No one really answered my query... do all or a good number of monsters have Power Attack now? I don't remember them having it too often in 3.5.
Since the fighter's output doesn't seem to scale with a spellcaster's, wouldn't this help to close that gap?Isn't this a problem with giving iterative attacks with steep penalties and calling it a major class feature, rather than a problem with AC?The two were designed together for 3e, and intended so melee classes could try to keep up with area spell damage, but not be so blatant as to be at the same chance to hit as the primary attack--otherwise the fighter's damage per round would double* at level 6, and triple at level 11, and so on.
*not really double, but you know what I mean.
I disagree. I think a damage-dealing spellcaster has about the same damage output as a fighter. I think a Melee character's single-target damage is a good balancing factor even though his multiple-target abilities leave a little to be desired. Caster Area-of-Effect spells are very easily healed by a Cleric with Channel Energy or Mass Cure spells while full attack Fighter damage to one target has to be singled out by a healer.
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No one really answered my query... do all or a good number of monsters have Power Attack now? I don't remember them having it too often in 3.5.
Depends on where in 3.5 you are talking about. The monsters in MM1 tended to not use it, but by MM3 it was built into the stat block of anything that hit really hard.
So the only monsters that use power attack are the ones likely to hit while using it anyway. It's just that having a high AC forces them to either do less damage (by dropping power attack) or do less damage (by missing).
No one really answered my query... do all or a good number of monsters have Power Attack now? I don't remember them having it too often in 3.5.
No, but it only takes one to mash your brains in.
By that token, no class can function after level 5 or so. By removing magic equipment (that a fighter can purchase without a party crafter) you are purposefully handicapping a class for the sole reason of being argumentative. That is no contest, of course the Balor would win against a fighter in mundane gear. Mundane gear isn't meant to carry you past level 5 when monsters start requiring actual enchantments r specific items to overcome DR or other such things.
So, why the heck are you trying to say using magic items is cheating?
This.
Low-level gameplay shouldn't be the same as high-level gameplay.
AC tapers off compared to attack value because you WANT everyone to be able to hit more, especially as they start getting iterative attacks. If AC didn't taper off, the iterative attacks (and attacks from classes without a 1-for-1 BAB) would fail most of the time.
After all, if you scale monster AC vs. fighter attack roll, the best fighter attack should hit 50% of the time, the first fighter iterative would only hit 25% of the time, and the 2nd fighter iterative would only hit on a 20. And at level 10 the cleric and rogue would be 15% worse than the fighter, with an increasing class disparity the higher levels go.
Smart Response.
Iterative attacks, and attacks from groups of baddies are the big reasons to keep armor around. Ultimately I agree that you're better off getting something that gives you some kind of displacement (not only does it layer your defenses, it never gets reduced). I wouldn't say it's worthless by any stretch, but you're going to be better off going with a light or medium armor and stacking it with all kinds of bonuses so you're not quite as clunky as you end up being in heavier armor.
The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.
You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.
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You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.
The reason for this is, until pathfinder the only guideline was no more than half your wealth by level could be spent on one item, if the character had not grown organically. That is to say, if you start at level 15 half your wealth by level could be spent on one item.
Pathfinder broke it down further with a suggestion. However, as has been pointed out these are guidelines, and in no way shape or form hard and fast rules.
I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.
I wonder how common your experience is. In most games I've played, the PCs are able to find someone to craft/purchase pretty much anything they want. I'd think it would be pretty lame to be just sitting on a hoard of items that one couldn't use.
On the original topic, we just finished off Rise of the Runelords. The PCs were 16th level and high ACs were still very relevant.
Displacement, concealment and like effects become more and more worthless as you level, because more and more creatures have tremorsense, blindsight, true seeing, see invisiblity, see through illusion, or similar things.
A high AC, particularly a high Touch AC, never goes out of effectiveness.
A +5 Large Shield of Bashing, set with +5 Defender Spikes, costs approximately the same amount as a +7 weapon, or a +10 shield. If you have SHield Ward, then this item provides you a +8 Touch AC benefit all the time, +13 if you activate defender, and with a Missile Augment Gem, +17 Touch AC against all ranged attacks.
