evil and not just the really BAD evil. If you are gonna take something away from smite you need to put something else in its place.
On the topic of Aura of Justice.. ill be the first to say that I was against this ability the first time I saw it and ever since. I do not like the idea of it nor do I like the power of it. It should be that the paladin can grant his bonus to hit in this way but NOT the damage (much like the ranger can do).
On archeradin's: My feelings on this are mixed. I much prefer the idea of the paladin standing toe to toe with his enemy. This is much more balanced and much more flavorful. But I also see plenty of moments where the BBEG think its ok to just fly away from the paladin... the paladin should not be limited in his ability to dish our holy wrath just because the BBEG was smart enough to stand 10' away from him.
The real issue is how archers work in general in the game. The fact that you can full attack every single round is a bit broken. I dont know how you fix this except for the fact that there are roleplay things to consider. The archer does have to carry all those arrows, the DM should be sure to keep track of just how many they have and how many they have used. But I am sure there are plenty of wasy to circumvent the need to carry arrows at all which brings us right back to the initial problem.
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Tower shield. Wind Wall. Mirror Image. Displacement. Project Image.
If you can afford a high Str and Dex. And get your hands on a composite bow to take advantage of your Str bonus. Without something else like smite or sneak attack, you're running the risk of rolling a 1. The 'full-attack all the time' is balanced by that risk of minimum damage.
^^ If you're keeping Paladins in check, why then, you must be... THE DEVIL! ^^
Oh, wait, this is Pathfinder - you must be the demon.Is Smite a little too good? Probably. There are lots of things that are a little too good to be balanced. I think the real issue with smite evil is that it upsets a very problematic and all too frequent type of encounter- The Big Bad Single Creature. When it comes to the final encounter, all too often the paladin is going to nova and butcher the thing. OR If it is strong enough to stand up to the smiting paladin, the other characters are going to be overwhelmed.
The solution isn't so to tone down smiting, improved-invisible-rapid-shot-sneak-attacks or save-or-suck-and-die magic. (Although these are all a little overpowered) The solution is to add more monsters to each encounter - especially boss level encounters. If that had been the 4 Green dragons of the apocalypse, it would have been fine if one got taken out in 2 rounds by a single player.
As tempting as it is to go for the epic single creature encounter, it really brings out a lot of the little flaws and imperfections of the system.
I find that the solo bad guy at the end is doomed reguardless of what classes are present. Sure it looks terrible when Paladin smites. But really it's no different with any other classes. A single creature gets all the focused firepower of the party. They always die quickly. In my game I find the encounters working up to the BBEG to tougher for my players as they eat up more resources.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
Obviously you have not done the math on them. They beat out melee thanks to getting 2 more attacks a round, and don't do significantly less damage. Composite bows are cheap by lvl 5.
As for Paladins using ranged smite, I do have an issue with it. I wouldn't ban it though. For me, it boils down into part of their code where they are supposed to be honorable. Bows are honorable in some situations, like a Dragon flying arround refusing to come down and just using his breath weapon on you. They are not honorable in others, like a fellow knight with sword drawn approaching you. If a player wanted to play the standard Archadin, I probably wouldn't allow it, since in my games the second situation comes up much more than the first.
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You know, I actually like aura of justice, I think it just provides the bonus for too long. If aura of justice was pay 2 uses of smite to grant all allies the ability to smite for one round, I think it would actually be a strong power still, and one that was a lot more tactical in its application.
As for Archerdins I have no problem with them at all. Once you get rid of double damage against certain types, the limited # of smites per day does a fine job of keeping them in check.
Ive read all your post and was not impressed with your defenses< and i would not be posting if i had not seen a paladin in real play (unlike some who like to dwell in the conceptual) a poorly built paladin rules every important battle and does as well as any other character in every other battle ( fantastic saves and a better animal companion than a druid help with that) im not afraid of them, they are just not balanced at 5th level+ (summoner isn't balanced at even level one) ive had a paladin played in every game ive played since the PDF came out and its been a noticeable the power level difference. we have played ROTRL, Crimson throne and a smattering of homebrew games, my gaming group is pretty unanimous about this issuesmite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)
also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.
