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I intend to take Gaseous Form when my sorcerer reaches 6th level. However, I just now noticed that subjects of the spell are NOT considered incorporeal. That seams to allow for several weird scenarios, like a barbarian being able to grapple my sorcerer as she tries to float away.
Is there something I am missing?
The barbarian inhales. Hard.
Oh my god, I choked on my milk when I read that.
The description of the spell says the subject and all its gear become "insubstantial, misty, and translucent." I'm not sure how something without substance can be grappled, excepting A Man In Black's explanation. (Which, by the way, is something we've joked about doing around my game table.)
I am eventually going to try to argue the point, just because it irks my suspension of belief so much, but not tonight.
I tend to like Man In Black's first answer for this one. :D
Along the same lines of "how do you grapple an Air Elemental?"
On some levels the looser rules mean that the DM could choose whatever fit the story and mood, which was great for the hardcore role-players and storyteller-type DMs. But it also made abuse of power difficult, slowed down the gameplay something awful, and could lead to disputes.
I'm not sure I understand this point. If I read what you say correctly, actually Role playing in a Roleplaying game is bad, but blatent abuse of power is good. Is that correct???
To my knowledge, an air elemental can't go through small cracks like a gaseous sorcerer can. How is it that I can slip through the smallest of cracks, but not through the big gaping gaps through a barbarian's arms/fingers?
Jokes aside, gaseous form doesn't make you insubstantial, it just makes you amorphous and lighter than air.
I posted a direct quotation from the spell description. The word used is indeed "insubstantial."
Yeah, true. As per rules an air elemental could not fly through a grate.
I would actually say you can't be grappled. Because if you look at the description for being ethereal it's almost the same. Only difference is gaseous form says you can just go through tiny cracks, while ethereal states you can go through creatures.
Perhaps they can grapple you all they want, but then on your turn you just slip through the cracks and get away.
Ethereal
An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed.
Gaseous Form
The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent.
Note they both have the descriptor of insubstantial.
Perhaps they can grapple you all they want, but then on your turn you just slip through the cracks and get away.
I think I like this interpretation.
Anyone know the answer to this one yet?
I think Gaseous Form definitely SHOULDN`T be classed as `incorporeal`.
Incorporeal allows moving THRU matter, as well as making ´incorporeal touch attacks` bypassing Armor.
Gaseous Form isn`t meant to do either, a solid barrier DOES stop it, for example.
Likewise, Air Elementals don`t make Incorporeal Touch Attacks, they have to deal with AC as normal.
Gaseous Form`s descriptive text seems compatable with an immunity to movement restrictions, including Grapple, which are not 100% effective over an area (e.g. Wall of Force and Wind Wall), given it`s implicit ability to change shape (´it can pass thru cracks´). Gelatinous Cubes shouldn`t have a problem Engulfing a Gaseous Form`d creature (or Air Elemental).
As per rules an air elemental could not fly through a grate.
Except it does say they´re made of air.
Do the rules say air or water can pass thru a grate, or the crack under a door?Do the rules describe the difference in light vs. sound propagation, or any number of features we expect in ´standard physical reality´? No. Yet we manage to play the game.
There`s plenty enough other REAL issues with the rules that this type of debate seems silly. One`s that AREN`T solvable by common sense, because whatever the ´RAI´ are is completely arbitrary one way or the other... Such as the DC and other factors of escaping from an Avalance not being mentioned AT ALL, as compared to Cave-Ins which otherwise work similarly. But 3.5 also didn`t have Avalanche escape DCs, so that made it OK for PRPG to not have them either. Apparently. I guess it makes a threat of Avalanche even MORE dramatic, because nobody knows what will happen if anybody is buried! And Cave-Ins are just more... familiar, even if they can be unpleasant.
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Jokes aside, gaseous form doesn't make you insubstantial, it just makes you amorphous and lighter than air.
Actually, "insubstantial" is exactly what the spell description says.
