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Copyright law in the UK is draconian and much stronger than in the US. The US copyright laws are more or less the Berne Convention, while the UK adds a ton of extra protections and blocks some normally-allowed exceptions. It's cliche to describe Americans as litigious, I know, but it's not because US laws are more strict.Yet another reason to move the Paizo HQ to Europe !
Claimant "Your tentacled monsters violate our IP, we demand 3 million USD !"
US Court: "Fine, defendant please pay up !"
any EU Court: "whiskey tango foxtrot ?"
*sigh* yeah, I always forget that the funny island and it's even more funny legal system is a part of the big E.
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*sigh* yeah, I always forget that the funny island and it's even more funny legal system is a part of the big E.
Copyright law in the UK is draconian and much stronger than in the US. The US copyright laws are more or less the Berne Convention, while the UK adds a ton of extra protections and blocks some normally-allowed exceptions. It's cliche to describe Americans as litigious, I know, but it's not because US laws are more strict.Yet another reason to move the Paizo HQ to Europe !
Claimant "Your tentacled monsters violate our IP, we demand 3 million USD !"
US Court: "Fine, defendant please pay up !"
any EU Court: "whiskey tango foxtrot ?"
What's even more funnier is taking a civil procedure class taught by a brit, the prof during the lectures alway had interesting comments between UK laws and US laws.
Do not convert their Improved Grab to PF grab for flavor reasons.
Why not? There are exactly two differences between PF Grab and 3.5 Improved Grab:
PF Grab provides +4 to Grapple checks, unlike 3.5 Improved Grab.
3.5 Improved Grab pulls the grabbed character into the monster's space, unlike PF Grab.Everything else is word-for-word the same, and I think the +4 bonus is worth more :)
PF grab only works on smaller creatures, so unless you want mind flayers to dine exclusively on goblins, halflings, and gnomes....
Which is exactly what 3.5 Improved Grab does, too. It also only works on smaller creatures. So, again, exactly the same.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab
Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.
People who are badmouthing Grab never played Improved Grab correctly, it seems.
One of my fellow gamers in my group plays a Sorcerer/Blood Mage with the Mind Flayer Template, because he is high level and "old" his natural size is Large, so he could successfully Improved Grab (3.5) and "feed" on medium sized targets.
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And afterall, "the opinions expressed in these Threads do not necessarily represent the opinions of Paizo."
Hasbro can afford to throw money at lawyers to harass Paizo. Paizo then has less money to afford the masterwork manacles that keep their interns hard at work making us pretty things. Also, I hear they like food, and rooves over their heads, and silly stuff like that.
If you want to hurt Paizo (and make the anti-Paizo crowd who will happily point out those sorts of threads as 'proof' that Paizo is just 'a bunch of ingrates ripping off WotC and wouldn't even exist without them'), that sort of thing is a great way to start.
Make whatever you want for your home game. 'Wizards' that use wands, speak fake Latin and go to a wizarding school. A race of snake-men that have castes of more or less snake-like members, some able to infiltrate human society, that call themselves the Sneeze-Ti. Magelocks that have unlimited use of Arcane Blasts and use an assortment of Spell-like abilities instead of spells. Sentient golem-men made in Battleforges as disposable soldiers. Acid-blooded wall-crawling xenomorphs that burst out of people's chests and grow into killing machines. Outsiders that come to Golarion to hunt sentient life, using magical powers to cloak themselves and see heat signatures and collect skulls of exciting kills as trophies.
Just don't post it online, where 100,000 people, some of whom might be real jerks and try to use to cause you or Paizo trouble, can see it.
And for the love of [Generic NG Sun God with Good, Healing, Strength and Sun Domains with Favored Weapon mace] don't post any Rifts conversions! :/
IMO, it's more interesting to find a way to capture what makes a species (class, spell, item, whatever) cool, and incorporate it with a Golarion flavor.
Instead of making a straight Beholder clone, take whatever aspects of the Eye Tyrants interest you and incorporate them into a Golarion specific, but radically different creature like so;
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Called forth by the cults of Groteus on moonless nights, Oblivion’s Eye is regarded as the herald of annihilation, and precious and unique items are brought before the Eye to be sacrificed to oblivion. Living sacrifices are also made annually, and each must be a singular individual, the best or brightest or most beautiful person of their sort in the land, with master craftsmen famous for unique skills, and talented vocalists renowned for their ethereal voices sought out to be kidnapped and sacrificed to Oblivion’s Eye on these nights.
