wellit seems there might have been both vocal theorycrafters and playtest data that was supporting them. I think the paizo crew know enough about the game to be able to dismiss theorycrafting that ends up dipping into hyperbole.
wellit seems there might have been both vocal theorycrafters and playtest data that was supporting them. I think the paizo crew know enough about the game to be able to dismiss theorycrafting that ends up dipping into hyperbole.
What an elegant way of saying we're full of hot air...
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For those concerned with bringing their pet in the majority of towns, you could always ante up and just give the eidolon burrow. The towns people can't complain that a lil 'tremor' is in town. Hrm, now that's an idea, from the tremor movies, make a huge serpentine body with burrow and swallow whole, and then you can even enlarge person it and make it gargantuan. It'll no doubt bring adventures around that you can loot and gear up on.
Or give it the ability to cast invisibility on itself as a SLA. It only costs 3 evolution points to be able to do it 3/day and can be selected at level 4 (assuming you increase its cha to 12 (or spend evolution to increase cha).
As a DM i would even allow the use of disguise self on a biped or quadruped eidolon to make it look like a humanoid or horse, and that can be taken at 2nd for just 1 or 2 evolution points.
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Ran a 5 person playtest last night, and Jason already fixed the biggest problem with the Summoner: too many min/lvl summon monster spells.
Running through Hook Mountain Massacre (the Fort Rannick part), by the time the party was in the actual Fort, the Summoner had pulled 6 or 7 lantern archons. While in the fort, he summoned another 2 or 3, having something like 10 or 11 summons, plus his Eidolon, going at the same time.
His turn was about 15 min long, or so it seemed, and the rest of the party (Oracle, Cavalier, Witch, and Rogue) could have sat out the entire section, without any real change to the combats.
On the ball as always, Jason!
-t
Casting 1round spells is a pain in the ass for every character so heavily focused on summoning. standing ther for 1 full round action open for interruption attacks is plain deadly if you are in a tight spot. The Eidolon can guard you. but still it is very dangerous. but always summoning as a standard action is also quite powerfull (but only if you can summon more than 1 at a time)
i would suggest the following:Rapid spell-like ability [feat]
Preq: spell-like ability with a casting time of 1 round or more
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities with a casting time of 1 round or more, subject to the restrictions below. The creature can use that ability as an rapided spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).(for the effects of rapid spell look it up in Complete divine. most importaintly the casting time of a spell taking 1 round to cast is reduced to 1 standard action
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 1
Special: a Summoner may apply this feat to his summon monster spell-like ability, even if he doesn't have the necessary caster level
reduced duration: 1 or 2 rounds duration is hardly enough for a summoned monster to matter at low levels. here i would suggest applying the extend spell feat for free to the summons. it makes them last long enough to really matter but not so long, that he can tot them from combat to combat or seriously go nova (even 40 rounds last only 1 combat and maybe the time needed to refresh after the fight)
only 1 at a time: really prevens going nova, but also disallows some interesting tactics with your summons.
Also completely restricting a class from novaing will greatly hinder it in those all-or-nothing encounters (usually boss encounters with an EL of up to Level+4) where some degree of nova is actually needed to survive. And after all every class can go nova with...
Thank you for giving the Summoner some Nerf. The changes you recommend are great.
BTW_ why does the summoner get Bardic Knowledge?
The obvious solution to cursed equipment is surely that the Eidolon does not shake off the cursed item, it stays with the beastie and is still there when it returns.
No matter how you handle cursed equipment, it makes the Eidolon the perfect "detect curse" spell.
"We just found these new items... Summoner, give them to your pet and make sure it uses them next combat. When we camp for the night, dismiss it and resummon it tomorrow. If the items aren't 'stuck' on it, then they aren't cursed!"
But this would be a good way to stop the obvious way to get money since cursed items don't detect as such (normally).
"Okay Summoner, we know this sword is cursed because your Eidolon can't get rid of it. Dismiss your Eidolon and carry the sword into town. We'll sell it to a mark, leave town, and then you can resummon your Eidolon. Rinse and repeat as needed."
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No matter how you handle cursed equipment, it makes the Eidolon the perfect "detect curse" spell.
Why not have it stick with the eidolon just like it would with a PC? Given the power of the eidolon, I highly doubt the summoner will just go 'oh well, good thing the eidolon got the cursed item instead of a PC, well now I just won't use it', they'll probably try to get the curse removed just as they would on a PC.
Ran a 5 person playtest last night, and Jason already fixed the biggest problem with the Summoner: too many min/lvl summon monster spells.
