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nice dodge of the question.In this specific case, they do the job.The intent of craft is to make something, and these rules do that job.Is it ever possible for rules not to do the job, as you see it?
This isn't a dodge. This thread is specifically about crafting, and the rules are fine.
If I've got a problem elsewhere (which I had a lot of gripes about older edition rules... especially save or die.) then I'll post it elsewhere.
Besides, I don't like being personally called out. Its unbecoming of any posters to do that to anyone else, I'm seeing too much of it in the community of late.
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The way you describe it, game designers aren't needed.
They aren't, technically speaking, but nice of you to put words in my mouth anyway. I really appreciate it when someone tells me what I'm saying. The game designers make the vast bulk of the rules in general. The GM is there to pick the rules that actually make it to the table. The Designer is the start of the process, the GM is the filter before it reaches the table.
If the GM can also provide the rules for his game, then so much the better. It means that you can create whatever it is that you feel like, or stick with what you've got.
This isn't a dodge. This thread is specifically about crafting, and the rules are fine.
The entire point is that the way you framed it, no matter what the crafting rules were, no matter what the , they'd be perfectly fine so long as they could create stuff. That is the point you dodged. The question is not about whether or not the crafting rules craft stuff, but whether or not they're any good.
By your wording, FATAL's magic rules are fine because they allow for the casting of spells. Is this correct?
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This isn't a dodge. This thread is specifically about crafting, and the rules are fine.The entire point is that the way you framed it, no matter what the crafting rules were, no matter what the , they'd be perfectly fine so long as they could create stuff. That is the point you dodged. The question is not about whether or not the crafting rules craft stuff, but whether or not they're any good.
Can anyone not tell me what I am saying? Can they then finish reading the rest of my post?
I say the rules are fine. How is that dodging the point? Can I not disagree, because this is my answer to your question. I've seen nothing from anyone that proves to me its terrible as is, nor have I seen anyone give a brilliant suggestion for how to fix it.
I say its fine, I gave my 2 cents, i'm moving on. I don't want any one poster calling out another to make this a personal affair. If you've got a problem with the rules that is fine, but the line of arguing has gone WAY to close to personal.
By your wording, FATAL's magic rules are fine because they allow for the casting of spells. Is this correct?
Just don't. I never said anything about magic, this is a thread about the Craft system. If you've got a beef with that, take it elsewhere into a more appropriate thread. Post one, or something, I don't care. Just don't aim that cannon at me, okay?
Studpuffin, if you actually put together an argument, any argument, people may be less inclined to try to infer what you intend.
So far it's been 'long analysis of perceived problems with craft system' followed by 'the craft system is fine.'
Ooo... k. Could you elaborate?
Hey kids, simmer down. This isn't worth a flame war, nor a locking of the thread.
Just don't. I never said anything about magic, this is a thread about the Craft system. If you've got a beef with that, take it elsewhere into a more appropriate thread. Post one, or something, I don't care. Just don't aim that cannon at me, okay?
You presented logic about rules. Logic that ought to be fully transferable. If, "The intent of craft is to make something, and these rules do that job," is the only criterion for solid crafting rules, then any magic system that even makes it possible to use magic, no matter how convoluted, must be acceptable because they do their job.
This is about logic. The logic fails to stand on its own merits. It is faulty. It is neither valid nor sound, whether in regards to crafting or magic.
If you present a position, you must present evidence and logic or your opinion holds no weight and has no merit. That evidence and logic are subject to analysis. These are not personal attacks. It's basic debate. No one has attacked you.
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EDIT: Rotten Post Monster!
Lets stop the band wagon pile on of me here, and how about we move on to actually choosing one of the solutions offered above? That seems to be the direction the thread was going, it shouldn't be derailed. I'll probably stick with the status quo, but I should be able to help you guys out with choosing a houserule in the mean time.
I personally like Dissinger's idea of using gold instead of silver if it has to be houseruled. The rules remain mostly intact, the issue with time efficiency disappears since its ten times faster, and it has the added benefit of working at traditional adventurer level prices instead of utilizing a non-heroic economy. Its also a little less arbitrary than just adjusting prices based on some fictional economy at each game table.
Anyone else have a take?
EDIT: Rotten Post Monster!
