Unless otherwise specified, all thrown weapons have a range increment of 10'.
Hmm. There's an interesting point. Sometimes you want to be able to get that bomb more than 10-20' away. (Since IIRC the max increment for a thrown weapon is 50 feet.) Guess that's what the druid's animal companion or the wizard's familiar is for! ;)
Simple solution, use a sling to throw the bomb. Nothing in the rules says you can't, and it makes sense. A sling is just a way to throw a stone harder and farther.
Of course, a cruel GM might make the bombs explode in the sling on a natural 1. :)
Simple solution, use a sling to throw the bomb. Nothing in the rules says you can't, and it makes sense. A sling is just a way to throw a stone harder and farther.
Of course, a cruel GM might make the bombs explode in the sling on a natural 1. :)
I would... for that matter if you critically fail a bomb while throwing it I would likely have it fumbled to your feet. maybe just dud out... but i doubt it
Unless otherwise specified, all thrown weapons have a range increment of 10'.Ten feet?!!
So you are telling me that someone who takes the explosive bomb discovery is a moron?
What a useless class ability. You'll always hit your allies, if not yourself. Wow, let's hope they don't do it this way.
I think you've missed a few paragraphs of rules. The range increment is how far you can throw the splash weapon WITHOUT PENALTY. For every ten feet, you take a -2 on the attack. You can throw a bomb up to 50 feet, but you take a -8 to the attack. See what I'm saying?
Unless otherwise specified, all thrown weapons have a range increment of 10'.Ten feet?!!
So you are telling me that someone who takes the explosive bomb discovery is a moron?
What a useless class ability. You'll always hit your allies, if not yourself. Wow, let's hope they don't do it this way.
Yes, 10' increments - meaning that if you want to throw it between 10 and 20 feet away you incur a -2 penalty to your attack, -4 between 20 and 30 feet etc.
EDIT: Damn, ninja'ed by 26 seconds
And for touch attacks that's no big penalty.
Can you weapon focus in splash weapons/alchemical items? My Hobgoblin fighter (who dabbles in alchemy) is considering picking up a few levels of alchemist.
And for touch attacks that's no big penalty.
Can you weapon focus in splash weapons/alchemical items? My Hobgoblin fighter (who dabbles in alchemy) is considering picking up a few levels of alchemist.
You have to have proficiency with a weapon to take Weapon Focus. Splash weapons don't have a proficiency attached to them. So I'd have to say no, but that's up to DM discretion...
if the 10' increments are really an issue maybe they can make bombs not splash unless you take an discovery to make it so...
You have to have proficiency with a weapon to take Weapon Focus. Splash weapons don't have a proficiency attached to them. So I'd have to say no, but that's up to DM discretion...And for touch attacks that's no big penalty.
Can you weapon focus in splash weapons/alchemical items? My Hobgoblin fighter (who dabbles in alchemy) is considering picking up a few levels of alchemist.
You can take Weapon Focus: Touch Spell and Weapon Focus: Ranged Spell, so I don't see why you couldn't take Weapon Focus: Grenadelike Weapon.
if the 10' increments are really an issue maybe they can make bombs not splash unless you take an discovery to make it so...
Bombs are just like Alchemist's Fire or flasks of acid, so the 10' increment isn't an issue and hasn't been one since 3.0 came out...
Or sooner. I'm not sure what the rules for such were in 2e or 1e...
And if you are concerned that you won't hit at 50' you can take far shot, which halves the range increment penalties (i.e. you'll only take a -4 to hit from 40~50').
Actually if you really want to use the bombs often at range point blank shot, Precise shot, and Far shot all seem like good options.
I really wish there was a way to throw more then one bomb in a round. It would just help the ability scale so much with higher levels when you can hurl 20 bombs a day.
I really wish there was a way to throw more then one bomb in a round. It would just help the ability scale so much with higher levels when you can hurl 20 bombs a day.
Well if you take delay bomb you can start up all the bombs at the start of the day and then (conceivably) throw them just like normal alchemy items. Since you have the throw anything feat it is possible that you could throw them as 'improvised weapons' (meaning you'd have to hit the normal AC instead of the touch AC) and get their effect out of them.
Understand however both of those solutions are only quasi-legal at best (imo).
You can take Weapon Focus: Touch Spell and Weapon Focus: Ranged Spell, so I don't see why you couldn't take Weapon Focus: Grenadelike Weapon.You have to have proficiency with a weapon to take Weapon Focus. Splash weapons don't have a proficiency attached to them. So I'd have to say no, but that's up to DM discretion...And for touch attacks that's no big penalty.
