BTW, Laurelfindel, the only advantage we've seen to my system over yours in play (we've looked at both) is that 1/4s work better with a calendar than 1/3s. You may want to think about 1/4s for that reason.
Beyond that, I have ripped you off shamelessly. ;)
For better or worse, you need the DM to adjust things in the end. Which is what Mr.J said. He's probably correct on that, too. Everybody's game is different.
FALLACY! You're perpetuating von Hohenhiem's FALLACY! Just because everyone's game is different doesn't mean they should print crappy rules that no one likes!
Not really. I just thought it would be fun to scream it before someone else does.
BTW, Laurelfindel, the only advantage we've seen to my system over yours in play (we've looked at both) is that 1/4s work better with a calendar than 1/3s. You may want to think about 1/4s for that reason.
I'll agree to disagree.
I can see the advantages of a 1/4 based system, but the 1/3 has its advantages in its own right. Perhaps that in this particular case, 1/4 is better...
I stand by my choice of a 1/3 based especially since I'm playing in Forgotten Realms were weeks have 10 days. This means 3 weeks per month, and 3 months per seasons. 10-days week is also 3x 3 days (with a day off for the usual commoner), and a day was easily 3x 3 hours worth of work.
Also, my house-ruled combat system works on a tier-based round, so it made sense for my game. Obviously, YMMV...
... and I know, there are 4 seasons in a year (not three), but I didn't want to impose anything beyond 3 seasons to a player, unless they commission an Egyptian pyramid or something...
'findel
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, my house-ruled combat system works on a tier-based round, so it made sense for my game. Obviously, YMMV...
I'm finding myself becoming a big fan of your house rules - it seems that we like a similar type of game. Have you posted your tier-based round system? I'd love to see it.
Regarding poison specifically, it actually makes sense to me that it would take weeks or months to make a proper dose of a poison. It's not like you're just throwing this and that together like you're making scrambled eggs or something... you're collecting materials, carefully measuring, preparing (cutting, powdering, boiling, etc.), properly containing, etc. all while being sure that you don't accidentally kill yourself with the dangerous substance you're making in the process.
Now, it might be worth adding a rule that character classes and creatures with the "Poison Use" ability could make poisons twice as fast.
Regards crafting rules in general, no, they're not perfect, but they're an adequate enough guideline that as a GM I can make the call on when and how they apply to what situation, and to adjust as needed on a case-by-case basis. I personally have no problem winging it when they don't apply well. I realize other people do, and I am sorry that they're frustrated.
But they're frankly the lesser of my concerns; fortunately, I play with mature and competent players who don't try to pull things like "let's sell the lake of poison," etc. It's saddening to me to hear that there are people out there who will try to exploit the system (or just break their GM's brains) by attempting things like that.
I'm finding myself becoming a big fan of your house rules - it seems that we like a similar type of game. Have you posted your tier-based round system? I'd love to see it.
Also, my house-ruled combat system works on a tier-based round, so it made sense for my game. Obviously, YMMV...
I have not, mostly to avoid the 3.5 Puritan's Inquisition... :)
No seriously, these rules work under the premise that the full-attack no longer exists and that character have 1 attack per round unless feats (like TWF of Rapid Shot) come to modify that. Otherwise, the three tiers are Movement, Maneuvers (which includes most move-equivalent actions) and Challenges (which includes attacks). It was made to enhanced mobility on the battlefield.
I may open a tread for that if it interests anyone...
Regarding poison specifically, it actually makes sense to me that it would take weeks or months to make a proper dose of a poison. It's not like you're just throwing this and that together like you're making scrambled eggs or something... you're collecting materials, carefully measuring, preparing (cutting, powdering, boiling, etc.), properly containing, etc. all while being sure that you don't accidentally kill yourself with the dangerous substance you're making in the process.
True, crafting a poison may imply stage where the ingredient have to ferment, crystallize from a solution, sediment or separate in different "layer" etc. which can take days if not weeks in its own.
Like making modern drugs (including alcohol) skill and equipment can only rush things so much...
