None of that invalidates what I wrote.
Only if we are disregarding actual probable occurrences for statistical ability. At which point it is not fair to count time it takes to reach the target against the melee character.
None of that invalidates what I wrote.Only if we are disregarding actual probable occurrences for statistical ability. At which point it is not fair to count time it takes to reach the target against the melee character.
Only if you're disregarding that those same exact points were made and countered to a very unfriendly jury's satisfaction in the thread I linked. It would behoove you to actually read and take the time to understand what you're reading, for once, instead of blindly pressing forward with the certainty of zealotry.
Perhaps you would care to show the magic "OMG ranged combat is uber" math.TWF-Paladin
2H Fighter
Ranged FighterThe ranged characters out-damage the melee counterparts, and they can take full-attacks without having to move or put themselves at risk in melee. Ranged combat does have its flaws, but when it comes to pure damage it beats the rest, for the martial classes at least. A ranged paladin will give an evil dragon, evil outsider or undead creature a complete pummeling, unless it's way above the regular CR, and if it is, how is the rest of the party going to contribute?
Without improved precise shot all those paladin attacks are not hitting.
Ok, this forum is just silly with the cacheing.
Ok, this forum is just silly with the cacheing.
Smurfing right!
Only if you're disregarding that those same exact points were made and countered to a very unfriendly jury's satisfaction in the thread I linked. It would behoove you to actually read and take the time to understand what you're reading, for once, instead of blindly pressing forward with the certainty of zealotry.
None of that invalidates what I wrote.Only if we are disregarding actual probable occurrences for statistical ability. At which point it is not fair to count time it takes to reach the target against the melee character.
If the main point of "archery > melee" is "archery gets 1+ more full attacks than a melee character" then you can't discount anything that prevents archers from taking a full attack, which seems to be what is being done.
If the main point of "archery > melee" is "archery gets 1+ more full attacks than a melee character" then you can't discount anything that prevents archers from taking a full attack, which seems to be what is being done.Only if you're disregarding that those same exact points were made and countered to a very unfriendly jury's satisfaction in the thread I linked. It would behoove you to actually read and take the time to understand what you're reading, for once, instead of blindly pressing forward with the certainty of zealotry.
None of that invalidates what I wrote.Only if we are disregarding actual probable occurrences for statistical ability. At which point it is not fair to count time it takes to reach the target against the melee character.
No. They also get 2 more attacks durring the full attack. That is why they have higher DPR, even when the melee characters get to full attack. Now, they eventually get fewer than a TWF, but theirs are all at close to full BAB, while the TWF is not, and their attacks do more damage than the off hand of a TWF (higher die, greater bonus from deadly aim than power attack, and full str)
The only supposed representation of the paladin being overpowered are the OP's post, and several other posters showed why he had no reason to complain about that. If I don't see better examples of a paladin doing to much I will think they are just making stuff up, especially the post about the underpowered paladin taking over the game.
I keep hearing well my experience is ____. Well then post your experience in detail. I don't debate just to inform. I debate to learn, and it seems neither one is taking place right now. The only time a paladin took out an outsider easily was when it was the party against one of them. Every time there were multiple opponents the battle was not so easy.
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No. They also get 2 more attacks durring the full attack. That is why they have higher DPR, even when the melee characters get to full attack. Now, they eventually get fewer than a TWF, but theirs are all at close to full BAB, while the TWF is not, and their attacks do more damage than the off hand of a TWF (higher die, greater bonus from deadly aim than power attack, and full str)
They can also be forced to melee by a number of options. The archer is getting zero full-attacks against a Wind Wall while the melee is spending the turns to get into full-attack position.
No. They also get 2 more attacks durring the full attack. That is why they have higher DPR, even when the melee characters get to full attack. Now, they eventually get fewer than a TWF, but theirs are all at close to full BAB, while the TWF is not, and their attacks do more damage than the off hand of a TWF (higher die, greater bonus from deadly aim than power attack, and full str)They can also be forced to melee by a number of options. The archer is getting zero full-attacks against a Wind Wall while the melee is spending the turns to get into full-attack position.
You can also neuter melee with fly. and you can shoot ranged from within the melee, just by 5fting away from people. Its not a good idea, and you should get disarmed, but you can.