Ac is very, very easy to raise, you only have to focus on it.
==Aelryinth
Define "magic assistance". If you mean "without any external buffs", yes; I've already done that with the archer, thus the "obviously" above.
I'm reasonably certain I can build a fighter that can two-round a balor with any wield style (dual wield, two-handed weapon, archery obviously, and even sword-and-board if it's allowed to use the shield bash type feats), just speaking from damage terms. Obviously melee fighters would have a hard time getting in melee range of such a mobile combatant as a balor.
can you do it without magic assitance?
Batts
so, no magic arms, armour, or other magic equipment?
Batts
By that token, no class can function after level 5 or so. By removing magic equipment (that a fighter can purchase without a party crafter) you are purposefully handicapping a class for the sole reason of being argumentative. That is no contest, of course the Balor would win against a fighter in mundane gear. Mundane gear isn't meant to carry you past level 5 when monsters start requiring actual enchantments r specific items to overcome DR or other such things.
So, why the heck are you trying to say using magic items is cheating?
wind it back man. I never said anything of the sort.
I'm fairly much a minimalist when it comes to magic items. The idea that a hero is no more than the sum of his gear is fairly antitheietical to my gaming style, and I was curious to see what other people do with, and without magic.
I have 3 games running for pathfinder, 2 over fifth level and one close to 5th, and they are functioning well without a full selection of magic gear.
I wasn't being argumentative. I was just checking to see what you had.
Chill
Batts
Oh, man. That's a very bleak outlook. I never thought about it like that. Maybe the best defense is a good offense?Yeah; at high levels in 3.5 it's like rocket launcher tag: win initiative and hit the monsters with save-or-lose spells before they close in and eat everyone. If you're playing at that level, and if the DM is ruthless in playing the monsters, you're better off with more spells than you are with warriors, which is my whole beef with 3.0/3.5/3.PF.
No offense, but you're wrong. It is actually fairly easy to build a martial character with an armor class that is virtually untouchable by 20th level by CR appropriate challenges. Consider a fighter with a +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 mithral armor, +5 shield, and shield focus. Even using elite array stats you can easily see 50+ AC. The average for a 20th level monster, as I recall, is roughly +32 attack.
So no, AC is not eventually irrelevant.
At higher levels displacement and similar concealment effects tend to also become useless, as all your foes have true seeing, detect invisible, blindsight, tremorsense, and similar things that render such effects totally useless.
AC, on the other hand, is never useless.
THe key to AC is simply to follow the guidelines and maximize all the bonuses one by one. That includes, however, bonuses you don't normally max out...namely, Insight, Luck, Sacred, and Morale.
A +1 DISMAL Ring (Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale, And Luck) gives a +5 bonus to AC for about 15K. It gives a +10 bonus to AC for about 50k, the cost of a +5 Deflection Ring. And it gives +15 AC for about 175k.
And, mind you, that's all Touch AC.
Touch AC is typically only found on creatures with low TH rolls, or those rolling single attacks. Ranged Touch Attacks against a Fighter with Shield Ward, Ranged Augmentation Crystal, and Energized Armor are going to fail except on a Nat 20.
Getting a high AC is almost universally useful, since combat is such a big part of the game.
Oh, and BTW. The same effect for AC works for saves. at level 21, if you don't promptly get +20ish to all saves as a matter of course, you just aren't thinking.
===Aelryinth
No. Just no. Actually, hell no. I pray to god no one takes this advice, and I'm agnostic.
Trust me my friend, you're about five years late on the scene here. This is not a good road to go down. As soon as a DM starts allowing things like this, and PCs start using them, you blow the entire system wide open. The fact that you see only a handful of items in all of core that grant bonuses other than enchantment, natural armor, resistance, and deflection should be your first warning, and your first clue, that this is a bad idea. The simple fact is it is fantastically easy to blow AC for any frontline class far beyond what monsters can keep up with at higher levels even without this kind of cheese. With it you are doing something else entirely. The entire game breaks down. CR becomes meaningless.