Running through Hook Mountain Massacre (the Fort Rannick part), by the time the party was in the actual Fort, the Summoner had pulled 6 or 7 lantern archons. While in the fort, he summoned another 2 or 3, having something like 10 or 11 summons, plus his Eidolon, going at the same time.
His turn was about 15 min long, or so it seemed, and the rest of the party (Oracle, Cavalier, Witch, and Rogue) could have sat out the entire section, without any real change to the combats.
On the ball as always, Jason!
-t
Yeah, while my DM would let that happen if I wanted to do it, I wouldn't. Running a PC and his pet is time consuming enough. Running a PC, his pet, and 11 summoned creatures, no thanks.
Now if the DM would run them all...Anyway, I plan on trying out the summoner tonight, using the updated changes.
Oh, and my DM wouldn't ever let me get away with having her run all my summoned creatures. She has a rule "You summon them, you play them."
Anyone happen to have any handy familiar/animal companion/eidolon sheets?
The obvious solution to cursed equipment is surely that the Eidolon does not shake off the cursed item, it stays with the beastie and is still there when it returns.No matter how you handle cursed equipment, it makes the Eidolon the perfect "detect curse" spell.
"We just found these new items... Summoner, give them to your pet and make sure it uses them next combat. When we camp for the night, dismiss it and resummon it tomorrow. If the items aren't 'stuck' on it, then they aren't cursed!"
But this would be a good way to stop the obvious way to get money since cursed items don't detect as such (normally).
"Okay Summoner, we know this sword is cursed because your Eidolon can't get rid of it. Dismiss your Eidolon and carry the sword into town. We'll sell it to a mark, leave town, and then you can resummon your Eidolon. Rinse and repeat as needed."
I'm glad somebody else pointed this out as well.
I'm glad somebody else pointed this out as well.The obvious solution to cursed equipment is surely that the Eidolon does not shake off the cursed item, it stays with the beastie and is still there when it returns.No matter how you handle cursed equipment, it makes the Eidolon the perfect "detect curse" spell.
"We just found these new items... Summoner, give them to your pet and make sure it uses them next combat. When we camp for the night, dismiss it and resummon it tomorrow. If the items aren't 'stuck' on it, then they aren't cursed!"
But this would be a good way to stop the obvious way to get money since cursed items don't detect as such (normally).
"Okay Summoner, we know this sword is cursed because your Eidolon can't get rid of it. Dismiss your Eidolon and carry the sword into town. We'll sell it to a mark, leave town, and then you can resummon your Eidolon. Rinse and repeat as needed."
Ya know this can be side steps by some type of item bonding. Saying either the cursed item can never be removed or magic items used by the Eidolon , never fiction for anyone else there after, due to some kind of arcane bonding
Really cut back on the try it on the Eidolon first stuff
I'm glad somebody else pointed this out as well.The obvious solution to cursed equipment is surely that the Eidolon does not shake off the cursed item, it stays with the beastie and is still there when it returns.No matter how you handle cursed equipment, it makes the Eidolon the perfect "detect curse" spell.
"We just found these new items... Summoner, give them to your pet and make sure it uses them next combat. When we camp for the night, dismiss it and resummon it tomorrow. If the items aren't 'stuck' on it, then they aren't cursed!"
But this would be a good way to stop the obvious way to get money since cursed items don't detect as such (normally).
"Okay Summoner, we know this sword is cursed because your Eidolon can't get rid of it. Dismiss your Eidolon and carry the sword into town. We'll sell it to a mark, leave town, and then you can resummon your Eidolon. Rinse and repeat as needed."
Ya know this can be side steps by some type of item bonding. Saying either the cursed item can never be removed or magic items used by the Eidolon , never fiction for anyone else there after, due to some kind of arcane bonding
Really cut back on the try it on the Eidolon first stuff
Personally, I would settle it a little differently. A Summoner should attempt to protect their eidolon just like a wizard does their familiar. Any Summoner who lets their eidolon be used as a guinea pig would be on the short end of a long chewing on by their eidolon. Why? Because the eidolon is an aspect of the creature the Summoner made contact with (which means there is an even greater creature not on this plane). You really think that the creature, who is loaning the Summoner their avatar is going to stand for being used as a trap detector, cursed item tester, and whatever else an uncaring master would use it for? Nope, the creature might pay a visit itself, or more than likely take more absolute control of the eidolon during a critical point, and let the Summoner get hurt, remain unprotected, or even attack the Summoner directly if the transgression is great enough - just to remind the Summoner who is really in charge after all, since the eidolon is "on loan."