Oblivion’s Eye
CR XX
XP XX
NE Medium Aberration
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0
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DEFENSE_______________________________________
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15 (+5 natural)
hp 68 (8d8+32)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +9
DR 10/magic; partial incorporeality; Immune mind-affecting effects
_______________________________________________
OFFENSE________________________________________
Speed fly 20 ft. (perfect)
Melee none
Special Attacks gaze of dissolution, cry from beyond, aura of corruption, lashing tendril, instinctive counterspell
________________________________________________
STATISTICS______________________________________
Str 11, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 15
Base Atk +6; CMB +6, CMD 10
Feats Improved Initiative (B), 3
Gear none
______________________________________________
ECOLOGY_______________________________________
Environment any
Organization any
Treasure none
Oblivion’s Eye manifests as a meter and a half diameter grey-white eyeball, with a violet iris mixed with orange patterns reminiscent of an aura of flames radiating out from the jet black pupil.
Gaze of Dissolution: As a standard action, the creature can cause it’s dark pupil to bulge inwards and rupture, unleashing a cold wind that carries tiny black motes of swarming darkness that swarm around like insects, striking a single target within 60 ft. as a disintegrate spell at CL 8. The swarming black motes dance around the subject and then are sucked back into the iris of Oblivion’s Eye. Once it has unleashed this attack, it must wait 1d4 rounds before it can repeat this action.
Cry from Beyond: As a standard action it can pulse unnaturally, its entire surface strumming and vibrating sickeningly, producing a throbbing sound that functions as a shout spell, also at CL 8.
Instinctive Counterspell: As a free action, once per round, it can cast greater dispel magic at CL 8, and it can use this ability to counterspell an incoming hostile effect, even if it has not delayed to take the counterspell action. As it can only perform this action once in a round, multiple spells can overwhelm this instinctive defense. If it counters a spell of less than 3rd level, Oblivion’s Eye can choose to turn the spell back upon its caster, as if Oblivion’s Eye had cast the spell in question, for determining range and effect.
Aura of Corruption: The unnatural aura that surrounds Oblivion’s Eye causes all natural animals to immediately flee, if it approaches within 30 ft. of them, and any creature that remains within its presence at the end of a round takes damage. Those ending their turn within 30 ft. suffer 1d6 damage, those within 20 ft. suffer 1d3 damage and those within 21 to 30 ft. suffer a single point of damage. Even if a living creature leaves the area, the damage recurs thereafter as bleed damage unless treated, as the toxic exposure to Oblivion’s Eye continues to rot the afflicted creature from within. Unliving creatures, and unattended objects, suffer the initial damage, and additional damage for each additional round spent in the presence of the Eye, but do not suffer any form of bleed damage. This damage bypasses any form of energy resistance, damage reduction or object hardness, and Oblivion’s Eye can slowly bore through stone using just this aura, without resorting to its shout or disintegrate spell-like abilities.
Lashing Tendril: Behind Oblivion’s Eye, a lashing grey tendril whips around furiously, as if propelling the eye with its frenzied flagellations. Anyone standing in the square directly behind the Eye is struck this tendril, which inflicts 2d6 slashing damage that ignores hardness and damage reduction of all sorts. Oblivion’s Eye never uses this tendril as a deliberate attack, but it automatically strikes any who enter the square directly behind the creatures facing.
Oblivion’s Eye is not made of earthly material, and is treated as being ‘partially incorporeal,’ so that any physical attack has a 20% chance of failing to harm it, including weapon attacks (whether from magical weapons or mundane ones), acid, boulders, the natural weapons of monsters or other physically damaging effects, such as falling hail or the rubble from an avalanche. Energy effects, whether force, fire, electricity or cold, affect the creature normally, although Oblivion’s Eye has Cold Resistance 10 and Electricity Resistance 10.
***************************************************
Obviously, I picked 'floating man-sized eyeball that does horrible magical things to you' as my base point here. The creature is a singular aspect of an 'Old God' called up for ritual sacrifices, not a race of aberrations, but has the same basic form and function.
