Baleful Polymorph on a dragon


Rules Questions


Tonight we cast Baleful polymorph on a dragon. The sorceress got through the Spell resistance of the dragon and the dragon rolled a 1 on it's fort save but succeeded on the will save.

We know that it gets all of it's abilities but what happens to it's hit points and armor class. Does it keep the HP/HD of a dragon or the HP/HD of the creature it was turned into? The same question for it's AC, does it keep the AC of a dragon or become the AC of the new creature?


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The Mighty Geckoe wrote:

Tonight we cast Baleful polymorph on a dragon. The sorceress got through the Spell resistance of the dragon and the dragon rolled a 1 on it's fort save but succeeded on the will save.

We know that it gets all of it's abilities but what happens to it's hit points and armor class. Does it keep the HP/HD of a dragon or the HP/HD of the creature it was turned into? The same question for it's AC, does it keep the AC of a dragon or become the AC of the new creature?

I don't know but that's got to be the angriest kitten in the world.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
The Mighty Geckoe wrote:

Tonight we cast Baleful polymorph on a dragon. The sorceress got through the Spell resistance of the dragon and the dragon rolled a 1 on it's fort save but succeeded on the will save.

We know that it gets all of it's abilities but what happens to it's hit points and armor class. Does it keep the HP/HD of a dragon or the HP/HD of the creature it was turned into? The same question for it's AC, does it keep the AC of a dragon or become the AC of the new creature?

I don't know but that's got to be the angriest kitten in the world.

I dunno it's kinda cute... YAAAAAOOOOUUUCH! That WAS my finger!


The Mighty Geckoe wrote:

Tonight we cast Baleful polymorph on a dragon. The sorceress got through the Spell resistance of the dragon and the dragon rolled a 1 on it's fort save but succeeded on the will save.

We know that it gets all of it's abilities but what happens to it's hit points and armor class. Does it keep the HP/HD of a dragon or the HP/HD of the creature it was turned into? The same question for it's AC, does it keep the AC of a dragon or become the AC of the new creature?

Same thing happened to a Vrock in one of my games. Evil demon to small sparrow.

AC almost certainly should change. Size, natural armour and dex has all been altered by the spell which affects armour class.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

The PRD (and then here) would suggest +6 size bonus to Dex, -4 size penalty to Str, +1 to nat AC, and then forcing the target to make a Will save or lose all

PRD wrote:
its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.


The Mighty Geckoe wrote:

Tonight we cast Baleful polymorph on a dragon. The sorceress got through the Spell resistance of the dragon and the dragon rolled a 1 on it's fort save but succeeded on the will save.

We know that it gets all of it's abilities but what happens to it's hit points and armor class. Does it keep the HP/HD of a dragon or the HP/HD of the creature it was turned into? The same question for it's AC, does it keep the AC of a dragon or become the AC of the new creature?

hitpoints : remain the same

armorclass : replace old size modifier by new size modifier (tiny), you need to recalculate the dragon's ability scores as described in the polymorph section (page 212), natural armor becomes + 1.

well it keeps all of it's spells (though it might be unable to cast them), spell-like abilities.

it loses extraordinary and supernatural abilities based on form,
well that wouldn't necesarily include breathweapon I suppose at least modify it for the new size as per dragon description, though it loses dragon senses, (and I'd say frightful presence too :p)

I have an urge to watch monty python's quest for the holy grail again ^^

Liberty's Edge

That group will have a chicken with a breath weapon and 180 hit points on its hands. It will have a significant AC drop (an adult blue dragon has +20 natural armor)


*Thread Necromancy spell cast*

In a recent game session the party managed to Baleful Polymorph a young red dragon into a pig (it was already on a solid surface, otherwise it would have had a bonus on its saving throw). Cue the angry Barbarian fighting a fire-breathing pig on the flat-ish roof of the schoolhouse/orphanage! :)

(While no longer a "Save or Suck" spell unless the target fails both saving throws, Baleful Polymorph is still an effective de-buff spell.)


Not Baleful Polymorph - but similar lines...

If a Red Dragon, Old suffered the indignity of Touch Injection with Elixir of the Infernal Familiar (possibly with Spectral Hand)

1) Would it's resulting stat block look like this? WORLD'S DEADLIEST CAT:

[:
Red Dragon, Old (Infernal gray cat form)
LG Tiny dragon (fire)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 150', low-light vision, scent; Perception +28 aura, frightful presence
---DEFENSE---
AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 220 (21d12+84)
Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +18
DR; Immune fire?, paralysis, sleep; SR
Weaknesses
Vulnerability to cold?
---OFFENSE--
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +27 (1d2+6) bite +27 (1d3+9/19-20)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks None

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 21st; concentration +25)
. At will— detect magic, pyrotechnics (DC 16), suggestion (DC 17), wall of fire

Spells Known (CL 11th; concentration +15) (cannot cast spells with V)
. 5th (4/day)— teleport, wall of force
. 4th (7/day)— fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
. 3rd (7/day)— dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues
. 2nd (7/day)— alter self, detect thoughts, misdirection, resist energy, see invisibility
. 1st (7/day)— alarm, grease (DC 15), magic missile, shield, true strike
. 0 (at will)— arcane mark, bleed, light, magehand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic

Str 23, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 18
Base Atk +21; CMB +25; CMD 44 (48 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Critical Focus, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +28, Bluff +28, Diplomacy +28, Fly +13, Intimidate +28, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Perception +28, Sense Motive +28, Spellcraft +28, Stealth +35
Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Orc (understands, but does not speak)

Special:
+ 10 on disguise check to pass as a cat
Size –4 penalty on Intimidate checks if smaller than target.
Paw prints leave a trail of scorch marks that smell faintly of sulfur.
Note: I left Fire Resistance & Cold Vulnerability as I think it keeps Fire subtype(?)]

