|
You know who doesn't have true sight and wind walk at high levels? Fighters. What tricks does the fighter class give?
He doesn't have to have True Sight or Wind Walk.
A pair of Boots of Flying and a Gem of Seeing will take care of that and the Blind-Fight feat helps out too.
Or are we going with that "well it's not a class feature b&@%+@$%"?
You know who doesn't have true sight and wind walk at high levels? Fighters. What tricks does the fighter class give?You want to blame the fighter for not having those abilitis but you forgot to mention that neither of Ranges, barbarians, paladins, cavaliers have wind walk or true sight.
Double check the totems and spell list. They do have things they can do with only their class features.
You know who doesn't have true sight and wind walk at high levels? Fighters. What tricks does the fighter class give?He doesn't have to have True Sight or Wind Walk.
A pair of Boots of Flying and a Gem of Seeing will take care of that and the Blind-Fight feat helps out too.
Or are we going with that "well it's not a class feature b+#!+~#&"?
Yeah, that's not class features. I asked what tricks the fighter class gives and you show me magic items anyone can use... That has nothing to do with the fighter class. Don't forget it cost money.
Is there a reason that wasn't used on the caster himself? Have an example of a fighter only thing? Also this thread was about out of combat so why are we talking about in combat things.
|
|
Is there a reason that wasn't used on the caster himself? Have an example of a fighter only thing? Also this thread was about out of combat so why are we talking about in combat things.
Are you seriously asking this question? You do know that Permanency can be cast multiple times and he can cast it on other people. Also, the better question is why wouldn't he?
I see what kind of player you are by your response. It wouldn't surprise me if you weren't part of a group because of your selfish playstyle. A martial character would actually benefit more from See Invisibility than a caster, especially an archer fighter. There are also out of combat uses for See Invisibility, Tongues, and Comprehend Languages.
Everything is fair game in Pathfinder.
|
|
consistently out-damaged a monk is not particurally impresive.
I had a Augmented Celestial Dire Tiger summons(level 11) with 133 hp who consistently out-damaged the monkTrue but the damage was fairly comparable with an optimized archery fighter 26,26,26,21,16 doing 1d8+21 (5 strength +2 weapon specialization +5 weapons training + 3 enhancement + 6 deadly aim).
At level 13 things get more ridiculous when you can summon, 4.5 dire tigers around and if you are a master summoner + summoning feat you can also haste them all(rod of lesser quickening) in the same round, thats an average of 27 attacks each with a AB of 22 and an average damage of 30 so about 810 damage or 540 with 10 dr.
Then you just open fire on the summoner who isn't going to be buffed because he's directing all his energy into his summons.
|
|
consistently out-damaged a monk is not particurally impresive.
I had a Augmented Celestial Dire Tiger summons(level 11) with 133 hp who consistently out-damaged the monkTrue but the damage was fairly comparable with an optimized archery fighter 26,26,26,21,16 doing 1d8+21 (5 strength +2 weapon specialization +5 weapons training + 3 enhancement + 6 deadly aim).
At level 13 things get more ridiculous when you can summon, 4.5 dire tigers around and if you are a master summoner + summoning feat you can also haste them all(rod of lesser quickening) in the same round, thats an average of 27 attacks each with a AB of 22 and an average damage of 30 so about 810 damage or 540 with 10 dr.
What you need to take into account is space that those guys take up. They are large so you need a really open place to summon them and you have to have an enemy surrounded on all sides to do this. Not to mention a simple Protection spell prevents bodily contact and a quick burst Dispel Magic takes them all out in a single go.
"If" the enemy is setup just right then yeah they can be awesome but it doesn't always go as planned.
Then you just open fire on the summoner who isn't going to be buffed because he's directing all his energy into his summons.
Hmmmm the summoner should play less well so he doesn't get attacked by the BBEG. Or maybe the party fighter and your summon AOOs hit hard enough that you really can't get to the summoner before your dead.
I find it funny that the same people saying summons don't out-class a fighter are also the people that say the Master Summoner is over powered and not allowed at their tables.
|
Heres a suggestion, if you want to talk about summoners so bad why dont you open a thread about that subject. You could call it "Are fighters replaceable by summons". This thread WAS interesting about 3 pages ago but your efforts in making a hypothetical point have really made it suffer. Furthermore just because someone is trolling *cough*Marthkus* dosnt mean you have to feed him *cough* Shallowsoul*. Finish your feud by pm, on another thread or let it go.