'findel
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I may open a tread for that if it interests anyone...
I'd definitely be interested. I'd also like to see more of your overland system if you wouldn't mind sharing the details. As I mentioned on that thread, I had been kicking around a very similar set of ideas and would like to hear more of your thoughts.
Creative Director
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Crafting shoes and hats an bows is part of the game, but it's not the focus of the game. We had MUCH bigger fish to fry than "fixing" the crafting rules. They're weird and silly, yes, but they do the job. Coming up with a better system for crafting can be something that we consider for Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Which is still a LONG way away.
The current craft rules are broken, period, end of story. The rules are based on the value of the item, which will never reflect the true amount of time it takes to craft an item, at least not from a "real" stand point. You can make two exact same metal statues, both cast in a mold, one made of lead one made of gold. The melting point of lead and gold are very different, but still really really low when compared to iron(lead 621 F, gold 1947 F), so with a hot enough fire it won't take that much longer. So melt them down, cast the molds, the statues are exactly the same, same mold used, however since gold is worth significantly more than lead the gold statue, by the rules, would take weeks if not months longer to make.
The wonderful thing about Pen and Paper RPG's, is that the game is truly yours. So have the DM rule on it, or come to some agreement on how long it takes to make something. If the rules simply do not make sense, make rules that do make sense.
As for crafting poison I really think it depends on the poison, and not just based on value. Poisons taken from the glands of a living organism for instance don't need to be made, but must be harvested, extracted, and stored properly. Other poisons may take time to create as the poison is the result of a long chemical process. In all honesty it would be very difficult to set a standard for this that truly works for everything, as all situations would vary. Some poisons might take a month to create. This is the reason for the gp standard for crafting as the value of an item is the only constant.
Good luck on coming up with something that works for your group!
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Homer fail English? That unpossible!
I apologize, but I can't help making the joke.
No, Skeld clepped English. But I like to say "unpossible" in these situations because most everyone recognizes it as a ridiculous word (or ridiculous situations). But I'm glad you recognized it as an attempt at humor. ;)
There's only so many reasons to have a set of rules:
'This is realistic'
I'm not sure why this is important in a game about elves and dragons, but I can see why you might want it from a sim point of view.'This is fun'
Definitely good reason to do something'This is useful'
A good argument, more about mechanics operating smoothly.
I agree with this. Rarely is any rule mechanic all 3 of these (realistic, fun, & useful). You're doing the job right if you hit 2 of them.
-Skeld
We've only touched on crafting a few times in my groups games. I once played an Eldritch Knight who forged all of his own weapons and armor, so in between adventures I would hang out at the forge and work on my gear. After the first item or so I crafted in game, we pretty much tossed the rules out the window. For the sake of story flow, as long as I had a reasonable amount of time(a few weeks, or at least days for small items) and a decent craft check, the item got made. We were around 13th level, so the DM even said he really didn't feel like slowing the game down for some non-magic weapons.
So, unless your campaign somehow centers around mass-crafting, or in the OP's situation specific poisonmaking, I wouldn't spend too much brain-space on it. Ad-Hoc and move on.
I have intention to use a more drastic method to solve the Crafting paradox in D&D...
Simply, I will put 3 more data in each common object table entry: cost to craft, crafting time and craft CD...
To craft an object one pays the cost, work on it for the indicated time and makes a roll to see if he succeds in crafting the item...
He can succeed or fail, but also fail badly, ruining his work, or make a really good success, possibly reducing crafting time or crafting a higher quality item...
I will also add two more levels of good quality and two of poor quality, basing their cost on simple multiples of the basic cost(Scarce 1/5, Poor 1/2, Superior x5, Masterwork x25)...
This quality levels are for functionality, not for artistic additions... Artistic embellishment is treated as a separate crafting which adds only to the market value of the object...
It will be possible to try to craft a higher quality object from start, but the time, cost and CD are all higher... Poor quality objects are the result of failed checks... Badly failed checks ruin the work and force to pay part of the materials again...