Any DM who let's the Summoner get away with anything like that isn't really doing their job.
you make a good point. As a DM I am more likely to go that route really. Do something nasty like make them fight for control every step of the way, asking caster level checks every time combat is going on to just keep him under control. Or do something along the lines of it effects both the caster and his Eidolon.
you make a good point. As a DM I am more likely to go that route really. Do something nasty like make them fight for control every step of the way, asking caster level checks every time combat is going on to just keep him under control. Or do something along the lines of it effects both the caster and his Eidolon.
Nice, the special little hidden clause of Life Link - the Summoner doesn't know it can be a two way street. They may be able to channel healing into protecting the eidolon, but likewise if they abuse the eidolon, the eidolon can channel the curse, damage, etc. back to the Summoner who is abusing it's partnership.
Thats how I was thinking it, I mean at higher levels it even states you start sharing a soul. I might even allow a badly abused Eidolon to start "takeing "HP from his caster. just moving outside 100 feet, dropping to half HP and draining his "master" till he is free
Except where does it say the Eidolon has free will and isn't just entirely your slave like most summoned monsters are? I'd imagine a great many evil summoners would "abuse" their eidolon, if only as flavor.
Thats where GM's come in. Eidolon is very open. It even leaves where it comes from out of it. If you think players are abusing something take in game steps to stop it.
You share a soul, a wizard can not abuse his familiar. And your mush closer then just a familiar. If you have a cohort and treat them as test dummys they wont stay friendly. The Eidolon may be bound to you, but it is not a construct and has a will of it's own. You can only kick a dog so much before it becomes useless or turns on you
Except where does it say the Eidolon has free will and isn't just entirely your slave like most summoned monsters are? I'd imagine a great many evil summoners would "abuse" their eidolon, if only as flavor.
I agree, eidolons don't have free will, they are an aspect of a greater creature, who serve the summoner because it is in line with what the real creature wants. The eidolon serves the summoner because the creature who's aspect was borrowed allows it, not because the summoner is greater than the creature.
As the old saying goes - evil begets evil. On that very idea, an evil summoner is going to search out something powerful to snag as their whipping boy. Because, well, that's what evil does.
What's powerful, lives on another plane, and likes duping evil summoners who think they are in charge?
That's right kiddies, demons and devils. And not scrubs like vrocks and ice devils (no offense King of Vrock), but bad ones, with names, with stats listed somewhere that are scary, like Asmodeus.
Let the evil summoner think he's in charge - he is at times actively spreading an evil agenda in line with whomever loaned them their avatar. However, while the master may let the summoner get away with using the eidolon as an impromptu trap and curse detector, eventually the summoner is going to do something that could disrupt the master's plans. What happens then? The real master puts the puppet back on the strings in a dramatic way.
Waking up to find that your eidolon has sabotaged a few things, like, lead a party of angry, hungry trolls right back to your camp and no longer wishes to fight, thereby getting itself sent on a little vacation until tomorrow. Or that the damage, pain, and suffering the summoner causes the eidolon are occurring to the summoner instead, with a warning of "Get in line with the program, or you'll be paying me a personal visit real soon."
Anything with the power to generate and loan on a permanent basis an avatar has enough juice to slap a puny summoner back in line, and let them know not to damage the goods too much, at least on purpose.
(On there being appropriate IC consequences for mistreating your eidolon)I agree. I still think it's more straightforward to just let cursed items stick with the eidolon. If it _still_ gets used as a guinea pig even then, there should definately be consequences too.
All items should just stick with the eidolon.
Let's pretend you have to dismiss them somewhere - in combat, on a cliff - all their magic items just go falling down when they go?
When you summon them you have to spend a bunch of time gearing them up?
I'm not sure why the gear wouldn't just come and go with them. Here's my solution: a 1 point evolution for each magic item slot you put on them. "Magic item graft," call it. It lets the item work, and then it's "part of them" and can come and go with them. Adds convenience, and also imparts a cost to ladling them up with magic.
I'm not sure why the gear wouldn't just come and go with them. Here's my solution: a 1 point evolution for each magic item slot you put on them. "Magic item graft," call it. It lets the item work, and then it's "part of them" and can come and go with them. Adds convenience, and also imparts a cost to ladling them up with magic.
I like the idea of having to buy magic item slots for your Eidolon...the equipment probably should just stay on them as well, it's just easier to rationalize, and creates less gray areas.
