So what are you supposed to do with the Summoner?


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Sovereign Court

I'm finally sinking my teeth into this class and I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the Summoner. The Eidolon is obvious, make a nasty critter that has lots of attacks and mauls things.

Aside from the Summoner standing around taking full round actions and spamming the field with more monsters, what else can you do with this guy? He's got a medium BAB, so it seems as if you could build up a magic buffed fighter, but is that really the way to go?

Say you get your Cha up to 20, that means you get 8 summon monster spells per day. If you assume that there are 4 encounters a day, and each encounter is roughly 5 rounds long, then you've got two summons per encounter per day.

Now the extended duration of the summoned monsters is great, you can from time to time be able to cast it prior to the encounter, perhaps before he head into a dangerous area you could cast it, send in the monster to aggro the encounter and then let the party jump into the fray.

With the 20 charisma, I could see starting with an ok strength, perhaps 14, and then building up a fighter type with 3 spells per day to start. That means that for most of the encounters each day you could enlarge person yourself and then armed with a long spear and spiked gauntlets just poke away at things while the Eidolon is running around clawing and biting things.

So an encounter would roll out as:

hopefully pre-cast at least one summon monster, send ahead to trigger traps and aggro encounter...

Round 1: Once the encounter begins you send the Eidolon to go maul something while you kick off a second summons.
Round 2: Plop the second summoned creature in a good spot, then cast enlarge person.
Round 3: Poke things with long spear
Round 4: Poke again...
Round 5: Poke again...

rinse and repeat for the day.

What else?

I guess ultimately what I'm trying to figure out is what feats to take and ultimately what stat to dump.


IMO, it's best to leave the Summoner at 16 Charisma. His DCs are going to suck even if you max Charisma, because you're getting very delayed access to spells, and you have very few spells with DCs anyway. I'd just start with a 12 or 14 Charisma and either bump it up with leveling points or just use a headband of alluring charisma (by the time you get 3rd level spells, you should be able to afford and/or find a +4 headband).

Honestly, Summoners make pretty good fighter-mages (aka "gish"). Don't worry too much about Charisma, Int, or Wis, and invest in Strength and Con. You don't have any swift actions as class abilities and you won't be using Quicken Spell much if at all, so Arcane Strike works well for you. Toughness doesn't hurt either, since it actually gives both you AND your Eidolon more hit points, effectively. You can wear light armor. Get a minor cloak of displacement ASAP. Focus on buffing spells, preferably long-duration ones like barkskin, and utility spells like teleport.

Dark Archive

The Summoner has a few spells that might be useful in a fight. Grease, for instance.

Otherwise, use a crossbow on anything not already in melee with your critters (or allies), or a longspear on anyone that *is* already in melee with your critters (or allies). You can safely dump Wis and Int, having good Will saves and no huge need for skills, leaving you with a high score in Charisma, and moderate scores in some combination of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Some light armor, medium BAB and d8 hit points puts you up there with the Cleric at low levels (and possibly a nudge ahead, stat-wise, if the Cleric wanted both decent Wisdom *and* Charisma scores).

Remember that summoned critters go on your action, so Improved Initiative counts double, triple, or more, for you. It's a decent feat when it only affects your actions. Having it affect your posse is just succulent gravy.


I'm currently playing a Summoner (Halfling). I have a 21 CHA currently, and find the bonus spells useful, since all of my spellcasting is being used for buffing, mostly on my eidolon. Ialso have a high Dex, and find that the Eidolon makes a good meat shield (especially being able to syphon my hp) and with my high dex my best combat ability is with ranged weapons. I think it makes most sense to make him ranged, since you probably have another tank in the party already (fighter, paladin, druid, etc...) and it keeps the summoner in a position to cast outside of threatened squares if needed. So, that's my recommendation.


+1 to what Zurai said.
A couple level dip in Paladin helps.


"So what are you supposed to do with the Summoner?"

Summon! :D

Sovereign Court

Beorn the Bear wrote:
since you probably have another tank in the party already (fighter, paladin, druid, etc...)

Why would anyone play a tank in a group that had an Eidolon (and the Eidolon's automatically gets a henchman caster for buffs)?