6 is still a lot, though. Unbuffed and using only core items, a fighter can have 40 AC (Shield Focus and Dodge) as early as level 15.
Consider that a balor has +31 to all his attacks: he has to roll an 9, giving him a 60% chance to hit. If he power attacks, he needs a 15: only 30%.
Even the tarrasque, with his +37, needs a 3... and with +30 BAB he power attacks for 8, which brings that up to 11.
Now, that's a fighter. Other classes don't climb quite as high. But those are also some of the best attack bonuses in the game. I don't think AC ever becomes totally irrelevant, at least if you can use a shield.
Edit: Forgot that tower shields have a max Dex. By RAW, they're made of wood (no mithral) and a fighter's armor training arguably doesn't apply. Stupid, stupid tower shields. Switched to a large shield to avoid controversy. Tarrasque still has a chance to miss, so the example remains valid. :)
Math fail? As noted a few moments ago, it is extremely easy for a sword and board fighter with elite array stats to top 50 AC with core items and one of the cheesy bonus stacking. Take the following.
AC 51, touch 24, flat-footed 43 ; (+14 armor, +7 Dex, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +5 natural, +8 shield)
Equipment +5 holy flaming burst cold iron longsword, +5 heavy steel shield of Bashing, +5 mithral full plate of improved fire resistance, +4 composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +5, belt of physical prowess +6, cloak of resistance +5, dusty rose ioun stone, ring of protection +5, tome of strength +4 (used), tome of dex +4 (used), tome of con +1 (used), winged boots of striding and springing
Oh, man. That's a very bleak outlook. I never thought about it like that. Maybe the best defense is a good offense?Yeah; at high levels in 3.5 it's like rocket launcher tag: win initiative and hit the monsters with save-or-lose spells before they close in and eat everyone. If you're playing at that level, and if the DM is ruthless in playing the monsters, you're better off with more spells than you are with warriors, which is my whole beef with 3.0/3.5/3.PF.No offense, but you're wrong. It is actually fairly easy to build a martial character with an armor class that is virtually untouchable by 20th level by CR appropriate challenges. Consider a fighter with a +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 mithral armor, +5 shield, and shield focus. Even using elite array stats you can easily see 50+ AC. The average for a 20th level monster, as I recall, is roughly +32 attack.
So no, AC is not eventually irrelevant.
How much of your Level 18-20 wealth are you using to get that AC of 50+? That sounds like a character who likely spent most of his money upping his AC.
How much of your Level 18-20 wealth are you using to get that AC of 50+? That sounds like a character who likely spent most of his money upping his AC.Oh, man. That's a very bleak outlook. I never thought about it like that. Maybe the best defense is a good offense?Yeah; at high levels in 3.5 it's like rocket launcher tag: win initiative and hit the monsters with save-or-lose spells before they close in and eat everyone. If you're playing at that level, and if the DM is ruthless in playing the monsters, you're better off with more spells than you are with warriors, which is my whole beef with 3.0/3.5/3.PF.No offense, but you're wrong. It is actually fairly easy to build a martial character with an armor class that is virtually untouchable by 20th level by CR appropriate challenges. Consider a fighter with a +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 mithral armor, +5 shield, and shield focus. Even using elite array stats you can easily see 50+ AC. The average for a 20th level monster, as I recall, is roughly +32 attack.
So no, AC is not eventually irrelevant.
Lets see, 50k Ring, 50k amulet, 36k dex item, 25k shield, 25k armor, 4k ioen stone. So call it less than 200k, which is less half at 18th level, less than a third at 19th, and than 1/4th of his total wealth at 20th level. And two feats. You can afford to shave 2-3 points at each level lower than 20th (so 47 AC at 19, 45 at 18). Cutting those points drastically reduces the total cost, since bonuses scale rapidly. +4 gear costs far less than +5. You can have very competitive AC for roughly 1/4th of your wealth at a given level.