Lets stop the band wagon pile on of me here, and how about we move on to actually choosing one of the solutions offered above? That seems to be the direction the thread was going, it shouldn't be derailed. I'll probably stick with the status quo, but I should be able to help you guys out with choosing a houserule in the mean time.
I personally like Dissinger's idea of using gold instead of silver if it has to be houseruled. The rules remain mostly intact, the issue with time efficiency disappears since its ten times faster, and it has the added benefit of working at traditional adventurer level prices instead of utilizing a non-heroic economy. Its also a little less arbitrary than just adjusting prices based on some fictional economy at each game table.
Anyone else have a take?
That seems reasonable to me. Most of my alternative ideas are in my posts above.
Perhaps we could leave the prices and timing the same, but allow a character to create multiple doses simultaneously (my initial thought is to allow 10 doses per rank in Craft: alchemy). That way, it would still take 6 months to make something like Dark Reaver Powder, but a person with 10 ranks could make 100 doses during that time (provided he can even afford to).
Alternatively, we could combine the two ideas. Allow for simultaneous creation of doses as above, but run the pricing in gold pieces. Would that be too much you think?
Any solution that doesn't either put mundane crafting on the same scale as magic crafting, or address the 'iron ring, gold ring' value problem doesn't really work for me.
But I've suggested my houserule. ;)
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That seems reasonable to me. Most of my alternative ideas are in my posts above.
Perhaps we could leave the prices and timing the same, but allow a character to create multiple doses simultaneously (my initial thought is to allow 10 doses per rank in Craft: alchemy). That way, it would still take 6 months to make something like Dark Reaver Powder, but a person with 10 ranks could make 100 doses during that time (provided he can even afford to).
Alternatively, we could combine the two ideas. Allow for simultaneous creation of doses as above, but run the pricing in gold pieces. Would that be too much you think?
Well, if you change the guidelines for both I think it gets into the realm of being a little too much too fast. You'd really want to limit the doses if you do both.
The multiple doses in the same amount of time isn't a bad idea either for alchemy in general. It flows well too, if you are going to make something that takes a long time you might as well make a lot of it. 10 might be a little much IMO, but I don't really have a target i'm aiming for here either. My first thought is 5, though. Just a ballpark take.
Perhaps the DC should rise by 2 each time you double the number of sets (+2 for two, +4 for four, +6 for eight, and so on). This will prevent low level characters from being able to produce something of this calibre in abundance, Dark Reaver Powder is very strong stuff after all.
For general mundane crafting, I still suggest the gold-over-silver approach if you want to speed up crafting.
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EDIT: Rotten Post Monster!
Lets stop the band wagon pile on of me here, and how about we move on to actually choosing one of the solutions offered above? That seems to be the direction the thread was going, it shouldn't be derailed. I'll probably stick with the status quo, but I should be able to help you guys out with choosing a houserule in the mean time.
I personally like Dissinger's idea of using gold instead of silver if it has to be houseruled. The rules remain mostly intact, the issue with time efficiency disappears since its ten times faster, and it has the added benefit of working at traditional adventurer level prices instead of utilizing a non-heroic economy. Its also a little less arbitrary than just adjusting prices based on some fictional economy at each game table.
Anyone else have a take?
That seems reasonable to me. Most of my alternative ideas are in my posts above.
Perhaps we could leave the prices and timing the same, but allow a character to create multiple doses simultaneously (my initial thought is to allow 10 doses per rank in Craft: alchemy). That way, it would still take 6 months to make something like Dark Reaver Powder, but a person with 10 ranks could make 100 doses during that time (provided he can even afford to).
Alternatively, we could combine the two ideas. Allow for simultaneous creation of doses as above, but run the pricing in gold pieces. Would that be too much you think?
I wouldn't combine the two, as it is it takes roughly two days to make the lower level poisons around level 5 or so. Which is about right. Given a few more levels and you're doing doses per day. You can easily rack them up, since the rules state you'll have time to make crafting rolls once a day, regardless of the adventuring, unless the GM expressly states you can't craft.
EDIT: How I ended up handling multiple doses was if your craft roll created enough gold to produce for two doses, then you got two doses of poison. So really it encouraged that you worked on your craft (alchemy) skill. That way when you get five times the price of a single dosage, you can get five doses in a single day, as you're obviously experienced enough to do it en masse.
