I still shudder somewhat considering the havoc that can be wrought by a class that can use its highest level Summon Monster multiple times per day, as a standard action, while being Invisible, and with no V,S,M components to give himself away, place the grappler, uhh, I mean critter(s) in as advantageous a position as possible, and have it act immediately while being nigh undisruptable. And that eidolon's pretty nice to have too.
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Then what is "ability focus" for?
It's not an exception. When the Jason or James said it worked with them they said it would work likewise with any SLA. They comment wasn't "This is an exception for...", their comment was that anything which affects spells but doesn't require increasing spell levels affected spell like abilities. If you want an example look at Spell Penetration or Spell Focus. Both apply to SLAs in the same way augment summoning affects SLAs.
Based on reading feat, boosting the DC of special attacks most of which are not SLAs. Spell like abilities aren't even listed under "special attacks". Poisons, breath weapons, trample, whirlwind, etc. Do you have some examples where it was used to bump SLA saves?
Ability Focus
One of this creature's special attacks is particularly difficult to resist.Prerequisite: Special attack.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.
Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the creature takes the feat, it applies to a different special attack.
Then what is "ability focus" for?
It's not an exception. When the Jason or James said it worked with them they said it would work likewise with any SLA. They comment wasn't "This is an exception for...", their comment was that anything which affects spells but doesn't require increasing spell levels affected spell like abilities. If you want an example look at Spell Penetration or Spell Focus. Both apply to SLAs in the same way augment summoning affects SLAs.Based on reading feat, boosting the DC of special attacks most of which are not SLAs. Spell like abilities aren't even listed under "special attacks". Poisons, breath weapons, trample, whirlwind, etc. Do you have some examples where it was used to bump SLA saves?
Ability Focus
One of this creature's special attacks is particularly difficult to resist.Prerequisite: Special attack.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.
Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the creature takes the feat, it applies to a different special attack.
In 3.5, anything with a DC was a special attack. All the offensive SLAs were in the Special Attack section. Pathfinder's stat block obfuscates this and I can't quite tell if Ability Focus just got a supernerf or not.
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I still shudder somewhat considering the havoc that can be wrought by a class that can use its highest level Summon Monster multiple times per day, as a standard action, while being Invisible, and with no V,S,M components to give himself away, place the grappler, uhh, I mean critter(s) in as advantageous a position as possible, and have it act immediately while being nigh undisruptable. And that eidolon's pretty nice to have too.
There's the "only one out at a time" limitation to reign that in somewhat. If you want more than just your eidolon and 1 summoned creature out, you have to dip into your spells, which are always going to be weaker summons with the regular casting limitations.
Besides, if you're using feats from 3.5 sources, you can pretty much do the exact same thing with a sorcerer, except without the "one at a time" limitation.
In 3.5, anything with a DC was a special attack. All the offensive SLAs were in the Special Attack section. Pathfinder's stat block obfuscates this and I can't quite tell if Ability Focus just got a supernerf or not.
As far as I am concerned, spell-like abilities with DCs are still Special Attacks. The fact that pathfinder simply uses stat blocks differently shouldn't change that fact. STAT BLOCKS ARE NOT RULES. THEY DO NOT DETERMINE WHAT IS SPECIAL ATTACK. They are simply a method of organizing information so that it can be quickly utilized at a mere glance. As Cartigan states, anything with a save DC is likely a Special Attack.
In 3.5, anything with a DC was a special attack. All the offensive SLAs were in the Special Attack section. Pathfinder's stat block obfuscates this and I can't quite tell if Ability Focus just got a supernerf or not.As far as I am concerned, spell-like abilities with DCs are still Special Attacks. The fact that pathfinder simply uses stat blocks differently shouldn't change that fact. STAT BLOCKS ARE NOT RULES. THEY DO NOT DETERMINE WHAT IS SPECIAL ATTACK. They are simply a method of organizing information so that it can be quickly utilized at a mere glance. As Cartigan states, anything with a save DC is likely a Special Attack.
Might I direct you here then and maybe if we keep it in the air long enough we can get some one important to join the juggling act.
As far as I am concerned, spell-like abilities with DCs are still Special Attacks. The fact that pathfinder simply uses stat blocks differently shouldn't change that fact. STAT BLOCKS ARE NOT RULES. THEY DO NOT DETERMINE WHAT IS SPECIAL ATTACK. They are simply a method of organizing information so that it can be quickly utilized at a mere glance. As Cartigan states, anything with a save DC is likely a Special Attack.
Right. So what you're saying is that Paizo intentionally did not organize special attacks under the explicit header "special attacks" and instead just scattered them randomly around the stat block, despite you yourself stating that the stat block is a method of organizing information such that it can be found quickly and easily.
... does that seem completely devoid of logic to anyone else?
Right. So what you're saying is that Paizo intentionally did not organize special attacks under the explicit header "special attacks" and instead just scattered them randomly around the stat block, despite you yourself stating that the stat block is a method of organizing information such that it can be found quickly and easily.
... does that seem completely devoid of logic to anyone else?
I suppose I could have phrased it better.
In short, the point I was trying to make is that stat blocks can vary wildly from one to another (depending on who makes them) and should not be used as a basis for determining how the rules work.