In my game, you can't grapple someone in gaseous form, although you can contain or restrict them in other ways (hold person, cube of force, etc.). I suppose someone could go through all the mechanics of establishing a grapple hold on you, but it wouldn't confer any of the penalties that grappling usually gives, and getting out of the grapple would be a free action that does not provoke or require a CMB check.
The reason gaseous form isn't considered incorporeal is because incorporeal literally means "without a body," not simply "not solid." Someone or something in gaseous form still has mass, every atom of its body is still there, it's just not all glued together like normal. You can't move through a solid object, but you can move through a crack as thin as a dime. Thus you would be nigh impossible to physically hold onto.
So if a gaseous formed Sorcerer can be grappled, can they be attacked with weapons? This spell really confuses me.
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Has there been any word off an official ruling on this?
The barbarian inhales. Hard.
Why yes, yes she does.
Another good question is when you have an air elemental go into vortex form. They strangely retain their ability to be attacked and grappled at the same time.
Pathfinder
Gaseous Form
School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, M/DF (a bit of gauze and a wisp of smoke)
Range touch
Target willing corporeal creature touched
Duration 2 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits. It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.
A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.
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I do not think grapple would work.
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The air elemental thing needs a tread of its own.
Incorporeal - able to pass through small cracks...
Other than being engulfed by an ooze, I don't see how exactly you'd grasp a gaseous creature (keith richards barbarian not counting).
It's a no no in my game.
A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.
The ability to fit through small cracks does not necessarily mean you are immune to grapples. (You're gaseous, not incorporeal.) I fear that if a barbarian gets a hold of your smokey ankle, you're not going anywhere.
I hope you're right, in the end, I'm just not entirely convinced that you are.
Personally I'd add the following information to the Gaseous Form spell and to creatures where it seemed logical (such as air elementals or other creatures described as being made of smoke or some other "insubstantial" effects)
"Gaseous form grants the target the Insubstantial condition."
"Insubstantial Condition: The creature effectively does not have a solid form. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the creature automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver or Escape Artist checks to escape a grapple or a pin. Further, the creature can move through very small openings and cracks but can not move through solid objects."
Done. Does this perhaps make some creatures a tad more powerful? Sure, but I don't care. It makes sense to me :)
A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.
The ability to fit through small cracks does not necessarily mean you are immune to grapples. (You're gaseous, not incorporeal.) I fear that if a barbarian gets a hold of your smokey ankle, you're not going anywhere.
I hope you're right, in the end, I'm just not entirely convinced that you are.
You didn't take my whole argument into consideration. I say it can not be done because of two factors: incorporeal AND able to pass cracks.
1) it passes through craks, meaning it's completly maleable.
2) it's incorporeal, meaning it has no friction... you can't heally hold gas, so if it's maleable it'll slip through ANY opening.
It's like trying to grappe a pool of water... unless you seal it (ergo the engulf from ooze), you can't hold it.
But well, in the end it's whatever works in you game.
EDIT: as for not being incorporeal, here's a direct quote:
School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
...The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and
translucent.
NO SUBSTANCE.
In my game, even the grapplers think it silly to pin gaseous form (or fart form, in a less respectful nomenclature), so it has never been an issue.
You didn't take my whole argument into consideration. I say it can not be done because of two factors: incorporeal AND able to pass cracks.
1) it passes through craks, meaning it's completly maleable.
2) it's incorporeal, meaning it has no friction... you can't heally hold gas, so if it's maleable it'll slip through ANY opening.It's like trying to grappe a pool of water... unless you seal it (ergo the engulf from ooze), you can't hold it.
But well, in the end it's whatever works in you game.
EDIT: as for not being incorporeal, here's a direct quote:
School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
...The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and
translucent.NO SUBSTANCE.
In my game, even the grapplers think it silly to pin gaseous form (or fart form, in a less respectful nomenclature), so it has never been an issue.
We clearly have a difference in interpretations then. I don't believe that being "insubstantial, misty, and translucent" is the same thing as...
Incorporeal: Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects, as well as all force effects.
...or...
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
...or...
Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
...Gaseous Form clearly does not bestow any of the above effects, only those listed in its spell description. If a spell gave all of these effects, it would easily be 8th or 9th level (or else totally broken).