Andrew Phillips wrote:
Why would anyone play a tank in a group that had an Eidolon (and the Eidolon's automatically gets a henchman caster for buffs)?

Because other classes are better at it?


Zurai wrote:
Andrew Phillips wrote:
Why would anyone play a tank in a group that had an Eidolon (and the Eidolon's automatically gets a henchman caster for buffs)?
Because other classes are better at it?

eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.


Mok wrote:

I'm finally sinking my teeth into this class and I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the Summoner. The Eidolon is obvious, make a nasty critter that has lots of attacks and mauls things.

Aside from the Summoner standing around taking full round actions and spamming the field with more monsters, what else can you do with this guy? He's got a medium BAB, so it seems as if you could build up a magic buffed fighter, but is that really the way to go?

First, the SLA summons are standard actions. That means one tactic that you can use is to ready summons...

Second, a medium BAB does not mean that you can be in melee. You are an unbuffed cleric, or more to the point a social rogue who's not going for sneak attacks!

I would suggest a stealth buffing build. Concentrate on buffing for the most part both via spell and umd, be hidden/invisible a lot and have most of your 'direct' offense as summons and eidolon.

While you do suffer a DC loss over pure casters it's not much more than 1-2 points, which if that's what you are relying upon is an issue, but as a side project against weaknesses it's more than enough.

Here's a halfling summoner I've been thinking on (20pt buy):
STR 5 (7-2racial)
INT 14
WIS 7
DEX 16 (14+2racial)
CON 14
CHA 19 (17+2racial)

Skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Stealth, UMD, then spare ranks (Handle Animal 1, then Spellcraft/Linguistics, etc). (When UMD becomes +19 don't advance it further).

Feats: Spell focus Conj (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), Skill focus Stealth (5th), Hellcat Stealth (7th).

Roles: Party face, support (buffing/curing), tank (via summons), glass cannon shock troop (pouncing eidolon).

-James


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.

Or they'll just put you into cramped spaces.

Ask anyone that played in a living campaign how travelling with a huge croc/snake was as a druid. The first words out of their mouths are likely reduce animal which lasts hours/level.

While the summoner has options here, they don't easily last that long and take a good deal of work, especially compared to the druid.

-James


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:


eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.

Okay, you build that Eidolon, and then let me, as the DM, see what happens when I dominate it.... A single Eidolon would never be enough tanking for a whole group. Especially since it can be banished, and whoops, your tank is gone. Party versatility and multiple characters being to be able to plug multiple holes in what you need for a successful adventuring group is extremely important. Just relying on a summoner to provide the tanks is utterly foolish, and I as a DM would take almost no time for me to prove to the PC's that they need another tack to survive.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.

You start off talking about tank and then immediately digress into things that have nothing whatsoever to do with tanking and end up going way into crazyland. Quite impressive.

Grand Lodge

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Andrew Phillips wrote:
Why would anyone play a tank in a group that had an Eidolon (and the Eidolon's automatically gets a henchman caster for buffs)?
Because other classes are better at it?
eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.

I don't think this works. They don't get iterative attacks or such. They would need to take some major penalties at best to make it happen, and I think the penalties would easily to be so great as to make almost every attack have no chance of really being useful. But essentially I don't think they would get more than one attack with manufactured weapons anyway, regardless of the number of limbs they have, without amassing huge penalties.

I think the only way as GM I would allow it is if the beastie took the Two Weapon Fighting feat for every one of its limbs it wanted to fight with.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Andrew Phillips wrote:
Why would anyone play a tank in a group that had an Eidolon (and the Eidolon's automatically gets a henchman caster for buffs)?
Because other classes are better at it?
eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.

Huge can hard to use when you can't fit into the room. I actually tried to get one of my players to use one.

Even my large tiger has issues fitting in all the battles. I am a druid in CoT.


in related news what does a fighter do?


Krome wrote:
They don't get iterative attacks or such.

Yes, they do. And they don't need to take TWF for each hand; there's a feat in the Bestiary called Multi-Weapon Fighting that does that for them. The big question is how Improved and Greater TWF interact with MWF.

Regardless, damage dealing has nothing to do with tanking, and it's already known to the Paizoites that Eidolons can still wriggle their way out of the number of attacks restriction.