Quality of tools and working environment will modify the crafting roll, as will other factors...
I have intention to use a more drastic method to solve the Crafting paradox in D&D...
Simply, I will put 3 more data in each common object table entry: cost to craft, crafting time and craft CD...
LOL. You're completely right, Mad Master. With all of the problems that the 3.5 designers chose to solve with tables why wasn't this among them?
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Crafting shoes and hats an bows is part of the game, but it's not the focus of the game. We had MUCH bigger fish to fry than "fixing" the crafting rules. They're weird and silly, yes, but they do the job. Coming up with a better system for crafting can be something that we consider for Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Which is still a LONG way away.
The system works fine for hats and shoes and cups, just not for Masterwork weapons/armour or ones made from unusual materials, mechanical traps, and poisons.
I suggest that keeping the same model for mundane items up to 1000 gp is pretty much fine, but the way the masterworking and exotic materials rules should be tweaked.
If you simple double the base time to make the mundane version of an item to create a masterwork one, I think that'd be fair. A crafter would take extra time to make a particularly good item, but not too much.
Special materials like mithral etc... should take triple the time because they need to be worked under special conditions (also an additional one time cost for a specialized forge would be appropriate).
Poisons should be lumped into the wondrous items or potions category, and can be made by someone with the appropriate skill and the Master Craftsmen feat if they're not a spellcaster.
Traps need to be revisted for cost IMO. If the kobolds in Revenge of the Kobold King actually had to craft all of those traps by RAW, they'd never be able to get them all set up in one night. Obviously, this is not a high priority, since most PC's don't make a lot of traps, but the odd bit of razerwire or 10' deep pit should not cost 400 and 1800 gp.
It's a gamist solution to a game problem that creates narrative and simulationist problems.You forgot the part where it's also not a very good gamist solution to said game problem, when you're spending years making a suit of armor when the game system is designed to be far more fast-paced.
Agreed, craft/profession is a major problem within the d20 ruleset and one that should be resolved if someone attempts to heavily rewrite the system. Further just because it's always been crap, from back in the Non-Weapon Proficiency 1e era through to today doesn't mean it shouldn't be tackled.
The problem is deeply rooted in the game however as it exists all the way down to the building blocks of the fantasy economy. As many discussions have indicated there are basically 3 economic systems at work in the game (Turnip, Gold, Wish). The problem is how do make a craft/profession system that works with all 3 economies in a seamless manner?
Profession is pretty much a Roleplaying only conceit that basically loses utility past 1st level. Craft is decent at low levels but as the material costs of items scale up craft just can't keep up.
While various crafting feats could be used to make up for the shortcomings of the system I really don't like instituting a feat tax on PC crafting unless you really want to reinforce a conceit that adventurers do adventuring and craftsmen do crafting. Further it potentially forces you into the kingdoms with tons of expert 20s running around...
I think an improved system would instead look something like this.
Determine base costs of item in Silver Pieces. Instead of a static +300 GP for masterwork items, masterwork items are valued with some multiplier of the base cost. I'd probably work with a multiplier of x2 for the selling cost (not manufacturing costs). That would reflect that a master craftsman can make good stuff but it's not automatically x+300. Sure a masterwork longsword is less valuable (not that 30 GP is chump change in a society where that sword is close to what a common laborer makes in a year) but you don't have crazy things like a masterwork club costing 300 GP either. Note masterwork full plate would be very expensive under these guidelines- not necessarily a bad idea.
Speaking of masterwork clubs, standard Items with a null base cost (such as quarterstaff, clubs) are assumed to have an intrinsic craft cost of 5 SP reflecting the time necessary to find, harvest and shape a piece of raw material into a combat ready weapon, etc.
Boris the Bold needs a new masterwork sword to replace the one he lost on his last adventure so he goes to Sam the Smith (Expert 5) in his local town and asks for a serviceable weapon.
Craft checks
1) Find base value of item in SP
Example: Longsword 150 SP x 2 for Masterwork or 300 SP
2) Find DC to make item (DC for Masterwork is Base +5 instead of static 20)
Example: Martial Melee DC 15 + 5 for Masterwork.
