Witch's slightly offensive and a one dimensional


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


I'll start off say I really loved the Idea of having a Witch class in the as a base class. But as a student of Witch mythology and the religion I found myself (surprisingly) offended by how they where portrayed. And it acutely took me a few moments to realize why. Witch's in mythology, history and fantasy have Two distinctive and conflicting images , healers and sages or the Hag and deamonologist. The class for the most part seems to cater to the more negative aspect. For those that follow the “Craft” this can be a bit offensive. But it is part of the mythology an and indeed history. But as it's presented in this game context it also makes the class a bit one- dimensional.
While witches are skill in casting curses and hexes they are also skilled in warding against, protecting and removing them. If the class was made to cater to both aspects it it would be a much more interesting and balanced class.

The ability to scenes curses
the Ability to gives party member(s) a bonus to Save against cure and or a second save against the Cures/hex with a bonus (thus removing it)
the ability to counter many of the hexes and curs the may cast.

Remove cackle its just silly maybe replace with: Moppet or doll if witch posses a moppet or doll to represent player effected by cure ( it would do same affect as cackle) .

To make the class really work appeal equity to both sides of the theme. Make a better class and better playing enjoyment and resource for GM's. I really would like to see this class work. Please realize the theme of witchcraft and as if very broad and with would be good to see it represented and a balanced and respectful way that clerics and druid's are. In closing it king of seems like the designer wanted to make A PC Hag class but while Hag's may be witches witches are not , all<grin>, Hags. I hope my insight helps and it is coming from a love of your game and the theme.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Granfather wrote:

I'll start off say I really loved the Idea of having a Witch class in the as a base class. But as a student of Witch mythology and the religion I found myself (surprisingly) offended by how they where portrayed. And it acutely took me a few moments to realize why. Witch's in mythology, history and fantasy have Two distinctive and conflicting images , healers and sages or the Hag and deamonologist. The class for the most part seems to cater to the more negative aspect. For those that follow the “Craft” this can be a bit offensive. But it is part of the mythology an and indeed history. But as it's presented in this game context it also makes the class a bit one- dimensional.

While witches are skill in casting curses and hexes they are also skilled in warding against, protecting and removing them. If the class was made to cater to both aspects it it would be a much more interesting and balanced class.

The ability to scenes curses
the Ability to gives party member(s) a bonus to Save against cure and or a second save against the Cures/hex with a bonus (thus removing it)
the ability to counter many of the hexes and curs the may cast.

Remove cackle its just silly maybe replace with: Moppet or doll if witch posses a moppet or doll to represent player effected by cure ( it would do same affect as cackle)

To make the class really work appeal equity to both sides of the theme. Make a better class and better playing enjoyment and resource for GM's. I really would like to see this class work. Please realize the theme of witchcraft and as if very broad and with would be good to see it represented and a balanced and respectful way that clerics and druid's are. In closing it king of seems like the designer wanted to make A PC Hag class but while Hag's may be witches witches are not , all<grin>, Hags. I hope my insight helps and it is coming from a love of your game and the theme.

I dont mind some more emphasis on the 'positive' side of witch mythology. But 'anti hex' abilities would be extremely circumstantial. Unless you make witches a staple of your game world the ability to provide bonuses vs hexes is not a good ability, and would be meaningless in most encounters. Even if you include curses its still highly circumstantial and wont really improve the apeal of the class, or it's 'image'. No one would take these options (assuming they are optional).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

A remove curse hex that is more powerful then the normal remove curse, but usable 1/day/target and can affect both curses and hexes might be a good addition ot the repertoire of major hexes.


Consider instead of "anti-hex" something more like "anti-debuff".

For instance, the enemy cleric casts Doom at the fighter (or Domination, or any other kind of effect). The ally witch manipulates the fighter-keyed fetish (like a doll, or more appropriately, a charm made of his hair) and the effect is countered.

This just defines "hex" a lot more broadly to mean "mind-affecting ability that allows a WILL save" or somesuch.


Granfather wrote:
I'll start off say I really loved the Idea of having a Witch class in the as a base class. But as a student of Witch mythology and the religion I found myself (surprisingly) offended by how they where portrayed.

I think that the class is really modeled on Witchcraft according to Hollywood, not on Wicca. The Witch 'Hexes' are a mixed bag of party-aiding effects, and foe-cursing effects, and so I don't think it focuses only on the 'Evil Witch' stereotype. The class can support the 'Good Witch' stereotype as well, just interpret 'Cackle' as giggling.


Dilvish the Danged wrote:
I think that the class is really modeled on Witchcraft according to Hollywood, not on Wicca.

I'm going to be flamed for this, but...

Wicca, as a religion, is not descriptive of witchcraft, either in the classical world, the mythological world, the various folklore traditions of Europe and Asia, or the medieval witchcraft scare context. It really should be left completly out of the discussion.