If I instead wanted a race that aped the basic personality and nature of the beholders, I could instead have made a humanoid race with innate sorcerous abilities that stored spells in glyphs painted upon their skin. Same powers as a Beholder, more or less, but a radically different form. I could even have differing 'tribes' of these humanoids hate each other with a great passion, perhaps looking identical to outside viewers (unlike the warring racist Beholder factions), and only being remarkable in that they use different glyph-languages, and consider their own personal language to be the true 'words of creation,' and all different magical glyph-tattooed membered of their species to be defilers and corrupters of the pure language primeval or whatever. In this case, they would have similar powers, personalities and societies to Beholders, but look nothing like them, being just tattoed humanoids, to the naked eye.
This sort of thing, IMO, is more interesting than just making a straight conversion of a floating aberration that shoots 10 specific spells at you from its ten eyestalks.
As has been pointed out before, WotC has been more than generous with the amount of monsters that are already Open Content. There's no reason to abuse that by poaching the ones they've set aside for their own use.
Do not convert their Improved Grab to PF grab for flavor reasons.
Why not? There are exactly two differences between PF Grab and 3.5 Improved Grab:
PF Grab provides +4 to Grapple checks, unlike 3.5 Improved Grab.
3.5 Improved Grab pulls the grabbed character into the monster's space, unlike PF Grab.Everything else is word-for-word the same, and I think the +4 bonus is worth more :)
PF grab only works on smaller creatures, so unless you want mind flayers to dine exclusively on goblins, halflings, and gnomes....
Which is exactly what 3.5 Improved Grab does, too. It also only works on smaller creatures. So, again, exactly the same.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab
Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.People who are badmouthing Grab never played Improved Grab correctly, it seems.
Note the "Unless otherwise noted" in both descriptions. You can always note otherwise for individual monsters with these abilities, both in 3.5 and in Pathfinder.
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...Oblivion's Eye...
Awesome. :D
Lashing Tendril: Behind Oblivion’s Eye, a lashing grey tendril whips around furiously, as if propelling the eye with its frenzied flagellations. Anyone standing in the square directly behind the Eye is struck this tendril, which inflicts 2d6 slashing damage that ignores hardness and damage reduction of all sorts. Oblivion’s Eye never uses this tendril as a deliberate attack, but it automatically strikes any who enter the square directly behind the creatures facing.
Facing! Ahhhh!
LOL this thread is funny.
I have a vision of the Paizo headquarters being moved to a ship in international waters to avoid copywright laws.
Why?
So they could give the Mind Flayer an extra feat...officially
Nice.
As for this:
We could always ask if they mind. Has anyone asked? Maybe they'll be cool about it. They're just people, like us.
I believe this is true of WotC
However, I think Gleemax is run by a giant brain. I'm pretty sure they flaunt that.
As for Hasbro - well, they of course are run by the general corporate mind-think that any sufficiently huge public coorporation is run by.
Um, okay? Mind flayers have non-standard Improved Grab, and I'm saying to keep that instead of standardizing it.
Fair enough; I misunderstood you and stand corrected.
My current frustration with this is trying to get any response at all from Wizards. I'm trying to figure out if I can recreate a number of the cleric Domains found in their accessory books to follow Pathfinder rules. I've sent 3 certified letters to their law group (which is where I was directed by their customer service) and they haven't even deemed me worthy of a response. I want to publish these new Domains but I refuse to do it without making sure that I can. I'm not willing to put my personal finances and such on the line for that (I'm obviously a very small publisher.. :) ) I just wish I could get some sort of response of direction from them. If anyone has had any success with this please tell me how you did it, as I am currently running into a thick stone wall.
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Truly awesome - and possibly premature if there is a 'design a monster' round this year :)
Thanks! And yeah, I thought for a tenth of a second about that, and decided that I wasn't going to be paralyzed into not being able to post any of the half-dozen things I post every week or so just because I want to 'save it' for a contest.
Plus, I'd never submit a faux Beholder as an original monster idea anyway. :)
My current frustration with this is trying to get any response at all from Wizards. I'm trying to figure out if I can recreate a number of the cleric Domains found in their accessory books to follow Pathfinder rules. I've sent 3 certified letters to their law group (which is where I was directed by their customer service) and they haven't even deemed me worthy of a response. I want to publish these new Domains but I refuse to do it without making sure that I can. I'm not willing to put my personal finances and such on the line for that (I'm obviously a very small publisher.. :) ) I just wish I could get some sort of response of direction from them. If anyone has had any success with this please tell me how you did it, as I am currently running into a thick stone wall.
