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Hi all. I was thinking about miniatures I would like to see made for this line, and I thought it would be interesting to see what ideas others had.
My abridged list is:
1. Sabina Merrin (specifically from the pic of her in Edge of Anarchy)
2. Merlokrep (the Kobold King)
3. crepitus
I would love to hear other ideas.
Rune Giant!
Though I'm not sure we will ever see miniatures bigger than "large".
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I would love to hear other ideas.
I'd love to see depictions of the Gods cast as minis. Many would be usable as PCs or NPCs, and all would be great for the overall collection.
My current game has 90% of the party worshipping Cayden. Having Cayden on the shelf next to his holy symbol (a large clay mug) would be great! The mini would double well for swashbucklers everywhere.
I would *LOVE* to see Pathfinder painted minis. I have no talent nor patient to deal with pre-painted ones, but I would seriously consider those that I don't have to do anything with. It doesn't have to be on the scale that WotC releases theirs, but a couple pre-packaged every other month on a subscription service.
I know a couple of people that would definitely be up for that. Anyone? Bueller? Mairk? :P
Erik,
How can we actually determine what is the current audience for Pathfinder to have a better concept of what would be the equivalent of 2 to 3 times the current amount? Just trying to put things into tangent so we can evangelize and spread the proper memes accordingly. ;)
Personally I would be fine with PPP but I've rarely seen PPP anywhere close to the awesome lvl of detail Reaper has been doing! I would trade pre painted for beautiful any day. I would love to see some of the prestige classes and of course anything Goblin! ^_^
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Although I can definitely see why people would want previously painted minis, I am very happy with current style. I have recently started painting minis and Reaper is doing a great job (I liked Crocodile's versions also, but Reaper seems a bit more reliable). The detail is just so much better in metal than plastic.
Also, I would like to add the centaur hellknight from Korvosa (I can't remember her name) to my list. Probably won't happen, buy seriously, what's cooler than a hellknight centaur?
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Erik,
How can we actually determine what is the current audience for Pathfinder to have a better concept of what would be the equivalent of 2 to 3 times the current amount? Just trying to put things into tangent so we can evangelize and spread the proper memes accordingly. ;)
Currently the pathfinder minis are some of the ones that Reaper couldn't keep up with demands with the holidays... Northeast distribution from alliance distributors has been out of 4 sculpts since before xmas
Wow... a Pathfinder Miniatures wishlist... whew, where to begin?
I'd LOVE to see a Derhii (winged ape) from Crucible of Chaos (my all time favorite GameMastery/Pathfinder module.)
And if we do get to see miniatures bigger than large (say "Huge") I'd also enjoy seeing a Shoggoth... since in the Bestiary they are now size Huge instead of Gargantuan (like it was in the aforemetioned CoC module).
The 6 new classes from the APG... would like to see minis of them.
And even "generic" or "unusual" minis for PCs.
Example, when I ran Crucible of Chaos, I had one player that made a half-orc fighter 2/sorcerer 6 (air elemental bloodline) and he used a scattergun from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. (I'd put this type of request in the "unusual" camp.) ;)
Some of Golarion's more unique monsters... like the proteans. (Love to see all three types of these fellas.)
My wishlist could go on and on... but I've suggested 11, well 12 if you include the "unusual" PC mini.
Regards,
TMW
Director of Brand Strategy
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I assume we'll get the BBEG from all the back-issue APs at this point, but I'd also love to see all the figures used on AP covers, since they are usually prominent NPCs like Clegg Zincher, the Stag Lord, and the Illustrious Drovenges.
Also, Eando Kline, Channa-Ti, and Radovan/Varian.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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One easy way to narrow down the search is that it's a near requirement that there be an existing piece of art featuring the character, and it is far, far better if there is a "full body" image of the character, so the sculptors have an entire character to model. So the figures on the covers of Adventure Paths are excellent choices, and quite likely candidates.
That's not to say we wouldn't do new art if the character was perfect, but there's a LOT of ground to cover with characters who already exist in 2D form.