I'm not saying there are not flaws with ranged. I don't even think its overpowered compared to melee. I just think they are roughly equal in power, and arguing against Cartigan who says it is crap when he obviously doesn't know what he is talkin about.
Ok, this forum is just silly with the cacheing.Smurfing right!
Post to see things that were posted.
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You can also neuter melee with fly. and you can shoot ranged from within the melee, just by 5fting away from people. Its not a good idea, and you should get disarmed, but you can.
I'm not saying there are not flaws with ranged. I don't even think its overpowered compared to melee. I just think they are roughly equal in power, and arguing against Cartigan who says it is crap when he obviously doesn't know what he is talkin about.
Okay then, we're of the same opinion. I can totally see statistically that archery has a higher DPR, but it comes with it's own disadvantages versus melee. I was disagreeing with the people that stated archery was the premier direct damage model. It's viable, but not overpowering. As for fly, a meleer that doesn't have some fly resource past a certain point is an idiot.
Have things changed? In regular DND, 2 CR 7s = CR 9Yes they have.
No, they haven't changed. 2 CR 7's = 6400 XP = CR 9
Two *level 7*'s = CR 8 (as Level 7 NPCs are CR 6).Edit: Smurf
For Cartigan of the "level 12 Paladins can't do archery":
Male Human Paladin 12
Alignment: LG
Str: 14 (+2) [5 points]
Dex: 23 (+6) [10 points, +3 levels, +4 item]
Con: 14 (+2) [5 points]
Int: 9 (-1) [-1 points]
Wis: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Cha: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Class and Racial Abilities:
Aura of Good
Detect Evil
Smite Evil (4/day +5 to hit +12 to damage, +5 to AC, ignore DR of one target; +24 damage vs evil dragons, undead, or outsiders)
Divine Grace (+5 to all saves)
Lay On Hands (13/day, 6d6 healing)
Aura of Courage (immune to fear)
Divine Health (immune to disease)
Mercies (fatigued, sickened, cursed, blinded)
Divine Bond (2/day, +3 bonus)
Aura of Resolve (immune to charm)
Hit Dice: 12d10+36
Hit Points: 106
AC: 22 (10 base, +6 armor, +6 dex)
Init: +10
Speed: 20 ft
Fortitude +17 (8 base, +2 Con, +5 Cha, +2 Resistance)
Reflex +17 (4 base, +6 Dex, +5 Cha, +2 Resistance)
Will +15 (8 base, +0 Wis, +5 Cha, +2 Resistance)
Immune fear, charm
BAB: +12
Ranged Attack vs Green Dragon (using boots of speed, smite evil, rapid shot, and manyshot, firing holy arrows; not doubling smite damage): composite longbow +27/+27/+27/+22/+17 (1d10+5 plus 2d6)
(Attack Breakdown: 12 BAB, +6 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste, +5 smite evil, -2 Rapid Fire)
(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, +7 average damage of 2d6, +2 Strength, +3 Enhancement, +12 smite evil)
(Damage Per Round: 1 attack @ 95% chance to hit for 57 average damage, 2 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 28.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 80% chance to hit for 28.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 55% chance to hit for 28.5 average damage; (0.95*57)+(2*0.95*28.5)+(0.80*28.5)+(0.65*28.5) = 149 average damage)
CMB: +14
CMD: 27
Skills:
Perception +12 (12 ranks, +0 Wis)
Feats:
Point Blank Shot (Human bonus)
Precise Shot (1 HD)
Rapid Shot (3 HD)
Weapon Focus (5 HD)
Manyshot (7 HD)
Improved Initiative (9 HD)
Improved Precise Shot (11 HD)
Equipment:
headband of alluring charisma +6
belt of incredible dexterity +4
+3 composite longbow (mighty +2)
boots of speed
cloak of resistance +2
+2 mithral chain shirt
lesser bracers of archery
20 +1 holy arrows
60 arrows
dagger
Money:
108,000 WBL
-
36,000
16,000
19,000
12,000
4,000
5,000
5,000
7,500
=
3,500
No. They also get 2 more attacks durring the full attack. That is why they have higher DPR, even when the melee characters get to full attack. Now, they eventually get fewer than a TWF, but theirs are all at close to full BAB, while the TWF is not, and their attacks do more damage than the off hand of a TWF (higher die, greater bonus from deadly aim than power attack, and full str)They can also be forced to melee by a number of options. The archer is getting zero full-attacks against a Wind Wall while the melee is spending the turns to get into full-attack position.
