|
The issue I have is that our group has the rule that if you're LG, you're therefore lawful stupid. Like if you're a paladin of honour (as they later called the classification), and you see a village of orcs while you're passing through, then even if you're lvl 1, you're going to charge head long into it, and try to take them all down. Yeah, that's smart. Hence the "stupid" part. So to get around that you had to be a paladin of freedom (CG), or other form. The only way around that stupidity was to become a gray guard which let you be LG, but act LN. It was great. But now that Pathfinder's here, the LG is back again.
So while we're desperately trying to figure out how to make the class work again in the alternate forms, we thought we'd update the gray guard, from Complete Scoundrel, as well since it's got a couple of dead levels, but already had the full Fort AND Will saves. The main issues we had were the spell progression which was only 1/2 a level every 2 levels, which will now be just 1 every 2 levels (we still find that low), and the dead levels.
Anyone got any ideas?
Creative Director
|
It's unfortunate that some groups don't understand that LG doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. Do they hold non-paladin LG characters to the same childish and unrealistic standards? If not, why not? For such groups, often the only solution is to just play a different class with a different alignment. Or perhaps find a different group.
As for paladins... they aren't stupid. A paladin's code would specifically PREVENT them from foolishly sacrificing themselves and possibly their allies by charging into an encounter or situation that's obviously suicidal. That type of behavior only increases the morale of the bad guys, erodes the faith in the heroes, and as a result has a net gain for the bad guys. Using that logic, you could actually argue that suicide charging a foe you KNOW will destroy you and possibly bring more harm to your allies or innocents is an evil act. It's absolutely a chaotic act, and anyone who would argue that it's not is either ignorant of what the word means or is just being willful and stubborn and annoying.
If those solutions or that advice doesn't help, go ahead and just use the Gray Guard or the paladin of freedom or whatever... or just play a ranger or a fighter or a cleric. Or barring THAT... just wait for August for the Advanced Player's Guide and play a templar.
I think the inquisitor fills the roll of the gray guard quite nicely.
But then again its sad to see the paladin reduced to such a stature. They can be a pain, but their not stupid.
Or barring THAT... just wait for August for the Advanced Player's Guide and play a templar.
theres a templar class? AWESOME! cant wait for my birthday. Woot!
|
Creative Director
|
Or barring THAT... just wait for August for the Advanced Player's Guide and play a templar.theres a templar class? AWESOME! cant wait for my birthday. Woot!
The Paladin section of the APG will have rules for antipaladins and templars. Templars are basically those who aren't quite LG enough to be paladins or CE enough to be antipaladins.
|
|
It's unfortunate that some groups don't understand that LG doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. Do they hold non-paladin LG characters to the same childish and unrealistic standards?
Yes they do. Hound Archons are actually treated worse than LG paladins. They continually strike poses, and speak only in gallant manners.
As for joining a different group, I have yet to find a group in this city that doesn't made the paladin act this way. I've tried to do it different, and been punished for it. The last paladin I played, in a different group, ended up as a blackguard because of all the limitations the DM "read into" the class.
The Paladin section of the APG will have rules for antipaladins and templars. Templars are basically those who aren't quite LG enough to be paladins or CE enough to be antipaladins.
So are we talking about possible blackguards then?
I really don't like the term "Antipaladin", Black Guard is much more cooler!
The Paladin section of the APG will have rules for antipaladins and templars. Templars are basically those who aren't quite LG enough to be paladins or CE enough to be antipaladins.So are we talking about possible blackguards then?
As templars cover LN,LE,NG,N,NE,CG and CN I say you can pull one off easy. I dislike the name anti-paladin, but blackgaurd does not seem to fit a CE only class to me. So I am fine with it.
|
|
As templars cover LN,LE,NG,N,NE,CG and CN I say you can pull one off easy. I dislike the name anti-paladin, but blackgaurd does not seem to fit a CE only class to me. So I am fine with it.The Paladin section of the APG will have rules for antipaladins and templars. Templars are basically those who aren't quite LG enough to be paladins or CE enough to be antipaladins.So are we talking about possible blackguards then?
The last CE paladin that I came across was actually a Paladin of Slaughter. The Anti-Paladin was also CE. I kind of liked the NE one called the Corrupter. I could see that being CE too. I'm not too thrilled with the Templar being NE and LE too.
I really don't like the term "Antipaladin", Black Guard is much more cooler!
Why?
Blackguard just means 2 a : a rude or unscrupulous person b : a person who uses foul or abusive language.
Anti-paladin warms the cockles of grognards' hearts.
|
|
Like if you're a paladin of honour (as they later called the classification), and you see a village of orcs while you're passing through, then even if you're lvl 1, you're going to charge head long into it, and try to take them all down.
o.O
Where is the honour in that? I'd classify that as an evil act, attacking without provocation.
I'm sorry you are stuck with such backwards groups.
New Feat: You're Wrong
Choose any one class feature. When another player, or even the GM, tells you how you should interpret that feature, you get to shriek "You're wrong!!!" And they are. If they do it again, you get to pimp-slap them.