Have you been reading the post that show all of the paladin's negatives?
Have you even seen a pally in real play?
If you have what happened to make you afraid of it?
Certainly the paladin has excellent saves but how does he have a better animal companion then a druid? Heavy horse doesnt even come close to the big cat in terms of combat strength. Or are you among those that allow the paladin to use most anything for a mount? I think that represents a very big power swing.
I admit my own experience is primarily with the paladin having the weapon bond instead of the mount bond, as my group tends to have alot of encounters where having a large sized pet makes things difficult.
I disagree about the 'poorly built paladin rules every important battle'. At my table the paladin has usually pretty weak in the big battles. A big part of this is I always have at least as many enemies as I have party members in the combat. Which significantly reduces the power of smite which is a single target ability. The other issue is mobility, a paladin in full plate (ive almost never seen a paladin out of full plate past the first few levels) have alot of trouble getting around (if he doesnt have a mount). And my big encounters ALWAYS involve terrain and movement as part of the fight. You always have to fight your way TOO my big bads. For those reasons the paladin doesnt dominate my fights.
So my question to you is, what kind of fights are your important battles, how are they set up? What kind of enemies are you usually facing? What is the general terrain, room size, approach that sort of stuff. I am not disputing your experience, but i'd like to know what the discrepancy is.
Also what kind of time do your players/group spend on their characters mechanically. My group is definatley tipped in the roll play direction (vs roleplay) so all of us put alot of time and thought into the mechanical sides of our characters or 'builds' if you will. I think it is easier and simpler to make a more powerful paladin, then it is to make a powerful fighter, or even a cleric or wizard. The class is very straight forward so there is little effort in playing to it's strengths. Where as getting the most out of a fighter, or a full caster I think takes more effort. It is possible that is part of the discrepancy we see at our tables?
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
Clearly you've never seen a full blown archer in combat. As long as they're not right next to an enemy, they rock. I have an player who has an archer type, and we call him the human machine gun. :)
The iconic smite evil is the Paladin going up front in face with evil, and personally delivering the divine wrath of her goddess. Sniping from a corner just isn't right.
Have to disagree with this.
I can absolutely imagine this :
Paladin on his palfrey pulls a bow off his back and kissing the holy symbol carved into it. "Oh my goddess, grant me the power to slay this evil creature who threatens your flock. Grant me your wisdom and power, give me the strength I need to battle this minion of evil." Then he pulls an arrow from his quiver and points his arrow to the sky, lining up his sight with the red dragon that hovers over the village blasting it with fire. "AVAUNT THE SPAWN OF EVIL! TASTE THE WRATH OF MY GODDESS!" And the bow glows with a holy light, and the arrow flashes into a bolt of pure energy as it reaches out to slam into the dragon's chest.
Hmm, I see your point. In that situation I'd even say a smite evil is appropriate.
But compare that with the dragon impaling the group in melee, while the paladin avoids combat and shoots from a distance (and I've seen certain paladin PC's do similar).
Actually, scratch my complaints about archery + smite evil. If any paladin did something cowardly, I would rule he had broken his Paladin Code and thus loses his powers anyway. Problem solved. :)
I still believe Aura of Justice needs to be taken down a few pegs though.
Can archers do a lot of damage? Yes.
Do they have to invest more into feats and magic items? Yes
If they have to put more effort just to get the same results as melee characters I don't see the problem.
Archers have to at least have point blank shot, precise shot, and improved precise shot as or penalties start coming in. It is not like they are sitting across the room in safety for free.
PS: I know rangers can use their bonus feats to bypass these requirements but any other class has to pay the piper.