3) Pay 1/3 in material costs (Dwarven Miners need to eat too!) Material Costs for masterwork items are 150% of the material costs of the base item.
Example: Longsword has 50 SP worth of material costs. Steel, leather, coal for the furnaces, assistants to man the belows, etc. A Masterwork sword with better materials (Griffon Hide hilt wrapping, etc) would have 75 SP worth of material costs.
4) Take 10 or roll (representing 1 week of work)x DC to determine work done in a week.
Example: Sam the Smith has 3 ranks in Craft: Weapons and it's a class skill (+3) and has 2 good apprentices (2 x +2) taking 10 on their add another checks. With a take 10 he gets a result of 20 on the check. 20 x 20 = 400 SP so in theory he could pop out a masterwork sword every week.
Crafters with 4 or more ranks in a skill are considered masters and can manufacture things more swiftly (mainly because they can oversee journeymen and apprentices efficiently). This gives the crafter a multiplier to his craft check.
Ranks in Skill Multiplier
4-7 x2
9-11 x3
12-15 x4
16-20 x5
Boris the Bold needs Masterwork Full Plate but doesn't want to wait the 40+ weeks that it would take Sam to make the armor so he goes to Arnie the Armorer (Expert 15).
Arnie has 15 Ranks in Craft: Armor which is a class skill +3, He also has Skill Focus- Craft:Armor for another +6, he has a great shop for a +2 circumstance bonus, + 1 for an intelligence of 16, 4 Apprentices each providing +2 for aid another, and a +5 competence bonus for a Hammer of the Master Smith (Misc Magic Item). He has a take 10 check of 50. Masterwork Heavy Plate has a DC of 24 so he makes (24 x 50 x 4 or 4800) worth of progress in a week. At that rate of progress Arnie should be finished in about 6 weeks.
6 weeks of manufacturing time is pretty short and is definitely in keeping with the amount of time necessary to custom fit armor. I think you could definitely contemplate various spells that give additional multipliers.Example: Hands of the Master Smith (level 1 Wizard/Cleric) provides a x2 multiplier to crafting checks. If you already have a multiplier for high skill levels increase your multiplier by +1. This would allow wizards to work in conjunction with craftsmen and generate wonderous items in a fraction of the time.
LOL. You're completely right, Mad Master. With all of the problems that the 3.5 designers chose to solve with tables why wasn't this among them?I have intention to use a more drastic method to solve the Crafting paradox in D&D...
Simply, I will put 3 more data in each common object table entry: cost to craft, crafting time and craft CD...
Those tables are already in the manuals, I just add three columns... And I will remove one table too: that in the description of the Craft skill... :-p
With such a system, you'll have to waste less time rolling dice to craft something... Roll once and check the result, as any other skill...
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I'm finding myself becoming a big fan of your house rules - it seems that we like a similar type of game. Have you posted your tier-based round system? I'd love to see it.
Also, my house-ruled combat system works on a tier-based round, so it made sense for my game. Obviously, YMMV...
I have not, mostly to avoid the 3.5 Puritan's Inquisition... :)
No seriously, these rules work under the premise that the full-attack no longer exists and that character have 1 attack per round unless feats (like TWF of Rapid Shot) come to modify that. Otherwise, the three tiers are Movement, Maneuvers (which includes most move-equivalent actions) and Challenges (which includes attacks). It was made to enhanced mobility on the battlefield.
I may open a tread for that if it interests anyone...
I would be interested in reading them.
Well bows have always been ridiculously overcosted in all versions of the game. A functional standard shortbow should be something that virtually every hunter-gatherer society can craft in a fairly short amount of time given the necessary raw materials.
Equipping a 1st level warrior with leather armor, long bow, arrows and short sword should not be almost 100 GP. In comparison the light men-at-arms with scale mail, longsword, large wooden shield and short spear costs less to equip than the long bow by itself.