Limitation - your interpretation of the class feature must be supported by someone arguing in a forums thread somewhere.
|
The issue I have is that our group has the rule that if you're LG, you're therefore lawful stupid. Like if you're a paladin of honour (as they later called the classification), and you see a village of orcs while you're passing through, then even if you're lvl 1, you're going to charge head long into it, and try to take them all down.
....
Can you ask your group to post online? I wish to rage at them.
|
|
Like if you're a paladin of honour (as they later called the classification), and you see a village of orcs while you're passing through, then even if you're lvl 1, you're going to charge head long into it, and try to take them all down.o.O
Where is the honour in that? I'd classify that as an evil act, attacking without provocation.
I'm sorry you are stuck with such backwards groups.
It's not seen as that though. They're orcs, therefore they did something bad at some point, or will. Your deity will forgive you because they are naturally evil. -_-
|
|
It's not seen as that though. They're orcs, therefore they did something bad at some point, or will. Your deity will forgive you because they are naturally evil. -_-
Again, I am sorry that you have to game with a group like that.
I recommend taking that 'black and white' mentality and running with it. Kill the next criminal you run across without hesitation. If they give you grief over it, tell them they were obviously evil and you were doing your duty.
And if they don't even think it was a wrong act, well, you've found out how to play their style.
Also, the next orc village you run into, take the party back to the human town, incite the villagers to help you deal with the orcish threat and lead a lynch mob on the village. See if that jars their 'sense of honour'.
|
|
It's not seen as that though. They're orcs, therefore they did something bad at some point, or will. Your deity will forgive you because they are naturally evil. -_-Again, I am sorry that you have to game with a group like that.
I recommend taking that 'black and white' mentality and running with it. Kill the next criminal you run across without hesitation. If they give you grief over it, tell them they were obviously evil and you were doing your duty.
And if they don't even think it was a wrong act, well, you've found out how to play their style.
Also, the next orc village you run into, take the party back to the human town, incite the villagers to help you deal with the orcish threat and lead a lynch mob on the village. See if that jars their 'sense of honour'.
No, both groups I play with would be perfectly alright with that so long as the villagers later join your church or deity worship, and they are willing to becoming LG paladins as well. As for the criminal, so long as I spot a weapon of some kind on him (especially one that could be an improvised weapon), it would be alright. If he has nothing, I lose everything because I killed an unarmed man. I've killed an "unarmed" rogue/assassin (failed his sleight of hand dagger pull) that killed my father and lost my ability to worship, and had to repent. I just became a blackguard at that point, despite the DM's b$~!+ing.
3 classes, 1 per alignment on the good-evil axis
Good: Paladin
Neutral: Templar
Evil: Blackguard
This is how I've always wished it was handled, forget about where they lie on the lawful-chaotic axis and just concentrate on good-evil "holy warriors".
|
|
3 classes, 1 per alignment on the good-evil axis
Good: Paladin
Neutral: Templar
Evil: BlackguardThis is how I've always wished it was handled, forget about where they lie on the lawful-chaotic axis and just concentrate on good-evil "holy warriors".
I like that actually. The Blackguard is SRD afterall since it's up on the SRD site.
|
So, to return to the question that stood at the beginning, seeing as I do not want to tell a player: "Wait till that supplement ist out!", has anyone considered updating the Gray Guard to Pathfinder-Standards or if no one here is willing or able to, can someone point me into the right direction of how to do such a conversion myself?
|
|
Yes... your group needs an attitude adjustment. Nothing you do with the Paladin or a Paladin PrC class will help with out that. If they can't reconcile the idea of a Paladin with intelligence, bring up Bruce Wayne or Hal Jordan, or the Shadow.
The Batman Alignment chart should help then ;)
But in all seriousness, what the OP is describing sounds like the Paladin is a robot, only capable of a set number of actions dictated by a narrow definition of the Paladin's code.
As for the Gray Guard, I've always seen him as a Jack Bauer type, willing to do whatever necessary in order to complete the job. A decidedly un-Paladin thing to do... hence the need for a prestige class.
|
|
Yes... your group needs an attitude adjustment. Nothing you do with the Paladin or a Paladin PrC class will help with out that. If they can't reconcile the idea of a Paladin with intelligence, bring up Bruce Wayne or Hal Jordan, or the Shadow.The Batman Alignment chart should help then ;)
But in all seriousness, what the OP is describing sounds like the Paladin is a robot, only capable of a set number of actions dictated by a narrow definition of the Paladin's code.
As for the Gray Guard, I've always seen him as a Jack Bauer type, willing to do whatever necessary in order to complete the job. A decidedly un-Paladin thing to do... hence the need for a prestige class.There's a fine line.. even the Gray Guard has to have a line where he doesn't cross. Which I think is why Batman is the perfect example of one. Batman uses fear and terror, but stops short of killing or torture. Jack Bauer may be "good" but I think he steps over that line. Which is okay. not everyone who stands the banner of law and good need be a Paladin.