Heres a suggestion, if you want to talk about summoners so bad why dont you open a thread about that subject. You could call it "Are fighters replaceable by summons". This thread WAS interesting about 3 pages ago but your efforts in making a hypothetical point have really made it suffer. Furthermore just because someone is trolling *cough*Marthkus* dosnt mean you have to feed him *cough* Shallowsoul*. Finish your feud by pm, on another thread or let it go.
This is one of the tamer discussions I've seen on these threads. The fighters combat ability directly correlates with his usefulness out-side of combat. I cite OOTS for everything a good fighter can do outside of combat. But if a wizard or summoner can bring everything the fighter has to a situation with one or two spells, then that would be a problem.
Its not trolling just because you fail to see how the conversation relates to the topic.
This is one of the tamer discussions I've seen on these threads. The fighters combat ability directly correlates with his usefulness out-side of combat. I cite OOTS for everything a good fighter can do outside of combat. But if a wizard or summoner can bring everything the fighter has to a situation with one or two spells, then that would be a problem.
Its not trolling just because you fail to see how the conversation relates to the topic.
But the wizard can't and it's not debatable. The Fighters advantage is that he can go, go, go, all day long. The wizard runs out of spells. The Ranger runs out of spells and isn't always fighting FE. The Barbarian runs out of Rage. The Fighter never slows down.
But the wizard can't and it's not debatable. The Fighters advantage is that he can go, go, go, all day long. The wizard runs out of spells. The Ranger runs out of spells and isn't always fighting FE. The Barbarian runs out of Rage. The Fighter never slows down.This is one of the tamer discussions I've seen on these threads. The fighters combat ability directly correlates with his usefulness out-side of combat. I cite OOTS for everything a good fighter can do outside of combat. But if a wizard or summoner can bring everything the fighter has to a situation with one or two spells, then that would be a problem.
Its not trolling just because you fail to see how the conversation relates to the topic.
actually it is debatable as i have learned arguing for the fighter.
Apparently the barbar never runs out of rage. And a wizard won't run out of spells. Now this is only true for a 3-4 ecounter day that a lot of DMs run. For the most part though my DMs are unlikey to plan more than 4 ecounters a night, double sucks for the fighter, but as someone pointed out to me about rogues and the easy access of skills, "Having other people suck so you can feel special is a bad game mechanic." So playing until everyone sucks is not a good mechanic for the fighter. A good team mate is aware that the rest of his party is running out of resources and won't push them just so he can feel useful.I'll give you rangers since no one has yet spent the time showing me how much better they are than the fighter.
Now fighters have an interesting and fun flavor, but that doesn't defacto mean that other classes don't do his job better and maintain a better out of combat kit.
|
|
Its not trolling just because you fail to see how the conversation relates to the topic.
Its not trolling to completely derail a thread? News to me. The only way you have participated at all in the OP's thread was when you said
out of combat class features are?I don't believe they have those... 2+int skill points is base for a humanoid. Being a fighter doesn't give you out of combat skills, but it does give you room to spend your leveling feats on something other than combat.
And thats a fine opinion, im cool with you saying that but then you and Shallowsoul have swamped this thread on how its just awesome to be a wizard instead (or not). And i hate to burst your bubble but that is not what this thread is about.
The question is * What can a Fighter do out of combat*. And the answer is... there is nothing that a fighter cannot do outside of combat that another character can do (except trapfinding and inspire others because nobody messes with the Rogues and Bards Union). He is free to spend his feat and skills wherever he wants. Obviously he cant do everything but neither can the wizard (fact:wizards have a maximum amount of spells per day by lvl and a maximum of spells known by DM).