Shadow Lodge

Mok wrote:
The Eidolon is obvious, make a nasty critter that has lots of attacks and mauls things.

I do not approve of this message, at least not entirely.

Yes, you can make a Mini-Death, but that is not all you can do!

Stealthy spider, intimidating dinosaur, giant land/sea crab, flying serpent, kick-@$$ mount, etc, etc...

Or pick something from your favorite show(one you have today or one you had as a kid), and make the Eidolon fit that description.

Make it your Eidolon, not the Hulk with tentacles.

Sovereign Court

Zurai wrote:
Krome wrote:
They don't get iterative attacks or such.

Yes, they do. And they don't need to take TWF for each hand; there's a feat in the Bestiary called Multi-Weapon Fighting that does that for them. The big question is how Improved and Greater TWF interact with MWF.

Regardless, damage dealing has nothing to do with tanking, and it's already known to the Paizoites that Eidolons can still wriggle their way out of the number of attacks restriction.

I do not believe any feat in the Bestiary is allowed for players, their mounts, summons, eidolons or pets. Getting ready for work and do not have time to search for it. Perhaps someone can back me up on this or correct me.

Sovereign Court

Harkaelian wrote:
I do not believe any feat in the Bestiary is allowed for players, their mounts, summons, eidolons or pets. Getting ready for work and do not have time to search for it. Perhaps someone can back me up on this or correct me.

From the PRD

Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).

Multiattack (Combat)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5

It appears the monster feats are no different than any other feats, if the prerequisites are met the creature in question qualifies.


Only if the GM allows and they are not allowed in organized play if I recall.

Grand Lodge

Zurai wrote:
Krome wrote:
They don't get iterative attacks or such.

Yes, they do. And they don't need to take TWF for each hand; there's a feat in the Bestiary called Multi-Weapon Fighting that does that for them. The big question is how Improved and Greater TWF interact with MWF.

Regardless, damage dealing has nothing to do with tanking, and it's already known to the Paizoites that Eidolons can still wriggle their way out of the number of attacks restriction.

Okay, Multiweapon Fighting would work. Big penalties but acceptable.

I just looked at the chart for the Eidolon. There are NO iterative attacks at all on their chart. EVERY other critter that has iterative attacks has them listed. Is this a typo, a mistake by Paizo? Because from what I am looking at there is no iterative attacks at all.

BUT, yeah you could make a multi-limbed Eidolon and until 6th level all of your attacks are at penalties, and finally at 13th level you get to roll with no penalties, and at 20th level you finally get to attack at +9/+5... at that level I really can't see it hitting anything at all. It would LOOK really cool when missing though, I give you that.

I presume you are taking Limbs multiple times and bought Weapon Training (probably paid the extra cost for all Martial Weapons).

I don't see a great way to get more attacks. Either use the max number of natural attacks, or use Multiweapon Fighting and accept the hefty penalties.

Sczarni

^--- +1 to Zurai et al.

Reach weapon, ranged attacks, summon-death via doom bugs. That's what a summoner does.

or turn into a snake. although that never helps.


IMHO one big attack is better than a lot of smaller ones because:

1. you can do more damage when you charge with it, or just plain old move and attack
2. the attack bonus tends to be significantly higher
3. it is less dice to roll, therefore the game runs quicker
4. it goes through DR better (because it tends to do more damage per attack)
5. it is more powerful when used for attacks of opportunity

I know there are benefits to having many attacks, i just think there are more benefits to one big attack


a correction to what i just said:

4. it goes through DR better because the reduction is only applied once. a number of smaller attacks runs a higher risk of being completely nullified by DR.


Zurai wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
eidolons are much better tanks than fighters, the 8 attack limit only applies to "Natural" weapons, just go for lots of arms and manufactured weapons, power attack whilst wielding lots of greatswords, or keen falchions, the multiweapon fighting chain makes it even more broken. it appears quite easy to get a strength score in the 50's, and a consitution score not too far behind. before magic items. basically the thing once it is huge will be invincible. it's your own personal huge sized mass greatsword wielding meat grinder. that smart DMs will ban. by banning the class.
You start off talking about tank and then immediately digress into things that have nothing whatsoever to do with tanking and end up going way into crazyland. Quite impressive.