In that case... I would love love LOVE to have the Skinsaw Man. Also, I would really like to see some of the tieflings from Bastards that appeared in the book as figs. My players, and I, love the new tiefling traits and such, and its just hard to find good half-demons.
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Here's a list to get you started:
All the prestige class iconics in the Core Rulebook, the male drow on page 167, and Kiramor on page 455.
The Whirling Dervish figure on page 24 of Dark Markets -- A Guide to Katapesh, and the Gnoll slave trader on the cover.
Gray Maiden on page 19 of Pathfinder Adventure Path #8 Seven Days to the Grave.
One or several of the hooded, knife-wielding thugs from the cover of Guide to Absalom.
The female drow on the cover of Into the Darklands.
Hellknight on page 40 of Guide to Korvosa
Aurore Kaisera on page 49 of Guide to Darkmoon Vale and Third Veil Druid on page 50 of the same book.
Akmanya on page 61 of Seekers of Secrets and the Torgra on page 63 of the same book.
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CEO
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In that case... I would love love LOVE to have the Skinsaw Man. Also, I would really like to see some of the tieflings from Bastards that appeared in the book as figs. My players, and I, love the new tiefling traits and such, and its just hard to find good half-demons.
We already have the Skinsaw Man ready for you to buy. As for the tieflings, you may have to wait just a bit longer. :)
-Lisa
the Gnoll slave trader on the cover.
Gray Maiden on page 19 of Pathfinder Adventure Path #8 Seven Days to the Grave.
Hellknight on page 40 of Guide to Korvosa
These +a million. The hellknights and Grey maidens especially would be awesome to have as they are unique to Golarion organizations and having a small squad of minis for them would be awesome. No questioning them when they hit the table.
As for the Gnoll slaver, I just love gnolls and it's an awesome mini idea :P
Genies!
Pathfinder covers #21-#24 to be precise.
With Crimson Throne being my favorite AP, I've always hoped for Grey Maiden minis....
I'm actually really waiting for the new iconics.
With any luck, they will get Werner Klock to do the Oracle, Inquisitor, and Witch....ah hell....have him do all of them ;)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Yeah! Reaper just announced the Grey Maiden mini! Can't wait to see that one. Our contact at Reaper just leaked the next few months of releases to me, and some of you are going to be VERY happy!
By the way, he tells me the line is selling VERY well, so thanks for the support, and keep it coming! We want to keep doing Pathfinder minis FOREVER.
Off the top of my head - The Grauls, Thousand Bones, clerics of the main faiths... Akata & Void Zombies [they're just so damn weird and creepy]
BD
What I'd like to see with miniatures is the Bestiary, start with A and work your way through the book until there's a mini for every creature in the book.
Fortunately, the angels, demons, devils, dragons, and giants are already covered.... :)
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What I'd like to see with miniatures is the Bestiary, start with A and work your way through the book until there's a mini for every creature in the book.Fortunately, the angels, demons, devils, dragons, and giants are already covered.... :)
But what about the metal-as-@#$% marilith in the Bestiary?
A mini of that would rock harder than a planet-killing asteroid.
My sense is that the Pathfinder audience would need to be 2 to 3 times its current size (if not larger) in order for pre-painted Pathfinder minis to be feasible given the incredible cost associated with producing them.
Keep these suggestions coming, guys!
I believe the "audience" is already 2-3 times the current size, as all buyers of D&D minis would also be buyers of Pathfinder minis. Now that's a huge audience. I would even recommend making them collectable by limiting their run. This greatly drives sales of them! Release them solely in sets... perhaps sets that tied to Adventure Paths.
Reaper has made 2 major mistakes in their pre-painted minis, that I hope Paizo would not do:
#1 - They are not based.
#2 - They are not collectable.
Their retailer buy-back policy allows them to make these mistakes, but it sure doesn't help overall sales potential.
I am also a big supporter of the pre-painted minis, and I really hope that Paizo considers this. When you consider the vast market segment represented by the combined D&D and Pathfinder players, I'm certain the product will sell.