Once again, simple, elegant, and efficient I would say.
Flat costs are an abstraction I don't like but am willing to deal with. I can't get to youtube at work, is that the one from the shoping channel, where after the sword breaks and hits him in the chest, they still try to sell it as good quality?No, it's a guy called lindybeige who is (i think) a historian, and really good at ancient arms and armor. He makes great videos about different kinds of weapons and armor, as well as general rants about stuff he doesn't like (such as the caps lock key or "designer" stuff).
I like his comments on chainmail..the figure he quotes of 250 man hours to link a chain shirt is well in line with the crafting rules. But I do think the system needs a from the ground up rebuild.
I removed a post that was not productive. Ad hominem attacks are not welcome here.
I like his comments on chainmail..the figure he quotes of 250 man hours to link a chain shirt is well in line with the crafting rules. But I do think the system needs a from the ground up rebuild.Flat costs are an abstraction I don't like but am willing to deal with. I can't get to youtube at work, is that the one from the shoping channel, where after the sword breaks and hits him in the chest, they still try to sell it as good quality?No, it's a guy called lindybeige who is (i think) a historian, and really good at ancient arms and armor. He makes great videos about different kinds of weapons and armor, as well as general rants about stuff he doesn't like (such as the caps lock key or "designer" stuff).
Personally, for most items I don't mind the construction times this system produces, even if it does't do it in an acurate way. For a couple its out of wack. Armor is accurate, poisons and traps are a little silly IMO. That being said, I don't like how the aid annother rules work for creafting. I think it would be better to have each crafter roll seprately (or perhaps be forced to take 10) and add the value they produce into it, rather than them adding a strict +2.
EDIT: How I ended up handling multiple doses was if your craft roll created enough gold to produce for two doses, then you got two doses of poison. So really it encouraged that you worked on your craft (alchemy) skill. That way when you get five times the price of a single dosage, you can get five doses in a single day, as you're obviously experienced enough to do it en masse.
Once again, simple, elegant, and efficient I would say.
Except it doesn't address the problem of scale.
Even if you have an alchemy skill of +15, take 10 every day for results of 25, and add +10 to the base DC to make acid for a DC of 25, you're making 625s progress per week. Less than 10g/day, for a very good modifier on one of the cheapest alchemic items you could possibly ask to make, with a skill rank high enough that by the time you can make it that fast, acid's probably already obsolete.
Advance the skill to +25 and add +10 to the DC twice for a check result of 35 against DC35 when taking ten? 122.5 g/week. Twelve vials of acid, not even 2/day, out of a +25 modifier.
+25 is huge. A +25 in Perform means you can regularly make DC30 checks, which are described as, "Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant patrons, or even from extraplanar beings." In other words, at +25, your Perform skill is of cosmic significance. Yet at +25, the cosmic super alchemist can make two doses per day of one of the cheapest alchemic item out there.
And even the cheapest of poisons is drow poison at 75g. It would take a +93 Craft (Alchemy) modifier to make two doses of drow poison in a day.
That's a real disconnect, and forcing anyone who wants to make anything in a timely manner to take their crafting skills to epic levels is rather ludicrous.
That's why I'm pushing for the Master Craftsman and Grandmaster Craftsman feat. For most people, the craft remains as it always was. For those who are interested in developing craftsmen, there is a way to supercharge their craft skills.
You shouldn't have to waste a feat to get the abilities you've already invested in to work right in the first place.
However, there are obviously no feats intended to address this nich element of the game. I would propose a bonus to crafting tagged onto the existing Skill Focus feat.
Say, when you have Skill Focus(craft) and make a crafting check, you may either reduce the time by 50% or the cost by 50% or both by 25%. At 10th level, the bonus increases to 80% or 40% for both.
The feat represents the dedicated focus you are making, and the bonuses represent the greater efficiency you have as a result (as opposed to just having had more time to practice).
Have you considered that the rules ARE working as intended?
Setting aside that intent is meaningless next to quality and function?
Only if whoever wrote the rules was exceedingly drunk. However, I'd sooner wager that when they were originally created, the mundane crafting rules were given very little weight and thus very little attention, which is precisely why they fail to fulfill their purpose.