+1 Zurai.

Also, any DM that allows you to get around the attack limit by claiming it applies only to natural attacks is a moron who deserves exactly what he gets when his players explain how Pun Pun or some similar nonsense is totally legitimate. The intent behind it was clear - to prevent exactly what you describe.

Also, you utterly fail to acknowledge the large issues that appear with your huge sized monsters in most locations (e.g. any battle not in a giant open field).


Well, it depends on what sort of feats you have access to, I suppose. Given access to any 3.5 feats you could try:

1st: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy Conjuration.
3rd: Augmented Summoning
5th: Frostfell Summoning (forget the real name.. from frostfell!)

for your eidolon..

1st: Martial Maneuver (maybe crusader strike)
3rd: Iron guard's Glare or even Martial Spirit

those are good low-level feats for you and your eidolon, IMHO. Have a humanoid with enhanced, 10 foot range, slam attack. 2d6 with a slam, and iron guard's glare forces most people to fight the eidolon rather than you. You pelt them with Acid Splash and in doing so, keep them stuck in the poison cloud for an additional -2 on pretty much everything.

If you already have decent tanking, martial spirit on the slam helps build you or the eidolon back up slowly... or even the actual tank. Once per combat you use cruader's strike as a CLW.

When you summon creatures, which you probably do, they're strong, tough, and dealing an additional 1d6 cold damage with their attacks.


Zurai wrote:
Some great stuff

+5

Points for correct use of summoner and pointing out peoples misconception of the Eidolons.


Krome wrote:
I just looked at the chart for the Eidolon. There are NO iterative attacks at all on their chart. EVERY other critter that has iterative attacks has them listed. Is this a typo, a mistake by Paizo? Because from what I am looking at there is no iterative attacks at all.

Iterative attacks don't have to be listed on a chart. Iterative attacks are a function of having a BAB of 6 or higher and using a manufactured weapon. Any creature that fulfills both those criteria can make iterative attacks.

Peter Stewart wrote:
Also, any DM that allows you to get around the attack limit by claiming it applies only to natural attacks is a moron

No, the attack limit specifically and explicitly states that it only applies to evolutions that grant natural attacks.

But, like I said, the issue was acknowledged during the playtest so I'm sure it'll get fixed before August.

james maissen wrote:
Second, a medium BAB does not mean that you can be in melee. You are an unbuffed cleric, or more to the point a social rogue who's not going for sneak attacks!

I'm sorry, that's silly. A medium BAB is plenty good enough to be in melee. Sneak attack doesn't affect chance to hit, so saying the summoner doesn't have sneak attacks is completely irrelevant (also possibly untrue, as he can his Eidolon can take Precising Striking and get +1d6 sneak attack when flanking the same foe). And "you are an unbuffed cleric"? What's to prevent the Summoner from buffing himself? He's got plenty of good ones, at least as many as the Cleric, and he casts all his spells spontaneously so he doesn't have to worry about memorizing too many or too few buffs.


Zurai wrote:


james maissen wrote:
Second, a medium BAB does not mean that you can be in melee. You are an unbuffed cleric, or more to the point a social rogue who's not going for sneak attacks!
I'm sorry, that's silly. A medium BAB is plenty good enough to be in melee. Sneak attack doesn't affect chance to hit, so saying the summoner doesn't have sneak attacks is completely irrelevant (also possibly untrue, as he can his Eidolon can take Precising Striking and get +1d6 sneak attack when flanking the same foe). And "you are an unbuffed cleric"? What's to prevent the Summoner from buffing himself? He's got plenty of good ones, at least as many as the Cleric, and he casts all his spells spontaneously so he doesn't have to worry about memorizing too many or too few buffs.

I'm sorry, are you being intentionally obtuse?

Or do we just have different levels of melee fighters? I'm guessing its the former.

Anyway, my suggestion is that you pick something for the summoner to actually be good in, rather than sub-par, YMMV.

-James


james maissen wrote:


Or do we just have different levels of melee fighters? I'm guessing its the former.