The other unique thing that Pathfinder PPM's would offer, would be the racial identities of the humans. Anyone currently using D&D minis and playing a human is pretty much forced to represent their character with a caucasion mini. Releasing nation-based packs would be an excellent and PPM unique concept as well.
The other unique thing that Pathfinder PPM's would offer, would be the racial identities of the humans. Anyone currently using D&D minis and playing a human is pretty much forced to represent their character with a caucasion mini. Releasing nation-based packs would be an excellent and PPM unique concept as well.
You have a very good point here.
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The other unique thing that Pathfinder PPM's would offer, would be the racial identities of the humans. Anyone currently using D&D minis and playing a human is pretty much forced to represent their character with a caucasion mini. Releasing nation-based packs would be an excellent and PPM unique concept as well.
That's where historical minis are your friends.
OK, so you have to paint them yourself, since there's no PPM Historicals as far as I know, but there's far more companies entering the field of customisable hard plastics, very useful, for if you want to add fantastic elements.
I believe the "audience" is already 2-3 times the current size, as all buyers of D&D minis would also be buyers of Pathfinder minis. Now that's a huge audience. I would even recommend making them collectable by limiting their run. This greatly drives sales of them! Release them solely in sets... perhaps sets that tied to Adventure Paths.
Reaper has made 2 major mistakes in their pre-painted minis, that I hope Paizo would not do:
#1 - They are not based.
#2 - They are not collectable.
Collectable? BAH!
I wish I could get away from collectible (and I doubt I'm the only one).
I believe the "audience" is already 2-3 times the current size, as all buyers of D&D minis would also be buyers of Pathfinder minis. Now that's a huge audience. I would even recommend making them collectable by limiting their run. This greatly drives sales of them! Release them solely in sets... perhaps sets that tied to Adventure Paths.
Reaper has made 2 major mistakes in their pre-painted minis, that I hope Paizo would not do:
#1 - They are not based.
#2 - They are not collectable.Collectable? BAH!
I wish I could get away from collectible (and I doubt I'm the only one).
On the surface I do not disagree with you. It's nice to casually peruse the minis and pick and choose which ones you want to buy. This is the consumer friendly model that Reaper uses. A retailer need not to feel concerned about stocking them either, as Reaper will buy back the minis they do not sell.
So what's wrong with this model?
Maximum sales potential for the retailer (or the publisher) is not realized, and few new minis are introduced.
Most retailers have limited space they can dedicate to minis. Stock that moves and is replaced with newer products are far more attractive than stock that sits on their shelves and/or storage room for a long time as it is casually sold.
I originally hated the idea that D&D minis were randomized and limited in production. Someone then explained it to me and it all made sense. For retailers, the randomized boxes moved quite steadily. They are not as worried about these sitting on their shelves for long periods of time as they know that by their limited nature, eventually they will sell them out. Most of the sales for the product is realized over the first few months the product is released.
For a publisher, this allows you to sell a vast amount of product to retailers, and not worry about re-production runs. Since there are not re-production runs, the publishers time on the product line is now focused on producing the next set.
Because of this approach, retailers benefit from constantly moving stock. Publishers benefit as they are moving more stock (and quicker), and able to introduce new products quicker. Consumers benefit because they get more minis available for purchase in a year period.
There are 3 main approaches to selling PPM minis:
Randomized Sets
Limited Production Randomized sets are not really consumer friendly, but they do drive sales and allows more products to enter the market. Ebay auctions/stores and online shops all over the world prosper well from significant bulk buying and selling the minis individually and in complete sets.
Non-Randomized Sets
Limited Production Sets of 3 - 6 minis allows the consumer to generally select what they want. They may even buy the set, even there is only 1 mini that they want. Unpopular minis will still sell well, since they are packaged with other minis. This also allows a little room for eBay / online stores to sell individual minis and complete sets. Although sales will not be as aggressive as the above method, ultimately the product will still move off the shelves at a steady pace.