On a side note...as I build my summoner NPC, I notice that the Eidolon by itself is about CR appropriate, and once I add the Summoner, I am tempted to raise the CR by 1. I think the Eidolon is riding right on this edge, It's not insanely too powerful, yet scaling it back a little would balance alot better.
I also want to mention that SM-SLA should remain 1min per level/standard action, but keep the one active at a time.
Also, maybe instead of the Eidolon being such a potential skill monkey, cut his skills, and give more to the summoner...Because if you really wanted a degree of sociability with this class, you have to have your pet do all the talking, which is kinda weird...Even if you try to make a presentable Eidolon, once you start adding tentacles and stuff...yeah.
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You know, I just had a minor epiphany.
Even if the summoner isn't the master of utility summons, they're still something I want to play:
I like doing melee combat, but I also like being the guy with the spells. Normally I resolve this by playing some sort of gish, trying to fulfill the utility caster/blaster and fighter roles. But the Summoner gives it to me as two separate creatures. Sure the summoner isn't as much of a caster as a wizard, but he's very good in his area of expertise... And if he really needs to do something else, that's what scrolls and UMD are for.
Still think their summons need a duration boost at low levels though, at the very least a +2 or +3 to CL for the summon SLA and spells. It might also be nice if they can use their SLA (and possibly summon spells) as a standard action but the creature doesn't show up until the next round, this prevents them from having a small army ready if they win initiative and get a surprise round, but also prevents them from getting pincushioned by archers and having their summon interrupted.
Long-duration summons are still cool, but not the only thing that makes the class interesting. Still think feats or optional class features to support people who want to play up one aspect of the summoner would be cool.
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I'm not sure why the gear wouldn't just come and go with them. Here's my solution: a 1 point evolution for each magic item slot you put on them. "Magic item graft," call it. It lets the item work, and then it's "part of them" and can come and go with them. Adds convenience, and also imparts a cost to ladling them up with magic.I like the idea of having to buy magic item slots for your Eidolon...the equipment probably should just stay on them as well, it's just easier to rationalize, and creates less gray areas.
That could solve a lot of problems. If 1 per item is too low, it could go 1,2,3,4 and a maximum of 4 items.
Hmmm.... Noted that one down for a possible future houserule.
I don't understand the need for anything regarding special rules for equipping eidolons (aside from what happens to the equipment). If the summoner wants to spend its gold on gear for the eidolon, that shouldn't be a problem. A druid could spend gold to put gear on its AC (and I'm sure I could give you a viable place for almost any slot that humans get), but there doesn't seem to be a problem with doing that. The high-AC was a problem, yes, but I don't think saying 'no armor' is the best way to handle it (and have already presented numerous options for doing so in this thread).
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As he is a "summoner" who is specialized in "summoning" I would say yes.If you want to further prevent the summoner from flooding the fields with creatures there's one other fix that's easy to implement.
Remove all the Summon Monster spells from the class list. With the class abilites as given are they really needed?
Also he should be able to use spell trigger/completion items of all Summon Monster spells. (Actually as currently written, III, VI, and VIII are missing from his spell list, so he can't use items of those without UMD! Hmm.
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I'm sorry, but the loss to armor is an overreaction to the high AC an Eidolon could achieve(note I said could, not will our even should). At 11th level, my party was going through Rise of the Runelords and or meatshield could on be hit by stone giants on a natural 20. Granted, she was a dwarf, but that only brought their to-hit down to 19 or 18(the +4 racial bonus didn't do too much for her). All before the casters started casting buff spells.
My point? If something that has obvious weak points(banishment, dismissal, summoner) can get the smae kind of AC, what was the problem?
At 11th level, my party was going through Rise of the Runelords and or meatshield could on be hit by stone giants on a natural 20.
Stone giants are only CR 8. They should be easy for a level 11 character. Comparing level 11 tanks to stone giants is like comparing CR 1 tanks to common house cats.
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At 11th level, my party was going through Rise of the Runelords and or meatshield could on be hit by stone giants on a natural 20.Stone giants are only CR 8. They should be easy for a level 11 character. Comparing level 11 tanks to stone giants is like comparing CR 1 tanks to common house cats.
My Dm for that game made encounters anything but easy.
My Dm for that game made encounters anything but easy.At 11th level, my party was going through Rise of the Runelords and or meatshield could on be hit by stone giants on a natural 20.Stone giants are only CR 8. They should be easy for a level 11 character. Comparing level 11 tanks to stone giants is like comparing CR 1 tanks to common house cats.
What's that got to do with comparing the AC of a character optimized for defense against a monster considerably weaker than he is, and drawing conclusions about a completely different second class based on that comparison?