Anyway, my suggestion is that you pick something for the summoner to actually be good in, rather than sub-par, YMMV.

-James

Summoners can be good fighters. They are not an unbuffed cleric, they have buffs. Haste, enlarge person, etc. They can buff themselves rather well actually. Make a summoners main stat strength, give him fighting feats and he will be pretty descent at fighting. As good as a fighter? No but hes not supposed to be, because he can summon beasties and has Big E to kick ass for him.


Zurai wrote:


james maissen wrote:
Second, a medium BAB does not mean that you can be in melee. You are an unbuffed cleric, or more to the point a social rogue who's not going for sneak attacks!
I'm sorry, that's silly. A medium BAB is plenty good enough to be in melee. Sneak attack doesn't affect chance to hit, so saying the summoner doesn't have sneak attacks is completely irrelevant (also possibly untrue, as he can his Eidolon can take Precising Striking and get +1d6 sneak attack when flanking the same foe). And "you are an unbuffed cleric"? What's to prevent the Summoner from buffing himself? He's got plenty of good ones, at least as many as the Cleric, and he casts all his spells spontaneously so he doesn't have to worry about memorizing too many or too few buffs.

I have to agree entirely. The Summoner can go into melee just about as well as a Bard. The fact that he gets a giant monster to fight next to him instead of musical buffs is irrelevant. He gets a bunch of great buffs and can then go fighting in melee without much issue. About 1/2 the people I have heard of using Eidolons are doing this. The others send their summoner off to run away and only cast buffs when needed.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with augmented summoning for the summoner. I know it sounds weird, but the spell focus feat makes me think its not worth the 2 feat sink.


There is still alot of confusion regarding the E. like he is and isn't summoned, can he take either PC feats or monsterous feats...

The feat selections being very vague in the rules...

From discussion above

They don't get iterative attacks or such.

Yes, they do. And they don't need to take TWF for each hand; there's a feat in the Bestiary called Multi-Weapon Fighting that does that for them. The big question is how Improved and Greater TWF interact with MWF.

Now my input can the E. take feats from the Beatiary (is the E. a monster?)?


Freddy Honeycutt wrote:
Now my input can the E. take feats from the Beatiary (is the E. a monster?)?

You don't have to be a monster to take feats from the Bestiary. Bestiary feats aren't allowed in society play, but there's note either in the Bestiary itself or somewhere in the Core Rulebook (I forget where, exactly) that states that the Bestiary feats are fair game if the PCs qualify. It specifically uses Craft Construct as an example.


That means either clarification from PF officially or whatever the DM/player agree is appropriate.

It does open some interesting ideas...


Zurai wrote:
Freddy Honeycutt wrote:
Now my input can the E. take feats from the Beatiary (is the E. a monster?)?
You don't have to be a monster to take feats from the Bestiary. Bestiary feats aren't allowed in society play, but there's note either in the Bestiary itself or somewhere in the Core Rulebook (I forget where, exactly) that states that the Bestiary feats are fair game if the PCs qualify. It specifically uses Craft Construct as an example.
Bestiary SRD wrote:


Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).

Which is generally interpreted as "Players can take monster feats with DM approval".

Scarab Sages

Zurai wrote:


Iterative attacks don't have to be listed on a chart. Iterative attacks are a function of having a BAB of 6 or higher and using a manufactured weapon. Any creature that fulfills both those criteria can make iterative attacks.

Creatures with natural attacks do not get multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus. You can also find proof of this by glancing through the Bestiary at any creature with a higher than +6 Base Attack Bonus, as they still only have one attack per type.

Pathfinder RPG Core wrote:


Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus.

Your God of Knowledge,

Nethys


Nethys wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Iterative attacks don't have to be listed on a chart. Iterative attacks are a function of having a BAB of 6 or higher and using a manufactured weapon. Any creature that fulfills both those criteria can make iterative attacks.
Creatures with natural attacks do not get multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus. You can also find proof of this by glancing through the Bestiary at any creature with a higher than +6 Base Attack Bonus, as they still only have one attack per type.

Really? Then why do Balors get iterative attacks with their weapons? They have slam attacks, after all.