Not that I LIKE this take, but it seems to be a realistic idea. Possessing all the necessary carpentry skills and a blueprint does not a master shipwright make. It takes special knowledge and honed skills, which could be intrepreted as a seperate skill, higher ranks, OR a specialized feat. The third is my guess on how the system was intended.
Craft: Boat Building is its own skill which allows for the creation of small ships. Larger vessels require an entire team of laborers, carpenters, metalworkers, all headed by a project manager, and thus to build a large vessel, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering is required, as per the rules laid out in Stormwrack, which use a completely different timeframe from crafting, setting a flat X month time to create a larger ship, which has its own drawbacks, but considering the creation of a warship is a Big Deal, it's fair enough.
However, if crafting requires a feat that does not exist in order to use, then it is broken by definition. If it requires cosmic or even deific level skill ranks to attain the ability to even use the skill without utterly disrupting the game, then it is utterly broken.
And interpreting that the system was intended to hinge on a feat that was never created strikes me as patently absurd and irrefutable proof that the system does not function at all.
I don't see how people can defend this system, especially when they keep tacking on all these, "If you use this houserule," or, "If you throw the rules out the window," or, "If you create this feat that was obviously intended to be the crux of the system," or whatever else that isn't even a part of the rules to begin with, whether implicit or explicit.
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EDIT: How I ended up handling multiple doses was if your craft roll created enough gold to produce for two doses, then you got two doses of poison. So really it encouraged that you worked on your craft (alchemy) skill. That way when you get five times the price of a single dosage, you can get five doses in a single day, as you're obviously experienced enough to do it en masse.
Once again, simple, elegant, and efficient I would say.
Except it doesn't address the problem of scale.
Even if you have an alchemy skill of +15, take 10 every day for results of 25, and add +10 to the base DC to make acid for a DC of 25, you're making 625s progress per week. Less than 10g/day, for a very good modifier on one of the cheapest alchemic items you could possibly ask to make, with a skill rank high enough that by the time you can make it that fast, acid's probably already obsolete.
Advance the skill to +25 and add +10 to the DC twice for a check result of 35 against DC35 when taking ten? 122.5 g/week. Twelve vials of acid, not even 2/day, out of a +25 modifier.
+25 is huge. A +25 in Perform means you can regularly make DC30 checks, which are described as, "Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant patrons, or even from extraplanar beings." In other words, at +25, your Perform skill is of cosmic significance. Yet at +25, the cosmic super alchemist can make two doses per day of one of the cheapest alchemic item out there.
And even the cheapest of poisons is drow poison at 75g. It would take a +93 Craft (Alchemy) modifier to make two doses of drow poison in a day.
That's a real disconnect, and forcing anyone who wants to make anything in a timely manner to take their crafting skills to epic levels is rather ludicrous.
That's why I'm pushing for the Master Craftsman and Grandmaster Craftsman feat. For most people, the craft remains as it always was. For those who are interested in...
Right, cause you TOTALLY followed the discussion there. Reread it then come back and talk to me, or just read the summary below.
Instead of producing silver pieces a day, you produce gold, and when you produce enough "gold" to produce multiple doses, you get the number of doses you've "produced".
I think the real problem is that the Turnip economy reflected by the RAW Craft skill models okay for some skills as you scale up to Level 6. Weaponsmithing and armorer seem to model reasonably well up to this level, assuming houserule adjustments for RAW values of mithril or at later levels adamantine.
A level 6 character should be considered the high end of mundane, and yet, for certain outlier craft skills, like jewelry, alchemy, gemcutting, traps and, of course poisonmaking, the base values of the items presented within the book simply cannot be made in a sane amount of time when the only contribution to the production cost is measured in check x DC for items with a high value, regardless of what the DC to create might actually be. For example, a 6th level Craft character with a total craft skill modifier of 10 can take 10 to make a total of 5 gp worth of craft objects a day, assuming DC 20 items. Making, for example, a mithril chain shirt, becomes improbable, taking a total of 40 weeks, or the better portion of a year.
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I think your post on performance vs craft does illustrate a strength of the system as it currently stands.
If the Bard with a Performance Bonus of +20 can make 3d6 GP a day with extraordinary performances, then they are able to produce roughly 10 GP a day (or 70 GP a week). This is compared to an untrained laborer who is earning 1 SP a day. In other words the Bard is earning 100 times what the laborer is earning.