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Displacement, concealment and like effects become more and more worthless as you level, because more and more creatures have tremorsense, blindsight, true seeing, see invisiblity, see through illusion, or similar things.
A high AC, particularly a high Touch AC, never goes out of effectiveness.
A +5 Large Shield of Bashing, set with +5 Defender Spikes, costs approximately the same amount as a +7 weapon, or a +10 shield. If you have SHield Ward, then this item provides you a +8 Touch AC benefit all the time, +13 if you activate defender, and with a Missile Augment Gem, +17 Touch AC against all ranged attacks.
Ac is very, very easy to raise, you only have to focus on it.
==Aelryinth
What is this shield ward you speak of?
As for Defender Spikes, I believe they only work during the rounds you actively use (attack with) the spikes... (i.e. defending was meant for your main, actively wielded weapon I believe, if I remember a complicated overly long thread focused on the matter...)
If you want a character that is hard to hit, your best bet is to have bracers of armor and put everything into dex.
Armor eventually maxes out, slower for fighters, and bracers get you armor type AC. In a game where dex scores are unlimited, a restrictions such as this makes the restricting factor useless.
If you want a character that is hard to hit, your best bet is to have bracers of armor and put everything into dex.
Armor eventually maxes out, slower for fighters, and bracers get you armor type AC. In a game where dex scores are unlimited, a restrictions such as this makes the restricting factor useless.
Dex scores aren't unlimited. The best you can do with core races is 35 (18 +2 racial +6 enhancement +4 levels +5 book), which is a +17 dex mod. A fighter 20 with mithral full plate gets a total of +16 and only needs a 24 dex to do it, so he can allocate resources elsewhere (such as actually being able to do damage).
In a more practical game (which is most games, because optimizing AC is a sucker's bet), few people are going to fill the dex modifier of their armor, let alone have so much dexterity left over that they'd be better off with no armor at all.
I was referring to epic levels, where dex items go even higher, and your dex can increase via an epic feat. While your dex can go higher, the restrictions by armor more of a hindrance.
I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.I wonder how common your experience is. In most games I've played, the PCs are able to find someone to craft/purchase pretty much anything they want. I'd think it would be pretty lame to be just sitting on a hoard of items that one couldn't use.
On the original topic, we just finished off Rise of the Runelords. The PCs were 16th level and high ACs were still very relevant.
I don't ascribe to the "Magic Mart" mindset. I guess its because I started playing a LONGGG time ago when there was no gp value by level chart to work off. I think that crafting is often handled with little to no flavor, where are these mages GETTING all these ingredients? Call me old school but my crafters have to work for it.
I guess I just prefer for Magic Items to be a little more meaningful. I'm not really a monty haul gamer. I tend to give the players what they want, but I never give them free reign to just buy from the book like that.
It's particularly disruptive to an ongoing campaign as well, because while the other characters have grown gradually and maybe diversified their items a little, a new character can come in with items that really blow the power curve.
I don't think its ever useless, but the fact remains that you ARE going to get HIT. It seems that people expect it to work for them 80 or 90 percent of the time and that's just not how it is. The main attack of a monster or boss normally has a high probability to hit, but the AC is still shielding you from a percentage of the damage in the form of iterative/minion attacks.
I don't ascribe to the "Magic Mart" mindset. I guess its because I started playing a LONGGG time ago when there was no gp value by level chart to work off. I think that crafting is often handled with little to no flavor, where are these mages GETTING all these ingredients? Call me old school but my crafters have to work for it.
I guess I just prefer for Magic Items to be a little more meaningful. I'm not really a monty haul gamer. I tend to give the players what they want, but I never give them free reign to just buy from the book like that.
It's particularly disruptive to an ongoing campaign as well, because while the other characters have grown gradually and maybe diversified their items a little, a new character can come in with items that really blow the power curve.
Everything highlighted.....I Love.