Can you weapon focus in splash weapons/alchemical items? My Hobgoblin fighter (who dabbles in alchemy) is considering picking up a few levels of alchemist.
Ahhhh yes, you must have the ability to take weapon focus, if you couldn't that would simply be lame - you are a "bomb thrower" for goodness sake!
Also due to the throw anything bonus feat you gain a +1 on all splash weapons.
In truth I would probably take Weapon Focus(Splash weapons).
Seems right to me: Melee touch, Ranged Touch, Splash weapons.
Alright, 10' increments when throwing a bomb can't be right. You try and throw a hand grenade only 10' and not get hit by shrapnel. And while these may be extremes from the real world, what about quarterbacks throwing a football 30, 40, 50 yards (150 feet!) to a moving target or a pitcher zipping a baseball 60'6" to the exact spot the catcher is holding his glove.
If a bomb is built properly for weight and aerodynamics it should get a much better range increment than 10'.
Alright, 10' increments when throwing a bomb can't be right.
This site says the average soldier can throw a 14 oz. grenade about 40 meters, "shorter distances more accurately."
Average soldier = Ftr 1, Dex 10.
40 meters = 120 feet
that's 11 range increments beyond the first, so -22 penalty.
The fighter's attack bonus brings that down to a -21 penalty.
Attacking a SQUARE is AC 5.
So a Ftr1 trying to accurately hit a SPECIFIC 5 ft. square at 120 feet away has to roll a 26 to do so. Fortunately, he auto-hits on a 20. And if he misses, it goes 10 feet (the range increment) in a random direction... which is still pretty accurate!
What if he's only throwing a grenade at a target 60 feet away? That's 5 range increments beyond the first, so -10 to hit, +1 from fighter BAB, overall -9 penalty to hit AC 5, fighter needs to roll a 14... not too difficult.
You try and throw a hand grenade only 10' and not get hit by shrapnel.
My ex-military girlfriend says, "you aren't trained to throw a grenade really far, you're trained to throw it and take cover." You only have to throw a grenade farther than the casualty radius and take cover (burst effects don't go around cover).
And while these may be extremes from the real world, what about quarterbacks throwing a football 30, 40, 50 yards (150 feet!)
A football is more aerodynamically shaped than a sphere-ish bomb, and when properly thrown the spiral effect helps extend that. A football's range increment is surely greater than 10 feet, and pro footballers almost certainly have Far Shot on top of that. And a quarterback is going to have a higher Dex than an average grunt soldier with a grenade. Even with a 10' range increment, Far Shot drops the penalty at 120 feet from -22 to -11, which means the ftr1 (+1 BAB) his the AC 5 square on a 15 or higher... pretty accurate! If the range increment of a football is 20 ft. instead of 10 ft., the range penalty is only 5 increments beyond the first, thus only a -10 penalty to hit, or -5 if you have Far Shot.
to a moving target
Receiver has a readied action to move to the square the quarterback threw the ball to, which accounts for "missed" throws that don't go to the targeted square.
or a pitcher zipping a baseball 60'6" to the exact spot the catcher is holding his glove.
Weapon Focus, Far Shot, high Dex.
If a bomb is built properly for weight and aerodynamics it should get a much better range increment than 10'.
Feel free to make a feat called "Aerodynamic Bomb" that lets you make bombs with range increment 20, though you might want to increase the "casting time" to create a fancier bomb.
I think some people are taking 10' increment as to being the full range of the throw (hence the grenade shrapnel from 10' away comment).
Increment = one unit of the full range.
Thrown weapons have up to 5 increments.
Launched ammunition have up to 10 increments.
A thrown grenade would have a range of 50' before being considered "at it's limit".
A launched grenade would have 10x the launcher's increment (probably between 20' to 30' for such a large, non-balanced/aerodynamic object). A shaped charge in a proper launcher might have a 50' increment (500 foot range).
40 meters = 120 feet
40 metres = 131 feet (with some change)
seems petty, but that's an additional range increment.
My ex-military girlfriend says, "you aren't trained to throw a grenade really far, you're trained to throw it and take cover." You only have to throw a grenade farther than the casualty radius and take cover (burst effects don't go around cover).
I'm ex military as well. My grenade experience with live use 30 metre (98 feet) target ranges with a reccommended 'safe' distance of 12 metres (39 feet) or 22 metres (72 feet) with fragmentation
and yeah, grenades work best when you are dropping them close to you. the idea is that everyone is too close for comfort, but only you know to take cover early.