Wind Wall can be effective in certain circumstances, but in many cases a Mounted Archer is just going to ride their Mount thru the Wind Wall still doing their Full Attack (at penalty). That's kind of the kicker, that even when they DO have to move, e.g. to get out of threat range or deal with obstacles, they can still get off Full Attacks with a Mount. (Paladins' version of being especially strong). Unless you face a squad of archers, or have multiple mook caster allies, it just isn't worth it in my experience to cast spells like wind wall or protection from arrows (at lower level), because the action cost just doesn't have that much effect for being relatively easily bypassed. Like I said, in some situations the totality of factors WILL make it worthwhile to cast (esp. if you can catch an opposing caster within the effect and force a Concentration check), but it's just that worst case a small amount of the time an archer will be forced to make a single attack that probably is less than a single melee attack. (Besides all the above, there's also the cases where a melee charge is impossible because of terrain but a single move + ranged attack is possible)
I think the idea of halving the Aura of Justice benefit amount is pretty reasonable - though I'm waiting for the next Update/Errata to see if it is clarified whether AoJ is an Emanation or an instant AoE 'spell' allowing your allies to disperse afterwards and still benefit (a fixed radius Emanation is more balanced, IMHO). With that change (half Smite to allies) I would even be happy to either see AoJ's Smite cost reduced to 1 Smite OR maintain it's costing as 2 Smites but include within the same action activating the Paladin's own Smite (coincidentally forcing the same Smite target for Paladin/allies), which must currently be 'spread out' over 2 rounds.
Without improved precise shot all those paladin attacks are not hitting.
The ranged characters out-damage the melee counterparts, and they can take full-attacks without having to move or put themselves at risk in melee. Ranged combat does have its flaws, but when it comes to pure damage it beats the rest, for the martial classes at least. A ranged paladin will give an evil dragon, evil outsider or undead creature a complete pummeling, unless it's way above the regular CR, and if it is, how is the rest of the party going to contribute?
I worded that incorrectly. I was trying to say not as many of the attacks will hit.
For Cartigan of the "level 12 Paladins can't do archery":
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks Zurai. This build shows that to nerf an archer character is not fair because of all the feats that have to go into it. If they have to spend all those feats to keep up with melee, then they should be able to take advantage of whatever they can do. To go into archery leave less room to do anything else.
Wind Wall can be effective in certain circumstances, but in many cases a Mounted Archer is just going to ride their Mount thru the Wind Wall still doing their Full Attack (at penalty). That's kind of the kicker, that even when they DO have to move, e.g. to get out of threat range or deal with obstacles, they can still get off Full Attacks with a Mount. (Paladins' version of being especially strong).No. They also get 2 more attacks durring the full attack. That is why they have higher DPR, even when the melee characters get to full attack. Now, they eventually get fewer than a TWF, but theirs are all at close to full BAB, while the TWF is not, and their attacks do more damage than the off hand of a TWF (higher die, greater bonus from deadly aim than power attack, and full str)They can also be forced to melee by a number of options. The archer is getting zero full-attacks against a Wind Wall while the melee is spending the turns to get into full-attack position.
They get to waste the first round finding out where the windwall is. I don't see a lot of mounted combat, but I would just use something like sleet storm to lock them down if the idea of riding by the wall came up.
This thread has made me realize however that my idea to ignore the soft cover rules may have been a mistake. I will run it by the other DM also.
Archery is overpowered because people detest the idea of anyone doing damage that isn't Beefcakes McFightanman.
It's the same reason people hate the idea of a paladin archer, nevermind that paladins specifically get the ability to smite at range, nevermind the fact that paladins specifically have proficiency with bows, nevermind the fact that only once in the history of D&D were a type of paladins restricted from ranged weapons - the AD&D Cavalier, I believe - and nevermind that, in multiple settings, there are orders with paladins that have longbow as their favored deity weapon. Hell, in Golarion there's specifically a sect of paladins that use bows.