+1
Batts
I don't ascribe to the "Magic Mart" mindset. I guess its because I started playing a LONGGG time ago when there was no gp value by level chart to work off. I think that crafting is often handled with little to no flavor, where are these mages GETTING all these ingredients? Call me old school but my crafters have to work for it.
I guess I just prefer for Magic Items to be a little more meaningful. I'm not really a monty haul gamer. I tend to give the players what they want, but I never give them free reign to just buy from the book like that.
It's particularly disruptive to an ongoing campaign as well, because while the other characters have grown gradually and maybe diversified their items a little, a new character can come in with items that really blow the power curve.
Everything highlighted.....I Love.
+1
Batts
Agreed. When I DM I am a pretty controlling DM. My players have essential magic items along with several fluff items, but they will never be decorated like Christmas trees. We've never had crafters in the group. Mainly because they don't have time! I keep my parties busy and on the move. They have limited opportunities to buy and sell minor magic, but I tailor my magic items to what the group uses/needs.
I have played in games where magic items were much more a factor in the power levels of the characters, and the DM even let us buy/create a couple of really powerful items. To me it seemed over the top (we didn't earn them, we bought them) and detracted a bit from the game. I realize that's only my perspective.
But back to the original topic. As others have shown, you can get ridiculously high ACs that make even the most challenging monsters in the game miss you on a regular basis. So, no, AC is not irrelevant.
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I don't ascribe to the "Magic Mart" mindset. I guess its because I started playing a LONGGG time ago when there was no gp value by level chart to work off. I think that crafting is often handled with little to no flavor, where are these mages GETTING all these ingredients? Call me old school but my crafters have to work for it.
I guess I just prefer for Magic Items to be a little more meaningful. I'm not really a monty haul gamer. I tend to give the players what they want, but I never give them free reign to just buy from the book like that.
It's particularly disruptive to an ongoing campaign as well, because while the other characters have grown gradually and maybe diversified their items a little, a new character can come in with items that really blow the power curve.
Everything highlighted.....I Love.
+1
Batts
Agreed. When I DM I am a pretty controlling DM. My players have essential magic items along with several fluff items, but they will never be decorated like Christmas trees. We've never had crafters in the group. Mainly because they don't have time! I keep my parties busy and on the move. They have limited opportunities to buy and sell minor magic, but I tailor my magic items to what the group uses/needs.
I have played in games where magic items were much more a factor in the power levels of the characters, and the DM even let us buy/create a couple of really powerful items. To me it seemed over the top (we didn't earn them, we bought them) and detracted a bit from the game. I realize that's only my perspective.
Same I. I've started playing with the boxed set 25 years ago and I still don't like being able to buy what you want. But that's an endless story. I try to put interesting magic items for my players. But fluff is good also !
I don't think its ever useless, but the fact remains that you ARE going to get HIT. It seems that people expect it to work for them 80 or 90 percent of the time and that's just not how it is. The main attack of a monster or boss normally has a high probability to hit, but the AC is still shielding you from a percentage of the damage in the form of iterative/minion attacks.Except that, as was discussed upthread, most monsters don't HAVE iterative attacks.
Look at the dragon. One that intends to engage in melee (and doesn't really have to until it's used it's spells and breath weapon to set the field to it's tastes) is going to have the following attack routine.
Bite(full) Claw (Full) Claw (Full) Wing (-2) Wing (-2) Tailslap (not sure, but either full or -2)
Pardon me, but I highly doubt that armor class that's designed for iteratives is going to do anything meaningful against that. MAYBE stop a roll of 2-4 on the d20 if your lucky.
I'm sorry to reply with a completely unlogical answer....but... ITS A DRAGON!
Seriously, its one of the biggest, baddest things in the world. Yeah it should probably be hitting a lot (of course the dragon might complain about balance when you start dropping Heal spells to mitigate it all.)
That's a little like saying "The Tarrasque will always hit me so my AC is useless" when it's not. In the majority of situations the AC will help out just fine, just not against the BBEG.
Removed an offensive post.
Removed an offensive post.