Since incorporeal is a specific condition, I'd still hold my point of view with insubstantial, as per spell description.
I really don't see how you'd grapple a puddle of water, for example... gas is even harder.
Grappling is technique that is anatomy dependant (joints, locks and friction), it just doesn't work without these conditions... (then again, me being a practicioner of brazilian jiu jitsu makes me see it in a particular way :D )
EDIT: as an example, let's see how the book treats the concept of insubstantiality:
Ethereal Plane: The Ethereal Plane is a ghostly realm
that exists as a buffer between the Material Plane and the
Shadow Plane, overlapping each. A traveler in the Ethereal
plane experiences the real world as if the world were an
insubstantial ghost, and can move through solid objects
without being seen in the real world. p 440
or the spell ethereal: As an insubstantial creature, you can move through solid
objects, including living creatures.
This spell is odd, because it's a small form of insubstantiality maybe. You can argue both ways, not sure we'll find solid ground (pun intended) hehe
But it's a game, i get that... there are silly things like hitting stone creatures with blades (really?).
My final saying is fun>logic
But logicwise, there's no grappling gas.
Cheers and good game.
Gaseous Form is a living cloud of gas, plain and simple. If whatever method you're using can grapple a cloud, then you can grapple the gaseous form. This is not even close to being incorporeal.
Notice I did not specify the type of cloud, but it shouldn't matter. It's a gas you can see in the air. Rules for grappling Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, Argon, Xenon, or any other gas apply.
Think of the damage reduction as resistance to dispersal. Try using a sword to disperse a thick fog... doesn't work too well.
A caterpillar can move though small holes and cracks... that's not even a valid comparison. That's a size thing, not a state of matter thing. A caterpillar is a solid. Gaseous Form is a gas, not a solid, not a liquid, not a vaporized liquid, not a plasma, not a ghost.
Awesomely said.
Any method to grasp gas can hold gaseous form. I doubt a combat move/martial art cover it.
Why didn't I think of putting it this way. Cheers for you!
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A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.
A centipede is not a gas. You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms.
A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.A centipede is not a gas. You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms.
Sean,
But yet somehow you always have to here..........Sigh
A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.A centipede is not a gas. You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms.
Thanks for the input! As always, it's appreciated.
Now if I could just convince my GM of that...
Do you think he might be the cause of this complex that everyone claims I have? :P
A centipede or similarly shaped creature can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, but can also be grappled. I fear it is much the same with gaseous form.A centipede is not a gas. You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms.
That's how I've always ruled it.
It was the air elementals and fire elementals and the like that threw me, but in the end I just decided something along the lines of what A Man in Black said: that such creatures weren't really made out of air any more than a jellyfish is made out of water just because it lives in the water.
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You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules.
Pardon the necro, but...
It seems equally obvious that one can't "harm" a cloud with a sword...and yet that works. Hence "obvious" doesn't seem to be particularly helpful in divining the intentions of the designers.
I'm bringing this up because, according to the RAW, it seems possible to grapple an air elemental. Applying Sean's logic, doing so is impossible. I expect Sean would find grappling a water elemental equally impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect that quality to be explicitly expressed in the rules, especially given the exhaustive way in which other qualities are expressed? Perhaps a fluid (as in gas or liquid) sub-type, or some-such? Seems like an easy win for clarity.
In any event, I certainly don't see the point of implying people who raise the question are being deliberately obtuse.
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Air elementals are basically solid air. They have no language that suggests they can move through cracks, walls or similar language. I like to describe them as creature of pushing wind, like when you hold your hand out the window of a fast moving car. That kinda "force" is what you feel when you touch an air elemental.
Note since you can grapple an air elemental what about in whirlwind form? creates an interesting situation when you fail the second ref save and are in the whirlwind and grappling it at the same time?
sooo i can hit this with a sword and harm it so i can still cut it but cant grab it ... so it would be safe to say i could seal parts of it in different containers and when the spell wears off i will have bits and pieces of the creature ?
No. If you somehow manage to push it into a container it will all go in there. The "fog" is still one creature.