Actually, scratch my complaints about archery + smite evil. If any paladin did something cowardly, I would rule he had broken his Paladin Code and thus loses his powers anyway. Problem solved. :)
I still believe Aura of Justice needs to be taken down a few pegs though.
If the dragon is too stupid to attack the biggest threat to his life then the paladin probably figures this is a good time for the party to get some practice in against dragons, before they fight one that has not been dropped on his head few times when he first hatched from the egg.
You know .. I can't get on the side of the "smite's too much" people. I just can't. The one case they do complain about is the case where it's very clearly spelled out that they are supposed to own-booty! Evil outsiders, Evil dragons, and evil undead. With "holy power" as the source explanation, people are really taking issue with this class feature? Cripes! If anything, I'd think the deflection bonus to AC = to Cha mod would have gotten more attention (only vs. the smite target, but hey, whatever ...). For my mileage, it's fine. I've got a different paladin build I use anyway, but PF's is cool too.
Anyway - to help the "OMG the Sky is Falling and it's the Paladin's fault" crowd, here's some ideas on mechanics to try and smooth things over (before you start banning the class or something equally nuts)
1) Feat chains will become your friend. Specifically - drop everything about the +2/lv damage types. Instead, make them Divine Feats that require the Smite ability (maybe a certain bab req as well?) to select. Dragons, should probably be the second specialization (making a "dragon-killer" not possible before the mid levels [bab +8 maybe? or higher?]). Want to make it more exclusive? Make the 1st smite type a requisite as well (2-feats to get dragon-killer status, and +8 bab). PC's probably shouldn't mess with dragons much before that point, IMO. This would have helped the OP as the +2 dmg would not have been possible for the level 7 character in question. The earliest one could be undead, since you can reasonably mess with a bunch of undead from level 1. Maybe it should just have the Smite Evil ability as a requisite. Finally, since they're the highest in CR's (mostly), leave outsiders for last. Give them the smite prereq, and maybe a +15 bab or there-abouts. Want it to be more exclusive, make the dragon-killer divine feat a requisite, too. In this case, you're delaying the more potent abilities, using feats that are ALL ABOUT paladins (ie: giving them some cool options that are literally, tailor made for them), and forcing limited resources of Feats to be dedicated to this particular boosting effect. It's honestly, not much of a hit at all to Paladins, IMO, and it'll let fighter's further differentiate in that less combat feats for Pally's (assuming they progress with the smite-killer feats), means Fighters once again fight more/better than a pally. However, if the pally can corner any of his "I kill you" enemies, he will, in fact "kill the HELL" out of whatever evil thing's been dropped in front of him .. and he damn well SHOULD!!! {between taking it out of the base class feature, making it a 3-deep feat chain, required feats and BAB progressions, it's MORE than paid for - let 'em use it!) Call the feats something like “Negative Smite” (undead); “Dragonbane Smite” (dragons), and “Planar Smite” (outsiders). :shrugs: just some ideas.
2) Already mentioned – but just leave it as no bonus damage – EVER! Not exciting, but whatever – not my house rules, or my perceived problem. {ie: just strait +1/level smite damage}
3) Re-apply DR’s against smite. I don’t see why it should be ignored, really. Just a strange thing to suddenly jump to that point. By the time they hit level 14, they get this stuff anyway. “magic” gets bypassed with either casting magic weapon on himself, or just equipment – easy. “good” is the level 14 direct buff. Any weapon held in-hand and used if “good” now – pretty cool, and will by-pass DR anyway. If anything, maybe reduce the smite effect to make any attacks used with the smite use/day on the smite target count as “lawful” maybe? Or better yet, smite attempts automatically add “good” to whatever the pally’s doing, and then level 14 becomes “lawful” alignment. This way, by the time you hit level 14 (certainly a high-level) the “bypass all DR” is just a natural extension of what he’s up against. Only DR/- or DR/Epic would still be in play against a Pally, and that’s ok.