Why Mr. Byers, you're a busy guy I'd imagine. Thanks for keeping us straight.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Remember that as soon as clerics / wizards hit 9th/11th level they usually take True Seeing (in my games, anyways) and thus displacement cloaks/spells become useless... and people revert back to AC items over the next levels... (in my games, anyways)
That works fine for the casters but not so well for the fighting types unless the casters are handing them out like candy.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.
Crafting doesn't require ingredients in 3rd Ed and its offspring, including PF. Just money.
It can be fun to play that way, and certainly we did back in 1st & 2nd Ed, but that's not the baseline rule system being argued here.
You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.Crafting doesn't require ingredients in 3rd Ed and its offspring, including PF. Just money.
It can be fun to play that way, and certainly we did back in 1st & 2nd Ed, but that's not the baseline rule system being argued here.
agreed, but even so the ability to craft would need to be balanced out somehow, right? If the wizard has craft : whatever do you really let the fighter give him all of HIS gold too, thereby offsetting the entire gold/level chart? Wouldn't the use of crafting feats render the entire scale pointless in terms of balance?
You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.Crafting doesn't require ingredients in 3rd Ed and its offspring, including PF. Just money.
It can be fun to play that way, and certainly we did back in 1st & 2nd Ed, but that's not the baseline rule system being argued here.
agreed, but even so the ability to craft would need to be balanced out somehow, right? If the wizard has craft : whatever do you really let the fighter give him all of HIS gold too, thereby offsetting the..
The balance is that the crafting feat could have been used for another feat. Crafting the item takes up time*, while buying it only requires money. By the way, fighters can craft magical things also.
*Crafting does break the game unless you allow the players all the time in the world to do whatever they want.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The duelist used to be a potential AC god back before the change to give them armor and take away their AC bonus for ever level of duelist they had when fighting defensively at level 7 and above (level 7 duelist that is).
Since the change I had to move my character to fighter/rogue/monk/duelist to make up for it since I enjoy the ability to fight without armor better.
In any case though, when you choose this style, or even the new duelist, you can stack your AC pretty high since you get an added bonus of your INT going to your AC as well. If you fight defensively you take a -4 to hit (core, if not including outside materials) and gain a +6 to your armor class (+3 from the class, +4 for normally fighting defensively with a high enough acrobatics).
The reason I prefer unarmored besides the coolness factor is that bracers of armor +8 do two things for you 1) Cheap way to get a lot of AC and 2)It also holds up against touch attacks. So basically your touch AC is the same as your normal ac since everything about it is dodge/deflection stuff (though natural armor amulets I'm not sure on right now).
If you pick up the monk path as well you also get the whole Wisdom bonus to AC if you pick up wisdom enhancing items, and the ki pool ability to increase your dodge AC by +4 for a round for a number of rounds depending on your monk level.
I guess long story short is that you CAN make it so armor still matters very much so at least with the duelist class. Plus you have good damage output thanks to precise strike and a high rapier crit range and some nice duelist abilities (like the ability to decrease their ac when you do land that crit) and using one of those lower attacks you have to try and parry a blow. Might not have a great chance of success but if they roll a 5 to hit you and you roll a 17, thats one MORE less blow to land, also granting you a counter attack :D
Hurrayyyy duelists :D
Bracers don't help against touch attacks.
As force effects, they cannot be ignored by incorporeal creatures, which includes incorporeal touch attacks, because incorporeals essentially phase through normal and natural armor, bypassing them. But incorporeal touch is not the same as touch.
Essentially, the armor bonus of mage armor or bracers of armor (or the shield bonus provided by the shield spell) works like the ghost touch armor property.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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agreed, but even so the ability to craft would need to be balanced out somehow, right? If the wizard has craft : whatever do you really let the fighter give him all of HIS gold too, thereby offsetting the...You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.Crafting doesn't require ingredients in 3rd Ed and its offspring, including PF. Just money.
It can be fun to play that way, and certainly we did back in 1st & 2nd Ed, but that's not the baseline rule system being argued here.