Likewise, smite is overpowered because it's someone that isn't a fighter doing damage.
Thing of it is, if we go down the line of just nerfing everthing, we end up in the same situation we had in 3.5, where rangers and paladins were just awful and useless, and fighter was just as terrible.
Ok I have not read this whole thing and this post is a drop in the bucket...but I do not see an issue here. The paladins shine vs evil things and a few type of critters a few times. Thats it Kinda like a cleric is walking death to undead.
Ya sent him straight at a foe he is made to mangle, I mean that's like sending a rogue up aginest someone who can't see em and going "Woh the rogue is OP as they guy didn't have a chance"
The dragon should have played smart, of coarse an archer paladin would have got him to, maybe not as easy but archer paladin takes alot of work and feats to work right, so that is fine as well
I have a halfling paladin 2/sorcerer 13 (destined) who gets a +12 to his attack rolls and AC when smiting. He also has saving throw modifiers of Fort +31/Ref +28/Will +35 (+37 vs. fear), which all go up whenever he casts a personal spell or is attacked from hiding.
The other players hate that he is essentially invincible.
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Certainly the paladin has excellent saves but how does he have a better animal companion then a druid? Heavy horse doesnt even come close to the big cat in terms of combat strength. Or are you among those that allow the paladin to use most anything for a mount? I think that represents a very big power swing.
I admit my own experience is primarily with the paladin having the weapon bond instead of the mount bond, as my group tends to have alot of encounters...
the arguement about large size creatures not fitting in dungeons is kinda moot. monsters get larger as you level(in general) so the dungeon layout expands. besides that the paladin can summon his mount as a full round action, the druids animal companion is going to have to wait if it wants in. plus the mount starts with a 6 INT so you dont need handle animal< you can just talk to it AND at 11th level it becomes a celestial animal with DR, smite of its own,spell resistance and energy resistance. sure the large cat is a one round blender but it really doesnt have staying power to compare. 11th on its pretty rock solid,
side note: be careful with your +5 holy, keen, Greatsword of speed< your just begging to be sundered. then your screwed
You know what they say about claiming to be invincible...
No I don't. What do they say?
Besides, envious players said it, not I.
You know what they say about claiming to be invincible...No I don't. What do they say?
Besides, envious players said it, not I.
beware the banhammer?
Awwwwwwwww Puts away his +3 Holy Banhammer of Throwing
No no, he's safe. He's not tempting fate and being all prideful.
Sarcasm? Hard to tell with text.
In any case, the character is hardly overpowered. What I'm gaining in defense, I am losing in offense (I could be casting 8th-level spells with a cleric, druid, or wizard of the same level).
side note: be careful with your +5 holy, keen, Greatsword of speed< your just begging to be sundered. then your screwed
The Smite boost to AC applies to CMD as well. That only applies during Smite but check the Magic Item rules:
.That +5 Holy Keen Speed weapon is +11 equivalent - which is impossible for normal magic weapons to beat.
Or does only the 'straight' enhancement bonus count for this, maxing out at +5? (incl. for Paladins)
Since Weapon Bond is an alternate means of enhancing your weapon, I don't think it's subject to the same max +10 equivalent magic weapon normally are, but even if is (dq'ing +5 H/K/S weapons), +10 is alot.
To those debating the merits of archery vs. melee:
I've run several Pathfinder games going back to the beta where players either made fairly optimized archers or took archery based cohorts, I've played archers, fighters and otherwise, in a couple quick play test games, and I've done a whoooooole lot of number crunching during the alpha, beta, and after release, so I can say with some certainty that archery as it stands right now is very, very good. To the point that it can feel overwhelming in comparison to melee options. It's not at all uncommon to see an archer pretty much win a fight on round 1 by beating everyone on initiative (thanks to their high dex) and flat destroying the biggest threats on the board before they can even act. Past about level 8 or 9, in a party with mixed archer/caster characters and melee characters, it starts to feel like the ranged attackers almost have to intentionally let a few targets live, just so the melee types have something to do.
As it stands right now, I feel like archery is a little too good in comparison to melee, particularly for fighters, who sacrifice very little in terms of overall AC and survivability but gain quite a bit in terms of power. I'm not sure the problem is really archery though, so much as it is melee types not having any really good options for dealing significant damage on the move.