Individual Minis
Unlimited Single Minis are very consumer friendly. Sales are typically slow. Unpopular minis can sit on shelves for years without selling many. Slow sales does not encourage new production lines. The more demand there is corporately for a publisher to be profitable in selling the minis, increases the chance the product will be scrapped. This method nearly eliminates the bulk sales potential that exists from online stores.
I really hope Paizo reconsiders their position on PPM's. There is more than enough market share out there with all D&D and Pathfinder players combined. I would suggest focusing on player character minis, rather than monster minis. Being a strongly focused consumer friendly company, I would recommend that Paizo go with the Limited Production Sets.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I really hope Paizo reconsiders their position on PPM's.
I'm not sure you understand our position on prepainted minis.
Our position is that we'd love to see them, and we'd especially love it if our partners at Reaper thought that they could make money doing them for us. We also trust that they know how to do their jobs, and so we would no more tell them how to make (or sell) miniatures than we would expect them to tell us how to make (or sell) adventures.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Non-Randomized Sets
Limited Production Sets of 3 - 6 minis allows the consumer to generally select what they want. They may even buy the set, even there is only 1 mini that they want. Unpopular minis will still sell well, since they are packaged with other minis. This also allows a little room for eBay / online stores to sell individual minis and complete sets. Although sales will not be as aggressive as the above method, ultimately the product will still move off the shelves at a steady pace....I would recommend that Paizo go with the Limited Production Sets.
Out of curiosity, is there a particular example of this model that you have in mind—that is, an existing product that's doing this that you think is selling well? Because the example that springs to mind for me is the D&D Player's Handbook minis, which doesn't seem to have worked out very well for them....
Out of curiosity, is there a particular example of this model that you have in mind—that is, an existing product that's doing this that you think is selling well? Because the example that springs to mind for me is the D&D Player's Handbook minis, which doesn't seem to have worked out very well for them....
Non-Randomized Sets
Limited Production Sets of 3 - 6 minis allows the consumer to generally select what they want. They may even buy the set, even there is only 1 mini that they want. Unpopular minis will still sell well, since they are packaged with other minis. This also allows a little room for eBay / online stores to sell individual minis and complete sets. Although sales will not be as aggressive as the above method, ultimately the product will still move off the shelves at a steady pace....I would recommend that Paizo go with the Limited Production Sets.
The Handbook Minis would be the best comparison that comes to my mind. They did okay on sales... about what you would expect for a product in the second category I listed. Why did they get canceled?
The big needy-greedy money crunching machine of Hasbro pretty much ensured that they would not be successful right from the start. The prior format of the minis was being sold in the best possible format for a publisher:
- collector set / limited production (don't have to worry about re-production costs and the collectors will strive to get them all)
- part of a stand alone mini-combat game
- minis could also be used for the D&D game
- created an ideal market for internet-based sellers
There was a strong market for each of these formats.
Then Hasbro got greedy. Like all big corporations, they started to pull back on quality and increase the price. The D&D mini line in its first 7-8 releases had reasonable paint jobs, well accented with dark washes. (Keep in mind when I say "reasonable paint job" I mean it from a PPM mini standard.) In the last few releases prior to the PHB Heros line, quality took a drastic downturn as their paint steps decreased. Minis were now getting an average of 3 colors, and their method of detail accenting changed from applying a dark wash, to drybrushing black plastic.
(Of course Hasbro cites that production costs had increased so they had to raise the price and drop the quality. Perhaps the 12 year old Chinese kids working the assembly lines wanted a 1 cent a day raise? How significant of a production increase could have justified both a decrease in quality and a raise in price?)
Sales when down after this. Since they adjusted price and quality together its hard to confirm the cause, but based on the comments of the old Gleemax forum, most players confirmed they were willing to pay a little extra for a "reasonable paint job".
With the introduction of PHB Heroes not only did we see the same poor paint steps but also they were re-painting pre-existing sculpts (de-valuing those existing sculpts on a collector scale, and the repaints were rarely a improvement over the originals).