4) Adjust the Aura of Justice to last only 5 rounds (currently 1 minute = 10 rounds). Just drop in in 1/2. They still can only declare attack against 1 target/use. He's still sacrificing 2 of his own uses, so this is pretty fair for the duration-wise of such a sacrifice, IMO. I'd say maybe drop the bonus to 1/2 of current paladin level for his allies, though.
I will concede that Aura of Justice should only last one round. Other than that, I don't see paladins as a problem. And having played an archery Scout, I know exactly how powerful archery isn't.
The full attack thing keep being mention, but its not like all those attacks hit after factoring in shooting into melee and/or soft cover which basically combine for the equivalent of a -8 to your shots. Now if some people are ignoring that, the problem is not with the rules, but with the fact that they are ignoring the rules. I want to see one of these archerdins of doom.
The iconic smite evil is the Paladin going up front in face with evil, and personally delivering the divine wrath of her goddess. Sniping from a corner just isn't right.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
The iconic Paladin is a "I fight Evil!" Lawful Stupid class that is useless when evil things arn't around. let's go back to that because, you know, Pathfinder is nothing if not pointlessly nostalgic.
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What do you think?Brain
Well, I had almost the very same issue last year.
Only instead of a Paladin, it was a Druid.
Apparently, you have two choices; either fly around and beat the snot out of your players for a few rounds because none of them have reliable distance attacks or just go straight toe-to-toe using a higher CR dragon.
Those are your options. :)
Bad tactics, like bad luck, can mean the difference between a challenging encounter and an encounter that your PC's just walk through like wet tissue paper.
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I will concede that Aura of Justice should only last one round. Other than that, I don't see paladins as a problem. And having played an archery Scout, I know exactly how powerful archery isn't.The full attack thing keep being mention, but its not like all those attacks hit after factoring in shooting into melee and/or soft cover which basically combine for the equivalent of a -8 to your shots. Now if some people are ignoring that, the problem is not with the rules, but with the fact that they are ignoring the rules. I want to see one of these archerdins of doom.
I'd like to see how they handle a Wind Wall or two.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
Just to be clear, in terms of damage per round, Archers are the best build in Pathfinder, because they get a full attack each and every round of combat.
They are really, really, grotesquely good. I think you've failed to do the math.
-Cross
And a melee character can get in melee range and then do a full round attack each round. With 1x to 1.5x his Str bonus on every attack. And a Rogue can Sneak Attack every around. And they don't have to burn as many feats to pull it off. And they're weapon selection to do it isn't limited. Ans their weapon damage is higher.
Slings and thrown weapons:
Pros - always +Str to dmg, always full attack
Con - mediocre to terrible range, still need Dex to hit
Crossbows:
Pros - best range, highest damage dice, best crit range
Cons - cannot add Str dmg to attacks, need a feat just to take a full attack, can NEVER take a full attack with a Heavy Crossbow
Bows:
Pros - can add Str to attacks, more range than you need, always full attacks
Cons - you have to spend an increasing amount of money to afford the composite to fit your Str mod, you still need Dex to hit
Oh yeah, totally the best weapons in the game there. Ranged combat is inherently MAD, assuming you have 1 of the two types of weapons you can actually add extra damage to, 1 of which costs more money.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.
The iconic Paladin is a "I fight Evil!" Lawful Stupid class that is useless when evil things arn't around. let's go back to that because, you know, Pathfinder is nothing if not pointlessly nostalgic.The iconic smite evil is the Paladin going up front in face with evil, and personally delivering the divine wrath of her goddess. Sniping from a corner just isn't right.
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
I agree with you Cartigan. If a DM think's paladins should be suicidal then he can run "his" paladins that way, but that does not mean he has a right to force his players to.
And a melee character can get in melee range and then do a full round attack each round.
It's the "and then" part that's tripping you up. Archers get a full attack every single round. Melee guys don't, especially if the monsters have reach and Stand Still or are trip-happy. That seriously skews the damage per round (ie, DPR) stats towards archery, especially considering that most combats are only 4-5 rounds long.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.