The Smite boost to AC applies to CMD as well. That only applies during Smite but check the Magic Item rules:
.
That +5 Holy Keen Speed weapon is +11 equivalent - which is impossible for normal magic weapons to beat.
Or does only the 'straight' enhancement bonus count for this, maxing out at +5? (incl. for Paladins)
No pre-epic weapon can have higher than a +5 enhancement bonus. The "bonus equivalent" is not an enhancement bonus, just that "+X" in front of the weapon's name. As a side note, Paizo has ruled (poorly, IMO, but it's official) that Paladins cannot enhance their weapons past +10 total bonuses, making that +5 holy keen speed greatsword an illegal weapon.
the arguement about large size creatures not fitting in dungeons is kinda moot. monsters get larger as you level(in general) so the dungeon layout expands. besides that the paladin can summon his mount as a full round action, the druids animal companion is going to have to wait if it wants in. plus the mount starts with a 6 INT so you dont need handle animal< you can just talk to it AND at 11th level it becomes a celestial animal with DR, smite of its own,spell resistance and energy resistance. sure the large cat is a one round blender but it really doesnt have staying power to compare. 11th on its pretty rock solid,
side note: be careful with your +5 holy, keen, Greatsword of speed< your just begging to be sundered. then your screwed
Its not moot when you have the inevitable 5ft wide hallway/doorway. The space you fight the monster in may be large, but the space you move to it is not always going to be.
I have a halfling paladin 2/sorcerer 13 (destined) who gets a +12 to his attack rolls and AC when smiting. He also has saving throw modifiers of Fort +31/Ref +28/Will +35 (+37 vs. fear), which all go up whenever he casts a personal spell or is attacked from hiding.
The other players hate that he is essentially invincible.
I understand you get your charisma bonus to your saves, but how high is your charisma?
I am thinking it is around a 29, but that is only a +9 modifier.If it is above 29 how did you get it that high
20 cha at character creation
+3 levels 4,8,12
+6 headband that gives +6 to cha
------------------------------------------
+9 from pally class
+9 from pally class
+5 cloak of resistance
----
+14 to all saves
Where are the rest of the bonuses to saves coming from?
PS: This is not a challenge to you. I am doing this more to learn how to do it myself. I had a paladin in my game with a fort save of about 30 at level 10 or 11. I just forgot to ask him how he did it before he moved away.
the arguement about large size creatures not fitting in dungeons is kinda moot. monsters get larger as you level(in general) so the dungeon layout expands.
side note: be careful with your +5 holy, keen, Greatsword of speed< your just begging to be sundered. then your screwed
I have a tiger in CoT. Published adventures and some DM's don't care that you did not find a way to account for your oversized pet. Don't depend on expansion of the dungeon.
Most DM's don't sunder since taking away an item is worse than death in the opinion of many players, and those players that have sundering DM's normally have a way to take care of the issue. Some call it metagaming, but every DM has a way he/she likes to do things, and you adjust or you die.
No pre-epic weapon can have higher than a +5 enhancement bonus. The "bonus equivalent" is not an enhancement bonus, just that "+X" in front of the weapon's name. As a side note, Paizo has ruled (poorly, IMO, but it's official) that Paladins cannot enhance their weapons past +10 total bonuses, making that +5 holy keen speed greatsword an illegal weapon.The Smite boost to AC applies to CMD as well. That only applies during Smite but check the Magic Item rules:
.
That +5 Holy Keen Speed weapon is +11 equivalent - which is impossible for normal magic weapons to beat.
Or does only the 'straight' enhancement bonus count for this, maxing out at +5? (incl. for Paladins)
Cool, thanks. Yeah, it seems hugely poorly worded given Weapon Bond DOES go out of it's way to say you can't exceed the +5 straight-enhancement limit, yet doesn't do so for the special enhancement-equivalent abilities. So you're just supposed to assume that even though it's not specifically barred like straight-enhancements are, that your Class Ability is supposed to go to waste. Has this been posted to an Errata thread?
Wraith, you're forgetting halfling luck bonus to saves and the class save progressions. Although admittedly I'm not sure how he got them that high.