A craftsman with Craft Bonus of +20 is either earning 10 GP a week doing his normal thing (dumb option tbh) or he's crafting items specifically.
An alchemist (craft bonus +20) making alchemist fire can make 30 check result x 30 SP worth of alchemist fire a week or roughly 90 GP worth of progress. Subtract out your costs (27 GP worth of materials) and you are clearing 63 GP worth or profit in a given week. Note this is still pretty close to 100x the earnings of the lowly untrained laborer.
The problem isn't so much the productivity of the craftsman, a master craftsman should probably make the same that a master bard makes (the bard can make more money but also can make less in a given week), it's that the cost of items is ridiculously out of whack.
Realistically even standard weapons are ridiculously expensive, the standard laborer would probably have to save up months in order to able to afford a dagger for instance (he does have to eat on that 1 SP you know). Alchemical items and poisons are simply completely absurdist within the confines of the world. Honestly an alchemist would always have stuff on hand because the only people in the world that could afford it are the adventurers.
If a GM really really cared about making the system fair and fairly simulationist they would drop the base prices for things from GP to SP (a long sword would be 15 denarii for example) and then tone down the prices of the outliers (Poisons, Alchemical items, some armor and weaponry) to make them fit this new assumed standard.
Personally I'd work backwards from some sort of rough idea of how much I think a master alchemist might be able to produce in a given week. Let's say our master alchemist (+20 check) should be able to produce 10 flasks of alchemist fire in a given week. If he's able to produce 900 SP worth of work in a given week then each flask of alchemist fire should retail for 9-10 GP. If I decide he can make 100 flasks reasonably then it should retail for 9-10 SP a flask. A powerful poison that requires a week worth of work should retail for 90-100 GP.
This way you don't have to break low level crafting (it's actually fairly accurate) and you don't have to come up with feats the produce multiplier effects. Bonus you actually can make the fantasy economy slightly more realistic.
Obviously, the rules DO work, since you CAN craft using them. No feat required. To use without disrupting the GAME is subjective to the game being played, which you of all people should know is not part of a "baseline" comparison.
Magic item creation and the leadership feat can also be disruptive to the "game", but that does not invalidate the rules or render them useless.
Magic item creation is a fraction of the disruption to get something that's actually meaningful. Two days for a +1 sword as opposed to more than half a year for a suit of masterwork full plate.
That it's possible to do something doesn't mean the rules for doing it are any good.
And 'disruptive to the game' in this case can be established fairly easily. The game has an implied pace, and that pace is pretty quick. Everything else in the entire game that requires downtime only needs a few days. Learning a spell? One day. Scroll of Time Stop? Two days. When you start getting into very high-end magic items, it starts taking longer, but then you're getting something extremely valuable out of it.
These all imply a general rate of expected game flow. If you then take that designed flow and attempt to create a suit of adamantine full plate? Even if you have a whopping +20 armorsmithing, that'll take three and a half years. To subsequently enchant it to +5 (quite badass), it would take three and a half weeks. A massive violation of the flow rate defined in every other aspect of the game. Heck, even if you go into Deities and Demigods and take Hephaestus, a literal god with +85 armorsmithing, it'll still take him four and a half months to make that adamantine plate, and adamantine full plate isn't even very good. It could be subsequently enhanced to +10 (epic level) in less time than it took to make it in the first place.
The system may work as intended, but facilitating it for use in the "game" may need a houserule, or a feat.
So you contend that the system was designed to not be used? Interesting. And how in the world would this be a good thing?
As opposed to throwing in the towel and shouting "BROKEN" at the top of our lungs? Or extolling hyperbole to get our point across? This is not an all-or-nothing position, you know...
Bloody Hell.
I ain't throwing in the towel. I'm calling the existing system busted and in need of fixing. That means the current system is broken and in need of fixing. To retort with, "No, it doesn't need fixing because you can pass all these houserules to fix it," is the height of lunacy.
That said, this is an excellent time to use "rule 0" rather than demand a rewrite of a nich element of the game. In depth rules that take into consideration all elements of crafting are fine, but useless in any game that does not use crafting. Which is a totally different situation from the vancian casting system or the bab combat system, which are supposed to come up a lot.