BTW that chart is a laugh riot. But to tell the truth given that most Paladins, especially those in Eberron and Golarion operate in a pretty grey setting anyway and face the same kind of complex challenges, I feel that the Grey Guard is at best redundant. In a Pathfinder adventure, most regular Paladins pretty much have to go the grey guard route anyway, so I really don't see the point of the PrC save perhaps for opening some skill choices.
Which really is redundant because Pathfinder does away with the worst sting of taking skills that aren't on you're class skill list.
However, regarding the Gray Guard, the atonement discount (if you will) is set up to allow the Paladin a certain "the end justifies the means" approach. Maybe not wholesale mind you, and perhaps my Jack Bauer example is a little extreme but you get my point.
I also think you are right regarding Golarion and Eberron, though having played most of my games in Faerun I tend to view the Gray Guard as more of a cool feature to help players play Paladins that sometimes have to make questionable decisions.
|
|
Making questionable decisions is THE core element of Paladin play. A well played Paladin should every now and then faced with agonising choices and get his hands dirty every once in awhile. Otherwise where is the drama, the character development? The better players of Paladins with good DMs will be doing what the Grey Guard does anyway. The others will just use the Grey Guard as a license to be a jerk. Which apparantly might be the only two options that the OP's group might have for Paladins, Stupid or Jerk. In either way, I simply would not only refuse to play a Paladin with the OP's group, I'd probably not play with them at all.
I'm starting to think that way too as of late (not playing at all) just because I'm getting tired of various things. As for the hands dirty thing, that's traumatizing to a LG character. We had a hound archon NPC turn into mush after seeing a kid die because he couldn't stop it in time. He's incredibly broken. To the point that it'd be considered humane to kill him outright.
But yeah, you're not wrong. Stupid or jerks. Actually, anyone with LN is very likely (and very much allowed) to be one.|
|
Could we get back to a working conversion of the Gray Guard to Pathfinder Standards?I think the thread development has actually served the OP's purpose. If you read his post carefully the central problem is not really conversion of a PrC class it's how his group approaches the concept of the Paladin in toto that led him to seek this out as a POSSIBLE solution. Which in my opinion, it would not be.
Oh no, I'd still love to see a Gray Guard done up. It'd be nice to see. Although the running of it is that we're supposed to apparently skip the LN aspect of things, and go either pure good or pure evil, based on what the new books are coming out say. *shrugs*
|
So, how to proceed then? Are there conversion rules or some guidelines for this?
as is the grey guard is good I would only suggest 1 of 2 changes either or maybe make it player choice
1) Better Spell Progression (every level)
2) Further development of the mount/weapon
and a slight clarifiaction on how the smite abilities stack
Smite Chaos adds Chaotic to the smite effect as well as adding demons (Chatoic Evil)
Justice blade will add all alignments to the smite effect as well as adding Devils (Lawful Evil)
other than that I think it is good to go
Or barring THAT... just wait for August for the Advanced Player's Guide and play a templar.
The Paladin section of the APG will have rules for antipaladins and templars. Templars are basically those who aren't quite LG enough to be paladins or CE enough to be antipaladins.
Paging James Jacobs!
What evil beastie swallowed up the Templar goodness from my APG?!?
Will the aforementioned Templar be appearing in some future Paizo product now?
Besides the Grey Guard (since this is in a similar vein) What about the Knight?
|
are we aloud to post a rebuild of it here on the forums i am 99.9% sure that the complete scoundrel was not OGL
That being said if you want some guidelines there is a free PDF on this website for how to convert base classes, prestige classes, and monsters from 3.0/3.5/OGL to Pathfinder RPG rules, which I find very handy:
Here is a linkamajig.
Besides the Grey Guard (since this is in a similar vein) What about the Knight?Oaths, challenges and master of mounted combat? Yeah, gonna go with the new Cavalier class.
Too right. Furthermore, while James mentioned a "Templar" earlier in time (and the thread), that description fits the "Order of the Star" for the Cavalier as well.
I hate it that people automatically assume the Paladin is stupid. Being Lawful Good is not the same as being stupid. The problem is that all the Paladins you have played with are the spontaneous kind who have to charge directly at every problem they see (more of an impatient nature). And truth be told it really doesn't fit with the gracefulness that the Paladin is supposed to be.
As for seeing a town being attacked by ogres, an intelligent paladin not corrupted by pride would go for backup not run in like Rambo. That sort of action is actually chaotic and just plain stupid. Likewise a Paladin can be subtle and intimidating and get into places without bloodshed.
Playing a paladin myself, I have the opposite problem. I try to handle things with grace but the chaotic party around me goes running in with the whole, "Let's destroy evil!" mindset. All at the same time having the other players calling me a "ditzy Paladin", but we can't just move on to our original goal because they saw an orc that they have to go destroy.
The irony of playing a paladin intelligently against the harsh stereotype.
Anyway, I would like to see both the Lawful Evil Blackguard and a Chaotic Good Crusader variants updated to Pathfinder, though, I believe those sort of things would be a few quick changes. The character should have to atone to their new variant.