Different publishers and roleplaying groups often use different stat blocks/character sheets. Paizo, much like WotC did, may well change their own format in the near future.
There's the "only one out at a time" limitation to reign that in somewhat. If you want more than just your eidolon and 1 summoned creature out, you have to dip into your spells, which are always going to be weaker summons with the regular casting limitations.Besides, if you're using feats from 3.5 sources, you can pretty much do the exact same thing with a sorcerer, except without the "one at a time" limitation.
The '1 at a time limit' applies to the use of the SM ability, not the number of critters summoned via that ability (remember you can use Summon Monster X to summon multiple critters from Summon Monster X-1 or lower tables).
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In 3.5, anything with a DC was a special attack. All the offensive SLAs were in the Special Attack section. Pathfinder's stat block obfuscates this and I can't quite tell if Ability Focus just got a supernerf or not.
Just keeping to the Pathfinder rules, seems like Special Attacks and Spell Like abilities are separate. You can check the intro to the bestiary it describes the stat block and lists Special Attacks and Spell Likes separately. To be honest I'm not sure what it was under 3.5 and it doesn't really matter, seems to me they are separate now. Personally it makes sense to me that spells like stinking cloud are managed by different rules/ feats than innate creature abilities like breath weapons and poisons. I'm not sure how it's a serious nerf on Ability focus, you can still take Spell Focus to bump the spell DC. I guess it's a +1 instead of the +2 it would be from ability focus.
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The '1 at a time limit' applies to the use of the SM ability, not the number of critters summoned via that ability (remember you can use Summon Monster X to summon multiple critters from Summon Monster X-1 or lower tables).
True, but that doesn't invalidate my point that at 20th level you'll have one Summon Monster IX out as a standard action, then you have to fall back on Summon Monster VI with its usual 1 round casting time.
A sorcerer with Rapid Spell, Rapid Metamagic, and Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) can cast any Summon Monster spell in his list as a standard action all combat long. Heck, on round one a 20th level sorcerer could cast a quickened Summon Monster V, then a Summon Monster IX in the same round.
The '1 at a time limit' applies to the use of the SM ability, not the number of critters summoned via that ability (remember you can use Summon Monster X to summon multiple critters from Summon Monster X-1 or lower tables).True, but that doesn't invalidate my point that at 20th level you'll have one Summon Monster IX out as a standard action, then you have to fall back on Summon Monster VI with its usual 1 round casting time.
A sorcerer with Rapid Spell, Rapid Metamagic, and Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) can cast any Summon Monster spell in his list as a standard action all combat long. Heck, on round one a 20th level sorcerer could cast a quickened Summon Monster V, then a Summon Monster IX in the same round.
Remember, all arguments must have a minimum amount of mixing and matching 3.5 splatbooks in comparison to Pathfinder.
Remember, all arguments must have a minimum amount of mixing and matching 3.5 splatbooks in comparison to Pathfinder.The '1 at a time limit' applies to the use of the SM ability, not the number of critters summoned via that ability (remember you can use Summon Monster X to summon multiple critters from Summon Monster X-1 or lower tables).True, but that doesn't invalidate my point that at 20th level you'll have one Summon Monster IX out as a standard action, then you have to fall back on Summon Monster VI with its usual 1 round casting time.
A sorcerer with Rapid Spell, Rapid Metamagic, and Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) can cast any Summon Monster spell in his list as a standard action all combat long. Heck, on round one a 20th level sorcerer could cast a quickened Summon Monster V, then a Summon Monster IX in the same round.
Given that a design goal of pathfinder was to maintain compatability with these products, it actually is reasonable to use them in a comparison of new pathfinder material. Some people use 3.5 material at their table. Pathfinder was specifically designed to allow it. So its not blasphemy to include it in a discussion.
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I went a different way for my Summoner. Why need charisma other than as a prereq to cast spell? The enemy is going to make the save anyway. Summon an edion, give it reach, cast enlarge on it (now 20 foot reach). Give it combat reflexes, now it has 4 AOO. Get martial weapon proficiency (or take a level in fighter) after you have spell focus conjuration and the feat that gives +4 str/con to your summons. and swing away with a flacion. Mine would be 2d4+9 18-20 x2. I dont remember completely, but I think... lv 1 human 18 str, 16 con, 14 cha, 10 dex, 7 wis, 7 int or around there. I buff my edion with shield and mage armor and have a cleric enlarge him so his ac goes from 15 to 21 when he is enlarged. I give him reach and trip bite so with all of his AOO he can knock down foes. And the best part is that I am only level one.
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I think really the thread is about different ways to build the summoner. Maybe a new concept or idea for the summoner to fill a role other than "spammer". Not just sit back and summon!
I'm using one the eidolon's evolution points in the disguise skill. The idea is that its form is somewhat malleable so with a little time and effort (i.e. the usual 10 to 30 min to use the skill) it can pass itself off as human. That way I'm not being constantly followed by a big scary beast. I'll probably have it pick up Disguise Self as a SLA at later levels so it can quickly re-disguise itself after combat.
The Teamwork feats are a great fit for summoners and their eidolons since you'll want to be next to it to take advantage of the Shield Ally ability anyway.