The DPR Olympics - or "I'm not the mechanic here, Ironsides! I mostly just hurt people!"

[A Man In Black]

SmiloDan wrote:

Too bad this is limited to level 10. I had the idea of a hasted Maralith Duskblade using Channel Spell to get off a dozen or so disintegrates....

Doesn't work.

[Gark the Goblin]

BobChuck wrote:

hogarth wrote:

By the way, I don't know whether to be pleased or disappointed that no one has made a tengu character just to squeeze in an extra natural attack. ;-)

Likely because, for everything that's been done so far, it's not worth the +2 to any ability score and +1 feat that humans give.

There's only been a few non humans. I suspect your post will lead to someone making an tengu, though. If it wasn';t a horribly unoptimized choice, I'd suggest a tengu barbarian, go for two bite attacks.

Also, while the monsters-as-PCs rules are borked for generic monsters (try making a troll as a PC, for instance), there are about a half dozen fellows in the Bestiary that have PC Race stats listed right there, including the Aasimar, Tiefling, Goblin, Kobold, Hobgoblin, Merfolk, and Tengu. So I think these guys should be on the table. If anything, they are a little underpowered.

*Sniff*

[Charender]

Greatsword Cleric 2.0

Corey Cleaver Cleric of Gorum

Spoiler:

Level 10 Human Cleric
Take the Holy Warrior option from PFC(Give up domains and domain powers for +1 BAB per level and d10 HD) assuming this is still allowed, it bumps power attack up by -1/+3, and allows access to the improved critical feat.

BAB +10

Str 26 (16 base + 4 from spell + 2 from racial)
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 18 (14 + 4 from item)
Chr 14

Feats
Weapon Focus(Greatsword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Quicken Spell
Improved Critical(Greatsword)

Bull's Strength lasts 10 minutes.

+1 Vicious Flaming Greatsword with greater magic weapon to make it a +2 weapon. This spell lasts for 10 hours. Only 2 attacks per round, and can heal themselves, so you can probably get away with Vicious enchantment.

Adding in a +3/+3 from quickened diving favor.

-3/+9 from power attack.

To hit 10(BAB) + 8(strength) + 3(divine favor) + 2(from weapon) -3(power attack) = +20

Damage normal = 2d6(greatsword) + 12 (strength) + 9(power attack) + 2(enhancement bonus) + 3 (divine favor) + 1d6(flaming) + 2d6(Vicious) = 43.5 damage average

Extra damage from crit = 2d6 + 12(strength) + 9(power attack) + 2(enhancement bonus) + 3(divine favor) = 33 damage average

Average damage from a channel = 5d6 = 17.5 average damage

So Full round for +20/+15 gives me an average DPR of 72.6 with crits accounted for. An extra attack is worth 42.6 DRR, and a +1 is worth 5 DPR.

I did the math, and it looks like taking channel smite and using it in place of the quickened divine favor results in a DPR loss in round 1, but in subsequent rounds it increases DPR by 14.9. Only usuable against undead and outsiders(if you get the Alignment Channel feat)

[Charender]

Friar Tuck Human Cleric 10 of Any God

Spoiler:

Str 18 (14 base + 4 from bull's strength)
Dex 18 (16 base + 2 from racial) need this for TWF feats
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18 (14 + 4 from item)
Chr 10

BAB +7

Feats
Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Quicken Spell

Quarterstaff +1 flaming on both ends(Vicious is more damage, but with 4 attack per round, the backlash could really start to hurt) with greater Magic weapon on both ends.

Quickened Divine Favor

To hit 7(BAB) + 4(strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (from weapon) - 2 (two weapon fighting) + 1(Weapon Focus) = 15

Main hand damage 1d6 + 2(enhancement) + 4 (Strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 1d6 (Flaming) = 16 damage

Off hand damage 1d6 + 2(enhancement) + 2 (Strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 1d6 (Flaming) = 14 damage

Main hand crit = 1d6 + 2 + 4 + 3 = 12.5 damage

Off hand crit = 1d6 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 10.5 damage

Power attack is -2 to hit and +2 mainhand/+1 offhand

So without power attack +15/+15/+10/+10. Average DPR is 30.7 with crits. Another attack is 9.6 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.6 DPR.

With Power Attack attack at +13/+13/+8/+8. Average DPR is 25.7 with crits. Another attack is 9 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.7 DPR.

This build is really hamstringed by the dex requirements on the TWF feats.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Greatsword Cleric 2.0

Corey Cleaver Cleric of Gorum

Your stats are better than elite array, you have short-duration buffs running, and you're using a goofy variant designed for 3.5 instead of core material. The last isn't so much a big deal as long as you make it clear that you're doing that, but the rest is a dealbreaker.

Friar Tuck has the same issue.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Greatsword Cleric 2.0

Corey Cleaver Cleric of Gorum

Your stats are better than elite array, you have short-duration buffs running, and you're using a goofy variant designed for 3.5 instead of core material. The last isn't so much a big deal as long as you make it clear that you're doing that, but the rest is a dealbreaker.

Friar Tuck has the same issue.

Elite Array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Min maxing mean you give your +1 from stat from level 4 and level 8 to your odd stats. This gives a level 10 character a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Correct?

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Elite Array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Min maxing mean you give your +1 from stat from level 4 and level 8 to your odd stats. This gives a level 10 character a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Correct?

Ah, I missed that you just added the level up boosts. I also missed that you're using Vicious and Flaming + GMW, making this another character that claims as personal benefit group-oriented buffs (which is not a criticism of your build so much as a criticism of the rules).

There's still the issue of Bull's Strength.

[meatrace]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Elite Array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Min maxing mean you give your +1 from stat from level 4 and level 8 to your odd stats. This gives a level 10 character a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Correct?

Ah, I missed that you just added the level up boosts. I also missed that you're using Vicious and Flaming + GMW, making this another character that claims as personal benefit group-oriented buffs (which is not a criticism of your build so much as a criticism of the rules).

There's still the issue of Bull's Strength.

Why is using a 4th level cleric spell claiming benefit from group-oriented buffs? He's casting it himself.

Sinc he hasn't posted a gear list the +4 magic could easily be just a belt. But how is he getting 26 STR? 15+1(level)+2(racial)+4(enhancement)is still only 22.

[A Man In Black]

meatrace wrote:

Why is using a 4th level cleric spell claiming benefit from group-oriented buffs? He's casting it himself.

Because at 10th level, everyone who needs GMW will have it if there's someone in the party who can cast it, and if casts of GMW are limited for some reason then you cast GMW on the party member who gains the greatest benefit.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

meatrace wrote:

Why is using a 4th level cleric spell claiming benefit from group-oriented buffs? He's casting it himself.

Because at 10th level, everyone who needs GMW will have it if there's someone in the party who can cast it, and if casts of GMW are limited for some reason then you cast GMW on the party member who gains the greatest benefit.

From the original wrote:

No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.

A cleric can cast greater magic weapon and it has a duration of 1 hour/level. The bull's strength is a misread, I thought buffs with a duration of 10 min were allowed, i missed the per level when I was skimming the rules. The bulls strength can be covered by swapping the +4 wisdom item for a +4 strength, and get a +4 wisdom item for a 18 wisdom without effecting the results. The only reason I care about wisdom at all is that I need a 15 wisdom so I can cast quickened divine favor. 2 +4 items and a +3 weapon costs 40k gold. Normal armor since I can cast Greater Magic Vestment on my armor, I have 8k gold to play with.