He still says he has a +12 Cha mod at level 15 (he says he gets +12 to hit and to AC when he smites, which would require a 34 Cha). The only way for that to be is to break the wealth by level. It requires a tome of leadership and influence +5, which costs more than half of the 240,000 gold available to a level 15 PC.
20 base
+3 levels 4, 8, 12
+6 enhancement
=
29
That requires another +5, and the only other even vaguely permanent bonus to Charisma is a tome, which costs 137,500.
No pre-epic weapon can have higher than a +5 enhancement bonus. The "bonus equivalent" is not an enhancement bonus, just that "+X" in front of the weapon's name. As a side note, Paizo has ruled (poorly, IMO, but it's official) that Paladins cannot enhance their weapons past +10 total bonuses, making that +5 holy keen speed greatsword an illegal weapon.The Smite boost to AC applies to CMD as well. That only applies during Smite but check the Magic Item rules:
.
That +5 Holy Keen Speed weapon is +11 equivalent - which is impossible for normal magic weapons to beat.
Or does only the 'straight' enhancement bonus count for this, maxing out at +5? (incl. for Paladins)
I think its silly also. I don't think the paladin's special bonuses should count against what can go on the sword.
Wraith, you're forgetting halfling luck bonus to saves and the class save progressions. Although admittedly I'm not sure how he got them that high.
I did forget the halfing bonus, but I did not forget the class base save. I was trying to get any save modifiers high enough so that once I subtract them from his total I would get the class base save.
Even with the +2 I am still missing some points here and there.
Edit: The guy in my campaign was boosted in some way by the deck of many things. Now that I think about it he was so lucky with the deck he was around level 16 or 17 in a level 12 party.
I understand you get your charisma bonus to your saves, but how high is your charisma?
Charisma score is 34.
18 base
6 headband
5 tome (easy to get with Craft Wondrous Item)
3 level bonuses
2 racial adjustment
That gives me a modifier of +12.
Now for the saves (fort/ref/will)...
+7/+4/+11 base
+12/+12/+12 divine grace
+5/+5/+5 cloak of resistance +5
+3/+3/+3 ability modifiers
+2/+2/+2 great fortitude, lightning reflexes, and iron will
+1/+1/+1 halfling racial bonus
+1/+1/+1 luck stone
Situational bonuses to saves include...
+6/+6/+6 touch of destiny on self
+6/+6/+6 bloodline arcana (does not stack with luck stone or fated bonuses)
+3/+3/+3 fated (does not stack with luck stone or bloodline arcana bonuses)
Make no mistake, it took a lot of investment to become nigh invincible towards unusual attack forms. Even so, it was easy. All it took was a good race/class choice, Craft Wondrous Item, and some forethought.
Wraith, you're forgetting halfling luck bonus to saves and the class save progressions. Although admittedly I'm not sure how he got them that high.He still says he has a +12 Cha mod at level 15 (he says he gets +12 to hit and to AC when he smites, which would require a 34 Cha). The only way for that to be is to break the wealth by level. It requires a tome of leadership and influence +5, which costs more than half of the 240,000 gold available to a level 15 PC.
20 base
+3 levels 4, 8, 12
+6 enhancement
=
29That requires another +5, and the only other even vaguely permanent bonus to Charisma is a tome, which costs 137,500.
Ok. That was why I could not recreate the character within the rules/guidelines. I thought my Pathfinder-fu was failing.
They could be using a much higher point buy than anyone else. Characters in my Shackled City game started with over 20 in a couple places. And if that's true, the other characters have little to complain about.
Or crafting. Yeah.
We are accustomed to 32-pt buy in v3.5, so when we switched to Pathfinder we chose to go with the closest official equivalent of 25-pt buy (which roughly ends up being the same).
Believe you me, when your GM allows you to spend your starting funds on item creation (effectively getting most things at half price) the Craft Wondrous Item feat becomes a no brainer choice for most.
They could be using a much higher point buy than anyone else. Characters in my Shackled City game started with over 20 in a couple places. And if that's true, the other characters have little to complain about.
Or crafting. Yeah.
That game needs a high point buy. Once I find players brave enough I will have to try my hand at running it.