That depends on the players, but yeah. Craft (Whatever) Item feats let you make money with gold. It's not restricted to making items for yourself or using your own money. You can take on requests from anybody, PC or NPC. In the rules you can't make any money by doing so, but you can do it as long as you have the time and the dough.
Of course, PCs can make whatever deals they like between themselves. Consider the following:
Fighter wants +5 sword. It'll cost him 50K to buy it.
Cleric can make +5 sword. It'll cost him 25K to make it, and he can only sell it for 25K.
Fighter asks wizard, "Hey dude, can you help a brotha out? Tell you what, I'll pay you 35K to make me a +5 sword. We'll cool our jets here in town for 25 days, you'll pocket an extra 10 grand for your time and trouble, and I'll save 15 large by not having to pay those jerks at the Wizard Guild to do it."
Cleric might tell the fighter to take a hike, he might do it free (as in, just for materials cost), he might dicker for a higher price, or whatever, but hey, he's a PC. He spent a feat slot on Craft Arms & Armor. He meets the prereqs to make the item. The 3rd Edition way is that he can make the item.
Now I'll say that PF made it easier to make items within the party by doing away with xp costs. It's a lot easier to say "hey, it's only money" than it is to willfully set yourself behind the rest of the party in xp by crafting. Sure, the fighter might offer you all materials costs plus 10,000 gp, but who's gonna pay for your 2,000 XP for making that item?
Right. Didn't think so.
Unlike a lot of folks, I never objected to the xp cost for making magic items. I thought it was an excellent psychological brake on PCs just sitting around and crafting items willy-nilly. That said, I had one character who still did it in 3.0 (a paladin/psychic warrior), and even made a few small items for other folks, but it was a significant disincentive.
Unlike a lot of folks, I never objected to the xp cost for making magic items. I thought it was an excellent psychological brake on PCs just sitting around and crafting items willy-nilly. That said, I had one character who still did it in 3.0 (a paladin/psychic warrior), and even made a few small items for other folks, but it was a significant disincentive.
With you all the way! Not only didn't I mind, I even shifted the xp cost to the item's recipient (to explain why any caster would ever make items for anyone else for any reason). That kept the party XP close together, and kept the item crafting under control -- if they really wanted something, they made it, but otherwise no way. In fact, in 3.5 I had PCs pay full xp price for all items they bought or found, and did away with tracking gp altogether. One guy might end up over-itemed and under-xp'ed, and another might end up under-itemed for his level, which I took into account when setting encounter difficulties and xp awards.
I think a lot of people seem to be off the topic. The question isn't really if AC is irrelevant, because you certainly can make it. The real question is is it worth it.
For some builds, AC is everything. Can other builds accept the fact that they will be hit and tank AC? I think that no matter what you need a way to avoid getting hit, and high AC certainly works, but you need to hyperspecialize in it.
As far as organic characters not having more than 1/4 or their gear in armor, I find that to be BS. Most of my characters its the only magic items I care about getting. Armor and saves usually take up about 75% of my magic items throughout character history. That being said, if you don't do that, there are a ton of cool things you can do.
In 3.5 I played a begiler with low AC through lvl 15. I didn't need to twink AC because of mirror image. It was my first buff spell every time. This let me get a whole bunch of useful gear that was non-standard that was a lot of fun.
...agreed, but even so the ability to craft would need to be balanced out somehow, right? If the wizard has craft : whatever do you really let the fighter give him all of HIS gold too,You know this points to something I notice a LOT on message board conversations...people just seem to be going out and buying whatever gear they want by their level gold limit. I can't think of a game I've ever played in where I just let players do that, you know? Yeah sure you can go the crafting route, but good luck finding all those ingredients every time you need them. Normally you're not just sitting with a horde.The guidelines say no more than 25% should be spent on defensive magic items. Tejon's list goes up to around 60 or 70%, IIRC. How is that not way past the budget? I never stated it was a rule. I did state that you're never going to see a level 15 fighter in a serious game with that list of gear, and that a fighter starting a game at level 15 is dramatically exceeding the guidelines. Since the entire Wealth By Level system is only a guideline, it's more than a little dishonest to say that one part of it is as good as law but the rest should be ignored as worthless.Do note that tejon's example is never going to be possible in actual play. The items you find will never be distributed that heavily towards powerful defensive items, at least by that level, and if you start at level 15 he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the 25% wealth by level allowed for defensive magic items. You're also not likely going to have the time and resources for the party wizard to craft everyone half a dozen +5 magic items.Yes, you did.Crafting doesn't require ingredients in 3rd Ed and its offspring, including PF. Just money.
