|
Ok, after combing through the archives and coming up with a lot of confusion, I thought I'd just ask.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
What, in plain English for a person who's not full awake and has been pounding her head against the desk for a while trying to figure this out, does this MEAN?
My interpretation and complications are as follows:
1) A single attack using a standard attack can, as often as possible just because *I say so* doubles the damage output.
Example: 7th level human fighter, STR of 20 (+5 mod) swings a greatsword which he has weapon focus for and hits. This is his first iterative attack at full bonus (7+5+1). He decides to go Vital Strike, generating 4d6+5 damage.
Now let's say he crits and confirms: That generates 6d6+5 damage, not 8d6+5 or 8d6+anything else as it doesn't multiply strength mod or vital strike damage.
2) Can the same fighter uses Vital Strike on second iterative?
3) Can the same fighter use Vital strike on the next round's first iterative?
4) If the fighter in question does NOT use Vital strike on his first iterative, can he instead use it on his second AT FULL BAB?
These are the big questions I have right now, and I'm sorry if this has been answered elsethread.
Cheers!
M
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, after combing through the archives and coming up with a lot of confusion, I thought I'd just ask.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
What, in plain English for a person who's not full awake and has been pounding her head against the desk for a while trying to figure this out, does this MEAN?
My interpretation and complications are as follows:
1) A single attack using a standard attack can, as often as possible just because *I say so* doubles the damage output.
Example: 7th level human fighter, STR of 20 (+5 mod) swings a greatsword which he has weapon focus for and hits. This is his first iterative attack at full bonus (7+5+1). He decides to go Vital Strike, generating 4d6+5 damage.
Now let's say he crits and confirms: That generates 6d6+5 damage, not 8d6+5 or 8d6+anything else as it doesn't multiply strength mod or vital strike damage.
2) Can the same fighter uses Vital Strike on second iterative?
3) Can the same fighter use Vital strike on the next round's first iterative?
4) If the fighter in question does NOT use Vital strike on his first iterative, can he instead use it on his second AT FULL BAB?
These are the big questions I have right now, and I'm sorry if this has been answered elsethread.
Cheers!
M
Vital Strike is a standard action. It could definately be clearer, but it is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full attack with iterative attacks in any way.
|
|
As for your critical question, it would go like this.
6d6 (2d6+2d6+2d6)+ [7(5*1.5)+any other flat numeric bonuses, like the +1 from a magic weapon for example)*2]
Example, if the sword is +1, it would be
6d6+16
Where's the +16 coming from? My understanding is that strength mods are never multiplied when factoring criticals.
Where's the +16 coming from? My understanding is that strength mods are never multiplied when factoring criticals.As for your critical question, it would go like this.
6d6 (2d6+2d6+2d6)+ [7(5*1.5)+any other flat numeric bonuses, like the +1 from a magic weapon for example)*2]
Example, if the sword is +1, it would be
6d6+16
Ohh, but they are. Since 3.0.
|
|
Thank you, that is the perfect answer that I needed!Vital Strike is a standard action. It could definately be clearer, but it is a standard action.
Per the SRD "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
So you roll your damage twice and add your strength bonus as well as all other additional damage (power attack) twice. The exception is Precision dmg and damage on special quality weapons.
|
|
Per the SRD "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
So you roll your damage twice and add your strength bonus as well as all other additional damage (power attack) twice. The exception is Precision dmg and damage on special quality weapons.
...
...
WHOA! My PC's with absurd strength mods will never be the same...
|
|
It actually won't come up THAT often, but when it does come up it'll make a pretty significant boost :)
You might be surprised how often my STR 22 Barbarian/Paragon/Fighter crits with his keen greatsword. The dice just LOVE him. I think my current record is 3 crits in a row, chain cleaving. And that was without the multiplied STR mod.
This is, of course, assuming that my Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") doesn't just house rule back to the days before this was the case. Which I'm also completely fine with.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In second edition crits didn't add bonus damage over the dices cause they were nasty in their own way, localization, severity and such. Today there is no such things (Unless u use the critical Deck which is AWESOME by the way) so strength comes in pretty handy, as does other bonuses.
|
|
It's fully within her rights of course, but I can't say it's a houserule that I agree with.
By higher levels weapon damage makes up a very small portion of your damage. What's the point of critting if it's maybe a 15% increase in damage? Sure it increases your damage per round, but it's not special anymore. (In much the same way a rogue over level 7 is usually pretty neutral on crits. "I got a crit? Cool. My turns over." Where as the fighter is typically more of a "HOLY SMOKES I GOT A CRIT TAKE THAT! BOOOOOYAAAH!!!" (though admittedly that result happens more often with an axe fighter than a sword fighter, but still you get my point.)
