I feel like mutagens right now are underwhelming and not that interesting. Each alchemist should have their own different weird forms. I personally, would like a stronger focus on mutagens, but regardless, i feel using evolutions to create a monster form is a good idea. it creates customability and at no cost of page count because there already in the book. At this point, there is no reason not to, and it creates a better justification for the large amount of spacer that the evolution system for the eidolon takes up. Sort of like how the sorcerer was created as an attempt to justify the wizard's use of a large percentage of the PH, except i think that using a similar system would be a good choice even if there was not already one created in the book.
That's an awesome idea!
I was originally hoping that both the Summoner's Eidolon's traits and the Alchemist's elixirs would be similar mechanically to the Tome of Magic's Binder's vestiges, but since they didn't go that way, it makes perfect sense to customize the Alchemist's mutagens using the eidolon's evolution points.
I was totally underwhelmed with the mutagens before...basically just slot-less stat-boosting items. Whoopee, a free Ioun stone, essentially. Adding the Evolution Point system to the mutagen effect would be just the thing to add some spice to the lackluster alchemist.
Huh, that's a really good idea. Could use some tweaking and balancing, but yeah.
I feel like mutagens right now are underwhelming and not that interesting. Each alchemist should have their own different weird forms. I personally, would like a stronger focus on mutagens, but regardless, i feel using evolutions to create a monster form is a good idea. it creates customability and at no cost of page count because there already in the book. At this point, there is no reason not to, and it creates a better justification for the large amount of spacer that the evolution system for the eidolon takes up. Sort of like how the sorcerer was created as an attempt to justify the wizard's use of a large percentage of the PH, except i think that using a similar system would be a good choice even if there was not already one created in the book.
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...I'm torn between overpowered and awesome. I'm leaning towards the former, even at 1/2 per level.
I'm actually gonna set this up as a playtest for this weekend's gaming session. I'll let you all know how it works out...
I'm torn between overpowered and awesome. I'm leaning towards the former, even at 1/2 per level.You could give the hulked-out alchemist 2 evolution points at 10th level and 6 evolution points at 18th level. That would match the aspect and greater aspect abilities that the summoner gets as second-string abilities.
Except this isn't a second string ability for the alchemist, it's one of his 3 core abilities. Just like Big E is one of the summoners 3 core abilities.
Alch, extracts, bombs, mutagen
Sumn, spells, SLA: Summoning, eidelon
The idea might be marginally overpowered if it were, say, a barbarian sucking back a mutagen, but a little alchemist? I doubt it.
Initial mutagen would give you 2 evolution points to play with. Through leveling or discoveries, you increase it by 2 every four levels (4 pts at 6th level, 6 pts at 10th, etc). You abide by all the restrictions on eidolons (with respect to level, shape, and size) and additionally prohibit stuff that just doesn't make sense through alchemy (alignment damage reduction and spell-like abilities).
Level 6 mutagen: Gnome hulk smash! Large size, +8 str, +4 con, +2 nat, 2 claws, -2 dex. Two attacks at +10 for d6+5 damage is hardly going to overshadow his barbarian associate.
Hang on, that'd be 2 size increases for the little guy. Seems sketchy to have to build in patch rules for corner cases like that...
A gnomish druid can turn into a large creature at level 6 as well. Twice a day for 6 hours. Mutagen at 6th level is once a day for 60 minutes. They could always reword the Large and Huge size evolutions to say, "One size category larger then the base form." Making so an Ogre or Giant alchemist would actually benefit from drinking a mutagen instead of shrinking down to medium size.
If you went this route I'd say use the creature who drinks the mutagen as the base form which would usually be bipedal. Using their stats instead of the stats of the eidelon base form. Perhaps giving you a penalty to your mental stats during transformation.
I think it would be best to go with the 1 evolution point every other level. With the ability to change what ability that grants when you brew the mutagen.
On Tuesday you're a little stronger then usual, but on Wednesday you decide to toss in a bit thicker skin.