I never demanded anything of anyone. I'm saying, "These rules as written are bad." And they are. They are indefensibly horrible and utterly unusable. That they can be changed out for a set of rules that don't suck does not change the fact that the existing set sucks.
I'm not saying, "Don't fix it." I'm saying, "This needs fixing."
Right, cause you TOTALLY followed the discussion there. Reread it then come back and talk to me, or just read the summary below.
Instead of producing silver pieces a day, you produce gold, and when you produce enough "gold" to produce multiple doses, you get the number of doses you've "produced".
The math on the scale still doesn't pan out, even with measurement in gold. A single dose of black lotus from a very skilled (+20) alchemist is still five weeks, during which time a Wizard could make more than twenty scrolls of as many ninth-level spells.
It appears that the issues that seem to be called out as problems with the time it takes to craft higher DC items are caused by the degree of abstraction in the system. A close read of the Craft skill suggests that procurement of the materials needed for crafting should be included in the crafting time for the item. It is then internally consistent for more expensive (and hence, rarer and harder to obtain) items to take longer to procure the required quantities/purities/etc. There are certain cases that still do not fit in the system (Why does making a gold ring take longer than an iron ring, even though gold is not necessarily hard to come by, just expensive).
Except it doesn't say that at all, anywhere, and all but explicitly states the exact opposite. And that interpretation is still completely and utterly nonsensical and fails to explain anything. If I just spent the last six months looking for a black lotus, I'm certainly going to take the opportunity to get enough for more than one dose. It's just a case of desperately flailing to find excuses for a broken system.
<Sensible mathematics and logic>
I approve of this. Though I'd sooner ignore the income aspect, as by the time you get to the higher skill ranks, the income's become meaningless.
It'd be one thing if the rules were bad because they were too simple. Then you could at least argue 'eh, it's not important, if you want extra rules, go nuts.'
The fact that the rules are bad and really complex, more complex than any other skill in the game, boggles me.
Amusingly, I was working out some ideas for constructs and realized that it took far far far more time to, say, build a 200 gp construct framework (mundane crafting) than it took to craft the 10,000 gp construct (craft construct).
At that point I threw up my hands and just dropped the mundane part as absurd.
The rules are realistic for the most part. Sure, there are some flaws, but for MOST things the time is accurate. Yes, it takes Hephestus a couple months to solo make a suit of adamantine full plate. That is fairly acurate IMO.
No, its not a good mechanic to play. No, it doesn't work for everything. But for the most part, it is acurate to real life times, with some exceptions. IMO the magic crafting is more busted than the normal crafting.
VV, sometimes I wonder if we are reading the same thing.
It'd be one thing if the rules were bad because they were too simple. Then you could at least argue 'eh, it's not important, if you want extra rules, go nuts.'
The fact that the rules are bad and really complex, more complex than any other skill in the game, boggles me.
Amusingly, I was working out some ideas for constructs and realized that it took far far far more time to, say, build a 200 gp construct framework (mundane crafting) than it took to craft the 10,000 gp construct (craft construct).
At that point I threw up my hands and just dropped the mundane part as absurd.
Really? I would have added the mundane crafting time onto the magical crafting time, as the magical part is to apply the enchantment, not create the item.
Really? I would have added the mundane crafting time onto the magical crafting time, as the magical part is to apply the enchantment, not create the item.
Sure. Except then it takes incredibly long to make even small constructs.
An iron golem takes almost 3 months to enchant, 80,000 gp. That's a long time, but hey, that's reasonable.
If you have +20 Craft (armor) and take 10, it takes 3 years to sculpt the iron body you are going to enchant (worth 10,000 gp). Not reasonable. (And if you somehow manage +30 Craft, it's over 2 years, still)
Magic item creation is a fraction of the disruption to get something that's actually meaningful. Two days for a +1 sword as opposed to more than half a year for a suit of masterwork full plate.
Magic Item creation works fine, until you try to model where the components to make a sword +1 come from. Assuming they come from any Craft skill quickly scales into absurdity, but I would assume most forges or item creation labs don't have gold piece slots.
The rules are realistic for the most part. Sure, there are some flaws, but for MOST things the time is accurate.