An elven or dwarf fighter can take the feat Breadth of knowledge and immediately be able to make Knowledge check in EVERY knowledge and profession. He can take crafting and with 2 feats (wich he can easily afford) craft magical items. He can do perception and track monsters or be the party face(Intimidate or skill focus). He can climb a montain and set spikes ahead of his party and facilitate everyone's climb. He can sneak with the proper enhancements on his armore. He can sing and perform if he feels like it. He can take ANY of the skills on the list and *turn* it into a pseudo class skill with skill focus (even better he can make it a class skill with a trait). Will he be doing a lot of them well that depends. A human fighter with 10 int has 4 skills per level. A fighter that decided to go for combat expertise and trips has base 13 (why not go for 14) wich brings him to 6 skills per lvl(5 if hes not human). Is that a lot? no but its probably higher then any Barbarian or Cavalier that dont have a lot of feat and probaly wont go for combat expertise and decided to dump Int.
CAN the fighter cast spells to buff his allies or change his surrounding? Yes, with the right scroll or wand and UMD. He can but its not optimal but theres another but, the questions is "What can the fighter do", not "Can the fighter beat all the other classes in their repective fields".
There are no limits except those you set yourself. Note that ANY of those options are available to ANY other character, but for the fighter to waste a few feats in skills takes a much smaller toll on his built then any other class.
You are turning this thread into yet another Fighter's suck thread. You are De facto trolling.
@Cymric
You ignored my first post on this thread.
We have established that a fighter can in fact get some out of combat use with significant investment on his part. This does not mean that other classes can do that while being better at combat. Which leads to what you call derailment.
If other classes can get better in combat skill than a fighter while being naturally better at out of combat roles than a fighter, then whole class becomes pointless.
The debate has moved on to the soundness of that statement. First we examine summons and see if they replace the fighter, then there is paladins, barbars, and rangers to compare. All of whom are naturally better than the fighter out of combat.
We are examining what makes the fighter special to justify his out of combat role. People are bringing good arguments to this debate. There is no need to repeat what a fighter can do since that uas already been said. Now it is about how he compares to others.
Yeah, the fighter's ability to go all day long is not nearly as big of a benefit as it seems, because he's still in a party full of people with limited-use abilities.
Sure, the fighter could keep going after the rest of the party has worn down their abilities, but 99% of the time the party is gonna start looking for a way to rest and recover once everyone but the fighter is running low on resources. For all his ability to theoretically keep going, the fighter is not going to enjoy going into an encounter with no buffs, debuffs, battlefield control, healing, or condition removal, and no prospect for help if things go bad.
It's a pretty ridiculous argument that a fighter is "balanced" because he never runs out of resources, when most every other class does. A party is only as strong as the weakest member, and when the casters are depleted, the party is weak. The fighter cannot make up for their shortcomings. It does help a little if the party is conservative with their resources for an extended dungeon crawl, but it has been an age since I last participated in one of those campaigns.
This is why I hardly ever play fighters, preferring paladins as my go-to martial class. You are awesome about as long as the casters with your lay on hands and smites, and when you are dry, it is time to camp.
|
|
@Marthkus I went back and read your original post and have to admit that it is indeed a very good post. That dosnt change the fact *IMO* that the thread has been derailed.
I just feel that its a shame the thread went into the way it did, it has no purpose anymore, its a hate-fest on the Fighter. Fighter is a perfectly valid class and a lot more interesting to build then the others because of its versatility and its particular challenges.
I personnally never feel over-shadowed by other classes when i make Fighters. The barbarian hulks out and deals massive amount of damages, and hes down after 3 rounds because he had no armor on. The ranger is lucky and gets to fight his favored ennemy, he deals massive amount of damages, and hes down after 3 rounds because he had no armor on (unless hes an Archer). Cavalier and Paladins both have the same staying power the fighter has (or even better) but they dont deal massive damages(with the exception of a few paladins built).
There are accusations of the Fighter being a one trick pony, to that I say you've probably never seen a good fighter built. The fighter is not irrelevant because hes versatile. He dosnt have to be good at only one thing. He is not easily countered or ignored and is a threat to the BBEG even at high lvl.
Its true that he does not scale the way full casters do but at lvl 20 if I had to place bets between a fighter and a wizard I wouldnt necessarily put my money on the wizard (i probably would). Whereas Fighter VS Wizard at lvl 1, Hands down money on the Fighter.
Here's the kicker with Time Stop. You don't know how many rounds you actually have. Now you can say that you have a minimum of 2 so let's go there.
Okay you have two free rounds let's see what happens.
You begin casting Summon Monster: 1 round gone.