This is NOT to say that witches were not portrayed as helpful at various times. Look at the myriad traditions of Baba Yaga, a very archetypal witch. Sometimes she ate people, other times she helped them out. That extreme bipolar quality is repeated again and again in folklore traditions as concerns witches (and even rogue shamans in the Americas).

PFRPG being a fantasy game, I believe that the mythological and folklore traditions are the most appropriate to use, and the witch class covers many aspects of the folklore tradition while the Oracle covers much of the mythological tradition.


As a wiccan myself (for 20+years) I find
nothing offensive about the class and heres why.
First off the class is modeled after mostly
fairytales and not real life wicca.
Second, even though it is molded on fairy tales
it allows you to play witches of any alignment.
So it is not the class of witch that is evil,
but those who take it up for thier own evil ends.
When I first heard they were going to do the witch I
too was worried. Now having said all that I do feel
class has alot of rework that has to be done, but
that is all about mechanics and not the way it is portrayed.

Liberty's Edge

Someone wanting to play a Wiccan Witch would be better off playing a druid or cleric with appropriate domains. As a Wiccan myself I suppose I would like a specifically Wiccan Witch class but its just a preference or bias. I am not offended by Paizo making a 'fairy tale' witch.

A more Wiccan themed fantasy Witch would have a totally different focus.

1. ability to combine as a group to cast more powerful spells.

2. Ability to cast long range curse type spells and other spells, and similarly remove them.

3. Healing spells

4. divination spells/second sight (ability to see spirits and detect magick)

5. candle magick, rope magick, astral projection, luck magick, herbalism/potions

6. Exorcism and cleansing/banishment type effects. Bindings (ability to geas someone to do/not do something)

7. weather magick

8. familiar

9. sympathetic magick. Bonuses when you have somethign related to subject and ability to cast certain spells at subjects any distance away if you have something you can use with sympathy.

Very little in the way of direct damage spells. No armour. combat ability as a wizard.

More skill points than a wizard. Probably 4-6 per class level. Class skills:

knowledge: local, nature, arcane, religion
craft: herbalism, alchemy
sense motive, persuasion, perception. and euphemistically for persecution, stealth and disguise.

The class would likey be charisma based, and spontaneous casting like a sorceress.


Exiled Prince - +1

Aurore - Reading your post made me thing of the index in the back of Amber K's True Magick... LOL

I also have to agree as an neokeltic pagan (close to wiccan) as well. The parellels are closer to the Brothers Grimm or something similar in fiction. There actually was a third-party publisher who put out a class that was pretty close to modern wicca, and a friend who was unaware of my religious beliefs played that. Much more offensive to me the way he played it, but whatever.

I'm not trying to start a religion flaming or such, but I was so fond of playing the witch (along with the new AGP classes) I added a spot on the familiar sheet for spell storage (I try to avoid class specific stuff). It all comes down to the fact that players will play their character to their perspectives. Nothings gonna change that. Offensive characters (the stripper bard) will still be offensive.

One last thing, my asatru fiance plays her paladin as a norse shieldmaiden. She slays evil along side the traditional priestly cleric... fun stuff.


First off I'll say I too am a pagan not a wiccan but a pagan. I say that only because its not about religion its about respect for the theme. I would like reclarify That I found my self offended not by how witches where portrayed in this class but by the limited scope. The class as it read now is not its not a witch class its more of a racial class for a hag. A character classed should be open within in their theme. The class as it reads now is way too narrow in its theme focus ( thats the players job).
Of course there are there are classes with a narrower theme by default , Palidains being a good example, but evey the can be braode in theme as read above. Witches as history mythology and fantasy has shown us are not a class of limited scope they are as dynamic as priests, druids, wizards and sorcerers are ( a least as the are now now in pathfinder). If the class is to be included its theme needs to be less Hag more Witch ( historical, fantasy or other wise). Let they player's define the type and give them the ability to do so.
The class has a good core start But as a player and Dm I'd just like to I'd if I'm going play or make a Witch I want to make a Witch Be she Morgana Defay or Herermini 8). The Witch class theme is broud anuff to supore multi perspectives. As as its wirting now its a too foused to to one.


If off o have to appology I was miss intrerpered the mount of hex and valume withch they got. With at being said the class still seemed a bit limeted more like a NPC class then PC at the momont.
maybe giveing them scry as a hex or a bonus with scrying.

Make caulren a class skill rather then Hex


Granfather wrote:

If off o have to appology I was miss intrerpered the mount of hex and valume withch they got. With at being said the class still seemed a bit limeted more like a NPC class then PC at the momont.

maybe giveing them scry as a hex or a bonus with scrying.
Make caulren a class skill rather then Hex

A friendly suggestion: It will be much easier for others to respond and have dialog if the posts were easier to understand. I cannot understand the first sentence, for instance. I myself am prone to misspelling and typo's, so I am not judging. And if English is not your primary language, then that's the end of it.