It could be because you're not reading very carefully (something I find distressingly common in your rules discussions). The section you quote only refers to iterative attacks with natural attacks, not to all iterative attacks.

Scarab Sages

What? I only meant natural attacks. I am well aware that attacks with manufactured weapons allow you to take multiple attacks, including said Balor.

Nethys wrote:


Creatures with natural attacks do not get multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus. You can also find proof of this by glancing through the Bestiary at any creature with a higher than +6 Base Attack Bonus, as they still only have one attack per type.

I suppose you could read that as me saying that any creature possessing a natural attack is thus immune to multiple attacks... but that just seems silly. I was merely replying to your claim that any creature with a higher than +6 bab got multiple attacks (in the context of natural attacks) and wanted to point out that you can't take multiple attacks with natural weapons. Manufactured ones, sure. I don't dispute that.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys


Nethys wrote:
What? I only meant natural attacks. I am well aware that attacks with manufactured weapons allow you to take multiple attacks, including said Balor.

Then why did you respond at all? What I said -- and you quoted -- was that any creature with +6 or more BAB and a manufactured weapon could make iterative attacks. Which is what is being discussed in this thread. Not a single person in this thread stated that an Eidolon could make iterative attacks with its natural attacks.

Scarab Sages

I admit to being partially blind in both eyes. Apologies for skimming, I did miss the part on manufactured weapons. Think of me as the old grandfather, one that is rarely wrong on the issues of rules but seems to pop in on random discussions.

"So I was thinking about making a half-orc rogue."
"Shield spikes and the Bashing quality stack!"
"..."

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
Zurai wrote:


james maissen wrote:
Second, a medium BAB does not mean that you can be in melee. You are an unbuffed cleric, or more to the point a social rogue who's not going for sneak attacks!
I'm sorry, that's silly. A medium BAB is plenty good enough to be in melee. Sneak attack doesn't affect chance to hit, so saying the summoner doesn't have sneak attacks is completely irrelevant (also possibly untrue, as he can his Eidolon can take Precising Striking and get +1d6 sneak attack when flanking the same foe). And "you are an unbuffed cleric"? What's to prevent the Summoner from buffing himself? He's got plenty of good ones, at least as many as the Cleric, and he casts all his spells spontaneously so he doesn't have to worry about memorizing too many or too few buffs.

I'm sorry, are you being intentionally obtuse?

Or do we just have different levels of melee fighters? I'm guessing its the former.

Anyway, my suggestion is that you pick something for the summoner to actually be good in, rather than sub-par, YMMV.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'sub-par'. Just because you are not the best at something doesn't mean you are worthless. Summoners are not going to compete with fighters dishing out damage in melee but they can do a pretty decent job helping the eidolon and the fighter.

One of the things I like about the summoner is you can do a lot of different things with the class. I made an archer summoner but my wife's made a pretty solid melee summoner. You can take the class in a lot of different directions and have it work well.


I'd like to mention that if you're going to go the melee path, getting the Outflank feat for you and the Eidolon could help a lot to compensate for the lackluster base attack.

Teamwork feats in general could prove to be good choices for the summoner+eidolon since you can pretty much guarantee they'll see use.


eidolons are mini death machines, and with the right investment in constitution can be tanks too. huge creatures may have space issues, but only in tiny rooms and corridors that are less than 15 feet wide, oh wait, there are squeezing rules. how do you mitigate the damage reduction, multiwield greatswords, not double the amount of longswords. which with your multiple sets of arms is possible. and gives you the benefits of 2handing several times over.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
eidolons are mini death machines, and with the right investment in constitution can be tanks too.

"Tanking" involves more than just hit points -- but even then, Eidolons will almost never have as many hit points as a full BAB PC because they lose too many hit dice and don't get a maximized first hit die.

Quote:
huge creatures may have space issues, but only in tiny rooms and corridors that are less than 15 feet wide, oh wait, there are squeezing rules.

First, you can't squeeze a 15 foot creature into a 5 foot space without using Escape Artist, which very few Huge Eidolons will invest in. That includes most doors, even in 10+ foot wide corridors.