As a part of a large corporation that is (justifiably) very protective of its IP, they will be extremely reluctant to provide you with legal advice regarding their IP. You should not be contacting their law department on this. You should speak, personally, to a lawyer. Not one of theirs. Just a lawyer familiar with IP law, and who can determine exactly what WotC can and cannot legally bar you from doing with their game system, and who can advise you on whether it's worth pursuing the path you want to take.
Instead of making a straight Beholder clone, take whatever aspects of the Eye Tyrants interest you and incorporate them into a Golarion specific, but radically different creature like so;...
With just the Gaze of Dissolution, you've made something that's about 4.6 times cooler than any beholder. (I'm using the Hyneman Beard scale. The ratio may not apply to the metric Jean Reno scale, but the absolute value will be higher in both cases.)
They're only popular because they're so damn popular.
Thanks, Gruevy. I think I've found my mantra for the week.
You look new to me, so welcome to the boards, Gruevy!
Because that would look the same from the outside if we contacted someone secretly and said, "Here's our version of the mind flayer we build in house for use in our home games, go ahead and post this on our boards for everyone else to use but don't reveal we did it."
Is what I don't understand, and this was hinted at in the post you replied to, is many players consider Pathfinder to be the "Real D&D", and I'm sure that's stomping on trademarks a heck of a lot more than mindflayers and beholders.
Is what I don't understand, and this was hinted at in the post you replied to, is many players consider Pathfinder to be the "Real D&D", and I'm sure that's stomping on trademarks a heck of a lot more than mindflayers and beholders.
Nowhere does Pathfinder ever use the actual name 'Dungeons and Dragons'. It does run off the Open Gaming License that defined the 3rd Edition mechanics of that game. What fans think is irrelavent to legal standing. The OGL is open in perpetuity (Thank Odin), thus, Pathfinder can use and expand on that open content material.
I personally have shifted away from calling Pathfinder anything but ... well Pathfinder. It's NOT 'real' D&D, 3.75, 3.P or any of those other asinine names. It is Pathfinder, or PF if you need to shorten it. It will continue to evolve on its own now that it has branched off from the original product.
I loved D&D for almost 30 years. While I am sad that I came to a parting of the ways with the company that holds the IP rights to D&D, I am happy that the game I love is still viable thanks to the efforts of some excellent game designers. And as old Billy S. once said:
'What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'
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Because that would look the same from the outside if we contacted someone secretly and said, "Here's our version of the mind flayer we build in house for use in our home games, go ahead and post this on our boards for everyone else to use but don't reveal we did it."Is what I don't understand, and this was hinted at in the post you replied to, is many players consider Pathfinder to be the "Real D&D", and I'm sure that's stomping on trademarks a heck of a lot more than mindflayers and beholders.
Paizo can't use the name "D&D" in any of their products. The usual catchphrase used is "the world's oldest role-playing game".
However, the player base is free to use whatever name they fancy :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Nowhere does Pathfinder ever use the actual name 'Dungeons and Dragons'. It does run off the Open Gaming License that defined the 3rd Edition mechanics of that game. What fans think is irrelavent to legal standing. The OGL is open in perpetuity (Thank Odin), thus, Pathfinder can use and expand on that open content material.
I personally have shifted away from calling Pathfinder anything but ... well Pathfinder. It's NOT 'real' D&D, 3.75, 3.P or any of those other asinine names. It is Pathfinder, or PF if you need to shorten it. It will continue to evolve on its own now that it has branched off from the original product.
I loved D&D for almost 30 years. While I am sad that I came to a parting of the ways with the company that holds the IP rights to D&D, I am happy that the game I love is still viable thanks to the efforts of some excellent game designers. And as old Billy S. once said:
'What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'
*nods* I'll +1 this with one addendum.
Because that would look the same from the outside if we contacted someone secretly and said, "Here's our version of the mind flayer we build in house for use in our home games, go ahead and post this on our boards for everyone else to use but don't reveal we did it."Is what I don't understand, and this was hinted at in the post you replied to, is many players consider Pathfinder to be the "Real D&D", and I'm sure that's stomping on trademarks a heck of a lot more than mindflayers and beholders.