Actually as currently written, III, VI, and VIII are missing from his spell list, so he can't use items of those without UMD! Hmm.
Good catch, those should defineitely be added, if only for scroll/wand access even if people never learn them.
I'm sorry, but the loss to armor is an overreaction to the high AC an Eidolon could achieve(note I said could, not will our even should)...
If you read what Jason actually wrote when this playtest change was introduced, this isn't anything like a permanent design decision: it's just the simplest way to take this one particular issue out of contention so the rest of the class can be playtested independent of it. He doesn't seem committed to this particular approach, it's just the most convenient temporary measure. ...Calma, Buey...
Have an evolution that allows the eidolon to give its summoner additional uses of the summoning SLA. (As a summoned monster, an eidolon can't use summoning spells by taking the spell-like ability evolution, so a new evolution would be needed for this.)
But IS the Eidolon a Summoned Monster? I don't think so, it's just a unique manifestation via the Class Ability: It's not a pre-existing monster "summoned" from it's bucolic planar existence, IT ONLY EXISTS as part of the Summoner's Class Ability, i.e. it is CREATED (from extra-planar forces, etc) more so than "Summoned". So I don't see a problem with adding Summon SLAs to the Eidolon. (I'm aware there's plenty of wording currently saying 'you summon the Eidolon', etc, but I think it ISN'T the exact same type of summoning in play, given the flavor background, so adding Summon SLAs to the Eidlon needn't follow the same rules for Summon SLAs...???)
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QUOTE]If you read what Jason actually wrote when this playtest change was introduced, this isn't anything like a permanent design decision: it's just the simplest way to take this one particular issue out of contention so the rest of the class can be playtested independent of it. He doesn't seem committed to this particular approach, it's just the most convenient temporary measure. ...Calma, Buey...
I did read it. I even said I liked it. That does not stop it from being a temporary change caused by an overreaction.
Here's something that doesn't make sense to me either.
Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. *snip* Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield.
So, even though the arms of an Eidolon shift with the rest of their form, they can still use a shield?
(I'm aware there's plenty of wording currently saying 'you summon the Eidolon', etc, but I think it ISN'T the exact same type of summoning in play, given the flavor background, so adding Summon SLAs to the Eidlon needn't follow the same rules for Summon SLAs...???)
But IS the Eidolon a Summoned Monster?
According to the class description, yes:
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."
Sure, but like I said, their flavor seems hugely different than normal Summoned creatures. "treated as summoned creatures" seems pretty consistent with that difference to me (it's just an issue of how are they treated 100% like summoned creatures, and how do they diverge - since this design is open to revision, it seems a possibility to allow the Summoning SLAs you mention)
I did read it. I even said I liked it. That does not stop it from being a temporary change caused by an overreaction.
You don't see the value of constraining an experiment to looking at variables independently?
So, even though the arms of an Eidolon shift with the rest of their form, they can still use a shield?
This is obviously just a fluff justification for the temporary rules experiment of banning armor... Honestly, Jason should have just not bothered with any fluff explanation, and said "this is a synthetic rules modification for playtesting purposes, to allow other aspects to be assessed independent of this armor variable." and left it at that.
Eidolons make waaaaayyyyy more sense as Summoned creatures than Called ones (the alternative).
I feel like the nerf to the summon monster X SLA is overboard. It smacks of the senseless and imbalanced nerf to Astral Constructs for the psion class. This nerf makes no sense in context of the wizard, cleric, and ESPECIALLY druid, all of whom can still spam as many SM-Xs onto the field of battle as they want, so I feel like the summoner should have the same capability, only better.
Take, for example, the Dread Necromancer class. That class can have as many skeletal beasts as it wants on the field, decked out in as much magical swag as you can put on 'em.
So I see this as kind of a knee-jerk reaction to people noticing what lots of summons on the field can do, here. Remember that AoE spells and AoE save or sucks can be just as deadly as multiple summons, if not more so.
Now the changes to the Eidolon, those were utterly justified, so go nuts.
As for the summoning bit, that ability was a bit overwhelming as written and used in certain manners. This scales it back to the basics. I might move it back up, but for now, I need some base line feedback on the class without this sort of inflation.
I do still think this will be underpowered with both aspects of summoning being hurt, but I will be playing this way with my summoner from now on. I definitely see your reasoning behind wanting to see a "base line."
Thumbs up for Eidolon change. As for summon monster SLA,full round casting time, min/level duration and only one SLA active at one time seems good enough.