Monster Arrives and you begin to cast it again: 2nd round gone.
Time Stop is over and so is your turn.
Next player or enemy goes and the summon monsters have yet to go.
But why would you try to do multiple summons? I already agreed summons are lackluster at high levels for combat.
What a smart Wizard would do is cast something that affects an area and lasts multiple rounds, like Black Tentacles, one of the Pit spells, Wall of X, etc. instead of or in addition to a singular summoned monster.
Actually Circle of Death might be pretty cool if you're fighting a buncha mooks.
I can actually eliminate the need for a Wizard with Use Magic Device, Scrolls, and some wands and nobody says anything about it but you have to spend a lot of money, and GM fiat, to get Celestial Breast Plate or Full Plate in order to get what the fighter gets for free and people are all over that.
Okay, no. Why is it everything you say something reasonable and plausible you come up with something like this?
Wands, scrolls, and the like will still never beat a straight caster at casting (especially when they can just as easily buy them too, and need no UMD for a lot of them). And to even afford a significant number of them you'd have to sacrifice a hell of a lot of in-combat effectiveness not buying your necessary items.
You'd be both a mediocre caster AND a mediocre martial character. And yes, I HAVE seen the builds people try to prove this point with. That's what I get this little spiel from.
Spells.
The question is * What can a Fighter do out of combat*. And the answer is... there is nothing that a fighter cannot do outside of combat that another character can do (except trapfinding and inspire others because nobody messes with the Rogues and Bards Union).
Inb4 "With unlimited wealth and a ton of investment in UMD he totally can be almost as good as a s@**tily specced half-caster, so there".
Now UMD can give a fighter access to wands. 50% success at lvl 5, 75% at 8, 100% success at 10.
Yeah it requires both a feat and trait (and focused study human if you want), but you get cheap(750g) access to 1st level spells like disguise, feather fall, silent image, and cure light wounds.
For a bit more money(4500g) you get invisibility, silence, alter self and other second level spells.
Now the big money comes at lvl 3 and lvl 4 spells, but for 11,250g you get access to either haste, fly, major image or another 3rd level spell.
Now 4th level spells cost way too much, but are still the cheapest way to get access to them (27,000g). That's a lot of money, but you can grab greater-invisibility, dimension door, reincarnate, druid flame strike(maybe?) and Paladin 4th lvl spells too.
So you can spend money to get the class feature Rangers and Paladins get, just like they can spend money to armor training.
I wouldn't spend much money on things like this but it is a nice option. Especially good when considering random loot drops(in normal non-PFS games)
UMD is a nice skill to have. No it doesn't replace spells, but our spell casting friends (Paladins, and Rangers) won't be getting UMD and the Barbar could use UMD in combat even if he tried.
Throw in a nice perception skill and the Fighter can do stuff out of combat for the small price of 2 traits, the human bonus feat, and 2 skill points per level. Since your human grab survival too. If your not human it'll cost you 2 traits, 2 feats and 2 skill points per level.
Not a bad out of combat kit for the cost. Now comes the problem with comparison to everyone else. They get out of combat for 'free' but really skill point and traits are a wash (you have to spend skills anyways and traits are not all that powerful). So the things other people get over the fighter to stay relevant out-of-combat is 2 feats or the human bonus feat.
Now the fighter would be doing pretty good, if he was hands down better than everyone else at his combat role.
The fighter is doing ok if the above statement is debatable.
The fighter is in a bad spot if other classes fill his combat role hands-down better than he can.
Well for 5,000 gp I can pay a Spellcaster to cast a Permanent See Invisibility on me if I wanted to.
You never have to wear pants again!
You lost me at out of combat.
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
The Mwangi expanse is more deepest darkest Africa, which merges into Egyptian culture if you head north and east, and Moroccan if you head north and west, just like our world.
I've lost the thread of this Thread.
What do Fighters do outside of combat? The same things as everyone else. What more needs be said?
The Mwangi expanse is more deepest darkest Africa, which merges into Egyptian culture if you head north and east, and Moroccan if you head north and west, just like our world.
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
Yep just like our world plus DINOSAURS. That is all.
Hmm, I see fighters get handle animal. So you could spend some coin, buy and then train a number of attack dogs, and then sit back laughing when they eat low CR encounters. Muahahahaha.