Second, squeezing is a major combat impediment. It gives the squeezing creature -4 to hit and -4 to AC. Using Escape Artist to squeeze prevents attacking entirely, gives -4 to AC, and makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

Quote:
how do you mitigate the damage reduction

The same way you mitigate it in any other PC. You are aware of mantles of faith, right? Basically slotless (takes up the "chest" slot, which is NOT the same slot armor takes up, and only a handful of other items use) DR 5/evil.


Zurai wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
eidolons are mini death machines, and with the right investment in constitution can be tanks too.

"Tanking" involves more than just hit points -- but even then, Eidolons will almost never have as many hit points as a full BAB PC because they lose too many hit dice and don't get a maximized first hit die.

Quote:
huge creatures may have space issues, but only in tiny rooms and corridors that are less than 15 feet wide, oh wait, there are squeezing rules.

First, you can't squeeze a 15 foot creature into a 5 foot space without using Escape Artist, which very few Huge Eidolons will invest in. That includes most doors, even in 10+ foot wide corridors.

Second, squeezing is a major combat impediment. It gives the squeezing creature -4 to hit and -4 to AC. Using Escape Artist to squeeze prevents attacking entirely, gives -4 to AC, and makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

Quote:
how do you mitigate the damage reduction
The same way you mitigate it in any other PC. You are aware of mantles of faith, right? Basically slotless (takes up the "chest" slot, which is NOT the same slot armor takes up, and only a handful of other items use) DR 5/evil.

oh, you got me.

but here is something to look at.

squeeze, oh wait, with the collossal strength of 50 or more that most huge eidolons have, they don't need to squeeze, they just need to dismantle the structure through thier massive strength, plenty of dust to go around. the rogue will never need to buy blinding powder again.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
squeeze, oh wait, with the collossal strength of 50 or more that most huge eidolons have, they don't need to squeeze, they just need to dismantle the structure through thier massive strength, plenty of dust to go around. the rogue will never need to buy blinding powder again.

First, a level 20 Huge Bipedal Eidolon only has 44 strength. That's a +17 on a Strength check. Second, the Break DC for a 1 foot thick masonry (ie dungeon) wall is 35, which requires a roll of 18 or higher, and the Break DC for a 3 foot thick hewn stone (ie cavern) wall is 50, which is entirely impossible.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do not fall into what I like to call "the crossbow trap." If your summoner is going to be making ranged attacks, use a pumped-up magic bow with a pair of bracers of lesser archery. Your iterative attacks will thank you.

If you insist on your eidolon having a bracer item (for added armor perhaps), pay x1.5 the cost on your bracers of archery to make them slotless. Totally worth it when compared to the alternative of firing (at best) one crossbow bolt each round and doing NOTHING else (since you will be too busy reloading).

I find that summoners with Mounted Combat, high physical scores, maxed ranks in Ride, the improved skill evolution in ride (if you are high enough level to steal evolutions), and a good bow can generally really get around the battlefield, protect his mount/eidolon while being protected by the eidolon, all the while pelting enemies with arrows and allies with buffs.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
I find that summoners with Mounted Combat, high physical scores, maxed ranks in Ride, the improved skill evolution in ride (if you are high enough level to steal evolutions), and a good bow can generally really get around the battlefield, protect his mount/eidolon while being protected by the eidolon, all the while pelting enemies with arrows and allies with buffs.

I played a mounted Summoner for a one-shot game, and it was great until a stinking cloud spell got dropped on us.

Turn the Eidolon invisible and make it look like the Summoner is riding nothing...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
squeeze, oh wait, with the collossal strength of 50 or more that most huge eidolons have, they don't need to squeeze, they just need to dismantle the structure through thier massive strength, plenty of dust to go around. the rogue will never need to buy blinding powder again.
First, a level 20 Huge Bipedal Eidolon only has 44 strength. That's a +17 on a Strength check. Second, the Break DC for a 1 foot thick masonry (ie dungeon) wall is 35, which requires a roll of 18 or higher, and the Break DC for a 3 foot thick hewn stone (ie cavern) wall is 50, which is entirely impossible.

Minor nitpick: A humanoid eidolon could potentially have 57 strength.

16 base
16 size
08 evolutions
06 belt of strength
05 manual of strength
04 hit dice
02 enlarge person (via share spell)

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