What players think and what companies do are legally almost separate universes.
What players think and what companies do are legally almost separate universes.I know a lot of companies that would like to see that changed.
May they find their just reward.
Oblivion's Eye...
That is really great [CTRL+S], especially from the flavor it invokes. I think one of the APs already covered an Eye of the Deep, so I can easily see this as a different branch on the same tree.
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I wasn't gonna jump back in cuz I acquiesce to Jacobs' request not to put a mind flayer, beholder or githyanki on the Boards --
But Mylon is right.
Though I'll still not put a mind flayer (stat block), etc., on the Boards, by now WotC and others know that there is still a very large group of gamers who have never considered the new WotC game D&D. Because, well, because it's not D&D.
We have been vehement (and sometimes offensive) in our assertion that WotC isn't even publishing D&D and that Paizo is. The intellectual "property" is meaningless in my Homebrew and like many players, these Boards are supports (and fillers) for my Homebrew (thus it'd be nice to see other D&D gamers share their conversions for mind flayers, etc.).
Ultimately, I'm not Paizo, just a customer. (of course, as a charter subscriber and 1400+ poster I am a Paizonian ;)
And, not that it matters because Paizo will eat posts of conversions -- but WotC would have burden of proof if they wanted to litigate for Paizo secretely giving a poster "official" stat block conversions of their intelectual "property."
Well, (more than) enough said.
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Oh, and I also agree with everything Gruevy said, too. Great post.
Though I do have many fond memories of these monsters in my campaigns and occasionally want to throw them in again. In addition to new stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that. They're popular because we have great memories, not because they're popular!
Though I'll still not put a mind flayer (stat block), etc., on the Boards, by now WotC and others know that there is still a very large group of gamers who have never considered the new WotC game D&D. Because, well, because it's not D&D.
Really? More of this sort of reactionary attitude?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The material was removed because TSR management was uncomfortable with what they felt was free advertising for the competition; they didn't want something in a TSR book to lead folks to seek out game material from another company.
Which reminds me - nice call out to CoC and Chaosium in Carrion Hill. That was very classy and really made me appreciate once again how much you guys are gamers first and foremost. It really made me proud to be a customer.
In every one of my posts, I've been signing with a nigh-exact replica of the image of the Invisible Stalker from the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium and haven't had any problems yet.
Just look right below this line, and you'll see it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Though I'll still not put a mind flayer (stat block), etc., on the Boards, by now WotC and others know that there is still a very large group of gamers who have never considered the new WotC game D&D. Because, well, because it's not D&D.Really? More of this sort of reactionary attitude?
Damnit people, stop making me agree with Scott.
Pathfinder isn't D&D, It's Pathfinder. And will stand (or fall) on its own two legs.
But tonight we're gonna argue like its two-aught-zero-eight!
Cue Doc's keyboards
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Nowhere does Pathfinder ever use the actual name 'Dungeons and Dragons'.
I personally have shifted away from calling Pathfinder anything but ... well Pathfinder. It's NOT 'real' D&D, 3.75, 3.P or any of those other asinine names.
If you ever called Pathfinder anything other than "D&D" or "Real D&D" in real life near me, I'd correct you.
In short, whatever they (Paizo) call it for the majority of people I know and play games together it is D&D.
Despite being the one and only remaining "D&D", I still agree that Paizo needs to leave Mindflayers/Beholders/etc alone as they are IP of WotC.
If you ever called Pathfinder anything other than "D&D" or "Real D&D" in real life near me, I'd correct you.
And I'd correct you right back. It's not D&D. D&D is what WotC is putting out now. It's their intellectual property. Calling a Toyota a Ford doesn't make it one, even if you used to like Fords and don't want to call your car anything else. Ford was the first company to mass produce cars, that doesn't mean they are the best company. D&D was the first (relatively) mainstream RPG, that doesn't mean it's the best either.
Honestly, this bizarre refusal to give up a name confounds me. Is it nostalgia? I played D&D from 1979 until 2008. Who cares what you call the game you play as long as you have fun playing with it? Is it you are afraid to be in a minority? Face it, you are in a minority even if you play the current iteration of D&D. Table top games have become niche. In fact, they have ALWAYS been niche. What does it matter, except legally, what you call a game?