The primary result of overcosted bows is that in all editions of D&D that fighters generally cannot afford to purchase anything better than a shortbow at first level along with their armor and melee weapons. You can only afford longbows if you take a major hit on your armor.
While this reinforces the conceits that men-at-arms and archers shall not mix it's not really useful in the current paradigm that the fighting man should be a one man combat machine ;) Further by about 4th level just about any fighter can afford a max strength composite long bow + masterwork armor and weapons. High cost bows just hurt the little guy.
I would be interested in reading them.I'm finding myself becoming a big fan of your house rules - it seems that we like a similar type of game. Have you posted your tier-based round system? I'd love to see it.
Also, my house-ruled combat system works on a tier-based round, so it made sense for my game. Obviously, YMMV...
I have not, mostly to avoid the 3.5 Puritan's Inquisition... :)
No seriously, these rules work under the premise that the full-attack no longer exists and that character have 1 attack per round unless feats (like TWF of Rapid Shot) come to modify that. Otherwise, the three tiers are Movement, Maneuvers (which includes most move-equivalent actions) and Challenges (which includes attacks). It was made to enhanced mobility on the battlefield.
I may open a tread for that if it interests anyone...
I just don't see why it's worth metering this at all. Just say 'ok, the month goes by while people do stuff. What did you do?'
"I chatted up the local druid guild."
"I paid homage to my ancestors."
"I made a bunch of armor and weapons for our retainers."
'Ok, now you hear rumors of a dragon in the black wood...'
Just make Craft 'a background way to get half-off mundane gear' and be done with it. If you can take 10 and make the item, then don't sweat it. Maybe if it's harder, bother to roll or something.
As to maximum number of units that a craftsman can make of items like horseshoes and nails, etc.
In pre-industrial production a craftsman might be able to make somewhere between 10-20 pins (think something simple like a nail, etc) in a day. Indeed in pre-industrial America metal nails were extremely valuable. If you were taking apart a building you would definitely salvage any metal nails (if you weren't using wooden nails).
So yeah I wouldn't be surprised if a single blacksmith working alone doing all the tasks of a forge would be limited to a handful of horseshoes in a given day.
The reality of course was that a pre-industrial forge had extensive division of labor. You'd have a master smith but he'd have several journeymen and apprentices doing everything from shaping ingots to stoking the fires to quenching the iron to manning the bellows.
The ideal of a single sword smith laboring by his lonesome in a mountain forge is kinda a conceit of literature. Chances are a large number of individuals would be involved in the final production of something like a sword.
The problem is that the D20 rules don't really take into account division of labor and the supervisory role of a craftsman unless you heavily modify the aid another action.
OK, let's take the example by James Jacobs and expand it to all items:
Advanced Crafting
Choose a Craft skill. You can create items more quickly than most.Prerequisites: Craft skill 3 ranks
Benefit: You can craft an expensive item using the chosen Craft skill much quicker. You can only craft one item at a time using this feat. Making an item takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the item's price. Some special or particularly rare items can take much longer to make at the GM's discretion. To make an item, you must use up raw materials costing one half of the total price of the item to be made. Additionally, each day you craft the item you must make a Craft check equal to the Craft DC to make the item. If you fail, you make no progress that day, ruin half the raw materials, and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different Craft skill.
This feat doesn't mention the poison rules, but most of those rules are already built into the poison description in the glossary section of the PRD.
Edit: the multiple items thing doesn't expand well to other items, so I dropped it in favor of 1 item per day.
Edit: made sure you couldn't finish a project if you can't possibly craft it.
As to maximum number of units that a craftsman can make of items like horseshoes and nails, etc.
In pre-industrial production a craftsman might be able to make somewhere between 10-20 pins (think something simple like a nail, etc) in a day. Indeed in pre-industrial America metal nails were extremely valuable. If you were taking apart a building you would definitely salvage any metal nails (if you weren't using wooden nails).
So yeah I wouldn't be surprised if a single blacksmith working alone doing all the tasks of a forge would be limited to a handful of horseshoes in a given day.