Batts
seems petty, but that's an additional range increment.
Remind me next time that I need to calculate and convert ranges to the inch the next time I stop by the boards at 9:30pm to answer a rules question. :/
seems petty, but that's an additional range increment.Remind me next time that I need to calculate and convert ranges to the inch the next time I stop by the boards at 9:30pm to answer a rules question. :/
Not to be difficult Sean, but as stated above, I was under the impression that the maximum 'range increment' you could send a weapon to was times 5. So, if a bomb has a 10 foot range increment, the farthest you can throw it is 50 feet.
I'm not complaining about that, I'm pretty sure that if you pick up a bottle of cologne (a vial, the little 2 ounce ones), and toss it as far as you can, you might get 60-75 feet at most. Just not enough mass to get a good throw behind.
But if the x5 has changed under PF, I'd be glad to hear about it.
Hmm, I forgot that x5 was in the rules (x10 for non-thrown), it just comes up so rarely.
Realistically, that rule is in the books to prevent people from shooting at targets a MILE away and counting on the auto-hit 20.
It's interesting to look at historical longbow ranges....
The range of the medieval weapon is unknown, with estimates from 165 to 228 m (180 to 249 yds). Modern longbows have a useful range up to 180 m (200 yd). A 667N(150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.9 oz) arrow 328.0 m (360 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.3 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (272 yd).[12] A flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds. It is also well known that no practice range was allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII.
200 yards ~ 660 feet = 6.6 range increments for a PF/3.5 longbow, clearly much less than the rules-defined maximum of 10 range increments.
400 yards ~ 1200 feet = 12 range incrementsI dunno, might be interesting to increase the limitations to range increments, as clearly you can accurately throw a grenade farther than 50 feet.
I think for fun's sake it would be worth it. It could be built into the class - at a certain point either the range increment max increases a little bit for every so many levels, or they get a bonus feat to improve their accuracy, etc. For play purposes, I think being able to throw something beyond a standard double move (60 feet), aka a charge, is probably what many a PC would want to be able to do. Perhaps it could even be tied into damage dice - when you get to 6d6, the max range increment goes to 60 feet, etc.
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Maybe the final version of the Alchemist will feature a "grenade mastery" class ability. At 2nd level, +10' range increment with grenade-like weapons. At 8th, 14th, and 20th, another +10' each. Maximum range is still capped at 5 increments, but by 20th level, you're looking at a max range of 250 feet! This, of course, would stack with Far Shot to achieve truly ridiculous ranges.
Bombs do not have the same problem that ranged weapons like a bow or javelin where not only do you need the range to reach the target but you also need to have enough force behind it to actually do damage when it reaches that target. Sure a longbow arrow could reach 300 or 400 yards, but will it do any more than bounce off armor or maybe scratch the opponent's skin when it gets that far? And yes, at extreme ranges whatever force is left behind the arrow comes more from it falling back out of the sky to the target rather than the force originally put into the shot.
But a bomb, depending on the type, only needs to land at the feet of the opponent or within a few feet for the splash/shrapnel damage it creates. This makes for a lot more leeway for range increments and max range, which really should be based on strength for distance and dexterity for accuracy, rather than a set amount. Of course, as I and someone else has mentioned, the shape and weight of a bomb would make a big difference in range and accuracy also. A feat or skill that allows someone to make a bomb made for long range versus short range would be good and without this feat or skill you are not able to throw the more awkward bomb further than 50' or 100'. Do not expect any range from a bomb shaped and weighted like a frozen turkey, but a bomb shaped and weighted like a softball should be much more accurate and have a much longer range.
Longbow grenades. That is all.
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Hey there folks,
I am going to look into this issue a bit... as I realize there are a few issues here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
*Cheer*
Thank you Jason!
Also, why are people talking about realistic things like grenades? These aren't grenades in the real world, they are magical bombs in a world whose rules of physics are dictated by gods and magic.
Longbow grenades. That is all.
This ain't Hazzard County, boy! ;)
¿Is there any kind of magic item to increase the trow distance?
Sure a longbow arrow could reach 300 or 400 yards, but will it do any more than bounce off armor or maybe scratch the opponent's skin when it gets that far? And yes, at extreme ranges whatever force is left behind the arrow comes more from it falling back out of the sky to the target rather than the force originally put into the shot.
Yes, it will. Projectile like that keep almost all of their force and momentum when fired at an angle.