Another point where this would be rather nice is your enhancement bonuses would stack with your new form.
Like I said, I'm gonna playtest this idea tomorrow (today, actually). I'll make another post, linking here, with the results. What I'm looking at so far, just on paper, is actually fairly balanced, but we shall see...
If this idea was implemented, I'd like to see the evolution points be really limited, and instead add a discovery that gives you an extra 4-5 evolution points and can be taken more than once.
Ok, so my playtest is set up for tomorrow. 2 alchemists, one using the RAW system, taking Mutagen discoveries, and another with 1/2 level Evolution points to play around with.
So what other two classes should I round out the party with? It's not gonna be a full out campaign, just a series of short dungeon crawls...
Edit: Going to be 5 or 6 crawls. Haven't decided if I want to run a 1st level crawl or not. Others will be at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
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Ok, so my playtest is set up for tomorrow. 2 alchemists, one using the RAW system, taking Mutagen discoveries, and another with 1/2 level Evolution points to play around with.
So what other two classes should I round out the party with? It's not gonna be a full out campaign, just a series of short dungeon crawls...
Edit: Going to be 5 or 6 crawls. Haven't decided if I want to run a 1st level crawl or not. Others will be at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
I think you should go with Maeloke's suggestion instead of half per level.
2 points to start then an extra 2 points every 4 levels seems right. Oh and no SLA evolution, that one just doesn't work.
And I'd like to say that this is the most awesome Idea for mutagens ever and actually excite me about the mutagens where the current version bores the snot out of me. Also this way the mutagens dealing Charisma damage is fun and balanced.
And I'd like to say that this is the most awesome Idea for mutagens ever and actually excite me about the mutagens where the current version bores the snot out of me. Also this way the mutagens dealing Charisma damage is fun and balanced.
While I am quite intrigued by this idea, the Charisma damage from mutagens will never be fun and balanced. Major class features should not, under any circumstance, damage the PC, especially not ability damage. Temporary penalties while they're active are fine, but damage is not.
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I think you should go with Maeloke's suggestion instead of half per level.
2 points to start then an extra 2 points every 4 levels seems right. Oh and no SLA evolution, that one just doesn't work.
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So with this it would be 2 at 2nd level and then 4 at 6th, 6 at 10th, 8 at 14th and 10 at 18th. Overall you are getting more with this suggestion than with mine of 1/2 level, which would be 10 at 20th. It should also be mentioned that it should cap out at 20th (or 18th if you go with the other suggestion) just so it doesn't become broken if players go into epic, unless it works out fine, I am not sure about this cause I haven't tested it out at those levels.
As I envisioned it, the best way to do it would be to have a discovery that improved the effects of the mutagen by 2 EP every time you took it. That way you can get pretty impressive results, but it comes at the expense of your other abilities.
I think the basic discovery deal needs work yet, but disregarding that issue, you'd have a maximum EP progression of:
2 at 2nd level
4 at 4th
6 at 8th
8 at 12th
10 at 16th
and a maximum 12 at 20th.
Playtesting will reveal whether 12 is too much. I know it seems like a lot, but... well, why shouldn't it be, at level 20? Alchemist here has neither full spellcasting nor BAB to abuse evolutions with.
Thanks for answering my question. /sarcasm
In all reality, though, if the 1/2 level seems odd, we'll run it again with a different spread. Still trying to figure out what to make the other two characters. Barbarian and Rogue keep springing to mind. Agreement? Disagreement?
This is a fantastic idea!
You could give the hulked-out alchemist 2 evolution points at 10th level and 6 evolution points at 18th level. That would match the aspect and greater aspect abilities that the summoner gets as second-string abilities.
I think the summoner need and increase in personal evolution points as is, and without taking them from the eidolon
My playtest results are up here.
I do like this idea. It allows the alchemist to be more viable/flexible. Very cool.
+1 to this idea.