*noddles*
Well, I'm very much in the "don't rock the boat" and/or "If it ain't broke don't fix it" schools of gaming. Just coming to my GM and going "Look, see, it says this in the book so neener neener!" is a good way to earn some animosity. In all honesty, while it's a minor change, it's still something that will take some getting used to for both parties involved.
|
|
In second edition crits didn't add bonus damage over the dices cause they were nasty in their own way, localization, severity and such. Today there is no such things (Unless u use the critical Deck which is AWESOME by the way) so strength comes in pretty handy, as does other bonuses.
Crit deck love for the win!!!
|
Vital Strike is a standard action. It could definately be clearer, but it is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full attack with iterative...
I searched the forums and did not see a post by James, Jason, etc confirming this. I also checked the errata. The reason I ask is that a couple of my players are arguing that since the wording in the core rulebook indicates that Vital Strike is listed as an "attack Action" and not a "standard action", that it would apply to all attacks during a full round attack action. I have no problem resolving this as a standard action in a home game, but it becomes more problematic in organized play.
|
|
Vital Strike is a standard action. It could definately be clearer, but it is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full attack with iterative...I searched the forums and did not see a post by James, Jason, etc confirming this. I also checked the errata. The reason I ask is that a couple of my players are arguing that since the wording in the core rulebook indicates that Vital Strike is listed as an "attack Action" and not a "standard action", that it would apply to all attacks during a full round attack action. I have no problem resolving this as a standard action in a home game, but it becomes more problematic in organized play.
That confused me at first, but upon review I noticed it also states that "When you use the attack action, you can make ONE attack..." (read: SINGLE attack), therefore indicating a standard action and not part of a multiple-attack full-round action.
So, no you cannot have multiple Vital Strikes in a round (unless you use the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium and are lucky enough to have a Belt of Battle), nor can you have one Vital Strike and then the rest of your "normal" attacks in a multiple-attack full-round action.
Basically, Vital Strike, and its corresponding feat tree, is PFRPG's version of 3.5's Manyshot feat with versatility to include melee weapons as well. It makes a lot of sense considering the way they changed Manyshot itself; if you look at the recommended feats for NPC Archers the Vital Strike feats are listed there along with Rapid Shot, Manyshot, etc.
|
Twilight knight, here's what you need to show your players.
First, page 136 Vital strike
"When you use the attack action"
Then go to combat
Page 183 table 8-2
Actions in combat
Standard Action
Attack
And then point out that a full round attack action is listed as a full attack action.
If vital strike were meant to be used with any attack, and not just your standard single hit attack action, it would be worded differently.
Also, you can show them the d20 pathfinder faq which includes specifics on what action you use from vital strike.
|
Twilight knight, here's what you need to show your players.
First, page 136 Vital strike
"When you use the attack action"
Then go to combat
Page 183 table 8-2
Actions in combat
Standard Action
Attack
And then point out that a full round attack action is listed as a full attack action.
If vital strike were meant to be used with any attack, and not just your standard single hit attack action, it would be worded differently.
Also, you can show them the d20 pathfinder faq which includes specifics on what action you use from vital strike.
...But it CAN combine with Spring Attack. Just to be clear :P
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage....
what i get from this is that if you have multiple attacks it only applies to one of your attacks, not that you only get one attack with double weapon damage roll+ 1x str modifier so it would be like this at level 6
Using iterative attacks is not an attack action though. That's a full-attack action.
Basically, Vital Strike is not a separate standard action. It's an attack condition that can only trigger when taking an attack action. Since attack actions and full attack actions are separate actions, you can't use vital strike as part of a full attack. But you can use it in any situation where you are making a singular attack.
At least that's how I read it.
One thing I didn't see was covered (though I might have overlooked it) is that vital strike doesn't double your damage output. It just gives you another damage die (or damage dice, if the weapon in question has several). Nothing else will be added. Crits are different that way.
So if you normally do 2d6+8, you'll now do 4d6+8. A crit (with a x2 crit weapon) would be 4d6+16, and a crit with vital strike is 6d6+16.
...But it CAN combine with Spring Attack. Just to be clear :P
Although this post is quite old and i don't know when the errata happened but now you can't use vital strike on spring attack because spring attack was clarified in errata that it is a full round action.
Also it doesn't work with cleave or pinpoint targeting.