Actually no matter what you do with the rules as they are currently written you can only throw 1 bomb a round. Even with Delay Bomb.
Detonating a bomb (typically by throwing the vial of volatile liquid) is a standard action that utilizes the “Throw Splash Weapon” special attack (see page 202 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
The rules for Throw Splash Weapon state it's a range weapon, and so you'd think you could throw your full round attack worth of bombs, but the line very specifically states it's a standard action to throw a bomb.
Also, why are people talking about realistic things like grenades? These aren't grenades in the real world, they are magical bombs in a world whose rules of physics are dictated by gods and magic.
Because the fundamental basics of the game assume real-world physics for how easy it is to climb, jump, hit someone, throw something, and so on. Once you start saying, "that doesn't matter, it's magic!" you may as well throw out your understanding of real-world physics, start making rules like "the result of your Climb or jump check is how many feet you travel that round," and other things that turn the game into Toon.
Because the fundamental basics of the game assume real-world physics for how easy it is to climb, jump, hit someone, throw something, and so on. Once you start saying, "that doesn't matter, it's magic!" you may as well throw out your understanding of real-world physics, start making rules like "the result of your Climb or jump check is how many feet you travel that round," and other things that turn the game into Toon.
*cough* Running Jump: For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). *cough*
Running jump !== standing jump, which is why I didn't say "running jump" or "rapid climb" in my example.
/rolleye
/rolleye
Reynolds rocks. Look how he answered these questions! Superb seriously. This discussion is why I love D&D. From first edition to even now with much-more-defined rules, there are still rules arguments...
Jason - whatever ends up being the case, there should be clarity on the ranged weapon mechanics of an Alchemist since there is such rule complexity arising...splash vs. grenade-like...for this class we will have to unbury the stuff that Reynolds has brought up and make it clear.
I figured that's what you meant, but I thought the similarity was too funny to pass up ^^
I heard you guys are planning on including a lot of new alchemical items in this book. What if one of them is like;
Grenade Vial, 10gp for 20
Unlike the standard glass vile an alchemist infuses with combustibles this hefty metal vile is designed to be thrown farther and more accurately. Grenade vials have a range increment of x10 and using one imparts +1 to the attack roll.
Slightly more expensive then masterwork arrows, settles the range increment issue, and gives you a nice little bonus.
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Because the fundamental basics of the game assume real-world physics for how easy it is to climb, jump, hit someone, throw something, and so on.
Yes, but in real life, people don't have hit points, and arrows cannot fly in a straight line for as long as they do in Pathfinder. This blatant ignoring of how things work in real life is fine by me though, because to make the game fun, we sometimes have to bend the rules of physics to make things work in an imaginary world. And because you are a developer, I am sure I am just preaching to the choir.
Grenade Vial, 10gp for 20
Unlike the standard glass vile an alchemist infuses with combustibles this hefty metal vile is designed to be thrown farther and more accurately. Grenade vials have a range increment of x10 and using one imparts +1 to the attack roll.
That is AWESOME! +1!
i think metal vials are not the way to go first off... it assumes the bombs will explode without the container first being shattered... and I would rather see the range on the alchemists bombs go up than an item that has an extended range
i think metal vials are not the way to go first off... it assumes the bombs will explode without the container first being shattered... and I would rather see the range on the alchemists bombs go up than an item that has an extended range
It's never stated the bomb has to shatter to detonate, perhaps the hard jarring of impact or even a minor magical fuse or spark that ignites it a fraction after it's thrown.
i think metal vials are not the way to go first off... it assumes the bombs will explode without the container first being shattered... and I would rather see the range on the alchemists bombs go up than an item that has an extended rangeIt's never stated the bomb has to shatter to detonate, perhaps the hard jarring of impact or even a minor magical fuse or spark that ignites it a fraction after it's thrown.
you are right ... it doesn't say it has to shatter and I suppose it could detonate simply through magical means set by the Alchemist for that matter... you know... throw the vial and think detonate and it does...
you are right ... it doesn't say it has to shatter and I suppose it could detonate simply through magical means set by the Alchemist for that matter... you know... throw the vial and think detonate and it does...i think metal vials are not the way to go first off... it assumes the bombs will explode without the container first being shattered... and I would rather see the range on the alchemists bombs go up than an item that has an extended rangeIt's never stated the bomb has to shatter to detonate, perhaps the hard jarring of impact or even a minor magical fuse or spark that ignites it a fraction after it's thrown.
The delay bomb discovery does state that if the vial is broken it explodes but it's the only bomb that goes into detail about this.