Almost forgot this one... not really. The rules miss reality in a bunch of ways, including: in RL it takes a week to make composite bows and a month to let them dry, it takes a day to make regular bows and a week to let them dry (fail), in RL you can make more than one item a day, and sometimes many many items.
Value and time needed to craft are not strongly correlated at all in RL.
Historic house prices weren't anywhere NEAR what they are in D&D. (This isn't terribly important, but I feel bad for anyone who wants a house for flavor reasons and has a DM who doesn't want to houserule)
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Amusingly, I was working out some ideas for constructs and realized that it took far far far more time to, say, build a 200 gp construct framework (mundane crafting) than it took to craft the 10,000 gp construct (craft construct).
You're going from mundane to magic? Things stop being realistic once magic is applied. That's why its magic. :p
I don't mind the lack of realism, I mind the lack of fun or balance.
(Or, more accurately, I first grump at a lack of fun or balance, and then get annoyed to find it's also wildly unrealistic, too)
Really? I would have added the mundane crafting time onto the magical crafting time, as the magical part is to apply the enchantment, not create the item.Sure. Except then it takes incredibly long to make even small constructs.
An iron golem takes almost 3 months to enchant, 80,000 gp. That's a long time, but hey, that's reasonable.
If you have +20 Craft (armor) and take 10, it takes 3 years to sculpt the iron body you are going to enchant (worth 10,000 gp). Not reasonable. (And if you somehow manage +30 Craft, it's over 2 years, still)
Any self respecting wizard who doesn't cast Wall of Iron (multiple times if necessary) to get the required Iron and then Fabricate spells (repeat as necessary) deserves to get stuck handcrafting the damn golem ;)
The rules are realistic for the most part. Sure, there are some flaws, but for MOST things the time is accurate. Yes, it takes Hephestus a couple months to solo make a suit of adamantine full plate. That is fairly acurate IMO.
...
Okay. I have to ask. How do you get any notion of what constitutes "accurate" when talking about a god working with a nonexistent metal?
No, its not a good mechanic to play. No, it doesn't work for everything. But for the most part, it is acurate to real life times, with some exceptions. IMO the magic crafting is more busted than the normal crafting.
Except its silliness and absurdity is more prolific than its accuracy. It's absolutely not realistic in most cases, and in fact any case in which it is accurate may as well be coincidence.
Within the rules, a suit of padded armor, a greatclub, and a unique signet ring, and any conceivable tool for any conceivable trade all take the exact same amount of time to make because they have the same price. There is no arguing that this is realistic. A violin, a piano, and a drum all take just as long to make, and in fact you can make a common piano in a day if you really wanted. With that +20 mod, you could make a masterwork piano in less than a week. Nothing in the world can possibly be made with less than one day's labor, because Craft check timess bottom out at one day.
And of course, there's the matter of all the various poisons. Just plucking a few hemlock leaves from your garden takes half a year if you're an expert alchemist (+20).
No, for the most part, it's very silly and arbitrary, and any parallels with reality are little more than coincidence.
The rules for traveling overland require characters to spend perhaps weeks of time going from point A to B. Teleport shortcuts around the issue. Does travel after 9th level "break the pace of the game"? Are the overland rules "broken" therefore?
The entire party traveling across the country is continuing the game. The entire party staying put for 3.5 years while the dwarf makes a suit of adamantine full plate? Not so much.
Any self respecting wizard who doesn't cast Wall of Iron (multiple times if necessary) to get the required Iron and then Fabricate spells (repeat as necessary) deserves to get stuck handcrafting the damn golem ;)
Actually, PF Wall of Iron doesn't produce usable iron anymore. "Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."
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I don't mind the lack of realism, I mind the lack of fun or balance.
(Or, more accurately, I first grump at a lack of fun or balance, and then get annoyed to find it's also wildly unrealistic, too)
I still don't see the lack of fun or balance, sorry to say, but lack of realism can get annoying. Of course, many of the items in question don't actually exist, (i'm looking at you Dragon Bile). You have to suspend believability from the get go, but try to truck along to a solution. For me, the times in question do seem pretty close to the mark.
Besides, what are half of these things made of anyway??? I swear, pixie dust must be in short supply these days :P.