Man, that's some nerf in spring attack right, but i guess it could be horribly abused if you could move a part of your movement,do a standard action and then move the remainder of your movement.
Man, hope this isn't true.
Last I heard, this was it:
Seems perfectly reasonable as it's a significant feat investment just to get Spring Attack and Vital Strike.
Man, that's some nerf in spring attack right, but i guess it could be horribly abused if you could move a part of your movement,do a standard action and then move the remainder of your movement.Man, hope this isn't true.
Last I heard, this was it:
Seems perfectly reasonable as it's a significant feat investment just to get Spring Attack and Vital Strike.
That post is over a year old and iirc the latest errata to the core was made after that.
That post is over a year old and iirc the latest errata to the core was made after that.
Strange..and poor.. choice on Paizo's part IMO.
Strange..and poor.. choice on Paizo's part IMO.That post is over a year old and iirc the latest errata to the core was made after that.
The spring attack really needed clarification, and if instead of saying what they actually did, they said that when you use spring attack you get a standart action to attack then it would open a huge can of worms. I think that the problem lies with desing of vital strike and not spring attack.
|
I think that the problem lies with desing of vital strike and not spring attack.
When the FAQ has a paragraph on just Vital Strike question, I think your probably correct.
For convenience here it is:
Vital Strike (8/20/10)
Q: Spring Attack has a rather mushy description, but I am pretty sure you can combine it at least with a Vital Strike. I'd also like to have some clarification if you can also combine it with Cleave and Deadly Strike.
A: (Errata 8/20/10) The spring attack feat has been changed in the 8/20/2010 Errata to be a Full-Round action. This prevents one from using Spring Attack and vital strike together.
((Removed all of old rulings))
Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.
Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]
Q: Can you charge and use Vital Strike?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Charge is a special full-round action (excluding partial charge). You cannot currently combine a charge and vital strike. [Source]
Q: How does Vital Strike effect weapon-like spells (ie Chill Touch, Inflict Light Wounds)?
A: (James Jacobs 11/6/09) Vital Strike wasn't ever intended to give spellcasters a way to double their damage dice, and you can expect it to be reworded in an upcoming FAQ sooner or later to enforce this role. [Source]
A: (James Jacobs 11/5/09) Vital Strike does not allow you to sneak out extra damage with spells unless that spell works like a weapon. You could vital strike with a flame blade. Not with a scorching ray. [Source]
Q: If I critically hit with a Greataxe(1d12+6) while using Vital Strike what damage do I roll?
A: 4d12+18. Which is (1d12+6)x3 plus 1d12 for vital strike. [Source]
Q: Can you use Vital Strike with a bow or thrown weapon?
A: Nothing in the feat suggests you can not so yes you can. [Source]
Q: Can you combine Cleave and Vital Strike?
A: Both of these feats now require a standard action to use and as you only get one per round you can not combine the two feats. [Source]
Q: Deadly Stroke is defined as "you deal double the normal damage" with an explicit exception regarding critical hits "The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit. ". Does that mean that the additional dice from Vital Strike are also doubled?
A: You can not combine Deadly Stroke and Vital Strike as they both are worded to use a Standard Action. As they both are standard actions and you only have one standard action a round it does not work. [Source]
Q: So at 6th level and using a longsword +2 and 16 Str and power attacking (-2 to hit, +4 damage) using the Vital Strike feat would it be 2d8, +2 for the sword bonus, +4 for PA, and +3 for Str or 2d8 +4 for the sword bonus, +8 for PA and +3 for Str? And then what would the above damage be if a critical hit was rolled?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) The way to think about it is this. . roll the damage dice only twice. Everything else is as per normal. If you crit, add the crit damage normally and then roll the base dice for the weapon again and add them all together. So, in your example, the character would roll 1d8+5 attacking normally, 1d8+9 if using Power Attack, and 2d8+9 if using Power Attack and Vital Strike. On a critical hit you would roll 3d8+10 if attacking normally, 3d8+18 if using Power Attack. [Source]
Q: The text of this feat stipulates that the Vital Strike does not multiply Strength damage, weapon ability damage, or precision damage. Are other damage bonuses (those not mentioned, such as those from Weapon Specialization, enhancement bonuses, or the Bard's inspire courage ability) are, in fact, multiplied on a hit? I'm not sure if that's what is intended, though--the wording sounds like it could just be saying, "No damage bonuses, such as X, Y, and Z, are multiplied on a hit. "
A: (Jason Bulmahn) The way to think about it is this: roll the damage dice only twice. [Source]
The spring attack really needed clarification, and if instead of saying what they actually did, they said that when you use spring attack you get a standart action to attack then it would open a huge can of worms. I think that the problem lies with desing of vital strike and not spring attack.