Yes, a figher can get someone to cast GMW on their sword, but this is about the character stand alone, so using the cleric's buff spells to the fullest is part of maximizing their damage under the rules.

A fighter is more likely to get a +3 weapon because they cannot rely on the party cleric to cast GMW on their sword all the time. A battle cleric on the other hand will save their GMW all for themselves and carry a weapon that will benefit from it.

[Charender]

meatrace wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Elite Array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Min maxing mean you give your +1 from stat from level 4 and level 8 to your odd stats. This gives a level 10 character a 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Correct?

Ah, I missed that you just added the level up boosts. I also missed that you're using Vicious and Flaming + GMW, making this another character that claims as personal benefit group-oriented buffs (which is not a criticism of your build so much as a criticism of the rules).

There's still the issue of Bull's Strength.

Why is using a 4th level cleric spell claiming benefit from group-oriented buffs? He's casting it himself.

Sinc he hasn't posted a gear list the +4 magic could easily be just a belt. But how is he getting 26 STR? 15+1(level)+2(racial)+4(enhancement)is still only 22.

You are correct, I had another +4 in there from another source that I removed, I missed it on recalculating.

With a 22 strength, lets see drops to +18 to hit, and loses 3 from his damage and crit damage.

That puts my DPR at 58.1. A +1 is worth 4.6 DPR, and an extra attack is worth 34.9 DPR.

Slightly behind a similar fighter build, but you have options like righteous might, bless for everyone, channeling heals, etc.

The friar tuck build doens't look all that effective, but it would be fun to RP.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Yes, a figher can get someone to cast GMW on their sword, but this is about the character stand alone, so using the cleric's buff spells to the fullest is part of maximizing their damage under the rules.

A fighter is more likely to get a +3 weapon because they cannot rely on the party cleric to cast GMW on their sword all the time. A battle cleric on the other hand will save their GMW all for themselves and carry a weapon that will benefit from it.

It's about baseline DPR. There's no reason for the cleric to hoard GMW for himself (or hoard healing for himself) if it generates more damage for the cleric to cast it on someone other than himself. It also skews things to imply that +1 vicious flaming weapons with GMW are somehow a cleric-only schtick, when they are not.

I'm going to go ahead and say that single-target spell buffs that aren't self-only are out.

If the buff more or less unlimited use (e.g. GMW), then everyone who needs it will have it if there's a party member who can cast the spell. This means that it can be safely eliminated for a baseline comparison.

If the buff is limited use (GMW from a caster with limited slots), then the party member who benefits most from it will get it. Since the best way to tell who benefits most is to look at baseline DPR before the buff, then it's best to calculate baseline DPR before rationed buffs.

If the buff affects the entire party (bardic performance), then the caster is always benefiting from the buff whenever possible, and there's no decision involved in figuring out who to cast the buff on. I'm not 100% happy with this but there's really no sense figuring things out assuming that bards won't be singing.

I'm going to post a new rule post for reference's sake.

[A Man In Black]

So. Revised rule post, including this change and some changes from upthread. I also added a sort-of-optional rule.

Level 10, since pretty much all classes are expected to have come into their own by then, plus it's a good round number. If you don't think this is a good level to use, feel free to redo the math for some other level; I know level 10 is arbitrary and any other level from about 4 on would work just as well.

Elite array. While I know most people play with more forgiving point-buys or rolling schemes, this is a baseline. The CR system was originally based around players using elite array or a comparable point buy.

Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis. This means 62K gold in gear (although some builds used the older 3.5 total of 45K). No custom items, please.

Pathfinder core (meaning the core rulebook and Bestiary) is preferred.

Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability. Most classes will have a +3 weapon(s), a +4 stat booster to their damage-increasing stat, and miscellaneous other items. Most classes will also have boring magical weapons, favoring plain bonuses over fiery or holy or whatnot; this is because it's almost always better DPR and it makes my life easier. Everyone will also have a Heward's Handy Haversack because, seriously, they are level 10 characters.

Regarding survivability, AC 22 and fort/will saves at +8 are the minimum for melee characters, barring some explanation of why the character doesn't need these things to survive. (For example, barbarians get cut some slack on AC because of their raging HP totals.)

The most optimal build of each class. If multiple optimal builds are possible (e.g. archery and another style), then each style will be a separate entry. If a build is genuinely more optimal by sacrificing DPR for some other benefit, then the sacrifice will be made. For example, rogues will use Crippling Strike and not Bleeding Strike. With that in mind, feel free to nit-pick the build of any entrant. The idea is that each example is as optimal as possible.
We'll also need a standard for the competition. This standard is meant to best simulate typical combat circumstances, when damage is most on the line.

Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines. Target touch AC, when relevant, is 12 because that seems as good as any number.

No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, are self-only or apply to the whole group, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.

A single full attack unless another attack routine is more effective. Classes with significant limited abilities, be they situational ones (favored enemy, sneak attack) or limited on a per-day basis (smite, Quickened Divine Favor), will have their damage figured out both with and without those limited abilities.

The value in DPR of a +1 to hit, a +1 damage, and an additional full-BAB attack will be figured out for each class. Some classes benefit more from one type of buff over another.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

And, finally, feel free to break any of these rules as long as you make it absolutely clear that you are doing so. If you want to stat a selfish cleric or a 3.5 splat build or a character that abuses consumables or a character that demonstrates a house rule, that's fine. Just don't make people dig into your build to find out that you've done so.

[Charender]

Charender wrote:

Friar Tuck Human Cleric 10 of Any God

** spoiler omitted **

So without power attack +15/+15/+10/+10. Average DPR is 30.7 with crits. Another attack is 9.6 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.6 DPR.

With Power Attack attack at +13/+13/+8/+8. Average DPR is 25.7 with crits. Another attack is 9 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.7 DPR.

This build is really hamstringed by the dex requirements on the TWF feats.

This build can be improved with a little munchkin oil.

Spoiler:

Belt of +4 strength/+2 dex is 22k gold(16 for +4 strength, 4k for +2 dex, 2k for having a second different ability on a slotted item)
Headband of Wisdom +2 is 4k gold
A dual +2 quarterstaff is 16k gold.
Total is 42k gold.

Stats
str 22 (14 base + 2 from levels + 4 from belt + 2 racial)
dex 17 (15 base + 2 from belt)
con 10
int 8
wis 15 (13 base +2 from headband)
chr 12

So net gain of +2 to hit, +2 to mainhand damage, +1 to offhand damage.

So without power attack +17/+17/+12/+12. Average DPR is 38.9 with crits. Another attack is 12.5 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.9 DPR.

With Power Attack attack at +15/+15/+10/+10. Average DPR is 36.0 with crits. Another attack is 8.5 DPR. A +1 to hit is 1.7 DPR.