Sure.
For the record, I don't think Smite Evil is unbalanced, nor do I think archer paladins are unbalanced. But saying that archery is weak is just nuts.
Move. Or arc their shots over the wall (it's shorter than it is long).
It's the "and then" part that's tripping you up.
Bullocks. It's not relevant given the extreme bonuses that melee has over archery.
Archers get a full attack every single round. Melee guys don't, especially if the monsters have reach and Stand Still or are trip-happy.
Because monsters never attack archers. All combat is held in a 200' room with archers on one side and the monster on the other and the melee people charging through the middle. There is no way the monster can close with the archer and trip it, or use its AoOs when the archer tries to attack because ranged attacks triggers AoOs.
Sure
Fighter is likely the ONLY class that could outstrip itself in Ranged combat. No other class gets the glut of feats, or the ability to repeatedly up its +ATK and +DMG to any specific weapon. Rogues rely on Sneak Attack which is all but impossible at range. Paladins don't get the glut of feats or Fighter only feats or Fighter bonuses to favored weapon. Neither do Barbarians. Rangers might have a chance to make Ranged combat equal, but only because one of their combat style is ranged combat.
And "Level 20" is not a "Look what I proved" starting point. How about at 12th. With a level 12 wealth level. I don't recall Mighty being that affordable.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.TWF-Paladin
2H Fighter
Ranged Fighter
The ranged characters out-damage the melee counterparts, and they can take full-attacks without having to move or put themselves at risk in melee. Ranged combat does have its flaws, but when it comes to pure damage it beats the rest, for the martial classes at least. A ranged paladin will give an evil dragon, evil outsider or undead creature a complete pummeling, unless it's way above the regular CR, and if it is, how is the rest of the party going to contribute?
I'm also thinking about banning the whole 'archer smite' thing, it sort of plays contrary to the whole concept of the paladin.That they might want to use a bow?
Ranged weapons have to be the worst ones in the game and what happens? Everyone wants to nerf them more!
Just to be clear, in terms of damage per round, Archers are the best build in Pathfinder, because they get a full attack each and every round of combat.
They are really, really, grotesquely good. I think you've failed to do the math.
-Cross
And a melee character can get in melee range and then do a full round attack each round. With 1x to 1.5x his Str bonus on every attack. And a Rogue can Sneak Attack every around. And they don't have to burn as many feats to pull it off. And they're weapon selection to do it isn't limited. Ans their weapon damage is higher.
Slings and thrown weapons:
Pros - always +Str to dmg, always full attack
Con - mediocre to terrible range, still need Dex to hitCrossbows:
Pros - best range, highest damage dice, best crit range
Cons - cannot add Str dmg to attacks, need a feat just to take a full attack, can NEVER take a full attack with a Heavy CrossbowBows:
Pros - can add Str to attacks, more range than you need, always full attacks
Cons - you have to spend an increasing amount of money to afford the composite to fit your Str mod, you still need Dex to hitOh yeah, totally the best weapons in the game there. Ranged combat is inherently MAD, assuming you have 1 of the two types of weapons you can actually add extra damage to, 1 of which costs more money.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.
You do realize its only 100 per str mod on a composite bow. I spend more than that on my potions by lvl 3.
Melee characters get power attact to boost damage, and maybe go TWF for increases in attacks. Other than that, they need more than 20 str to get bonuses that a bow user can't get.
Bow users get 2 bonus attacks thanks to feats. 1 of those can be taken at first lvl. These bonus attacks easily make up for their weapon damage decrease against a 2HW, and a Paladin smiting would get to add their lvl to damage 2 extra times. They also get point blank shot, giving them a bonus damage and + to hit source that melee characters cannot get. Deadly aim counters power attack unless a THW is being used. Because of the way arrows get bonuses from bows, they can also get higher effective bonuses on their attacks. The primary drawback being that they need 2 stats for offense, but since they are not on the front line as much they can take a hit to their con, and dex is one of the most useful stats overall.