It can be fun to play that way, and certainly we did back in 1st & 2nd Ed, but that's not the baseline rule system being argued here.
Alright, I'm with you 100% as well. I did catch that just about anyone could craft magic whatever now.
So for the sake of gear by level then, we probably shouldn't include the craft magic : whatever feats for discussion.
Unlike a lot of folks, I never objected to the xp cost for making magic items. I thought it was an excellent psychological brake on PCs just sitting around and crafting items willy-nilly. That said, I had one character who still did it in 3.0 (a paladin/psychic warrior), and even made a few small items for other folks, but it was a significant disincentive.
I certainly understood the rationale for it. The designers anticipated there'd be few resources the player would be less willing to part with than XPs. In that sense, it was a good idea.
But I really didn't like the metagame aspects of it or making spells cost XPs either. Delaying advancement to build up some more XPs before you can craft an item or cast an XP-cost spell or risk being suddenly unable to do something you could just a day before because you no longer have the XP buffer? Ugh!
In the end, once PCs in the game I run started taking crafting feats, we found that the really significant limits on crafting were time and money. They didn't find spending the XPs much of a burden at all and were pretty tolerant of different XP totals. They spent a whole winter settled into a town busily making stuff between major adventures.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think a lot of people seem to be off the topic. The question isn't really if AC is irrelevant, because you certainly can make it. The real question is is it worth it.
For some builds, AC is everything. Can other builds accept the fact that they will be hit and tank AC? I think that no matter what you need a way to avoid getting hit, and high AC certainly works, but you need to hyperspecialize in it.
As far as organic characters not having more than 1/4 or their gear in armor, I find that to be BS. Most of my characters its the only magic items I care about getting. Armor and saves usually take up about 75% of my magic items throughout character history. That being said, if you don't do that, there are a ton of cool things you can do.
In 3.5 I played a begiler with low AC through lvl 15. I didn't need to twink AC because of mirror image. It was my first buff spell every time. This let me get a whole bunch of useful gear that was non-standard that was a lot of fun.
My beguiler I ran all the way through STAP was much the same. I bought some cheap AC items and I think my AC ended up around 20-24 by the time we finished the AP at 20th-21st level. I could get missed by the more mook-ish monsters we met, but against any kind of level-credible enemy it was all about avoiding getting targeted. Anything that could see through the various layers of "hide and seek" and could reach me could pretty much hit me any time it wanted to.
That said, it actually took TWO rounds for Demogorgon to kill me when he
"Is AC eventually irrelevant?"
No. AC is almost as relevant at high level as saves (depending on the opponent, AC can be more relevant than saves). It only becomes "irrelevant" when DMs get into an "arms race" mindset where almost all opponents either 1) have such high attack bonuses that they can hit the best AC in a level-appropriate party (usually about an AC of party level + 20-25 in high level play; if the character really focuses on AC, that can get up to about party level + 30) over 50% of the time, 2) have attacks that ignore the majority of AC bonuses (target touch AC, incorporeal attacks, etc.), or 3) have attacks that don't require attack rolls (i.e., many spells and spell-like abilities, gaze attacks, etc.). Effects that grant automatic miss chances tend to have drawbacks (i.e., a corresponding miss chance on your attacks with blink) or are easily negated by other effects (see invisibility/invisibility purge, dispel magic, true seeing, etc.). They are most useful in addition to a good AC.
This is just a variation on the "this aspect of a character sucks if you don't do anything to improve it" argument usually seen with fighters and Will saves. Well, duh...