Of course if you lose your belt ITWF feat cannot be used.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Belt of +4 strength/+2 dex is 22k gold(16 for +4 strength, 4k for +2 dex, 2k for having a second different ability on a slotted item)

Homebrew items were excluded, although that was fairly deep in the thread. Otherwise all of the dual-wielders and archers would have this.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Yes, a figher can get someone to cast GMW on their sword, but this is about the character stand alone, so using the cleric's buff spells to the fullest is part of maximizing their damage under the rules.

A fighter is more likely to get a +3 weapon because they cannot rely on the party cleric to cast GMW on their sword all the time. A battle cleric on the other hand will save their GMW all for themselves and carry a weapon that will benefit from it.

It's about baseline DPR. There's no reason for the cleric to hoard GMW for himself (or hoard healing for himself) if it generates more damage for the cleric to cast it on someone other than himself. It also skews things to imply that +1 vicious flaming weapons with GMW are somehow a cleric-only schtick, when they are not.

I'm going to go ahead and say that single-target spell buffs that aren't self-only are out.

If the buff more or less unlimited use (e.g. GMW), then everyone who needs it will have it if there's a party member who can cast the spell. This means that it can be safely eliminated for a baseline comparison.

If the buff is limited use (GMW from a caster with limited slots), then the party member who benefits most from it will get it. Since the best way to tell who benefits most is to look at baseline DPR before the buff, then it's best to calculate baseline DPR before rationed buffs.

If the buff affects the entire party (bardic performance), then the caster is always benefiting from the buff whenever possible, and there's no decision involved in figuring out who to cast the buff on. I'm not 100% happy with this but there's really no sense figuring things out assuming that bards won't be singing.

I'm going to post a new rule post for reference's sake.

Yes and no. If the fighter has a +2 weapon they cannot benefit from a level 10 GMW. Why wouldn't the cleric use the GMW themselves? In short, I am going to make damn sure I benefit the most from my own spells.

If I have a spell that is available to me, then I am going to build my character based on having that spell. That means as a cleric I am going to go for a +1 keen flaming weapon over a +3 weapon. At level 20 i will take a +1 with +4 worth of bonuses over a +5. If I cannot benefit from GMW, then who is to say I am even going to memorize the damn thing? There are plenty of other 4th levels spells to take.

Meanwhile as a level 10 fighter I would probably never take keen, because I will most likely pick up improved critical from my bonus feats, so I would select the +3 weapon because it give me the most bang for my buck.

Basically you are saying that fighters can select their magic weapon around having feats like improved critical that duplicate magic weapon effects, but a cleric cannot plan their build around a 1 hour per level spells that duplicate magic weapon effects?

Also, clerics are much better at healing themselves than they are at healing other people. It has to do with all of the single target cure spells having a range of touch. Quickened cure light wounds is a swift action on yourself, but I am pretty sure it takes a standard action to touch another player(touching 6 other players is a full round action).

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Belt of +4 strength/+2 dex is 22k gold(16 for +4 strength, 4k for +2 dex, 2k for having a second different ability on a slotted item)

Homebrew items were excluded, although that was fairly deep in the thread. Otherwise all of the dual-wielders and archers would have this.

It hardly matters. Even with that item, the DPR was not that great. Replace it with a Deep Red Ioun stone. Cost 2k more than the custom item.

[Zairos]

Patrick Fudge, human fighter 6/duelist 4

Spoiler:

Ability Scores:
Str: 16(+3)(14 base, +2 belt)
Dex: 20(+5)(15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +2 belt)
Con: 14(+2)(13 base, +1 racial, -2 racial, +2 belt)
Int: 12(+2)(12 base, +2 racial)
Wis: 10(0)
Cha: 8(-1)

HP: 95 (10d10+20(con)+10(toughness)+6(favored class: fighter))

Saving Throws:
Fort: 11 (6 base, 2 con, 3 cloak)
Ref: 11 (4 base, 5 dex, 3 cloak, 2 grace)
Will: 8 (+10 against fear) (3 base, 3 cloak, 2 feat)

AC: 27(35 against AoO) (10 base, 7 dex (5 dex+2 int), 7 armor, 1 dodge, 1 deflection, 1 natural armor)

Attacks: Rapier +20/+15 (10 BAB, 5 dex, 3 enhancement, 1 WF, 1 training, )
Damage: 1d6+13(15-20/x2) (3 str, 2 WS, 3 enhancement, 1 training, 4 precise strike)

BAB: +10 CMB: 13 CMD: 28

Feats:
Weapon Focus - Rapier
Weapon Finesse
Toughness
Power Attack
Weapon Specialization - Rapier
Dodge
Mobility
Iron Will
Improved Critical - Rapier

Gear:
+3 Rapier (18.02k)
Belt of physical perfection +2 (16k)
+3 Mithral chain shirt (10.1k)
Cloak of resistance +3 (9k)
Handy haversack (2k)
Ring of protection +1 (2k)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (2k)
2880 GP left to buy a bow and other stuff

Average DPR with Power Attack: 33.64. A +1 to hit is worth 2.93 DPR, a +1 to damage 1.50 DPR and an extra attack 20.48 DPR.

Hey, it's better than the monk! Now, seriously, the duelist damage scales well with level, Riposte at level 11 is interesting and Crippling Critical at level 16 is awesome (-4 to saving throws or AC! Str or Dex damage!). I think it's playable at high levels, but will suffer at low-mid levels.

Comments?

[Charender]

Mistress of the Fey
Level 10 Human Fey Sorcerer

Spoiler:

Str 8
Dex 18 (14 + 4 belt)
Con 14 (13 + 1 from level)
Int 10
Wis 12
Chr 24 (15 + 1 from level + 2 racial + 6 headband)

Feats
Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Exotic Weapon Profiency(Whip) <- Any good mistress will have this!
Quicken Spell
Empower Spell
Spell Penetration

Items
Belt of Fortitude +4 (16k)
Headband of Charisma +6 (32k)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9k)
57k, 5k to spare

AC: 22 (Mage Armor + Quickened Shield Spell + Dex)
HP: 37.5 average base + 20 from con = 57.5 in addition to stoneskin since it is 10 min/level
Fort: 3(Base) + 3(Cloak) + 2(Con) = +8
Ref: 3(Base) + 3(Cloak) + 4(Dex) = +10
Will: 7(Base) + 3(Cloak) + 1(Wis) = +11

DC on spells is 17 + spell level. Enchantments are +2. Compulsion sub-school is +2.

Key spells
Level 1: Mage Armor, Shield
Level 2: Hideous Laughter(DC 22, Enchantment(Compulsion))
Level 3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt (DC 10 + 3(Spell level) + 7 (Charisma) = 19), Hold Person(DC 23, Enchantment(Compulsion))
Level 4: Stoneskin, Confusion(DC 25, Enchantment(Compulsion))
Level 5: Dominate Person (DC 26, Enchantment(Compulsion))

I also put in some of the lower level Enchantment(Compulsion) spells to show that this character would still be useful a lower levels. At level 1, this build would have a DC 16 sleep spell, although you should swap that out for something else at later levels.

Average fireball/lightning bolt damage = 35(17.5 on a save)
Average empowered fireball/lightning bolt damage = 52.5(26.25 half)

My damage from the empowered lightning bolt against a +8 save(50% chance to save) is 39.4 DPR.