2) Assuming the dragon will likely use a standard action to resume it's original form on it's initiative & that the Touch Injection caster timed their spell after the Dragon's turn (or during it when the dragon no longer had a standard left)- what actions would your party take while it was a cat? Punch through spells or weapon damage w/o SR & DR? Stuff it in a study cage?

Liberty's Edge

SR is a supernatural ability, it doesn't lose it.
DR can be natural or supernatural. It is the GM that decides that.

The polymorphed creature loses the abilities that are form dependant.

The whole idea is centered on the simple fact that potions and elixir don't have a save/SR line as they are meant for voluntary use. I would treat them as infusions of personal spells:
"In the case of a personal infused extract, the opponent receives both a Fortitude save and spell resistance."


I think the cat could Power Attack & Greater Vital Strike to deliver:
1 bite +21(4d3+27/19-20) (+25 to attempt to confirm critical).

As a player injecting a dragon with the Elixir of the Infernal Familiar seems funny. As a GM having the dragon take it itself, saunter up to a PC in camp, jump up in the PCs lap and then bite them for about 33 damage would be pretty funny too.


Double Necro? It's so vivid!


"The Might of the Swarm shall CONSUME and DEVOUR you all! Come... accept your fate... and be purified of your WEAKNESS of living flesh, and become Perfected through Undeath...."


certainly a "save or suck" spell.
As a PC you'd have to ask the Sorceress in the game if you can't cast the spell or Identify the spell.

The dragon gains the new form but retains its mind and most things(see posts above), along with knowing who did this. Likely it'll retreat and fix the condition then come after the hoard robbers one by one...

Liberty's Edge

AoN wrote:
Breath Weapon (Su)

So, the Dragon retains its breath weapon. Fun.

A cat with a very bad breath.


Diego Rossi wrote:

SR is a supernatural ability, it doesn't lose it.

DR can be natural or supernatural. It is the GM that decides that.

The polymorphed creature loses the abilities that are form dependant.

Transmutation school states, "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."

So all Supernatural & Extraordinary abilities are on the table- depending on whether they are granted by the form including: Breath Weapon (SU) & Spell Resistance (EX).

Since Breath Weapon & Damage Reduction (at higher levels) are granted to the target of Form of the Dragon I-III, Form of the Alien Dragon I-III & Form of the Exotic Dragon I-III - I think a very strong case could be made that they are an attribute of the form (& therefore lost).

Fire Resistance/Immunity and Cold Vulnerability are also granted by the form of the Dragon spells - but I think they are linked to the (Fire) subtype of the Dragon rather than just the fact it is a Dragon - so I reapplied those to the Cat (Fire).

The fact that the Form of the Dragon spells don't grant SR is probably evidence that it not form dependent (though I think it might be excluded for balance as giving the benefit of 5th level Spell Resistance along with all the other benefits of 6th level Form of the Dragon I might be too strong) - but since the SR is age dependent (not size dependent) I guess I would agree it is retained.

Diego Rossi wrote:

The whole idea is centered on the simple fact that potions and elixir don't have a save/SR line as they are meant for voluntary use. I would treat them as infusions of personal spells:

"In the case of a personal infused extract, the opponent receives both a Fortitude save and spell resistance."

I don't feel like forcing the dragon into Cat form briefly & making it burn a standard to revert is broken in the way that Skin Send & some other past proposals are - mostly because the cat form is still very powerful (more so with retained SR). I was actually surprised by how much the dragon retains. The temporary reductions to 220 HP & damage output are painful and the reduction in Natural Armor is more so - but the Dragon should probably still be rocking Stone Skin, Haste, Shield & Resist Energy.

I'd probably allow a party to get away with it _once_ on the BBEG if the BBEG was pushing the CR for the party- and let them know (free successful knowledge check) that they feel in their hearts the planets were perfectly aligned when the attempt worked - but probably won't be in future- (which is probably good if the PCs don't want to spend a lot of future combats as cats for a round).


Anyone else miss the good old Polymorph Other which just turned the target into a perfectly normal member of the target species?


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Anyone else miss the good old Polymorph Other which just turned the target into a perfectly normal member of the target species?

In 5e there's more limits about what you can choose - but when someone is polymorphed you just use the MM entry - it's does make it very fast/easy.

Liberty's Edge

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Anyone else miss the good old Polymorph Other which just turned the target into a perfectly normal member of the target species?

I miss it until I recall what people could do in 3-3.5 with Polymorph others and Shape change, especially when they had a ring of spell storing capable to keep 10 levels of spells.

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