Go ahead, call Pathfinder 'D&D' if it makes you happy. Heck, call it 'World of Warcraft' or 'Vampire' if it makes you happy. It's still Pathfinder. Don't try to convince me that somehow I'm wrong for calling it Pathfinder or that you have any right to 'correct' me on that point.
Pathfinder is 97% D&D 3e by volume. It's meant to work with 3e supplements. It plays exactly the same way. You do exactly the same things. It's the same game.
Humans are 96% Chimpanzee by volume. It's the differences that define the two, not the similarities ...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Humans are 96% Chimpanzee by volume. It's the differences that define the two, not the similarities ...Pathfinder is 97% D&D 3e by volume. It's meant to work with 3e supplements. It plays exactly the same way. You do exactly the same things. It's the same game.
We're also 80% water. Does that mean that similarities are all wet?
I don't suppose it would help to point out that this is an essentially contested concept, involving picking out identity in a case where there are people operating with different purposes and different criteria that fit those purposes? Philosophically, you can describe the moves people are making, but it is impossible to secure the categories "D&D/~D&D" when purposes and criteria are incompatible.
Analytic Philosophy: Making Minds and Lives Better since the 1950s.
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If you ever called Pathfinder anything other than "D&D" or "Real D&D" in real life near me, I'd correct you.And I'd correct you right back. It's not D&D. D&D is what WotC is putting out now. It's their intellectual property.
I still call Pathfinder D&D when talking to someone outside the hobby. Not because I believe it is the Real D&D but because 99% of the population outside our hobby would wonder why you were going to play a game about a Nissan SUV if you said you were going to play Patfinder. 4E is as much real D&D as 3E was. Honestly I boycotted 3E for years because I felt that it had become something that was not D&D. I was diehard that anything beyond AD&D was a ripoff of GURPS, I mean it didn't even have THAC0. I only switched when Gamma World was released for d20, and then I realized what I had missied out on. I don't play 4E as much as I would like, but that is because my group dosn't like the system. They don't think it's intuative enough. But it is still D&D and Pathfinder is still Pathfinder.
That Oblivion's Eye thing is great. I'll remember it for when I need to "keep an eye" on my players. See what I did there? And saw what I did with the see what I did there? And then noticed what.... nevermind.
As for converting Mind Flayers, converting them from the 3.5 Monster Manual really shouldn't be much of a hassle, not even on the fly (at worst, you'll have to fudge a few rolls here and there to make it fit). Same with the Beholder (which is my favourite D&D creature, by the way) and company. And being so easy, better not to take any risk at anyone complaining about IP infringement.
If you ever called Pathfinder anything other than "D&D" or "Real D&D" in real life near me, I'd correct you.And I'd correct you right back. It's not D&D. D&D is what WotC is putting out now. It's their intellectual property. Calling a Toyota a Ford doesn't make it one, even if you used to like Fords and don't want to call your car anything else. Ford was the first company to mass produce cars, that doesn't mean they are the best company. D&D was the first (relatively) mainstream RPG, that doesn't mean it's the best either.
Honestly, this bizarre refusal to give up a name confounds me. Is it nostalgia? I played D&D from 1979 until 2008. Who cares what you call the game you play as long as you have fun playing with it? Is it you are afraid to be in a minority? Face it, you are in a minority even if you play the current iteration of D&D. Table top games have become niche. In fact, they have ALWAYS been niche. What does it matter, except legally, what you call a game?
Go ahead, call Pathfinder 'D&D' if it makes you happy. Heck, call it 'World of Warcraft' or 'Vampire' if it makes you happy. It's still Pathfinder. Don't try to convince me that somehow I'm wrong for calling it Pathfinder or that you have any right to 'correct' me on that point.
I think calling Pathfinder D&D is perfectly reasonable. There are many ways to play a game of Heroic High Fantasy, but playing D&D is a specific thing within that group. The name implies a series of elements, from sacred cows to the way things are supposed to be interpreted, that make the game something very unique.