Yes, I am cheesing the letter of the rules, but dominate person is 1 day per level. No reason I can go find a strong body/weak minded NPC to dominate and drag them around as my minion indefinately.

I know this is not what you are looking for, but I personally think that turning the strongest melee character against his friends is way more powerful that just dealing damage. You negate the damage they would be dealing and you use them to deal damage.

I am assuming that I am making these character do something they normall wouldn't do, so all my numbers are based on the target getting 2 saves(3 if they have improved iron will).

So I just hunt down Jack B. Nimble with his +6 will save. He needs a natural 20(95% chance) for a 90% chance that I stay in control after 2 saves. So, I have a 90% chance of keeping him as my pet, so I should get 90% of his DPR plus I toss out an empowered fireball. Total DPR is 80.5 against a target that can be sneak attacked.

Tempest Ted needs an 18(85% chance) for a 72.3% chance that I stay in control. 72.3% of his damage plus my lightning bolt gives me a DPR of 78.1.

Falchion Fred also needs an 18, but with the extra reroll, I only have a 61.4% chance to stay in control. 61.4% of his damage + my lightning bolt gives me 76.3 DPR.

It was interesting to see how a fighter WITH Iron Will and Improved Iron Will would fare. With a +8 will save, and 3 attempts to break free(Once when the spell is cast, once for the IIW reroll, once when you get told to do something you wouldn't do), you still only have a 61.4% chance of escaping. The poor rogue with a +6 wouldn't stand a chance.

[james maissen]

A Man In Black wrote:

I'm going to go ahead and say that single-target spell buffs that aren't self-only are out.

I think that you are better off having a list of such spells and how much they can alter each character.

Your point before was that every party doesn't always have a GMW. Now you're seeing how that's skewed things and you're jumping again. Cover each base separately rather than trying to cover both at once.

For most parties you will have damagers with boots of speed as arcanists don't always have the action available to cast haste, but unless its missing from the party (or too limited a resource) purchasing higher than +1 weapons is very rare.

That's at least from my experience, yours may vary,

James

[Ellington]

I think the sorcerer can be done a lot better, at least in terms of DPR.

Ray-Ray, the Ray-Sorcerer

Spoiler:

Race:
Halfling
Draconic Bloodline

HP: 68
AC: 22(10 base, +1 size, +4 mage armor, +2 natural, +5 dex)

STATS

Str 8 (10 base, -2 racial)
Dex 20 (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
Con 14 (13 base, +1 level)
Int 10 (10 base)
Wis 8 (10 base, -2 racial)
Cha 24 (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +6 headband)

FEATS

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus (Ray)
Empower Spell
Improved Iniative
Quicken Spell

ITEMS
Belt of Fortitude +4 (16k)
Headband of Charisma +6 (32k)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9k)
Same as the one above, 5 k to spare

KEY SPELLS

Level 1: Mage Armor, Magic Missile
Level 2: Scorching Ray

I think that's pretty much what we need, at least for this demonstration.

His attack bonus with ray attacks is 13.
Empowered Scorching Ray damage = 1,5(4x3.5)+5.
(+4 from the draconic bloodline, +1 from point blank shot) At level 2, he can fire off two of those.

If he fires off a scorching ray on a creature with a touch AC of 13-14, he has a DPR of 54,34. If he wants to go all out, he can quicken a magic missile on top of this damage to pump that up to 71,84 DPR. I know this could be a lot different by using other spells but I don't want to deal with saving throws as this thread is mostly about Attack vs AC.

Level 10, like the bard, is a pretty poor snapshot of the ray sorcerer. His DPR increases a lot over the next two levels, but I think 71 is pretty decent for a blaster for the purposes of this experiment. I know that fire resistance is pretty abundant at these levels and so is fire resistance/immunity and spell resistance/immunity, but if he finds himself in those situations he still has almost all of his spell slots left to fill.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Yes and no. If the fighter has a +2 weapon they cannot benefit from a level 10 GMW. Why wouldn't the cleric use the GMW themselves? In short, I am going to make damn sure I benefit the most from my own spells.

If I have a spell that is available to me, then I am going to build my character based on having that spell. That means as a cleric I am going to go for a +1 keen flaming weapon over a +3 weapon.

All of which is equally true of a fighter, paladin, ranger, etc. as long as there's a wizard or cleric in the party. It's a benefit every class can benefit from equally, so no class benefits from it in this listing.

Does that make sense?

[james maissen]

A Man In Black wrote:

All of which is equally true of a fighter, paladin, ranger, etc. as long as there's a wizard or cleric in the party. It's a benefit every class can benefit from equally, so no class benefits from it in this listing.

Does that make sense?

It skews the gear purchases. In some cases dramatically.

Moreover some builds do not use weapons, or the same number of them which exacerbates this even more.

For example if PC A is dual wielding +3 weapons we're talking over half PC A's wealth here!

-James

[A Man In Black]

james maissen wrote:

It skews the gear purchases. In some cases dramatically.

Moreover some builds do not use weapons, or the same number of them which exacerbates this even more.

For example if PC A is dual wielding +3 weapons we're talking over half PC A's wealth here!

But that same PC would be wielding +1 holy (or whatever) weapons in a party with GMW. He'd still be throwing a huge pile of gold at awesome weapons, just different awesome weapons.

I admit that handwaving the advantages of a (+1 holy weapon plus GMW) versus (+3 weapon) is kludgey, but the alternative is to figure out a set of common baseline buffs for level 10 and down that road lies madness.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

james maissen wrote:

It skews the gear purchases. In some cases dramatically.

Moreover some builds do not use weapons, or the same number of them which exacerbates this even more.

For example if PC A is dual wielding +3 weapons we're talking over half PC A's wealth here!

But that same PC would be wielding +1 holy (or whatever) weapons in a party with GMW. He'd still be throwing a huge pile of gold at awesome weapons, just different awesome weapons.

I admit that handwaving the advantages of a (+1 holy weapon plus GMW) versus (+3 weapon) is kludgey, but the alternative is to figure out a set of common baseline buffs for level 10 and down that road lies madness.

I am not sure I buy that logic. If I am playing a melee cleric, then I am going to use +1 whatever weapons, because I get to decide each morning if I am going to memorize a GMW.

First, GMW is a 4th level spell. Lets see who else in the group will bring it.

By asking a wizard to memorize a GMW for you you are asking them to give up a Confusion, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, etc.

There is no way in hell any sorcerer I play is going to put GMW down as one of my known spells. It is way to much of a sacrifice in versatility on a class that is already lacking in versatility.

So that leaves cleric. A cleric who memorizes GMW and gives it to the fighter is giving up a cure critical wounds right off the bat because once they cast GMW that is one less spell available for conversion. Second, the cleric is giving up a Summon Monster IV, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, Dismissal, Holy Smite, Divine Power, Neutralize Poison, Restoration. If I was a non-Melee cleric, You would be hard pressed to get me to memorize a GMW over Summon Monster IV, Holy Smite, Neutralize Poison, and Restoration. The are all powerful situational spells that I can convert into my strongest single target cure if the situation does not arise. Heal may be a more powerful healing spell, but I cannot spontaneously convert other spells to heals

Second, some players are ok with being the groups buff and heal BI#$%@#. Other players are not. Call this selfish or not, but they are here to have fun just the same as you, and if they the want to memorize smite evil, summon monster IV, or Divine Power because that is more fun for them than making the fighters +1 weapon a +2 weapon, that is their choice. If they decide that, then the fighter will not have a GMW available. As a melee cleric, I can and will memorize spells that make me more effective in combat.