Despite all this, the PHB Heroes still sold fairly well, but since they didn't sell any near as well as the randomized collector sets, they got chopped. Given the 4 reasons I listed above, there is no way that a set of visible minis will sell as well as random minis. (I don't like this fact, but it is a fact).
Hasbro has a history of cutting products that have not sold as well currently, as they have in the past. Its all about sales targets for them. Was the line viable and profitable for them... sure was... as it would be for anyone who made such a product line. Unfortunately (perhaps aided by their poor quality) sales targets were not met so the line was dropped.
Sadly, no one else is making PPM for roleplaying, other than Reaper and Wizards, so the direct comparisons are few.
I feel confident that such a line would do so well, that even in this time of financial woes I would invest in a company prepared to launch such a line.
The problem with the Dungeon and Dragon miniatrues is minis glut. If you want a particular miniature you can spend hundreds of dollars trying to get that one miniature, and in the process acrue a horde of miniatures that you don't particularly want. By the time DDM stated releasing the player handbook packs most people already had plenty of generic heroes, not to metion that some of the models in the packs were repaints. Eventually buying random packs nolonger makes since and your left with the options of either buying singles through the internet or not buying at all.
Reapers got the right idea with individual packs. And I think their big money maker will be doing monsters. I think that even the dragons, fiends, and celestials would sale well, if they were done with pathfinder bestiary art in mind. After all these are some of the most difficult DDM figures to find and tend to sell for high prices.
The one thing I would love to see is more half orc characters, especially spellcaster and light armored types. Out of the few half orc ones I can find they're all Fighters, barbarians, or some other heavily armored martial weapon wielding guy (I have yet to see a female half orc miniature). Even more specific, I want a mini of a half orc aberant sorcerer since I have a great idea for such a character
I really hope Paizo reconsiders their position on PPM's.I'm not sure you understand our position on prepainted minis.
Our position is that we'd love to see them, and we'd especially love it if our partners at Reaper thought that they could make money doing them for us. We also trust that they know how to do their jobs, and so we would no more tell them how to make (or sell) miniatures than we would expect them to tell us how to make (or sell) adventures.
Sorry about that. What I meant is that I hope Paizo reconsiders the profitability of such a product line based on the a target audience of all D&D + Pathfinder players, and not just on the Pathfinder fan-base.
I have had several discussions with Reaper staff about the marketing of their PPM line, and have received mixed comments from their staff. They are not in total agreement on how to market the line, but they have decided to apply their metal-mini sales philosophy to their PPM line. Because of that, they pretty much killed the line from the very start.
PPM's can not be sold like metal minis! This is mainly because of the manufacturing costs. Since you have to manufacture a lot, you need to sell a lot. Hanginging a single mini on a rack, with little to no collectable value, that is not on a geometrically shaped base, and hoping for sales does not sell the mini quickly.
Reaper relies on their buy back policy to keep retailers interested in stocking their products. I have the highest respect for Reaper's quality/sculpts, reasonable prices and their buy back policy. However, with PPM's and the need to manufacture in mass quantities, its more important to move the product than it is to cussion the retailers.
Sadly, the majority of the folk at Reaper can't accept that selling PPM should be any different than metal minis, and because of this, I doubt we will see many more PPM's from them. Their other mistake was making monster minis. When I see people shopping minis at my FLGS, I see people looking for PC characters. Few look at the monsters (aside from the occassional DM). With D&D minis already out though, most of the monsters are already available. They should have held off with the monsters. At my FLGS most of the PC type characters get sold, but the monsters do not. (Although I do see few of the Reaper PPM's being sold at all -- and this is from Canada's largest FLGS).
Anyways, it may not be fully customer friendly, but if you want to ensure sales of PPM, you need to make them collectable, of varying rarity and of limited production. Casual mini buyers may cuss and swear, but they will still buy a couple boxes... and if they didn't get the minis they wanted they either go to their local card (and mini) store and trade for the one they wanted, or they buy it off eBay.