The reality of course was that a pre-industrial forge had extensive division of labor. You'd have a master smith but he'd have several journeymen and apprentices doing everything from shaping ingots to stoking the fires to quenching the iron to manning the bellows.
The ideal of a single sword smith laboring by his lonesome in a mountain forge is kinda a conceit of literature. Chances are a large number of individuals would be involved in the final production of something like a sword.
The problem is that the D20 rules don't really take into account division of labor and the supervisory role of a craftsman unless you heavily modify the aid another action.
I have seen some craftsmen make things like knives on a forge. The blade will often take 4-6+ hours making it from an premade ingot or piece of quality metal (often a broken file, as they have many and they are decent material). I can imagine journeymen making bar stock all day from their masters, and just repeatedly folding raw iron to get out the imperfections in the material.
Personally I feel that using the craft skill should be a way around spending as much money then actually buying the items.
Taking the time of having your character craft an item should reduce how much your character would have spent just buying the same item; I should be a fair trade.
Now I am not saying that this works for magical items but for basic gear or poisons or alchemical items.
Could you get me a link? My search-fu is failing.Laurelfindel has some awesome in-depth crafting rules in the house rules forum. If you are paying close enough attention that the Rules-as-Written (RAW) crafting rules bother you, take a look at those.
I have my own house rules as well. You are not alone in seeing this as problematic, but I think the RAW serves fine for most players needs.
Here is the original post
Here is the follow-up thread
I'm not completely clear on how well it handles high value magical item creation.
Thanks, I have not had time to read it yet, but I will get to it this weekend.
The model I used to render a usable Craft system out of the Profession and Craft skills was certainly a divergence from RAW, but it worked enough for a low merchandise monster game with goblin PCs. In my game, relatively simple Profession or Craft checks were needed to render a raw material, like iron or copper ore, the hide of a animal (or human), or a forest of old growth trees, into a usable craft component. Higher end components, like a darkwood grove, or mithral or adamantium ore, had higher DCs, and rendered out components of commensurate value. These were basic checks which consumed an hour of time. Failure as per RAW, of course, ruined the raw material.
These base components could then be worked to be improved, and risked in the process, and then combined to produce a final item. Once the component was made, the cost in time and money could be subtracted from the overall cost of the item. So a mighty composite bow had a component cost of tree heartwood, beast horn, monsterous spider silk, finishing resins, and glue. If your heartwood component was damaged, then you could relaminate the bow with another wood component, or sub out a darkwood component to cover the cost, while sacrificing the properties that you would normally glean from darkwood.
To my mind, this closer simulates the way that crafting actually works, and allows for apprentices to do useful work outside of aid another checks.
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Just a slightly crazy idea, but maybe it's supposed to take crazy-long periods of time to craft expensive items.
It makes sense to me as a way of limiting money generation for players who decide *we're going to spend a month in the city, make money well beyond our wealth/character level, and use that to deck ourselves out.
Speaking of which, did they fix that spell that lets wizards make and sell tons of metal?
I just don't see why it's worth metering this at all. Just say 'ok, the month goes by while people do stuff. What did you do?'
"I chatted up the local druid guild."
"I paid homage to my ancestors."
"I made a bunch of armor and weapons for our retainers."'Ok, now you hear rumors of a dragon in the black wood...'
Just make Craft 'a background way to get half-off mundane gear' and be done with it. If you can take 10 and make the item, then don't sweat it. Maybe if it's harder, bother to roll or something.
Except a player is generally unable to say "a month roles by" and have anyone take him seriously. No one wants to wait 6 months for me to make a SINGLE dose of poison when they could all be adventuring. Undoubtedly the GM might have something bad happen while we were away from our adventuring duties. If it took a couple of days to make the poison instead, it would be easy. On the occasional "month off" I could make several doses. That sounds fine and realistic.