I dunno, Spring Attack didn't confuse me ever - it's a pain to get with its 3 feat investment, but I was really happy that Paizo was supporting the mobile warrior with feats like the new Cleave and Vital Strike.
I'd love to end the tyranny of the full attack where all you do is stand around shifting 5' here or there. Spring Attacking Vital Strike allows for the same mechanical benefit as attacking 2x but with great mobility dancing around the battlefield.
Oh well, maybe Ultimate Combat will have some more thoughts on the matter.
|
|
So, what use is vital strike? If a fighter has this, all the way up to greater vital strike?
By this point, the fighter already has like 4 attacks. What if he gets +20 dmg on each hit with his full round action? It would seem that taking the full round action is still more damage than using one greater vital strike action, no?
So when he has to move to the next enemy, he can still hit hard. It's meant to be for those situations where the fighter can't full attack.
Or when he polymorphs into a Stegosaurus to roll a ridiculous number of dice for damage.
Or when he polymorphs into a Stegosaurus to roll a ridiculous number of dice for damage.
Huh? Wasn't this for enlarged T-Rexaurs under the effects of Strongjaw?
Or when he polymorphs into a Stegosaurus to roll a ridiculous number of dice for damage.Huh? Wasn't this for enlarged T-Rexaurs under the effects of Strongjaw?
Well, this is a fighter we're talking about. I didn't want it to get too complicated. :p
It could be a trap if your GM has sit-down-and-brawl battles all the time, but if he has more dynamic encounters, it's not so bad.
Be an eldritch knight, cast monstrous physique 3 to huge, enlarge yourself, use a wand of lead blades, you have now a colossal greatsword.
Roll 32d6, you said shadowrun ?
Be an eldritch knight, cast monstrous physique 3 to huge, enlarge yourself, use a wand of lead blades, you have now a colossal greatsword.
Roll 32d6, you said shadowrun ?
Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but effects that increase your size doesn't stack.
Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but effects that increase your size doesn't stack.
Indeed, good thing that the only size increasing effect is enlarge person.
monstrous physique 3 => polymorph (huge)enlarge person => size increasing (gargantuan)
lead blades => weapon enchanting (colossal)
Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but effects that increase your size doesn't stack.Indeed, good thing that the only size increasing effect is enlarge person.
monstrous physique 3 => polymorph (huge)
enlarge person => size increasing (gargantuan)
lead blades => weapon enchanting (colossal)
So what do you call the polymorph spell that makes you huge?
Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but effects that increase your size doesn't stack.Indeed, good thing that the only size increasing effect is enlarge person.
monstrous physique 3 => polymorph (huge)
enlarge person => size increasing (gargantuan)
lead blades => weapon enchanting (colossal)
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Thanks, wasn't aware of this one, I guess 24 dices are enough then.
Vital Strike would be a potent feat if it was compatible with Spring Attack and Shot on the Run. Sadly it's not. :(
If you want to get whack-them-with-a-CRB-pedantic, Lead Blades doesn't work on natural weapons because you aren't carrying them.
You probably want Strong Jaw.
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.Thanks, wasn't aware of this one, I guess 24 dices are enough then.
Oh, a Stegosaurus wild shape druid with the Strong Jaw spell should still be able to hit those 32d6. Assuming he's multiclassed enough to get that +16 BaB.
I never intended to use lead blades on natural weapons, polymorphing into a montrous humanoid doesn't meld gear into the form, hence I keep my weapon and its size adapts to the new form's size.
Strong jaw gives a greater size increase but would be much more expensive as a wand.
Oh, a Stegosaurus wild shape druid with the Strong Jaw spell should still be able to hit those 32d6. Assuming he's multiclassed enough to get that +16 BaB.
An eldritch knight can do it as well now that I think of it, summon something big (a T-rex ?), strong jaw/lead blades(antropomorphic animal + spare gargantuan weapon), animal growth, magic jar into it, go on a rampage.
It would be a colossal leaded greatsword dealing 12d6, 48d6 with greater vital strike.
Spending a few feats to give +7 damage when I can't get a full attack doesn't seem like a good deal
Assuming each attack connects, sure. The point of the vital strike tree is to give everything on one strike, it is surely not the best way to min-max damage, but it is fun and can be somewhat potent.
Plus, it is also a way to neglect damage reduction. I agree that by lvl16 that point is moot but at lvl6-7 when you get the first feat it can matter.