Third, if it happens that my GMW benefits the fighter more than me, I might give it too him, but if you look at the numbers I can put up compared to the fighter builds, I would argue that it benefits my cleric build as much as it benefits any of the rogue or fighter builds. If I go from 50-55 DPR from casting GMW, and the fighter goes from 55-60, then he is NOT getting more benefit, he is getting the same net benefit, 5 DPR. Therefore it is NOT selfish for me to keep my GMW to myself.

For all of these reason, as a rogue or fighter I would not plan my build around having GMW or any similar spell available. As a cleric I would.

As for those selfish clerics who don't heal in combat... Not healing other players in combat as a cleric isn't selfish, it is generally the smartest thing you can do.
A. A clerics strongest single target heals are range touch. That means the cleric often has to risk AoOs and/or put themselves in harms way to heal others. Sometime the cleric simply cannot get to someone. I can always be sure I will be in range of my own touch spells, the fighter or rogue cannot say the same.
B. I can cast quickened cure light spells on myself as a swift action, for me to do the same for anyone else I have to take a move or standard action to touch them(which negates the purpose of quickening the spell).
C. Healing in combat is often akin to pissing in the wind. We are talking about level 10 characters that can deal 60ish damage per round. Facing a level 11 version of Falchion Fred would be a CR 10 encounter. A level 10 cleric heals 4d8 + 10 = 28 damage on average with their strongest single target heal. If I also burn a level 5 spell to cast a quickened cure light on top of that, I get and extra 1d8 +5 for a whopping total of 37.5 damage healed on average. The next round the fighter gets smashed for another 50-60 damage. I can pop my channel to heal 17.5 average to everyone in 30 feet or a mass cure light for 14.5 average. The average base damage damage from a level 10 fireball is 35 save for half. Any level 10 wizard could be casting empowered fireballs for an average of 47.5 save for half.

During combat, there are times where a clutch heal can make or break the fight, but this isn't an MMO where you healer can stand back in a safe place and easily keep the entire group healed. More often than not the party is better served by the cleric either debuffing enemies to reduce incomming damage(holy smite can blind all evil creatures caught in it for example) or smashing face(falchion fred and corey cleaver can one round most of the characters posted in this thread if they work together) to leave less enemies up and available to fight back. If PF, the best defense is a good offense.

As a cleric, I am much more comfortable with my ability to heal myself in a pinch. The rogue or fighter that decides the best place for him to be in on the other side of a huge dragon, not so much. It is not that I don't want to heal him, it has more to do with the hostile dragon that has issues with me healing him.

In closing, if you want selfish, being forced to blow a 5th level spell slot for the cleric to benefit from divine favor is HUGELY selfish on the cleric's part. There are so many other 5th level spells a cleric can memorize that will benefit the party way more than that +3/+3. Your rules force all of the cleric builds to do this to to be remotely competitive. Anyway, now that you have changed the rules, might as well change the thread title to DPR Olympics(For purists only, fighters and rogues apply apply inside, buff based classes can go DIAF). The more you change the rules the more it seems like the purpose of this thread is to show how great your fighter builds are.

['Rixx]

This topic is rather insightful, I think - I like how it's geared toward real-world battle situations instead of theoretical number-crunches.

A message to A Man In Black: Is there any way I can get into contact with you privately, for reasons related to this topic?

[angryscrub]

Charender wrote:

...lots of stuff...

In closing, if you want selfish, being forced to blow a 5th level spell slot for the cleric to benefit from divine favor is HUGELY selfish on the cleric's part. There are so many other 5th level spells a cleric can memorize that will benefit the party way more than that +3/+3. Your rules force all of the cleric builds to do this to to be remotely competitive. Anyway, now that you have changed the rules, might as well change the thread title to DPR Olympics(For purists only, fighters and rogues apply apply inside, buff based classes can go DIAF). The more you change the rules the more it seems like the purpose of this thread is to show how great your fighter builds are.

ummm.

first, it's not a competition. it's an attempt to get an idea of pathfinder core baseline damage using builds that are at least plausible to see in play and survive, and be useful in a party. true, the requirements are somewhat arbitrary, but how could they not be?

second, no one is claiming quickened divine favor is a good idea. if anything, i'd say the math shows it's actually not a really good idea.

third, are you familiar with the concept of tiers? i doubt that ANYONE who's posted in this thread thinks anything but that fighters are a lower tier than full spellcasters. and i know for a fact that a man in black thinks fighters are weaker than full spellcasters (clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards) because he says so in every dang tier thread that pops up.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

First, GMW is a 4th level spell. Lets see who else in the group will bring it.

By asking a wizard to memorize a GMW for you you are asking them to give up a Confusion, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, etc.

There is no way in hell any sorcerer I play is going to put GMW down as one of my known spells. It is way to much of a sacrifice in versatility on a class that is already lacking in versatility.

Third-level for sorcerers and wizards. And I wouldn't feel badly for taking GMW as my character level 7 spell in a party with three people who can use GMW; that's something like 15-20 DPR every round for the entire day for no action expenditure.

As for clerics:

Quote:

Third, if it happens that my GMW benefits the fighter more than me, I might give it too him, but if you look at the numbers I can put up compared to the fighter builds, I would argue that it benefits my cleric build as much as it benefits any of the rogue or fighter builds.

No. It doesn't. That's one of the reasons for calculating the baseline DPR before non-self-only buffs: so that you can place limited buffs ideally. This isn't some competition where I'm trying to show that fighters win and clerics lose; it's a comparison of one limited aspect of every class where (unsurprisingly) the specialists get the high results.

If GMW isn't better than SM4, Holy Smite, etc. for the fighter, it certainly isn't better for the cleric.

If you want to look at it as a competition, look at it less as an open one and more as a classed one. Figure out how to optimize damage within the class rather than worrying too much about pushing a case for one class or another. Nobody's going to be arguing that clerics are underpowered compared to fighters any time soon.

'Rixx wrote:

A message to A Man In Black: Is there any way I can get into contact with you privately, for reasons related to this topic?

My e-mail is intermittent and unreliable. Drop me a PM over on the Gaming Den boards, where my username is the same as here, or on the WOTC boards, where I'm A_Man_In_Black.

[Charender]

angryscrub wrote:

ummm.

first, it's not a competition. it's an attempt to get an idea of pathfinder core baseline damage using builds that are at least plausible to see in play and survive, and be useful in a party. true, the requirements are somewhat arbitrary, but how could they not be?

second, no one is claiming quickened divine favor is a good idea. if anything, i'd say the math shows it's actually not a really good idea.

third, are you familiar with the concept of tiers? i doubt that ANYONE who's posted in this thread thinks anything but that fighters are a lower tier than full spellcasters. and i know for a fact that a man in black thinks fighters are weaker than full spellcasters (clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards) because he says so in every dang tier thread that pops up.