Any self respecting wizard who doesn't cast Wall of Iron (multiple times if necessary) to get the required Iron and then Fabricate spells (repeat as necessary) deserves to get stuck handcrafting the damn golem ;)Actually, PF Wall of Iron doesn't produce usable iron anymore. "Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."
Ohh that's a moderately good change. I'd still prefer that wall of iron not be permanent but it's a definitely a positive (if somewhat nonsensical) change.
I still don't see the lack of fun or balance, sorry to say,
Lack of fun, lack of balance:
'I'd like to craft my own suit of adamantine full plate. It will take years? I suppose that might be character building...'"Oh cool, I finished making my MW full plate into +3 light fortification!"
'Wait, doesn't that cost more than adamantine full plate?'
"Yep"
'How long did it take you??'
"Oh, I bought MW full plate last month, and took three weeks to enchant it."
'... Well, I'm sure adamantine full plate will be better than +3 light fortification full plate, right?'
"Not really."
'... sigh.'
Lack of fun: crafting mundane stuff because it's cool for my character involves huge annoyances, headaches, and inconveniences for myself and everyone around me.
Lack of balance: crafting mundane stuff because it's cool for my character is much more difficult, much less effective and useful than either just buying it or crafting magic stuff, even when prices are comparable.
but lack of realism can get annoying. Of course, many of the items in question don't actually exist, (i'm looking at you Dragon Bile). You have to suspend believability from the get go, but try to truck along to a solution. For me, the times in question do seem pretty close to the mark.
Again, easy example:
Longbow vs. composite longbow.This is a case where the craft system is actually wrong in a nice way, because composite longbows take anywhere between 4x to 7x (depending on whether you add in the drying time or not) as long to make as regular longbows in reality.
In D&D, composite longbows are 1 1/3 x the cost of regular longbows, so take ~1.3x as long to make.
Then the other example that gets quoted a bunch:
Exquisite torque made of iron.
Exquisite torque made of gold.
Despite gold being a softer metal and easier to work with, it will take possibly 100x as long to make a gold torque as an iron one.
Technically it takes at least a day to make a single arrow (I assumed there was a rule for making arrows 50 at a time or something, but I haven't seen it).
You don't have to resort to playing guessing games with made up stuff to decide the times are unrealistic, there are plenty of, well, real things to look at.
A fighter with big strength can rip a gate off it's hinges, a monk can punch THROUGH a suit of armor, a rogue can climb a perfectly smooth wall...
...But making simple craft items in less then a day? That's just not realistic!
Whenever the cry of "realism!" is used, it's the sign of a failed argument. Verisimilitude, sure, that's very important, but realism? We abandoned realism at level 1 when we got a 16 for strength.
Unfortunately, even the claim to realism is wrong too, as the crafting requirements, well, aren't realistic. It takes a day - an ENTIRE day - to make a single dart.
The rules are just borked in every way. They aren't realistic, they aren't balanced, they aren't fun, and they lack verisimilitude.
Are polls allowed on this forum? We should totally start a poll on who thinks the Crafting rules work just fine, and who thinks they need change.
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Hmm I see it both ways here on the one hand the current craft rules take forever but on the other being able to craft certain things very quickly in large quantities is not desirable either. These days I generally compromise by saying that the craft rules represent someone who is generally assembling something together in there spare time and in less than perfect conditions If they manage dedicate a significant amount of there time to it and have the right conditions (ie smithing in a forge, creating poison in an alchemists lab etc,I significantly decrease the crafting time to reflect this.
Lack of fun: crafting mundane stuff because it's cool for my character involves huge annoyances, headaches, and inconveniences for myself and everyone around me.
Lack of balance: crafting mundane stuff because it's cool for my character is much more difficult, much less effective and useful than either just buying it or crafting magic stuff, even when prices are comparable.
Agree - the amount of time it takes to get Adam Full Plate made is in YEARS, yet a Magic Suit is nowhere near that.
Personally, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced.
I think EITHER:
Rebalance the mechanic to reduce build times for mundane items (possibly by IGNORING 'material cost' for exotics).
OR
Increase the magic item creation time by having the manufacturer be involved in the production of the BASE item to be enchanted - ie he CANNOT 'just go buy' a suit of pre-fab M/Work armour - he needs to be involved in building the armour as a base and then enchant it... even if all he does is provide 'aid another' to a master craftsman.