Also, I disagree with the above poster that said "it makes sense because you are trying not to poison yourself." I agree that SOME poisons shouldn't be quick (as you sometimes have to distill them, separate them, etc.), but I can't think of many poisons or situations that should take months or even years to make.
it would be easy to errata the Poison rules (which already have a small bit of explanatory text for creating poisons) to include something like "creating poisons takes 1/10 the time to create as other items using the craft skill." Alternatively, we could keep the current times, but allow the creator to make multiple does at once. Why should I get 1 does per 6 months, when I could have several gallons in a cauldron going simultaneously? I should have 100 or a 1,000 does in 6 months, not 1.
My point is to ignore the rules and go with fun/useful 'some time goes by and...'
Nobody should be waiting for 6 game months for something that isn't the climax of the adventure.
The crafting rules work fine as long as there is sufficient trust between the players and the DM. DMs are free to hand wave the passing of time to allow for the rules or to adjust the crafting time to fit the time available.
It is only when a certain type of player wants to use the rules as a club to beat the DM with (and to break the game) that problems arise. Complaining that the rules don't allow you to create gallons of poison that are worth millions of gold pieces is twinky in the extreme. Poison is powerful and valuable and only uber munchkins would try to abuse the rules to allow for its unlimited use.
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I dont know about making crafting more simple for poison..
BUT
I have simplified the crafting of armor in my games....
Instead of worrying about cost, daily checks, etc... I have told players this:
The bonus of the armor is also the number of weeks needed to create the armor and the DC is still the same.
Example: Full plate provides a +9 armor bonus thus it requires 9 weeks to make one suit of full plate. The DC would still be 19 (10+armor bonus). No more breaking down how many gp/day etc...
I still havent simplified the others yet, but give me time to figure a fair system...
we also use an alternate masterworking system inspired by the Black Company RPG masterworking system (very good...dunno if it's OGL and a buddy of mine is borrowing that book).Go ahead and tell us how it works?
Basically, it's a component masterworking system. You (the crafter) choose to add (for example), some of the following to a weapon:
+1 to hit
+1 to damage
+1 to confirm critical
+2 hardness
+5 hit points
+1 initiative (etc)
you can have as many 'choices' as 1/2 your Craft ranks, and each choice after the first is +2 DC on the crafting. You can stack the choices (for +2 to hit), but a double stack counts as 4 choices, and a triple stack counts as 9 choices (a quad stack would be 16, but impossible without epic levels)
The cost of the masterwork part is a multiple based on the original item cost and the number of masterwork choices...without digging out our campaign guide, each choice basically adds 1/2 the original cost to the item.
Similar system for armor - add +1 AC, +1 DR (we use the armor is AC and DR from Unearthed Arcana), +1 DEX Mod, -1 ACP...restricted to improving up to 1/2 original score, rounded down. So Chain Mail (+3 AC/+3 DR) could be improved to have (at best) +4 AC/+4 DR - which would basically double the price of the armor. Masterwork Full Plate gets VERY expensive with this system, but as I mentioned, armorsmiths get a craft multiplier and thus make armor faster.
Basically, it's a component masterworking system.
Oh, something I forgot to mention, but we never adopted. Basically I proposed that the cost of raw materials = base cost - 'earnings' of crafter. This had the nice effect of:
1.) not changing how much PCs earn using craft skills
2.) not changing how much PCs bought stuff for
3.) making some sense (base cost = raw materials + crafter's profit)
4.) high DC projects had very high raw materials cost - this also made sense
After much mathematical analysis, I got this result (skill 40 = +40 skill mod, FYI):
@DC40/skill40: 1600sp/week production, 200sp/week profit = 7/8th raw materials cost (87.5%)
@DC35/skill35: 1225sp/week production, 175sp/week profit = 6/7th raw materials cost (85.7%)
@DC30/skill30: 900sp/week production, 150sp/week profit = 5/6th raw materials cost. (83.3%)
@DC25/skill 25: 625sp/week production, 125sp/week profit = 4/5th raw materials cost. (80%)
@DC20/skill 20: 400sp/week production, 100sp/week profit = ¾ raw materials cost (75%)
@DC20/skill 30: 600sp/week production, 150sp/week profit = ¾ raw materials cost (75%)
@DC15/skill 15: 225sp/week production, 75sp/week profit = 2/3 raw materials cost (67.7%)
@DC10/skill 10: 100sp/week production, 50sp/week profit = ½ raw materials cost (50%)
@DC10/skill 30: 300sp/week production, 150sp/week profit = ½ raw materials cost (50%)
@DC5/skill 10: 50sp/week production, 50sp/week profit = 0 raw materials cost (but what's DC5?)