But, if possible, could you make the posts a bit more legible?

The Exchange

Aurore, not sure if you've read the class, but it has most of the abilities you mention.

1. It has the ability to cast with others, albeit only if you have a hag. I think this ability should be extended to make it available to good witches (ie. the fricken party) by making it something like a cooperative spellcasting hex

2. Not sure exactly how long range you're talking, but they do have Evil Eye as one of the hexes, which is a ranged curse, and they do have access to the spell Remove Curse. And if you want, you can cast bestow curse through Spectral Hand for a "long ranged" curse.

3. The Witch class gets quite a few healing spells, and 2 healing hexes.

4. The Witch has divination spells

5. Not sure about candle magic or rope magic (other than Animate Rope) but they do get Astral Projection, a luck hex, and a hex that gives her brew potion even at level 1.

6. Well, you do have a point here. The class doesn't really have anything to make it able to bind/banish anything.

7. Weather hexes, Control Weather, and Storm of Vengeance are all possessed by the class

8. The familiar is the core concept of the class

9. That... would actually be pretty cool

Now, I'm not trying to debunk a religion or anything, it just seems like the current class fits most of what your saying mechanics-wise, if not flavor-wise. I've personally always believed that religion (outside of the fake in-game religions) should be left at the door in the interest of everyone's fun.

EDIT: Also, herbalism is a profession, which they do have access to. Granted, it doesn't actually do anything unless the DM houserules something...


I think he meant long range as in like in another country or across town.


i myself at first glance thought the witch was a one sided (evil) worthless class, but after meticulously reviewing the spell lists ive come to realise, its really got the best spells of wizard and cleric if you simply take the viper companion and use the features as just that, extra crap you don't need.

but back to the point, the spell list itself caters to removals and curses. I think your just stuck on the features as i was at first glance.


Wasn't Wicca religion only started about last 40+ years (not the pagan beliefs but the actual religion). So hard to understand how one could confuse witches with Wicca.

More protective hexes would be good either way.


Starbuck_II wrote:

Wasn't Wicca religion only started about last 40+ years (not the pagan beliefs but the actual religion). So hard to understand how one could confuse witches with Wicca.

More protective hexes would be good either way.

Order of the Golden Dawn (Alastair Crowley et. al.) founded Wiccan. Probably closer to 80 years ago than 40.

In any case Wiccan does not equal folkloric Witch any more than the Druid class reflects the Neo-Druidic belief structure, or use of the word "demon" means that this is all satanic somehow.

You shouldn't be offended that the Witch class doesn't reflect who you are as a Wiccan. It's not supposed to. Also, if you really studied witch folklore as you claim, you would know that "witches" have been "hexing" people for centuries. Ever heard of the "Evil Eye"?

Anyhoo. That's about all I have to say about. Get unoffended, it's a game.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Dilvish the Danged wrote:
I think that the class is really modeled on Witchcraft according to Hollywood, not on Wicca.

I'm going to be flamed for this, but...

Wicca, as a religion, is not descriptive of witchcraft, either in the classical world, the mythological world, the various folklore traditions of Europe and Asia, or the medieval witchcraft scare context. It really should be left completly out of the discussion.

This is NOT to say that witches were not portrayed as helpful at various times. Look at the myriad traditions of Baba Yaga, a very archetypal witch. Sometimes she ate people, other times she helped them out. That extreme bipolar quality is repeated again and again in folklore traditions as concerns witches (and even rogue shamans in the Americas).

PFRPG being a fantasy game, I believe that the mythological and folklore traditions are the most appropriate to use, and the witch class covers many aspects of the folklore tradition while the Oracle covers much of the mythological tradition.

I'll jump in the fire with you :)

Modern Wicca is not an issue here, as it in no way resembles the mythical/historic/folklore witch (and I say this as a practicing pagan of twenty five plus years, as well as the owner of a pagan store).

This is a fantasy game, that is drawing it's inspiration from folklore.
In folklore, witches where individuals who where always treat with some suspicion, because they acted from their own personal motivations rather than on the tribes behalf.

The approach they are taking with the class is pretty true to the historical image of a witch, and in no way a reflection on the modern religion of Wicca.


Starbuck_II wrote:

Wasn't Wicca religion only started about last 40+ years (not the pagan beliefs but the actual religion). So hard to understand how one could confuse witches with Wicca.

More protective hexes would be good either way.

Wicca and "witch" are not the same thing ;)

One (Wicca) is a modern religion, that is just over fifty years old.

Witchcraft, is just that, a craft....or set of skills.
You can be of any religion, and practice witchcraft.

Pagan, at least as the term is applied in modern vernacular, is an umbrella term for pre-christian religious practices from any culture, which wicca draws heavily from.

The only similarity is that many Wiccans also practice witchcraft.

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