Just training my killer hounds guys, don't worry.
I've lost the thread of this Thread.
What do Fighters do outside of combat? The same things as everyone else. What more needs be said?
Quiet a bit apparently. This thread is kind of lengthy.
Mostly that it can take up resources or gold that other classes don't spend, and that 2+ skill points don't go too far. That's my opinion anyway.
Yep just like our world plus DINOSAURS. That is all.The Mwangi expanse is more deepest darkest Africa, which merges into Egyptian culture if you head north and east, and Moroccan if you head north and west, just like our world.
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
Don't be like that. C'mon, you know they copy paste real world geography and cultures heavily (with some changes of course). The Arabs are always south and east of what could be considered Europe, Asians are in the East or so far West, and so on.
Just like a wizard it would behoove a character with use magic device to have a few scrolls available as a contingency. It dosnt cost any xp to the wizard now to write a few scrolls of fly, dimension door (or any other spell really) for the fighter. He dosnt have to sink his WBL into it for it to be worth it.
Why must every argument be drawn into extremes? Thats ridiculous. Furthermore, in actual campaing, when was the last time your character actually had exactly the gear you planned on him to have? Wizards almost never have all the spells they crave for (not that theyd be able to memorize half of them) And fighters never have their dream gear either. Its ridiculous to actually bring WBL becauses theres a big difference between optimal built and real play.
Of course the fighter isnt a caster and cant be one. You want to play a caster? Take a casting class! A skill is a poor crutch to that. But can he cast the occasional spell using UMD? Yes he can, and if done smartly he can use it to gain incredible advantage in fight. Gaining access to spells with a personal range is extremely useful. The fighter who has flaming shield on is the bane of many an ennemy. Transportation soells too, the fighter who teleports right next to the evil caster and hassles him with his step up and diruptive strike is certainly ruining that guys day and he just did that while the wizard could get his dimensional amnchor out instead of losing the opportunity because he had to buff the fighter. Its a team game, play as a team. Contrary to popular belief there is NO class out there who can fulfill the role of an entire party by himself
I remember one game, the rogue with all that use magic device was a total beast for using any and every magic item they could get a hold of. Quite a lot of potential there, although another character looked down upon it.
The guy buffed himself and held waves of undead trying to flood out of a ziggurat.
I've lost the thread of this Thread.
What do Fighters do outside of combat? The same things as everyone else. What more needs be said?
Quiet a bit apparently. This thread is kind of lengthy.
Mostly that it can take up resources or gold that other classes don't spend, and that 2+ skill points don't go too far. That's my opinion anyway.
I was going to cite how winged boots cost more than the wand, but then I checked and the 4750g you save isn't worth it unless you want the slot they take up...
Lets see Hat of Disguise is 1050g more expensive than the wand and takes up a slot.
Ring of Invisibility is 15,500g more expensive than the wand.
So if we total that up the fighter saves 21300g and 3 magic gear slots to gain access to spells that mimic climb, acrobatics, disguise, and stealth. Compared to the Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian who would have to get magical gear to do any of those things and probable won't do to the cost (except winged boots).
The barbarian can't heal and I don't see him investing into UMD which he can't use while raging. So the Fighter saves money using the wand instead of potions (when needed, clerics do exist).
Ranger won't get access to the Paladins spell list and vice versa, the fighter can get access to some of their spells with a little investment.
So apparently all Ranger, Barbars and Paladins spend 25,000g to get celestial plate armor to make the fighter feel silly for having armor training. On the other hand the fighter can grab +5 armor for the same cost. Or he can get +3 armor and a wand of fly and save 4750g in the process.
The fighter could be spending resources other classes don't have to or he could be cutting cost where other classes can't. It depends on what factors you are looking at.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't be like that. C'mon, you know they copy paste real world geography and cultures heavily (with some changes of course). The Arabs are always south and east of what could be considered Europe, Asians are in the East or so far West, and so on.Yep just like our world plus DINOSAURS. That is all.The Mwangi expanse is more deepest darkest Africa, which merges into Egyptian culture if you head north and east, and Moroccan if you head north and west, just like our world.
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
I was meaning that you were right except that Mwangi is better because of dinosaurs.