Sadly, the most progress I have made with Reaper staff is to equally split them on whether the minis should come on a geometrically shaped base or on a hunk of plastic like they currently do. (Then of coarse there's the arguement of whether the base should be round or square...).
The problem with the Dungeon and Dragon miniatrues is minis glut. If you want a particular miniature you can spend hundreds of dollars trying to get that one miniature, and in the process acrue a horde of miniatures that you don't particularly want.
Or, instead of spending $15 on a random set, spend $5 on eBay to buy the mini that you want.
By the time DDM stated releasing the player handbook packs most people already had plenty of generic heroes, not to metion that some of the models in the packs were repaints. Eventually buying random packs nolonger makes since and your left with the options of either buying singles through the internet or not buying at all.
There is no such thing as "enough" generic heroes. Being the collecting addict that I am, I have all the DDM's. Even with that, when players go looking for a mini that suits their character, they often can not find what they want. Look at all of Reaper's metal mini lines. How many different fighters can you have? However, each is unique and each will be bought.
Reapers got the right idea with individual packs. And I think their big money maker will be doing monsters. I think that even the dragons, fiends, and celestials would sale well, if they were done with pathfinder bestiary art in mind. After all these are some of the most difficult DDM figures to find and tend to sell for high prices.
The real money for PPM's is in PC's for the reason I stated above. This is not to discredit making monster minis though... its great for a DM to have a force of baddies to throw down, but only the DM buys monsters, where-as both the players and DM's buy PC's.
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Despite all this, the PHB Heroes still sold fairly well, but since they didn't sell any near as well as the randomized collector sets, they got chopped. Given the 4 reasons I listed above, there is no way that a set of visible minis will sell as well as random minis. (I don't like this fact, but it is a fact).
Do you have numbers to back that up? At Gencon this past year, there was at least two stalls trying to sell the players handbook minis for $2.50 (for the 'popular' set) to $1.50 (for the 'less popular') and at noon Saturday, I was told I was the first person to buy one.
Gnomes!
Edit: Yes, all the rumblings I'm hearing online suggest that the PHB minis are going away because they were so unsuccessful (based on however Wotci/Hasbro judges such things.)
Despite all this, the PHB Heroes still sold fairly well, but since they didn't sell any near as well as the randomized collector sets, they got chopped. Given the 4 reasons I listed above, there is no way that a set of visible minis will sell as well as random minis. (I don't like this fact, but it is a fact).Do you have numbers to back that up? At Gencon this past year, there was at least two stalls trying to sell the players handbook minis for $2.50 (for the 'popular' set) to $1.50 (for the 'less popular') and at noon Saturday, I was told I was the first person to buy one.
I'm only going by 2 retailers who mentioned that at release they sold "a good amount".
The key word there though, is "at release". PPM's are not a great longevity product. (Well, unless you are Reaper and want to fill your warehouse with them, hoping to slowly unload them over the next few years). The visible sets approach is a viable route, but its certainly not the most profitable. For longterm viability Paizo would have to go down the random collectable mini route. Its a proven sales model that works, albeit an annoyance to some.
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The real money for PPM's is in PC's for the reason I stated above. This is not to discredit making monster minis though... its great for a DM to have a force of baddies to throw down, but only the DM buys monsters, where-as both the players and DM's buy PC's.
The PCs are only buying one mini each, which they are using for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. The DM is buying minis for all the encounters he puts down on the table. The smaller group of DMs are buying more minis then the much larger group of players.
A PC is usually happy with a mini that is close enough. As a DM it really sucks putting down some orc minis and saying: "Alright, all these orcs are gnolls..."
If they would only produce something other than goblins, orcs, ogres, skeletons and zombies (the usual suspects from all mini lines) PPM monsters would sell like hot cakes.
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PPM's are not a great longevity product.
I don't have any numbers, but this quote rings true to me.
For longterm viability Paizo would have to go down the random collectable mini route. Its a proven sales model that works, albeit an annoyance to some.
It also gives GMs a chance at some more esoteric minis.