The bow user sacrifices a little MAD and in exchange gets to not be next to his opponent, full attack more frequently, full attack for more attacks, and adds about the same bonus to damage.
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Move.
Close to melee you mean.
Or arc their shots over the wall (it's shorter than it is long).
I'm not exactly sure how this will work. DM fiat definately. Have to research it.
Of course, longbows are supposed to have arced shots anyway to get their range. Straight shooting doesn't work like that.
While the wall must be vertical, you can shape it in any continuous path along the ground that you like. It is possible to create cylindrical or square wind walls to enclose specific points.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.TWF-Paladin
2H Fighter
Ranged Fighter
I don't think you proved anything there.
I don't think you proved anything there.Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.TWF-Paladin
2H Fighter
Ranged Fighter
I wasn't trying to prove anything. You asked for math, so I posted it.
The validity of the DPR Olympics is debatable to say the least, but it's pretty much shown that ranged combat is the king in terms of DPR. Something to think about before you call it a bad fighting style.
I wasn't trying to prove anything. You asked for math, so I posted it.I don't think you proved anything there.Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.TWF-Paladin
2H Fighter
Ranged Fighter
You realize, of course, the point of math would be to prove your argument. Insert eye rolling smiley here.
I don't see a THF Paladin. Or a TWF Fighter. I doubt it would outdamage snot, but the point stands.
Move.Close to melee you mean.
Or arc their shots over the wall (it's shorter than it is long).I'm not exactly sure how this will work. DM fiat definately. Have to research it.
Of course, longbows are supposed to have arced shots anyway to get their range. Straight shooting doesn't work like that.
While the wall must be vertical, you can shape it in any continuous path along the ground that you like. It is possible to create cylindrical or square wind walls to enclose specific points.
Longbows wont have arching shots at the ranges combat happens at. I shoot a weak 30lb draw bow. At 30 yards, my shot is pretty much straight. I start to arc for 40 yards. A +1 composite longbow bow would be roughly the equivalent of a 60 lb bow. They can shoot fairly flat arcs to arround 50-60 yards. English longbows went up into the 120+lb range. I would guess that these would have fairly flat arcs out to arround 100 yrds.
The poundage is the ammount of force required to draw the bow back to the place the bow is designed for, usually 28 inches.
Bullocks. It's not relevant given the extreme bonuses that melee has over archery.
It's the "and then" part that's tripping you up.
Melee does not have extreme bonuses over archery when you consider that melee has to waste several attacks just to get into range to attack.
Because monsters never attack archers. All combat is held in a 200' room with archers on one side and the monster on the other and the melee people charging through the middle. There is no way the monster can close with the archer and trip it, or use its AoOs when the archer tries to attack because ranged attacks triggers AoOs.
None of that invalidates what I wrote.
Fighter is likely the ONLY class that could outstrip itself in Ranged combat. Paladins don't get the glut of feats or Fighter only feats or Fighter bonuses to favored weapon.
They don't need them. You could make FighterMan into PaladinMan with very little loss of efficacy and a great deal of improvement against evil targets. Archery only takes 4 feats (point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot), and Paladins get 10. Taking the Weapon Bond option, he'd actually even be a better switch-hitter than FighterMan, too, since he'd be able to power up any weapon he wanted to the precise specifications of the combat.
To make FighterMan into PaladinMan, switch his Wis and Cha and drop all the non-archery feats except weapon focus and improved initiative.
And "Level 20" is not a "Look what I proved" starting point. How about at 12th. With a level 12 wealth level. I don't recall Mighty being that affordable.
Mighty is cheap. It's 100 gold per plus. At level 12, you tell the innkeeper to keep the change for 100g. The example there didn't use ANY capstone feature, so yes, level 20 is a valid proof. It doesn't matter though, because PaladinMan at level 12 can almost do what FighterMan at level 20 did (ie, kill a Balor in two rounds).