My problem is simply this. Clerics possess lots of personal buffs that to me are part of the baseline of the class. If Divine Favor and Divine Power are not part of the baseline of the class, then why were they changed in PF to be non-stackable? At this point there are so many things wrong with the arbitrary rules, that the whole exercise feels pointless. You are getting an ok baseline for non-buffing classes, but any class with powerful self buffs is going to be way off.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

My problem is simply this. Clerics possess lots of personal buffs that to me are part of the baseline of the class. If Divine Favor and Divine Power are not part of the baseline of the class, then why were they changed in PF to be non-stackable? At this point there are so many things wrong with the arbitrary rules, that the whole exercise feels pointless. You are getting an ok baseline for non-buffing classes, but any class with powerful self buffs is going to be way off.

Self-buffs are still in for the baseline; that didn't change. Quickened Divine Favor is still in for the same reason that paladin smite is in.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

My problem is simply this. Clerics possess lots of personal buffs that to me are part of the baseline of the class. If Divine Favor and Divine Power are not part of the baseline of the class, then why were they changed in PF to be non-stackable? At this point there are so many things wrong with the arbitrary rules, that the whole exercise feels pointless. You are getting an ok baseline for non-buffing classes, but any class with powerful self buffs is going to be way off.

Self-buffs are still in for the baseline; that didn't change. Quickened Divine Favor is still in for the same reason that paladin smite is in.

Yes, we have all these cleric builds using DF when Righteous Might is a much much better self buff for melee(+4 strength, +2 armor, size increase to weapon damage, reach, damage reduction).

If you really want a baseline, allow casting classes to cast a single standard action personal buff spell. Any melee build would have to spend the first round of combat moving into melee. Why can't other builds cast personal buffs while manuvering into combat?

[james maissen]

A Man In Black wrote:

Self-buffs are still in for the baseline; that didn't change. Quickened Divine Favor is still in for the same reason that paladin smite is in.

Yet for some reason you baulk at item self buffs that are limited per day.

What's the difference between a limited per day class feature (spell, smite, rage) and say boots of speed, bag of tricks, etc?

There are problems in the baseline as you are trying to make this somewhat linear while keeping certain variables (party composition/outside buffs) undefined.

I do agree with you that GMW is a very viable spell.. in fact it tends to really start to shine around a level or two higher than this comparison (around 12th CL). I recall seeing it chained even (as a 6th level wizard/sorcerer spell) in parties and considered 'broken' rather than 'weak'.

-James

[Charender]

james maissen wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Self-buffs are still in for the baseline; that didn't change. Quickened Divine Favor is still in for the same reason that paladin smite is in.

Yet for some reason you baulk at item self buffs that are limited per day.

What's the difference between a limited per day class feature (spell, smite, rage) and say boots of speed, bag of tricks, etc?

There are problems in the baseline as you are trying to make this somewhat linear while keeping certain variables (party composition/outside buffs) undefined.

I do agree with you that GMW is a very viable spell.. in fact it tends to really start to shine around a level or two higher than this comparison (around 12th CL). I recall seeing it chained even (as a 6th level wizard/sorcerer spell) in parties and considered 'broken' rather than 'weak'.

-James

The viability of GMW varies greatly with party level and gear.

It is near useless at level 5-7(duration too short, and only a +1).

It is iffy at level 10, +2 when everyone should already have +1 weapons. That is only a 7ish DPR increase for you best melee(they should have at least a +1 weapon at that point). Now if for some reason your someone is still using a MW weapon, or you need to give your silver dagger some more power, then it is a good spell.

At level 12, it becomes very useful. A +3 for 12 hours, and at this point wizards and sorcs have access to level 6 spells, so their level 3 spell slots are not so precious.

Also, with the loss of weapon and ammunition stacking, the other great use of GMW(to get cheap expendable magic ammo) is gone.

[A Man In Black]

Charender wrote:

Why can't other builds cast personal buffs while manuvering into combat?

RF and DF stack.

Anyway, the reason other builds don't cast personal buffs while maneuvering into combat is because the amount of time you get to cast buffs is very situational and there are always lots of short-duration buffs coming from all over the place.

I was probably going to just figure out the DPR with RF running when I got around to statting a melee cleric anyway. Sheesh.

Quote:

Yet for some reason you baulk at item self buffs that are limited per day.

There are problems in the baseline as you are trying to make this somewhat linear while keeping certain variables (party composition/outside buffs) undefined.

Stacking issues and wanting to completely isolate this from consumable items (which are 100% gamebreaking if you really get to abuse them). I made a gut call that I didn't want to have everyone wearing Boots of Speed, so I outlawed them. This one is about as arbitrary as choosing level 10.

As for other buffs, part of the point of this thread was to illustrate who the best target for those buffs is. It's not always the highest DPR character; Heroism gives a quite outrageous boost to the TWF rogue (who is not a DPR powerhouse), for example.

[Charender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Charender wrote:

Why can't other builds cast personal buffs while manuvering into combat?

RF and DF stack.

Anyway, the reason other builds don't cast personal buffs while maneuvering into combat is because the amount of time you get to cast buffs is very situational and there are always lots of short-duration buffs coming from all over the place.

I was probably going to just figure out the DPR with RF running when I got around to statting a melee cleric anyway. Sheesh.

I know they stack. I was more annoyed by the rules forcing me into using DF over RM because it was the only self buff that could be quickened. This is especially loathsome because I rarely ever see any level 10 characters with quickened spells. Quickened spell are something you rarely see before level 11, and even then it isn't really all that useful before level 13. Seriously, what level 10 caster wastes their 2 or 3 level 5 slots casting quickened magic missles? Level 13 or 15 when you have higher level spells available sure, but not level 10.

I have played a clerics enough to know you will never get all your buffs up. Most combats last 4-5 rounds, and each round you send buffing is a round your are not doing damage. At the same time, the first round of combat is generally a lot of manuvering. Most of the time melee character are not going to get a full round attack on round one. It is fairly easy for a cleric to squeeze in a single buff spell during the first round while you are manuvering into combat.

Personally, I think you would get a better baseline allowing a single self-cast personal buff with no quickened spells.

A Man In Black wrote:

Quote:

Yet for some reason you baulk at item self buffs that are limited per day.

There are problems in the baseline as you are trying to make this somewhat linear while keeping certain variables (party composition/outside buffs) undefined.

Stacking issues and wanting to completely isolate this from consumable items (which are 100% gamebreaking if you really get to abuse them). I made a gut call that I didn't want to have everyone wearing Boots of Speed, so I outlawed them. This one is about as arbitrary as choosing level 10.

As for other buffs, part of the point of this thread was to illustrate who the best target for those buffs is. It's not always the highest DPR character; Heroism gives a quite outrageous boost to the TWF rogue (who is not a DPR powerhouse), for example.

I actually agree with the no boots of speed, etc rule. It creates a situation where you can seriously boost you DPR, but then you get no benefit from a lot of the common party buffs. A lot of the limited use item duplicate effects that you have a high chance of getting from another party member.

The dual wielders will also get more benefit from a bard's song or the cleric's destruction domain ability than the two handers.

[james maissen]

A Man In Black wrote:

I made a gut call that I didn't want to have everyone wearing Boots of Speed, so I outlawed them. This one is about as arbitrary as choosing level 10.