My group and I play a lot of different games (currently keeping two other campaigns in parallel, a 7th Sea one and another for Ars Magica 5e). However, we also keep a campaign of D&D going at all times; not Epic Fantasy, not Medieval Cliffhangers, but D&D. A game where you have classes, characters gain levels, there are Alignments, parties are composed of either the standard "Dude With Sword / Dude With Dagger / Dude Who Prays / Dude Who Casts Fireball" or variations of said standard, magic items emit auras, you roll a d20 to determine if you got something right, kill goblins for copper pieces and a long et cetera. And any game that compiles the same elements is, for all purposes, D&D. So while Pathfinder has a name of its own, when you play Pathfinder you are playing D&D.
Saying the contrary would be rather self-defeating. The fact that Pathfinder is D&D is the very reason most of us are playing it in the first place! I didn't want another way of playing a High Fantasy Cliffhanger; I wanted a way to keep playing D&D and still have it supported with new products and a thriving community. And that's exactly what I get with Pathfinder, which is why I love it. I mean, just check the Pathfinder Launch Poster: "3.5 Lives! 3.5 Thrives!". I don't think they are referring to a 3.5 HP fishing boat engine with that.
You can make a pizza square or triangular, but as long as you use the same ingredients, no matter how you call it, it will still be pizza.
You can make a pizza square or triangular, but as long as you use the same ingredients, no matter how you call it, it will still be pizza.
Except that the word pizza is not a trademarked brand name. Dungeons and Dragons is.
You can make a pizza square or triangular, but as long as you use the same ingredients, no matter how you call it, it will still be pizza.Except that the word pizza is not a trademarked brand name. Dungeons and Dragons is.
Actually, in Italy , the law only allows you to sell two types of Neapolitan pizza as actual pizzas: Marinara and Margherita. They have to have the exact same ingredients and shape. Otherwise, it cannot be sold as traditional pizza. So, if you made it octogonal, even though that for all purposes it is the same pizza, you are not allowed to sell it as traditional.
But for a more precise example, think of BigMacs: You can make them at home and have them taste exactly the same, but you cannot sell them as BigMacs. For all purposes, though, they'll still be BigMacs, and if you prepare them is because you want to eat a BigMac.
*sigh*
OK, let me try to convey what I am trying to say here:
*Bullet points*
- I don't care what you call the game, but legally it's 'Pathfinder'. Please don't tell me you are going to 'correct' me, as this implies I am in error.
- I personally feel that clinging to the brand name 'D&D' only pisses off 4E folks needlessly and conveys an image that we are small-minded and need to cling to said acronym like a woobie blankie.
- When explaining it to people who don't play TTRPGs, I say it is based on D&D rules, which is the truth.
- Calling it 'real' D&D is uneccesary flametrolling, and isn't it just about time for the Edition Wars to be penned in the dead book? By calling it 'real' D&D you are implying that 4E is 'fake' D&D.
- I understand that lots of people have a lot of time and effort invested in the brand 'D&D', but it's time to let go. IT IS JUST A NAME.
- Obviously, I am not going to win this fight, too many bad feelings, too many people's identities tied up the brand name. Just don't piss down my back and tell me its raining. Pathfinder isn't the 'real' D&D. It is a game derived from OGL D&D rules. There is a difference, whether you want to see it or not.
Oh and Mairkurion{tm}?
*sigh*
OK, let me try to convey what I am trying to say here:
*Bullet points*
- I don't care what you call the game, but legally it's 'Pathfinder'. Please don't tell me you are going to 'correct' me, as this implies I am in error.
- I personally feel that clinging to the brand name 'D&D' only pisses off 4E folks needlessly and conveys an image that we are small-minded and need to cling to said acronym like a woobie blankie.
- When explaining it to people who don't play TTRPGs, I say it is based on D&D rules, which is the truth.
- Calling it 'real' D&D is uneccesary flametrolling, and isn't it just about time for the Edition Wars to be penned in the dead book? By calling it 'real' D&D you are implying that 4E is 'fake' D&D.
- I understand that lots of people have a lot of time and effort invested in the brand 'D&D', but it's time to let go. IT IS JUST A NAME.
- Obviously, I am not going to win this fight, too many bad feelings, too many people's identities tied up the brand name. Just don't piss down my back and tell me its raining. Pathfinder isn't the 'real' D&D. It is a game derived from OGL D&D rules. There is a difference, whether you want to see it or not.
Oh and Mairkurion{tm}?
** spoiler omitted **
Are you trying to get spanked, monkey boy?