And the formulae boiled down to this:
Materials Cost (sp) = Base Cost in Silver Pieces – (Base Cost x 5 / DC of Project)
Profit from Entire Project = Base Cost x 5 / DC of Project
Time in Weeks = Base Cost / (DC x Skill Roll)
The bad: Items generally cost more to make, as the raw materials cost is generally higher. This sucks if you fail your craft roll - but most crafters should really be taking 10.
The crafting rules work fine as long as there is sufficient trust between the players and the DM. DMs are free to hand wave the passing of time to allow for the rules or to adjust the crafting time to fit the time available.
It is only when a certain type of player wants to use the rules as a club to beat the DM with (and to break the game) that problems arise. Complaining that the rules don't allow you to create gallons of poison that are worth millions of gold pieces is twinky in the extreme. Poison is powerful and valuable and only uber munchkins would try to abuse the rules to allow for its unlimited use.
The crafting rules don't work fine. This has been shown repeatedly in this and other threads.
Also, creating gallons of poison doesn't break the game--at least not from a financial standpoint. In order to create millions of gold of poison, you need millions of gold of starting supplies. Even if you could get that much (which means your game probably broke already) then you would still have to spend months and months (minimum) brewing it all. Kiss your adventuring career goodbye as the campaign world moves on without you. Might as well make a new character as your old one has clearly retired form the adventuring life to play Merchants and Makers instead of Dungeons and Dragons.
"Complaining that the rules don't allow you to create gallons of poison that are worth millions of gold pieces is twinky in the extreme."
Why does everyone keep using the word complaining? Who's complaining? I am not trying to create gallons of poison in order to earn millions of gold. I am merely trying to get a perceived problem in the rules noticed and fixed.
The other thing that helps is to adopt a 'what's in focus is adventuring.'
So, among other things, the perceived problem of 'but a crafter can make boatloads of cash doing mundane stuff if we aren't careful' is only a problem if you treat Craft as anything other than, say, Profession.
Or to put it another way, when a crafter wants gear for the party (or followers, or pets, or... whatever), she crafts it. When she wants income between sessions, handwave it or treat it just like Profession.
I think one reason the craft rules are screwed up is trying to solve an adventuring issue (gear is cheaper) and a world econ issue (crafters generate revenue) with one rule.
I had to grab my copy to check (it's been a while!), but no, those weren't mine. They ARE pretty neat...
I did more of the descriptive information, the sub-breeds, a few of the adventures, Caudal Lure, Shehss script, and some of the other wackier feats/items.
I dont see a problem, the craft rules are based on value and the values are based on game balance, it is a pretty decent starting point.
I don't think anyone can figure out a set of rules that works for everyone, if it really bothers your gaming group houserule it, you have a pretty good idea how it should be, different gamers do not agree all that often on what the proper way to do things is.
I dont see a problem, the craft rules are based on value and the values are based on game balance, it is a pretty decent starting point.
I don't think anyone can figure out a set of rules that works for everyone, if it really bothers your gaming group houserule it, you have a pretty good idea how it should be, different gamers do not agree all that often on what the proper way to do things is.
The problem with poisons is that they are one of the only consumable, non-magic items that have high cost. Non-consumable crafting times aren't too bad IMO, as they are realistic, although time prohibative in most games.
The poisons take months to create. Claiming ballance is a falacy, since if they were a magic item, they would be just as powerful, cost the same amount, but take 1-2 days for most of them (though requiring a lvl 1 feat, 2 for non-casters)