As for other buffs, part of the point of this thread was to illustrate who the best target for those buffs is. It's not always the highest DPR character; Heroism gives a quite outrageous boost to the TWF rogue (who is not a DPR powerhouse), for example.

First, I see many PCs in this level range with Boots of Speed so I think its a skew against where funds would go. Its something that reflects the early round pressures on the arcanist to act, and the value of that extra attack in when presented with a full round attack action. It seems as viable as rage or smite to me.

Second, it skews against builds that benefit more from haste than others.

Third, I agree that illustrating where certain buffs should go is good. But I don't think this does it well.

And lastly, there is a difference between what you can do with potions/scrolls and with staves/spells/class abilities. I think the line is in the wrong place.

Likewise I think keeping the rest of the party as nebulous is a bit like asking for things in a vacuum. It limits what relevance that you can have here. I think better would be to give a few scenarios as to potential buffs available and have adapted builds for each.

-James

[Charender]

james maissen wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

I made a gut call that I didn't want to have everyone wearing Boots of Speed, so I outlawed them. This one is about as arbitrary as choosing level 10.

As for other buffs, part of the point of this thread was to illustrate who the best target for those buffs is. It's not always the highest DPR character; Heroism gives a quite outrageous boost to the TWF rogue (who is not a DPR powerhouse), for example.

First, I see many PCs in this level range with Boots of Speed so I think its a skew against where funds would go. Its something that reflects the early round pressures on the arcanist to act, and the value of that extra attack in when presented with a full round attack action. It seems as viable as rage or smite to me.

Second, it skews against builds that benefit more from haste than others.

Third, I agree that illustrating where certain buffs should go is good. But I don't think this does it well.

And lastly, there is a difference between what you can do with potions/scrolls and with staves/spells/class abilities. I think the line is in the wrong place.

Likewise I think keeping the rest of the party as nebulous is a bit like asking for things in a vacuum. It limits what relevance that you can have here. I think better would be to give a few scenarios as to potential buffs available and have adapted builds for each.

-James

I am actually working on a different scenario that is more of a real world approach. This scenario is dead on for a fighter archer build(IE someone who can generally go full attack on round one), but it leaves a lot to be desired when looking at melee and buff based builds.

[meatrace]

Charender wrote:

james maissen wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

I made a gut call that I didn't want to have everyone wearing Boots of Speed, so I outlawed them. This one is about as arbitrary as choosing level 10.

As for other buffs, part of the point of this thread was to illustrate who the best target for those buffs is. It's not always the highest DPR character; Heroism gives a quite outrageous boost to the TWF rogue (who is not a DPR powerhouse), for example.

First, I see many PCs in this level range with Boots of Speed so I think its a skew against where funds would go. Its something that reflects the early round pressures on the arcanist to act, and the value of that extra attack in when presented with a full round attack action. It seems as viable as rage or smite to me.

Second, it skews against builds that benefit more from haste than others.

Third, I agree that illustrating where certain buffs should go is good. But I don't think this does it well.

And lastly, there is a difference between what you can do with potions/scrolls and with staves/spells/class abilities. I think the line is in the wrong place.

Likewise I think keeping the rest of the party as nebulous is a bit like asking for things in a vacuum. It limits what relevance that you can have here. I think better would be to give a few scenarios as to potential buffs available and have adapted builds for each.

-James

I am actually working on a different scenario that is more of a real world approach. This scenario is dead on for a fighter archer build(IE someone who can generally go full attack on round one), but it leaves a lot to be desired when looking at melee and buff based builds.

Excellent. I'm very interested to see the results of such an approach. However there's little point in whinging on this thread about how unfair it is. I get what AMIB is going for, we just want a baseline comparison of what different classes are capable of doing at an abritrary level to aid in optimization. If someone is like "I have this build, it's great, it does 39 DPR at level 10" we can be like "that's a bit under par actually"

[james maissen]

meatrace wrote:

I get what AMIB is going for, we just want a baseline comparison of what different classes are capable of doing at an abritrary level to aid in...

The problem is when some of the arbitrary constraints skew the builds/gear.

-James

[meatrace]

james maissen wrote:

meatrace wrote:

I get what AMIB is going for, we just want a baseline comparison of what different classes are capable of doing at an abritrary level to aid in...

The problem is when some of the arbitrary constraints skew the builds/gear.

-James

I don't think they're abitrary. Relatively unbuffed is fair since we're looking for BASELINE not actual numbers. Sure most everyone at those levels is going to have Haste if they want it. Heck in a lot of cases they'll all have Inspire Courage or Heroism. We're trying to get a base number that can easily be modified by such buffs so we can say "in X scenario Y class beats it out because he has time to Z" etc etc.

I find this data to be interesting and useful. If you think it is skewed I implore you to create a different one. I look forward to the results there too.

[Charender]

meatrace wrote:

I don't think they're abitrary. Relatively unbuffed is fair since we're looking for BASELINE not actual numbers. Sure most everyone at those levels is going to have Haste if they want it. Heck in a lot of cases they'll all have Inspire Courage or Heroism. We're trying to get a base number that can easily be modified by such buffs so we can say "in X scenario Y class beats it out because he has time to Z" etc etc.

I find this data to be interesting and useful. If you think it is skewed I implore you to create a different one. I look forward to the results there too.

I can accept leaving out group buffs because everyone gets them, but personal buffs are core to a lot of classes. A level 10 cleric has access to Divine Favor, Righteous Might, both of their domain abilities, and all of their domain spells, but under the arbitrary requirements of this scenario, it is ALWAYS a better idea to give up all your domain spells and abilities for the holy warrior option on a cleric. +3 BAB from the holy warrior option is going to win every time when the class isn't allowed to use their domain spells or abilities. This leads to a skewed perception of what the best way to min/max a cleric is.

It also skews the perception of cleric archer vs. melee builds. My napkin math tells me that Righteous Might is better for melee builds while Divine Favor is better for an archer build. The current rules forces both builds to use DF.

[james maissen]

meatrace wrote:

I don't think they're abitrary. Relatively unbuffed is fair since we're looking for BASELINE not actual numbers. Sure most everyone at those levels is going to have Haste if they want it. Heck in a lot of cases they'll all have Inspire Courage or Heroism. We're trying to get a base number that can easily be modified by such buffs so we can say "in X scenario Y class beats it out because he has time to Z" etc etc.

Well to harp on boots of speed for example its a resource cost that keeps its value starting around this level of play as even if a haste is available the action to cast it might not.

In the case of boots of speed the user can use it as a free action when they get a full round attack without needing the party wizard (et al) spending an action for it.

But builds here will not spend for that, as its 'forbidden' but they will purchase things like +3 weapons that are horribly overpriced in any group that can get CL 12 GMW spells active.

There's a difference here, and its obviously skewing the builds that have been presented. The gear will be distorted, so using them as a baseline doesn't seem as reasonable.

In fact I would even pair off buffs into different categories: day long (8+ hours), decent duration (1-2hours), short (10min), and immediate (1min or less). The last being really only used during combat, while short normally only come into play with control over starting the encounter and mid are worthwhile for dungeon crawls and other active encounters.

Likewise a DPR value losing out a single attack/charge for a positioning seems reasonable as a factor to weigh in. Absence of this favors the TWFers over large single weapons.

-James

[angryscrub]

james maissen wrote:

Well to harp on boots of speed for example its a resource cost that keeps its value starting around this level of play as even if a haste is available the action to cast it might not.

In the case of boots of speed the user can use it as a free action when they get a full round attack without needing the party wizard (et al) spending an action for it....snip...

yes, but all the builds have not only what a +1 to hit gets you, but also what an extra attack is worth. i mean, that's all of what, 10 seconds to figure out what boots of speed would get you?

also, did you look at treantmonk's bard archer tweak in this thread? he specifically mentioned the DPR by the rules, but then also pointed out that with one round of buffing, followed by a round of full attacking, average DPR was basically the same over two rounds. perhaps that's a good model to follow if you think it's not "fair" that you can't buff?

[james maissen]

angryscrub wrote:

yes, but all the builds have not only what a +1 to hit gets you, but also what an extra attack is worth. i mean, that's all of what, 10 seconds to figure out what boots of speed would get you?

also, did you look at treantmonk's bard archer tweak in this thread? he specifically mentioned the DPR by the rules, but then also pointed out that with one round of buffing, followed by a round of full attacking, average DPR was basically the same over two rounds. perhaps that's a good model to follow if you think it's not "fair" that you can't buff?

But how many models in this thread have an extra 12k worth of gear to pay for those boots that they would have otherwise had?

Instead they have +3 weapons (rather than a more plausible +1 holy, etc)..

Its not a question of 'fair' it's a question of modeling. Some of these restrictions are skewing both builds and gear choices, and thus don't serve as reasonable benchmarks for scenarios outside of these restrictions.

Consider the scenario where a PC has a full attack action available against foes, but the arcanist is not able to haste the PC (or perhaps anyone). The likelihood of this is far greater than not being able to get long term/all day buffs.

I do agree that comparing damage after 5 rounds of buffing is not reasonable, or helpful as this is a most unlikely circumstance (baring one combat running over into a 2nd and even then). However the model presented doesn't do this justice and draws the line in strange places.

For example in the OP's first build the rogue doesn't take opportunist because of difficulty in modeling it, but given that a rogue when flanking a reasonably armored opponent is going to trigger his opportunist a majority of the time, it's like discounting his iterative attacks.

Thus it gives bad bench marks and skews expectations based off of them,

James

[A Man In Black]

james maissen wrote:

For example in the OP's first build the rogue doesn't take opportunist because of difficulty in modeling it, but given that a rogue when flanking a reasonably armored opponent is going to trigger his opportunist a majority of the time, it's like discounting his iterative attacks.

The first rogue is going to take Crippling Strike, because it is amazing. A handful of extra HP damage just doesn't outweigh the utility of constant ability damage. Opportunist is easy to model, I'd just say "The extra damage from Opportunist is [X] times the percentage chance each round for another party member to crit. Modeling the latter is beyond the scope of this thread."

Guys, I'm retiring from justifying the limitations of the thread. It's intended to set up a pre-buff baseline, that's all. The limitations are more or less arbitrary gut calls, and once it comes down to two possibilities for a rule, both of which have good arguments behind them, you need to make a call or you can't move on. No thread can perfectly model every game and every situation.

If you really don't think a melee cleric isn't going to use quickened DF, then just do the baseline DPR and also do the DPR with RF, with a caveat about breaking the rules and why you did it. Nobody's going to come to your house and set you on fire.

[meatrace]

A Man In Black wrote:

If you really don't think a melee cleric isn't going to use quickened DF, then just do the baseline DPR and also do the DPR with RF, with a caveat about breaking the rules and why you did it. Nobody's going to come to your house and set you on fire.

OH YES I AM! BURN BABY BURN!

[angryscrub]

A Man In Black wrote:

The first rogue is going to take Crippling Strike, because it is amazing. A handful of extra HP damage just doesn't outweigh the utility of constant ability damage. Opportunist is easy to model, I'd just say "The extra damage from Opportunist is [X] times the percentage chance each round for another party member to crit. Modeling the latter is beyond the scope of this thread."

...snip...

while i agree that crippling strike is better than opportunist, surely opportunist is just the chance that another party member hits an enemy you threaten times your damage on a single attack?

if you're flanking with a fighter for instance, you can pretty much assume you'll get that chance. for a melee focused rogue, i'd say opportunist would definitely be the level 12 rogue talent.

[Scipion del Ferro]

Boomer, elf alchemist 10:

Ability Scores: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
STR: 8 (-1)
DEX: 20 (+5) (+2 race, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (+4 belt)
INT: 24 (+6) (+1 level, +2 race, +6 headband)
WIS: 14 (+2) (+1 level)
CHA: 10 (0)
HP: 68 HP (10d8+20)

Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +14 Will: +7

AC: 24 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 18 (+7 +3 mithral shirt, +5 Dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: bomb +15, 10d6+8 dmg (19-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Alchemy
bomb, 5d6, 16/day
Mutagen
Poison use
Poison immunity
Discovery; frost bomb
Discovery; explosive bomb
Other non-relevant stuff

BAB: +7 CMB: +6 CMD: 21

Feats:
1-Point Blank Shot
3-Grenadier (Non-PF core from PHB II)
5-Weapon Focus (bomb)
7-Far Shot
9-Vital Strike

Skills:
He's awesome at making Alchemical items.
Other stuff, doesn't matter

Gear:
bombs, lots of bombs
18,000 +6 Int helm
20,000 +4 belt dex/con
13,100 +3 mithral shirt
4,000 cloak of resistence
2000 +1 Amulet of Natural Armor
2000 +1 Ring of Protection
2000Handy Haversack
4000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

My first time giving this a shot so please be gentle.

So Alchemist. This is with a feat from PHB II. It's not a huge feat just an extra +1 to hit and damage. If you don't like it one could go for Iron Will or Toughness, but there's nothing else to help your DPR.
Direct Hit DPR - 43
Splash DPR - 18

That's kind of low even with Vital Strike. Not too bad when you're aiming for a touch AC and there's no save and not effected by SR. The frost discovery is in case of those bothersome fire resistant enemies. You could go with acid or shock if you like. Explosive bomb means you can hit your target and splash everything within 10 ft of them. Useful for bombing giants or large groups of foes.

[angryscrub]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

My first time giving this a shot so please be gentle.

So Alchemist. This is with a feat from PHB II. It's not a huge feat just an extra +1 to hit and damage. If you don't like it one could go for Iron Will or Toughness, but there's nothing else to help your DPR.
Direct Hit DPR - 43
Splash DPR - 18

That's kind of low even with Vital Strike. Not too bad when you're aiming for a touch AC and there's no save and not effected by SR. The frost discovery is in case of those bothersome fire resistant enemies. You could go with acid or shock if you like. Explosive bomb means you can hit your target and splash everything within 10 ft of them. Useful for bombing giants or large groups of foes.

how are you getting your headband and belt half price? i have to tell you, based on a build i posted earlier in the thread, most people seem to feel you can't ever actually get anything half price and the item creation feats actually don't do anything. weird i know, but i guarantee people are going to mention it.